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Last edited by Axe on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 6:43 AM, edited 3 times in total.

Job system kinda confusing to me. First off the 3,6,9 - 30 bit is wierd. I would have gone with 1,2,3 - 10 to make it simpler, but I have a math degree so I can figure it out. Its just more complicated than it needs to be...not a big deal. But the real problem I'm getting with it is the limits. I'm playing a ranger so I figured a bow and arrow guy would fit. I spent 3 to train in bowyer and 3 more for fletcher. Now for some wood...so I went out looking for trees and found right off I would need to train in tree cutting to be able to get wood. So I spend another 3 in lumberjack. Now I find I have to saw the wood to make planks -- another 3 in sawing. Next I need mining to make the arrow heads...another 3 for that. And 3 more to get smelting so I can get to the ingots in a reasonable amount of time.

So far 18 spent just to get a coin flip at every station and low quality goods. It still takes an awful long time to do it, and most of my effort ends up in failure to craft a bow or arrow.

That leaves me with 12 left. I can get to level 2 at two of the six required stations or level 3 at one of them and 3 left over for what??? I guess a new job. Thus I can't really specialize in bow and arrow. And I wanted to do gem cutting too so I could encrust my bows with them RP.

End result, I end up standing at trees and rocks for hours on end doing nothing at all but standing there 98% of the time (i.e. not very fun at all). When I finally go through all the stations and actually get a bow crafted (I've yet to make it all the way to a crafted arrow) it's crap. No bonuses or nothing. Nobody even wants to buy it. It is barely useful to a level 1 guy -- marginally better than your basic unenchanted bow. The vast majority of players are above level 1 so nobody is interested in buying this thing I've sweated over for so long. I have to sell it to the merchant and he pays less than 200 gold for it. Maybe if I get up to level 2 or 3 what I make will be valuable? Assuming I want to use the caravans to move around instead of running everywhere it costs me more to make them than I get from selling them. Hardly a "job" for most folks. Wouldn't you give up on a job that earns you negative returns? The sidebar says the jobs can earn you vast gold but I am not seeing it.

The limits on the job system's point allocation prevent me from getting up to a good enough training level at the stations I am interested in so it won't take so damn long to get everything to the final product. I can't see how I could get the gem cutting going at all.

For me the limits turn a pretty cool system into a worthless waste of time. I understand only wanting players to have one specialization job at max level but you should be able to get a couple of other ones up to level 1 and 2. I think you should be able to get to level 3 in at least two jobs if not three. If your toon spends that much time doing it shouldn't that count for something? I mean if I spend a week making a bow doesn't that make me a bowyer to some extent?

I suggest raising up the limits, maybe based on toon level, so you can get more jobs and limiting it by how many you can get up to a certain level. Like you can have two or three level 3 jobs and, say, six or eight level 2 jobs and as many level 1 jobs as you want. Level zero jobs aren't worth the time to do anyway, so naturally if you don't do them you aren't gonna be calling yourself a craftsman in those areas -- even though theoretically you can make those things given enough time. As it is now I don't want to spend that much time creating worthless garbage for negative money just to say I RP'd my guy as a (very very poor) bow and arrow guy. There is little motivation built into the system...it is in fact incredibly demotivating.

IMO it is a shame because the system is otherwise a very unique and interesting addition. You should be able to craft something that would be unique, or have a chance of being unique, and at least useful to a lower level player, so you can open a personal shop to peddle them -- maybe a level 1-8 guy. It could be balanced to ensure you could not make anything a toon of your level would want to use as I'm sure that's a concern.

The personal shop thing is really cool too but I never have anything people are wanting to buy. I only ever find stuff that is already in the stores, and the crappiest store stuff at that. So it seems only the really high level players gathering the best loot are able to take advantage of the store system. They are the only ones who have stuff not already available in the NPC store. These two systems should be made more approachable and would be if you would eliminate some of the built-in limits that are preventing them from being integrated into the game. I would love to be able to RP being a crafter of gem encrusted bows & arrows and open a store to sell them. Stuff that other players will actually want to buy. But I get nothing from trying to do that now. It costs me to even try. It costs me in XP lost doing it, it costs me in GP, and it costs me in time. I could easily spend 3 resets worth of time to stock and open a store then stand there for 2 hours waiting for nobody to check it out. Its no wonder the stores are almost always closed. Don't understand why there are so many of them around. Just my opinion...

Axe wrote:

Job system kinda confusing to me. But I have a math degree so I can figure it out.

Fixed.

I would recommend waiting for Disco's post before you take any reply seriously, TBH.

TormakSaber wrote:

I would recommend waiting for Disco's post before you take any reply seriously, TBH.

Disco's post? Am I missing a topic on this already? Sorry I started a new thread.

I think Tormaks referring to the fact that this is peanut gallery bait and that you should wait for Disco to read it and reply ignoring every other post made until that happens.

Wasn't one of the intentions behind the job system to encourage market based interaction between PCs? If one PC could cut the wood perfectly, prepare it, make it into bows and arrow shafts, smelt the metal for arrow heads and temper them then there would be no market.

I have a character that can mine ore for gems and metal. He can only process the ore for the gems however. He is also a gem merchant. Soon he will be a jeweler.

It'd be nice if he could smelt metals and make armor and weapons and arrow heads. However, if he could he would not have to trade for them. It's an economic system as well as a job system I believe.

MoshingChris wrote:

I think Tormaks referring to the fact that this is peanut gallery bait and that you should wait for Disco to read it and reply ignoring every other post made until that happens.

