AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Garnith on Sat, Jan 23 2010, 11:28 AM, edited 7 times in total.

As someone who rarely visits the forums, I often find that the only reason I come here is to look up information or lore. And since this generally involves diving through tons and tons of old threads, I figured I'd try and put together a little FAQ on the class that gives me the most headaches, the shifter. (Besides, when the new shifter modifications come out, this could come in handy for the expected flood of new characters.) This is just a few of the questions I've found myself asking about the class in the past, the answers, and the threads in which the original issues were discussed. I figure it'll save anyone having to wade through the pages themselves/not bothering to look and getting in trouble.

1. Can I be a shifter but not a druid?

Yes, it is possible to be a non-druid shifter, but you might want to read the fine-print first. Firstly, you are going to have to take at least 5 druid levels in order to begin leveling as a shifter. As far as I know, there is no way for you to be made a shifter from character creation, unless there is a bit of DM magic that can solve it. And even then, you'll most likely need a large number of DCs for the request. Some of you may consider 5 levels of a class you can't use too harsh a penalty, but choosing to make a "pure" shifter is your own choice. Live with it.

Secondly, you will not be allowed to use any of the spells granted to you by those druid levels. The spells are Divine, meaning granted by a god. As you are not a druid, no god is going to grant you spells. Be aware that you cannot explain off using spells such as Bulls Strength by saying that "My shifter simply shifted his muscles bigger." Its a spell, you can't cast it, go buy some potions instead.
As well as spells, you cannot use any Druid-only gear. Reason being, by your own admission, you're not a druid. If you are a non-druid and use druid spells or druid-only gear, the DMs will eat you.

Finally, if you are not roleplaying the druid levels, I believe that your character must have some other sort of natural shapeshifting ability. (I have a vague memory of lycanthopes and fey being mentioned at some point, but am having trouble finding the post again. )

EDIT: Found it, a post by Tormak. Note that he also mentions druids who have effectively given up on their oaths, which is another possibility for shifter characters, though I believe this has to be both roleplayed within Amia and DM approved. (Something about a fallen Druid widget? Not sure.)

TormakSaber wrote:

There's a bazillion ways, but the main way to do it without a request isd to be a druid that stopped being a druid after you became a shifter. The rest are things like Lycanthropes, Fey, Dopplegangers, etc.

You're still going to require those 5 druid levels though because we're not going to leto Wildshape onto a nondruid character.

To summarize:

WonWon wrote:

Really simple. You have two choices.

A - Use the spells that the NWN Druid Class gives you. you are a druid

B - Use none of the abilities and gear granted to you by the NWN Druid Class. you are not a druid

If you're using the spells and trying to 'justify' them as such without making a request to the DM Team You're doin' it wrong..

Shapeshifters can't "half shift" to get their special abilities. That's what a Geomancer is for.

2. If I'm a shifter, do I have to obey druidic oaths?

As I understand it, shifters do not have to obey the druidic oaths UNLESS they ARE a druid. Meaning, if you are a druid/shifter, then yes, you are bound to your oaths. If you are a "pure" shifter as outlined above, then you are not bound by oath.

3. Undead Shape!?! Surely no druid/shifter would do that!

Giving the ability to shapeshift into an undead to the class that hates them the most was either one of the smartest or dumbest things Bioware implemented in NWN. (Smart: Tons of interesting RP opportunities. Dumb: Confusing as anything.) If you are a druid/shifter, and decide to gain the Undead Shape feat, be aware that this is a form that you LOATHE. You are unlikely to use it unless absolutely necessary. For "pure" shifters however, if its something that your character would do, go ahead and do it.