Bingo.

Exactly as Incognitos is suggesting, and so had you in your post. Specializing.

You can be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

Or you can be a Artisan Worker with hobbies.

The more self-reliant you want to be, the less successful it is. You don't need math for this. You need econimics. The more of one item you are trying to produce, the more time it will take. If you focus to specialize, you can increase your effeciency. If you however choose to spread out and divide your time on two things, you will loose effeciency, naturally. You start making trades beyond just "time it takes" for the more items you wish to create.

So start dividing your time 3 ways, and you have to pick what you're going to put more ranks into. So that X-item will take less time to create the same quantity of Y-item and Z-item.

Or divide it 4, 5, 6...10 ways, and you're overall effeciency will drop. Period. You have to put more time into produce the same goods as somebody who is specialized. You trade your time for more self-reliance. Somebody who trades the self-reliance to reduce time, then, may be more dependant on you. Or somebody who chose a different specialization. Economically based, trading more is better for everyone.

--~--

Math? Why would you want the 3rd rank? This is my thinking:

Rank 1 : 3 points : Gain 50%
Rank 2: 6 points : Gain 20%
Rank 3: 9 points : Gain 20%

If you tackle this from math-based, you should be concluding that your best value is in going to the 2nd rank at most.

Rank 1+ Rank 2 : 9 points : Gain 70%
Rank 3 : 9 points : Gain 20%

You can either master a craft for only a 20% increase on the rolls. Or you can journyman a craft for 70% increase in the rolls.

--~--

Quote:

I would have gone with 1,2,3 - 10 to make it simpler

This is multiplied by 3's to gain job points of tops 30. While the conversion is the same, I would wager this was easier to program. Instead of granting +1 job point per 3 levels, starting with 1 job point to account for ECL characters; putting to a 30 system means each level gains +1 job point (end at 27th). It was probably easier to program the game to add 3job points at character creation and add +1 more up to the 27th level.

--~--

You do make a valid point about to gain for the final product vs the effort it takes to produce said product. I know of at least one proffession where the Ingredients are worth more to sell than the final product(s) they can be used in making. Which is very strange.

That I would support needs some examining.

Last edited by Axe on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 6:45 AM, edited 2 times in total.

The Incognitos wrote:

Wasn't one of the intentions behind the job system to encourage market based interaction between PCs? If one PC could cut the wood perfectly, prepare it, make it into bows and arrow shafts, smelt the metal for arrow heads and temper them then there would be no market.

I have a character that can mine ore for gems and metal. He can only process the ore for the gems however. He is also a gem merchant. Soon he will be a jeweler.

It'd be nice if he could smelt metals and make armor and weapons and arrow heads. However, if he could he would not have to trade for them. It's an economic system as well as a job system I believe.

That's wonderful in theory, but I've never seen anybody selling anything they crafted. Never have I seen a plank salesman. Never an ingot guy. I see the idea, get what you're saying, but not the reality in game. There are way too many jobs and way too few players to expect the right combinations to be present online at any time. Because of the severe limitations in what you can do, there just isn't enough people able to provide the right components. If I could make and sell something somebody actually wants it would encourage that sort of interaction 1000% more than it currently does...IMO. As it is now I am very unlikely to continue the effort and if there are many more that feel the same as I do about the system, my guess is that it will be equally unlikely that such an ideal economic situation like you are imagining will ever happen. Because it isn't worth the effort, only a few people online at any time are even doing it. There has to be some value in it for reasons other than just RP alone.

As far as the math goes...it isn't necessarily the time it takes or the % chance on the rolls. I want to get to level 3 so what I make (should) has higher quality and therefore (should) have a higher value -- better bonuses. Not just because it will take less time to do it. Time isn't that important, value of what I make should be there -- and it isn't.

Axe wrote:

That's wonderful in theory, but I've never seen anybody selling anything they crafted. Never have I seen a plank salesman. Never an ingot guy. I see the idea, get what you're saying, but not the reality in game. There are way too many jobs and way too few players to expect the right combinations to be present online at any time.

Disco worked hard to alleviate the issue of "lack in materials" by opening up the Purchase from Merchant feature. Find the merchant NPC that trades with what you need. Players are now selling into those NPC's who then reflect what was sold to them, to sell to you. So somebody can 100planks of wood and you can purchase those 4 hours after they have logged off- resets do not reset these quantities (is what my impresison is, I have not needed to check yet).

Torzeng wrote:

Axe wrote:

That's wonderful in theory, but I've never seen anybody selling anything they crafted. Never have I seen a plank salesman. Never an ingot guy. I see the idea, get what you're saying, but not the reality in game. There are way too many jobs and way too few players to expect the right combinations to be present online at any time.

Disco worked hard to alleviate the issue of "lack in materials" by opening up the Purchase from Merchant feature. Find the merchant NPC that trades with what you need. Players are now selling into those NPC's who then reflect what was sold to them, to sell to you. So somebody can 100planks of wood and you can purchase those 4 hours after they have logged off- resets do not reset these quantities (is what my impresison is, I have not needed to check yet).

Again, a good idea but no reality to it during play. I tried doing it that way on numerous occasions and found that the merchant always has no planks available. This is why I finally decided to simply spend the points on lumberjack and sawing just so I could see if I could actually make a bow. When I finally did I was very disappointed at what came out of it because it had no value to anybody but the NPC merchants.

1) There should be 2NPC's that trade with planks. As both servers are supposed to have a trainer for every job. That could help.

2) I know 4 PC's who can gather planks. 3 of which I wager would be glad to sell them(1 I know is harvesting for their own stockpile plans). PC Notices is how I found them. The worst that can happen from trying fliers IC is no responses.

-End-

It isn't really a question of whether there exists PCs who are willing to sell planks. The point is that they don't unless you know who they are and approach them outside of the market context. And then what you are likely to get is "wait here while I go make some for you". Nobody is lugging around reams of 50 lb planks. There is no good reason for them to do that, planks have no value. Thus I should be able to make my own so I can make my bows. I have seen the store system being used on a couple of occasions but they were not selling job items, they were all selling loot drop stuff. And that isn't surprising at all because the job system is a valueless economy. I will always do better by killing monsters and selling the loot. It takes very little time to stock up a store that way, it is way more fun to obtain the stock, and the stock is worth something to the other players so I am far more likely to profit from it.

If the purpose of the job system is to promote PC to PC trading then you have to give them some kind of value to exchange. Enough value to compete with the NPC to PC trading. Otherwise it isn't worth the effort. I need more motivation to do it. I am not trying to denegrate the idea behind the system, on the contrary I love the idea, I just feel that its implementation is poor. Producing the stock is too difficult and time consuming, because it is too limiting unproductive and not very fun to do. Compared to loot drops and the NPC merchants it is funner to kill monsters for the loot and sell that, plus you get more value out of it. Loot drops are more valuable to those shopping. So the jobs are a shamefully poor substitute. I'm just stating why I'm no longer participating in it in the hopes that something will be done to revive it.

Last edited by Axe on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 5:57 AM, edited 3 times in total.

I'd also like to propose a job "Guide" where you can sell your service as a henchman. I think that would be a fun one to RP. I have done it already and it worked out pretty well from an RP standpoint although it was tough to approach people to sell them on it. They were quite willing to have me join their party to go hunt and split the loot but I wanted to RP it differently by having them give a fee plus an occasional treasure in exchange for directions, protection, healing, and raising them. Most I approached didn't really get what I was proposing. But for the couple of guys I succeeded with it turned out to be fun RP. Level differences were a bit of a problem I never knew whether those I approached needed me as a guide. If there was a job station for hiring guides it would have made more sense to them, I would be able to get a better match level-wise with my employer I think, and I would have had more luck with the idea.

Torzeng wrote:

So somebody can [sell] 100planks of wood and you can purchase those 4 hours after they have logged off- resets do not reset these quantities (is what my impresison is, I have not needed to check yet).

The prices NPC give for the materials aren't worth the effort imo. Just my 2c.

To the devs: are there a good amounts of resources stored at the NPC merchants?

Quote:

I'm just stating why I'm no longer participating in it in the hopes that something will be done to revive it.

BTW, if you drop out you're only exacerbating the very issue you mention.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I'm just stating why I'm no longer participating in it in the hopes that something will be done to revive it.

BTW, if you drop out you're only exacerbating the very issue you mention.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. It is an unsuccessful system because there are so many players that have come to the same conclusion I have. I very much want to participate but I just can't justify it. It isn't very fun. It is difficult to RP becoming a poor bowyer who is running a failing business.

After learning nobody would buy them from me, I spent an entire reset just making bows. I ended up with about 15 of them. After the reset I immediately went around Cordor (level 1 land) and sold a couple to every merchant in town. Just before the next reset came, I went around checking the stores and found not a single one of them sold. If they won't even buy them from the NPCs why would they buy them from me? For me to try to sell them is pointless. Hardly anybody even wants to open my store to see them and those that do giggle and walk away. 90 minutes in the market, lots of "what is this guy doing this for" remarks, little RPing I can do to convince them, and no profit when its all done. AND I stood there doing nothing for 90 minutes instead of advancing my toon in some way. Pointless waste of time. Well intentioned but in the end pointless.

Mind that you're not supposed to gain a lot from the job system, in terms of wealth. It's nothing like the job/crafting systems in the popular online games, but rather purposefully designed to be flavour for RP instead.

It's surely a huge disappointment to anyone who expects a system like those.

Nekhy wrote:

Mind that you're not supposed to gain a lot from the job system, in terms of wealth. It's nothing like the job/crafting systems in the popular online games, but rather purposefully designed to be flavour for RP instead.

It's surely a huge disappointment to anyone who expects a system like those.

Well on that score it's a wild success then. I think it is underused because of that mindset.

Anyway my points are made -- thanks for listening to them.

Some jobs are already decent. Gambler and Scribe for example are both very useful. Then you have others on the arse-end of the spectrum. I agree that the crafters should be able to make better stuff. Level of Job should not only increase chance for crafters but item properties as well. After all a level 3 crafter invested 18 job points just to craft.

Perhaps you are looking for rp from the wrong part of the job. You are right, not many folks will buy a plain old bow from you. So sell the completed product to a job system weapon merchant (npc or pc - likely npc). Find the rp in the acquisition of planks, by interacting with other players to get them.

If you could take master level in everything you needed to make the bows, that wouldn't suddenly make people buy them - they still wouldn't. So then you'd not only have no rp in selling bows - which you already don't - you ALSO have no rp in the acquisition of materials or the crafting of said bows. Problem very NOT solved.

~HOWEVER~ I've spent the past week or so trying in game and on the forums, to find various materials for the inventor job, with absolutely no luck in the stuff I really wanted to find.