4. I shifted into an undead and my druid buddies killed me!

Obviously, undead are frowned upon by druids as being against the natural order. As I understand it, shifting into an undead form shows that a shifter has spent a significant amount of time among the undead, and therefore, the shifter may find themselves attracting suspicion from any druids who witness their shift. This, I believe, depends more on a case-by-case basis, as it is up to the other player's character (and their deity of choice) how they will react to you in game. Although you may not have actually died and been transformed into an undead, you still are occupying that form. This would certainly be enough to set many druids on edge. And of course, if no one actually sees you perform the shift, you'll be treated just like a regular undead.

The above also applies for non-druid buddies, with an emphasis on Paladins and good aligned Clerics. Rule of thumb: If they're not going to let a necromancer just wander on past, they're probably not going to like you much if you shift into an undead.

5. I am playing a "pure" shifter and follow (insert typical nature deity here). Can I use the spells from my druid levels?

As I understand it, no. The spells are granted to druids only, not to every follower of that particular deity. You cannot have druid spells AND be oath-free.

Possibly Helpful Threads

On Undead Shape and Druid/Shifters
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21454

On Druid Spells and Gear on Shifters
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30620

On Non-Druid Shifters
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40803

Disclaimer: All of this is simply information I have either pulled from the forums or my own experiences playing. If any of it turns out to be incorrect, just post, and I'll edit it. If there is any doubt, ask a Dm, they're right approximately 93.75% of the time. Incidentally, I am somewhat uncertain if the above is compliant with the official stance of the DM team, so if there has been any official ruling on non-druidic shifters, could someone tell me? Finally, I apologize for my poor spelling and grammar, as usual.

Inb4 huge argument.

Edit: I really need to work on my proofreading. I'm at 6 edits and counting. >.>

*applauds* Good guide.

Also, while this doesn't apply to only shifters but also druid these questions are brought up a lot:

Can I speak while shifted?
The general rule of thumb is, if the shape you are currently in can speak, you can speak, (i.e. no talking dogs, but wyrmlings are fine to speak)

If I'm shifted to a shape that naturally knows a language do I know that language?
Not unless you have studied it yourself. Shifting is a purely physical transformation and gives you no extra knowledge unless you spend the effort to learn it yourself.

I don't remember the post where this was explained, but its been brought up a lot and that is their response.

i saw somethin like this for the blackguard, think itd be cool if there was one for all the confusin classes, little dm approved guides maybe?

Thanks for clarification, I now feel better about being a pure shifter

Gexx44 wrote:

i saw somethin like this for the blackguard, think itd be cool if there was one for all the confusin classes, little dm approved guides maybe?

Nyet, I'd rather not restrict class RP to what I (or whoever, I am using "I" in this sentence) personally think is "appropriate". Iron would have my head, in any case.

you3507 wrote:

Also, while this doesn't apply to only shifters but also druid these questions are brought up a lot:

Can I speak while shifted?
The general rule of thumb is, if the shape you are currently in can speak, you can speak, (i.e. no talking dogs, but wyrmlings are fine to speak)

If I'm shifted to a shape that naturally knows a language do I know that language?
Not unless you have studied it yourself. Shifting is a purely physical transformation and gives you no extra knowledge unless you spend the effort to learn it yourself.

I don't remember the post where this was explained, but its been brought up a lot and that is their response.

Ah, I forgot about those two. I'll see if I can find some threads on the topic and add them in.

TormakSaber wrote:

Gexx44 wrote:

i saw somethin like this for the blackguard, think itd be cool if there was one for all the confusin classes, little dm approved guides maybe?

Nyet, I'd rather not restrict class RP to what I (or whoever, I am using "I" in this sentence) personally think is "appropriate". Iron would have my head, in any case.

Not trying to restrict roleplay at all here. Just listing the things that are generally accepted as either normal reactions for characters (Druids hate undead) or any class specific DM rulings (such as the entire "pure" shifters issue.)

oh, so its all opinion, huh, right, intereting nonetheless ^_^

There are opinions, but there are facts he's stating as well.