Most of the interesting items require drops from the big game hunter job. Hunting jobs like big game hunter take forever to do a single job, with only a chance of success after the time it takes. And I'm not sure if teh type of game you end up sent after is random, or what, but it seems that it's a ridiculous amount of effort to get 1 specific item from the big game hunter job, followed by much much more effort for any inventor to find said big game hunter with the specific item the inventor needs. Enough effort that I have no gotten a single item.

So i do agree that the materials are suffocatingly difficult to obtain, in order to do many jobs. I chalk it up to too much variety available, and too much reliance on other jobs - like hunting jobs - which take too long to do, to really work out. But I have no idea how to fix that in any manner that encourages rp, as opposed to eliminating it.

Cori wrote:

Perhaps you are looking for rp from the wrong part of the job. You are right, not many folks will buy a plain old bow from you. So sell the completed product to a job system weapon merchant (npc or pc - likely npc). Find the rp in the acquisition of planks, by interacting with other players to get them.

If you could take master level in everything you needed to make the bows, that wouldn't suddenly make people buy them - they still wouldn't. So then you'd not only have no rp in selling bows - which you already don't - you ALSO have no rp in the acquisition of materials or the crafting of said bows. Problem very NOT solved.

~HOWEVER~ I've spent the past week or so trying in game and on the forums, to find various materials for the inventor job, with absolutely no luck in the stuff I really wanted to find.

Most of the interesting items require drops from the big game hunter job. Hunting jobs like big game hunter take forever to do a single job, with only a chance of success after the time it takes. And I'm not sure if teh type of game you end up sent after is random, or what, but it seems that it's a ridiculous amount of effort to get 1 specific item from the big game hunter job, followed by much much more effort for any inventor to find said big game hunter with the specific item the inventor needs. Enough effort that I have no gotten a single item.

So i do agree that the materials are suffocatingly difficult to obtain, in order to do many jobs. I chalk it up to too much variety available, and too much reliance on other jobs - like hunting jobs - which take too long to do, to really work out. But I have no idea how to fix that in any manner that encourages rp, as opposed to eliminating it.

Well one way would be to make it much more affordable job point wise to become a big game hunter so there would be more of them. I think one of the weaknesses of the system is that it assumes every job is equally difficult to learn. That is not very realistic. Also assuming every job has the same number of leves is bad implementation. Is it really appropriate to assume a player who has been training as a lumberjack for a long time will cut better quality logs than one who has little skill? Time wise I can understand seeing a slight difference, but quality? That job should only have 2 levels or even just 1. If you train in it at all you can cut efficiently otherwise it will take a long time.

The progression will be weird whatever you do. Either you give level/3 jobpoints, or 3 points per level. You got to do the math somewhere. I doubt it's that hard, most people can understand DnD here, and this is a bit simpler than concepts like at which level you get your/what bonus feat or your multiclass penalty.

The stocks are running for a week now, give it some time. You can follow what's in there with this page.

http://www.amiaworld.net/about/ds_j_stocks.php

Dev Disco wrote:

The progression will be weird whatever you do. Either you give level/3 jobpoints, or 3 points per level. You got to do the math somewhere. I doubt it's that hard, most people can understand DnD here, and this is a bit simpler than concepts like at which level you get your/what bonus feat or your multiclass penalty.

The stocks are running for a week now, give it some time. You can follow what's in there with this page.

http://www.amiaworld.net/about/ds_j_stocks.php

Ok I was under the mistaken impression that you just get 30 points when you make a new toon. I didn't try the jobs until I hit level 8 so I didn't realize you give them out a little at each level. It makes more sense now that you allocate them that way. But as I said that isn't hard to figure out.

Looking at that page I notice there are no logs listed at all and only Ash planks (qty 1) are there. Using ash planks to make a bow yields a bow with no properties at all. So I wouldn't even want those anyway. The more I think about it the more I think its the cost of training that is off. When you say jobpoints you really mean training points. It is training that you are purchasing with them. To me it seems off that it takes the same amount of training to learn to cut down a tree as it does to turn a plank into a bow. I think if the cost to train was adjusted for the jobs to better reflect how tough it is to do that job it would help. 1 point to learn level 1 lumberjack but 3 points to learn level 1 bowyer makes more sense to me. Lumberjacking just isn't that hard to learn. It makes sense that there would be more people knowing that one. If it was cheaper there would be. So what if that reduces the chance that a guy will be selling logs, if it increases the number of guys selling planks and bows then it will be worth it to promote PC trading.

Did you actually read the Job System pages on the sidebar?

http://www.amiaworld.net/about/ds_j_system.html

Most of your remarks/questions are addressed in there.

Axe wrote:

This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. It is an unsuccessful system because there are so many players that have come to the same conclusion I have. I very much want to participate but I just can't justify it. It isn't very fun. It is difficult to RP becoming a poor bowyer who is running a failing business.

I gotta say that I can't see it that way. I got a huntress (Trapping 3,Tanning 2)
No one buys the meat, but its still useful for Rp flavors. The Hides however I can turn into leather which in turn can become pages.
I also found someone who is willing to pay 3k for each of them, each!
I just said I only require 500 gold, seriously, more feels like a Ripoff when I can produce 25 of them in a single RP session.
That is however just a two step process, bowyer is far more difficult and if the crafted bows could be used earlier than the shop sold counterparts am I quite sure more people would actually want them too.
Then again, how many people are there that are using bows?
So far I can't say I have seen a lot, perhaps 6 or so. Most others prefer melee.

Many crafting jobs, especially those that produce end products, are pretty "useless" indeed. But that's how it goes: there's a rather limited market for weapons, armor etc. You really only need one, the best you can get your hands on. (And then some alternatives for different spawns and the buffing available.) You find those in the Abyss and Gauntlet shops, or other special places.

Unless we were willing to make the products of the Job System better than anything you can find elsewhere, there's really no way to make them interesting from a practical point of view. No matter how cool and unique you can make your weapons and armor, nobody will buy them with power and practicality in mind if they can get better at the Gauntlet. If you don't care about the flavor, it won't gain you much no matter what.

But that's where flavor comes in: if you really want to play a weaponsmith, you can. And that's really cool. You can help others with their DC requests, you can offer your talents to DM events and faction needs, etc. If only there'd been a Job System when I requested my custom rapier for Kalliniel, I'd have utilized the services of half a dozen PCs.

Other jobs are very nice and handy. It's just some of the crafter (and perhaps hunter) ones that seem a bit anticlimatic. Cooks, scribes, beggars and preachers are all very cool, and provide endless entertainment. You could argue that taking Bowyer is pointless, but it should be included because some characters want to be Bowyers, profit or not.

IMO what you have to bear in mind is that with some jobs three points is enough, even if you are massively inefficient compared to someone who spent twelve points on the job.

You don't have to sell to an NPC right away either, you can spend three points on a trader job and get a spawnable storage box to put some of your goodies in. This way if you do find a PC to trade to, you'll be able to trade a lot more than what would normally fit in your inventory.

Yups.

Last edited by Axe on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 9:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Dev Disco wrote:

Did you actually read the Job System pages on the sidebar?

http://www.amiaworld.net/about/ds_j_system.html

Most of your remarks/questions are addressed in there.

Yes I did. A couple of times in fact. I just missed the bit about the 3/level thing. I probably read that and realized I already had plenty built up a good enough supply of them so it went in one ear and out the other. But it doesn't address the lack of value problem there. I suppose you could say the bit about "jobs aren't supposed to be worth much" sort of does. I certainly would not argue with that point now that I've tried it. But that kind of attitude does little to motivate players to RP jobs. "Here's a great new job system for your RP pleasure. Note: it isn't worth doing." That's kind of what it sounds like to me. And after trying a job myself it is living up to that billing in a big way.

I've been using bows as an example because that's what I went for. I am sure some of the other jobs are different and work better. It isn't all bad by any stretch. Just not to well organized.

Let me just reiterate I am not berating the idea just the implementation of it. The scripting and conversations and rest of the mechanics are all beautifully done. But, for example, the purpose is to promote PC trading for RP. If it was successful then why was it necessary to implement the buy back due to lack of supply? Obviously that was added because not enough players were selling the goods they made. Especially the raw ones like logs and ore. Because not enough players were finding it worthwhile to chop logs and such. But implementing that buy back system is just providing another different PC/NPC trading system and actually reduces the motivation for PCs to trade with each other, since it is far easier to just sell the logs to the NPC guy instead of going all the way back to town and opening a store for it that nobody will buy from even after several hours of operation. It is counterproductive to the purpose of the job system to begin with. Despite that, it is still a more useful addition for raw materials like logs because they aren't really useful or valuable or even interesting on their own and nobody really wants to major in lumberjacking because of that. Thus the lack of log supply. Because logs are scarce planks are also scarce and then so are anything made from planks. Considering how many things are made from wood and metal that's probably half the jobs right there that have become mostly just a different NPC/PC deal. Not much RP value in that at all. In my opinion you're killing yourself. All that great work scripting up the system is for naught for at least 60% of the player base if not more. Reorganizing and categorizing the jobs, their training costs, and making the value of stuff produced sufficient to beat the NPC stores OCCASIONALLY would go a long way to improving those deficiencies. At least for the crafting type jobs. Things like begging and diplomacy are of course a different story.

Frankly, after trying out the mythal forging thing and not really liking that much either I would say the job system would be a much more elegant way to incorporate crafting into the world and just get rid of the mythal system completely. Lots more PC/PC RP interaction and trading in the stores if you went that route. But that's another can of worms. I am guessing your server vets wouldn't be to happy with that idea at all because most of the value, value that beats the standard store bought items, is concentrated there. But if you are looking for more RP that's exactly what I would do. Mythal forging is not a very effective RP tool either. I would bet most everybody does that solo the majority of the time.

There's room for improvement is all I'm saying.

Last edited by corypx on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 9:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.

selling 705 logs for dreamcoins or teach me how to make me harm potions

rank 3 in Sawyer,Miller and Refiner (not counting fail or bonus exp) it would be about 52875 exp

I think that the mythal system is one of the worst additions to Amia ever. Not because of the implementation, that's fine. I just don't think you should be able to make items at your own leisure. Takes away much of the fun of finding stuff and creating it for players. Why bother with making unique treasure when you know anyone can create the same thing faster than you can?

Alas, we got it and it's here to stay. I don't think that putting yet another item creation system is helping, though.

Last edited by Nekhy on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 9:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Axe wrote:

"Here's a great new job system for your RP pleasure. Note: it isn't worth doing." That's kind of what it sounds like to me.