If you're a person who speaks Common and Elven only, you don't suddenly know Draconic in a Dragon shape. Likewise, If you're a person who speaks Common and Elven but you shift into a Nymph, that doesn't mean you can't speak Common or Elven simply because Nymphs speak Sylvan as a base language. You keep all your same languages you speak normally in your shape, if that shape is capable of speech (Dogs, Deer, Cats, Boars, Bears, etc. are -not- capable of speech. They don't possess the vocal chords capable of speech). There is also -no such thing as "animal"-. "Animal" is -not- a language.

Being in a shape and playing it off correctly is up to the shifter to learn through observation. Acting like an animal who's shape you're taking is not instinctive, nor does it come naturally to your character. The are few exceptions to that.

Personally, I cringe when I see any Druid/Shifter taking the shape of an undead being. A Shifter, sure. But once you throw Druid in to the mix, I cringe. I'm no DM though so that's up to them to decide if it's okay.

All Druid/Shifters are in fact Druids and so they have to follow their Druidic oaths. And before you ask, the Druidic oaths are pretty vague. There are different things common for different types of Druids. Druidic oaths are mostly things that each individual Druid proclaim for themselves. But, the common oath would be: the protection/preservation of wild and/or tame nature, destroying things that are "anti-balance" (undead, blighters, aberrations, etc.) and other things of that nature. A Druid is like a Cleric, so if you need some simple oaths to take, look at your gods dogma and make oaths to the specific things in their dogma. For example, Silvanus preaches against the spread of diseases through unnatural means. So you would make an oath to never spread disease unnaturally and maybe to promise to stop anyone who does, where possible. Breaking an oath means you fall though, remember that.

If you're a Shifter and not a Druid, you can't use your Druidic spells. It's pretty self explanatory, really. So you wanna be a Shifter but you realize that you have to take 5 Druid levels in order to do that. You take those levels of Druid and they're there as "ghost Druid levels" in a way. That is, they're not RPly there. Therefore, those nice little spells, being a part of those "ghost Druid levels", are also not RPly there.

Needless to say, you can be a Shifter and not be a Druid.

P.S. If you're a Shifter/Druid, you still have to have a nature god as a patron; Silvanus, Chauntea, Mielikki, Eldath, Nobanion, Malar, Talos, Talona, Umberlee, etc.

you have to have a nature god? okay. not big on lore but thanks, im not making one myself but my friends char is gonna be a druid/shifter chauntea person

Shifters, no. Druids and Druid/Shifters, yes.

Okay. Shifter DM gonna go through this sequentially;

Shifters and Non-Druids
You are permitted to roleplay a shifter while ignoring the Druid aspect. However you must forfeit the following;
Druid Class Equipment (unless you can UMD it, and it isn't OOC Restricted to Druids)
Druid Spellbook
Access to the Duir

A Shifter can be any creature that possesses the ability to shapeshift otherwise, such as arcane spellcasters, rangers, and the like. As such, non-druidic Shapeshifters can occur - though there is no escaping the 5 level loss mechanically due to the Druid Class being a requirement. Got to bite and deal.

Shifters & Druidic Oaths

See question 1. If you're a Druid, you must obey Druidic Oaths. If you're not, you don't have to.

Undead Shape & Druids

Druid/Shifters are allowed to take Undead Form, however that does not immunize them from any responses from their peers (including death), and behaving excessively poorly in these forms may be grounds for being Fallen as a druid. Their use alone however is not grounds for being Fallen.

'Non Druid' Shifters & Spells

If you do not roleplay as a Druid in your Shifter Build, you may not use the Druid's Spellbook at all, for any reason. No exceptions.

Speech while Shifted

A Shifter changes only their physiology and their physical form. Psychologically they remain identical. As such, they gain no knowledge of additional languages or forms of communication that they did not know before shifting. Shifters changed into Dragon Form do not speak Draconic Automatically.

Additionally, you may only speak in a form that has the physical ability to do so. Animals cannot speak. Humanoids can.