You are correct, because that's what it essentially says. It's the very idea of this system to be not something you do for benefit, but something you do for the sake of doing it to add depth to your character. It's not there to compete with player merchants in terms of merchandise, for example. The benefit and value of the job is between the player's ears. I'm sorry, if that's not the sort of benefit you're looking for, or if it's not to your liking. Nobody needs to do the jobs to play on Amia, it's just an extra for those who'd like to do something in addition to adventuring.

The issue of resources available at merchants is a possible problem, but the stores have only been collecting them for a short time as Disco said, so it remains to be seen how it'll work out in the end. Maybe the stores need a small base stock? Dunno yet.

Dev Disco wrote:

I think that the mythal system is one of the worst additions to Amia ever. Not because of the implementation, that's fine. I just don't think you should be able to make items at your own leisure. Takes away much of the fun of finding stuff and creating it for players. Why bother with making unique treasure when you know anyone can create the same thing faster than you can?

Alas, we got it and it's here to stay. I don't think that putting yet another item creation system is helping, though.

MOAR YELLOW ITEMZ!!

but for real, yellow items are fun I found a ring with +5tumble,3AC and darkvision and I was happy as undead with harm potions (not going to use the thing but finding yellows are fun)

Dev Disco wrote:

I think that the mythal system is one of the worst additions to Amia ever. Not because of the implementation, that's fine. I just don't think you should be able to make items at your own leisure. Takes away much of the fun of finding stuff and creating it for players. Why bother with making unique treasure when you know anyone can create the same thing faster than you can?

Alas, we got it and it's here to stay. I don't think that putting yet another item creation system is helping, though.

I'm new to the server so I don't know what it was like without the mythal thing but I couldn't agree more with you on this. I have never liked forge systems or socket item systems. It puts too much power in the hands of the players. Your job idea would be a fantastic replacement.

Nekhy wrote:

The benefit and value of the job is between the player's ears. I'm sorry, if that's not the sort of benefit you're looking for, or if it's not to your liking. Nobody needs to do the jobs to play on Amia, it's just an extra for those who'd like to do something in addition to adventuring.

Sounds like you are saying RP is a solo deal. I love to RP but not with myself. I'm sorta geeky but not nearly THAT much. If it is only between my ears and nobody else wants to participate with me it is not very fun for me. I am all for stuff like this that is in addition to normal adventuring. I wouldn't be making this thread if I didn't really like the idea. The main reason I play the game tho is to advance my toon in some way. Jobs that are not worth doing don't advance me in any way. Giving my character depth in my own mind only isn't doing much for me. Yeah I am better equipped to deepen my character's persona in my eyes but I want the rest of the world to recognize my bowyer skills too (or whatever job -- weapon maker if melee is preferred by the players) to make it worthwhile. If all I was looking for was to imagine on my own some deep character, I wouldn't need to play the game at all. I could just lay in bed and think stuff up and get the same or even greater rewards from it since it wouldn't be limited by NWN restrictions.

Well my opinion is there. I'm hoping this thread will continue and some good ideas will pop up that will make the systems better once folks think it over a little more.

Take Bowyer Rank 3 then and you can say you are an accomplished Bow maker.
All you need are the materials, not your problem they are not abound.

Last edited by Nekhy on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 10:15 AM, edited 1 time in total.

It doesn't have to be solo RP. That's entirely up to the player(s) in question.

I am not sure now, what are you trying to say. You dislike the core idea of the system? The core idea being a RP flavour system, that doesn't give real advancement to the gameplay in terms of items and numbers and anything measurable. There's no motivational factor included for purpose, other than an individual player's desire to have a mundane job for the sake of having a mundane job and having the means to display it to others, and perhaps use it in RP and DC requests. How to use it is left entirely up to the individuals.

Do I understand right if I get the impression you'd like to change the core idea of the system to match... what?

I can understand, that it seems like a waste of a good system. But from our point of view, it's all quite purposeful, because it's never meant to be anything else. It's quite an ideological choice, admittedly.

I have to agree with the long telephone required for any of the jobs that require crafting, and with it largely not being worth the trouble and frustration. I certainly know what it was intended for, but none of the results are actually worth all of the trouble needed to get them. The best jobs end up being ones that can standalone; Burglar, for instance, has decent rewards and doesn't require anything but a locked door.

It also doesn't help that most of the time, people are extremely tight lipped about the location of some of the teachers. I spent a little over a week looking for the Alchemist when the job system was first added, just so I could try it out on a character I had already RP'd as an alchemist forever. And now, I just don't use it.

And I can understand it being an RP additive, but if that's all it's meant to be then it's a little surprising so much work went into it. It could easily be a lot more with a little tweaking to the rewards and crafts. I wouldn't mind going to all the trouble that the craft classes have... if they made anything worthwhile.

Neus Scario wrote:

And I can understand it being an RP additive, but if that's all it's meant to be then it's a little surprising so much work went into it. It could easily be a lot more with a little tweaking to the rewards and crafts. I wouldn't mind going to all the trouble that the craft classes have... if they made anything worthwhile.

This is quite the core problem we have here. Two different views on what has value. The job system's idea is to have value in itself for individual players, and not have value as a tool for gaining something else. Most games are based on the latter, as is the mindset of the society we live in, so it seems like a waste of time and effort to many, both on the development and user's side.

But that's why nobody has to use it, if they don't like it. Those who like having a mundane job for the sake of having one, can use it.

I sincerely want to like it, but I'm just saying that even to me, someone who does nothing on the server but RP, it is not worth the time. If the developer(s) are fine with that then there's nothing that can be done, I suppose.

It's not easy to take jobs out of the line at the moment. I guess the best bet is the stocks, and seeding them with some base resources every reset.

It's a bit hard to let this system compete with anything in Amia for usefulness. Gear? Mythal it. Drinks? Everything is already easily available. I did add a few things that are really useful, but there's so much you can do on a server where people are frankly said spoiled to hell.

I share Neus's problems, and it's not that I want gain for myself. My situation is this:

Joon was comissioned to restore a ruined tome of considerable value. Yay, I get to use my Scribe job! So I explain what I need, get paid in advance, send an order for exotic ink all the way to Silverymoon, and get on with acquiring cotton and leather for book covers. Fortunately, I find a market gardener who can supply me with a large stock of raw cotton. An associate offers me pages. Great, already people involved! Now I just have to ask around for a weaver to spin the cotton, a trapper to provide me some hides and a tanner to cure them into usable leather. So I ask around, every time I log on. I visit Cordor and Wiltun to leave a general order, and have several friends and associates ask around for me, too.

That was weeks ago. There's been no sign of cotton bolts or leather since then, no one has got back to me with information. Sure, it's been fun RP so far. I can only thank the customer for their patience. It does get pretty frustrating on the long run, though: it's no fun being a book binder, if I can't find representatives of the (minimum of) four other jobs I need to bind a single book. In this case it's not so bad, because it's an important book and everyone understood IC that it would take time. But for casual purposes, it's pretty much a no-go to order a book from a Scribe and expect to have it delivered in any reasonable time, if this is the trouble one has to go through IC and OOC. It's purely for flavor, and I don't want/need any mechanical profit for it. A good IC reputation is enough. But it's getting pretty difficult to justify the IC profession, if it's so difficult and expensive a business to run, IC.

Just to illustrate the problem. It's not just about benefits to yourself. But with the merchant stocks that have been mentioned a few times now, hopefully the problem becomes less severe.

Nekhy wrote:

It doesn't have to be solo RP. That's entirely up to the player(s) in question.

I am not sure now, what are you trying to say. You dislike the core idea of the system? The core idea being a RP flavour system, that doesn't give real advancement to the gameplay in terms of items and numbers and anything measurable. There's no motivational factor included for purpose, other than an individual player's desire to have a mundane job for the sake of having a mundane job and having the means to display it to others, and perhaps use it in RP and DC requests. How to use it is left entirely up to the individuals.

Do I understand right if I get the impression you'd like to change the core idea of the system to match... what?

I can understand, that it seems like a waste of a good system. But from our point of view, it's all quite purposeful, because it's never meant to be anything else. It's quite an ideological choice, admittedly.

Excellent point. Really excellent. I guess you're right it is the core concept I don't really like about it. I don't see that it accomplishes the goal effectively. Let me elaborate with an example. . .

I want to RP being a lumberjack. So I go to town and try to get somebody to accompany me to go chop some trees. Who is gonna come with me to watch me chop a tree for 30 minutes or whatever? Even the most hardcore RP only guys are likely to want to stay in town to do their RP with all their RP buddies that are there. Unless I can convice a whole group of them to come along so they can RP instead of standing there watching me chop, it isn't at all probable that I will be able to RP the act of chopping the wood with anybody but myself. So the performance of the actual job task is gonna be a solo effort virtually all the time -- at least for the lumberjack job.

Couple that with the fact that the majority of time spent in the system is in the actual performance of the task and most of the RP value of it is gonna be solo. It would be easier and more RP effective for me to forget about performing the task, go to the seeded merchant, and simply buy the logs from him and claim I chopped them myself. I wouldn't have to waste the majority of my RP time chopping alone. Not that I object to the time it takes to do the task. I don't mind it being time consuming if there was some kind of reward for somebody when it was all over with. I feel that my time is spent accomplishing nothing. It is that fact which annoys me about the time it takes to do it.

This leaves the true RP value for lumberjacking to what happens after the product has been produced. If the product isn't valueable it is hard to RP that I think. I can boast about what an expert lumberjack I am and how perfect my logs are because of it but then the whole RP value is blown out the window when they open my store and find nothing exciting there at all. They can clearly see that I am no better at wood chopping than any untrained bozo who got lucky on his 10% roll is. There is a loss of immersion there when that happens. There are no RP clues there that gives them ideas about what to say concerning why my logs are so wonderful. No matter how good I am at it the clues they get all say I am not. Even if they are good RPers that play along with the "deceit" and end up throwing some money my way before they drop my undistinguished logs into the nearest trash can. It will be hard to RP it.

And since there was nothing of value produced there is no lasting RP value to it either. My bows are worthless and benefit nobody. I can't pass by them later and say "how's that bow working out for ya" cuz they aren't using it. I would like to provide some benefit to the low level guys so they will remember me as the bow guy that made them the bow which allowed them to defeat that monster charging at them when they were out of healing potions and down to 3 hp. To me that has tons more RP value then 2 hours of solo running around followed by 5 minutes of RPing with a customer who doesn't benefit at all. I am not looking so much for benefit for myself as I am for those around me. The reason I want to do the job is to provide something for everybody else or at least some of the lower level guys. Whether I end up profiting or not is really immaterial to me. I just would like to get the feeling that the effort I put into it has some benefit to the world somewhere.

Personally I am not very good at RP to begin with. If I can't see a good idea in front of my eyes I have trouble thinking one up. If the logs had some value to them that I could recognize it would be far easier for me to RP it. Otherwise I'm going to RP something else that I can do more easily. I probably just picked one of the worst jobs to do I guess.