Additionally, if the form you shift into grants a non-visible form of communication, such as Telepathy, this is not to be utilized without direct DM Supervision and Confirmation. Mind Flayers are the most common instance of this.

Shapeshifters and Recognition

Shifters are a common occurance on Amia. Characters do, rightly, get used to their presence and as such may be more or less observant of creatures behaving in certain ways. As such, do be prepared for characters to see you for what you are, even when incognito. Act as the creature would, as convincingly as you can, and this shouldn't be a problem.

In regards to being recognized immediately with certain forms; What You See Is What You Get, typically. It is not metagaming for a character to see a kobold with an acidic sword, and thusly assume it is a Shapeshifter.

Druid/Shifters and Religion

By Rule, Druids are required to pick a Nature Deity. On Amia, this is classifed as any deity with the Animal or Plant domains (see our Deity page, here, for the listing). Druids using deities other than these are prone to be Fallen or otherwise penalized significantly. This applies to Shifters who have chosen to maintain the Druid part of their Roleplay (and thusly keep their spells, gear, and the like)

WonWon explained it much better than I did.

Interesting fact, the household cat DOES actually possess the vocal chords required to mimic human speech, but as it doesn't have a human brain, it can't speak it. Theoretically this means that shifter-cats in NWN could speak, but I think we should ignore that particular quirk of biology on the grounds that it will generate more stupidity than anything else ever.

If you talk as a cat I will tell you to stop. Period.

WonWon wrote:

By Rule, Druids are required to pick a Nature Deity. On Amia, this is classifed as any deity with the Animal or Plant domains (see our Deity page, here, for the listing). Druids using deities other than these are prone to be Fallen or otherwise penalized significantly. This applies to Shifters who have chosen to maintain the Druid part of their Roleplay (and thusly keep their spells, gear, and the like)

To be fair, there are a few deities who you can be a Druid under who don't have the Animal or Plant domain here; Talos, Talona, Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, Akadi, Auril and a number of others that I don't wanna check

. Point is, if you're not sure, maybe check with a Druid player or a DM.

P.S. For you lore freaks, Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, Akadi, the elemental lords, it's a house rule that they can be used. I assume this on the fact that there was a plot of Kossuthian Druids, btw. And hell, lets be honest, it just makes sense.

TormakSaber wrote:

If you talk as a cat I will tell you to stop. Period.

Unless ofcourse it's a catgirl, then he won't leave you alone. Period.

ZING!!!!!!!

Thanks a lot everyone... quite proud of myself that I have followed each of these rules more or less by the book without even knowing of their existance. I just roleplayed with the things I saw "plausible".

However I have at one situation tried to use my spellbook from my druid-part. But no more!

Ah, yes before I forget to ask, What is the view on the 1000-faces Widget?
I mean it is a druidical widget, but do you have to be devouted to a nature-diety to be able to use it?

What about the animal companion? Is that for druid/shifters only or can pure shifters have it too?

Only for druids too, since it is a druid ability.

Galenson wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

If you talk as a cat I will tell you to stop. Period.

Unless ofcourse it's a catgirl, then he won't leave you alone. Period.

Catgirls are humanoid :wink:

Quote:

Ah, yes before I forget to ask, What is the view on the 1000-faces Widget?
I mean it is a druidical widget, but do you have to be devouted to a nature-diety to be able to use it?

Answer?

1000 Faces & Non-Druid Shifters

The 1000 Faces has a requirement of 7 Shifter Levels or 13 Druid Levels. As such, it is not classified as a Druid Only ability, and may be used by Shifters not roleplaying the druidic part of their build.

WonWon wrote:

1000 Faces & Non-Druid Shifters

The 1000 Faces has a requirement of 7 Shifter Levels or 13 Druid Levels. As such, it is not classified as a Druid Only ability, and may be used by Shifters not roleplaying the druidic part of their build.

can this Widget be requested by 'Anything' else than druids or shifters?

Thank you WonWon.

Shifter FAQ

Who is online