Quote:

I probably just picked one of the worst jobs to do I guess.

No, all of the jobs were made with the idea to begin with that competing with stores was pointless, things wouldn't give much mechanical gain, and it would largely be for flavor.

You aren't in the minority about these feelings, I think... but there's little that can be done.

I don't mind making the jobs better, but then I will strip shops so brutally that you wished you'd never asked.

I don't really care, but all my characters are in the point in their lifespan where DC items are the way to go, so that's biased.

Last edited by Nekhy on Sun, Sep 13 2009, 20:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Well, there is one very real reward in the end: we nowadays require a material component for almost all (if not all already) construction projects initiated by characters. And those materials need to be gained via the job system, for example.

But that's very dependent on the situation. There's no universal goal you can aim for right now, but your job skills might come handy at a later point instead. Same applies to DC requests, where someone might ask for help for a storyline, that aims for creation of an item etc. DM plots, too.

Only imagination is the limit of rewards reaped, in the end.

Nekhy wrote:

Well, there is one very real reward in the end: we nowadays require a material component for almost all (if not all already) construction projects initiated by characters. And those materials need to be gained via the job system, for example.

But that's very dependent on the situation. There's no universal goal you can aim for right now, but your job skills might come handy at a later point instead.

Mhmm, I think the RP aspect for the Job System is mostly a boost to when you request anything DC wise. It helps you actually have something as show of work than just screenshots of dozens of conversations and imaginary items being traded back and forth- because a physical part isn't in the module to use reasonably.

However, not all jobs seem helpful in that perspective.

I also think we're seeing a little struggle with the sheer number of jobs available. We have a good player base, and each PC can take up to 10 jobs or a minimal of 3 jobs (assuming all job points are allocated). However, it's a long-haul to find what people use, like, and will bother with. I would wager that the mythal system went through the same dilemma. People working to find what was worth while and what was just added goodies for the few interested.

Because there is a favoritism for Merchant Jobs (storage of materials) and Gathering jobs (Best Sell Rates). Harvesting jobs (safe, easy xp) seem to me to bring up 3rd. [Gather=find item, Harvest=plant, herd item].

Production jobs, hunting jobs, and unique jobs are all far more only giving for RP incentive. The Production jobs just back up you have skills, but you may not actually bother job-wise and just RP wise could pull it off. Hunting jobs seem motivators as to why to hunt in location X instead of location Y. But I've seen those already do not promise the item-drops for job-system which hurts it. The unique jobs, well, are all different reasons but are very much unique being RP designated more than anything else.

IMHO.

Axe wrote:

It isn't really a question of whether there exists PCs who are willing to sell planks. The point is that they don't unless you know who they are and approach them outside of the market context. And then what you are likely to get is "wait here while I go make some for you". Nobody is lugging around reams of 50 lb planks. There is no good reason for them to do that, planks have no value.

Producing the stock is too difficult and time consuming, because it is too limiting unproductive and not very fun to do.

Cori wrote:

So i do agree that the materials are suffocatingly difficult to obtain, in order to do many jobs. I chalk it up to too much variety available, and too much reliance on other jobs - like hunting jobs - which take too long to do, to really work out.

Although I like the job system, I agree with Axe (and Cori, and Iron) in a number of respects.

With Xaviera I have Masseuse 3 Herbalist 1 Alchemist 1 Preacher 1 Scribe 1. The only maxed-out one requires no input save the presence of another character, so I dont need to go hunting for materials. I use the Preacher simply to spawn the altar placeable and the Scribe to make the occasional piece of paper or book and to change descriptions on things. If I fail to change a description it doesnt destroy the item so 50% is just as good as 90% in this respect.

While I've made a few things with Alchemist and Herbalist, it was just to try them out. Finding the materials is more effort than it's worth, so it boils down to having the job mainly for RP reasons - that is, being able to actually do something (if I wanted to) that I've been claiming for my character for a year.

While I dont think that everyone should be able to be a professional at every job (eg. lumberjack, sawyer, miner, refiner, bowyer and fletcher, in Axe's example), the required dependance on the products of other jobs does make things difficult. In terms of maximizing skills, the best you can do with 30 points (at max level, mind you) is to have ranks 3/2/1 in 3 jobs.

DCs are a reward for RP, and the job system is in place to encourage RP of non-adventuring professions. This is why I think it should be possible to buy extra job points with DCs (*hides from Tormak*). At 1 DC per point, the cost of a minor scripted DC item (15 DCs) will buy you professional rank (3) in 1 job if you skill is already at rank 1. You could restrict the system such that only skills you already have can be increased by DCs, ie. you cant buy new skills so you can never exceed 10 professions (10 x 3 pts for rank 1 in each).

Starting at 3/2/1 you could max out 3 skills for 24 DCs.
Starting at 2/2/2/1 you could max out 4 skills for 42 DCs or 3 (3/3/3/1) for 27 DCs.
Starting at 3/1/1/1/1 you could max out 5 skills for 60 DCs or 3 (3/3/3/1/1) for 30 DCs.
Starting at 10 x 1 you could max out 10 skills for 150 DCs.

I really would be surprised if anybody paid DCs to max out their ranking in more than 2-3 jobs over the course of a career - DCs are just too useful for other things.

EDIT: That being said, I think Disco had indicated that it was not possible to add extra job points to a character. :wink:

What's with the kooky job limitations?

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