Woo!


SD's getting some love finally.

Could we have some more details about the feat though, cause i take it the info from summons tab is outdated?

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Mark it zero!

I'm pretty sure it scales in a similar manner as wizards' familiars and druid animal companions.

I hope you're not asking for specific stats, because the chances of them releasing those are slim to none.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Why would that be? The summons tab gives accurate information for how familiars and companions are scaling, it also describes how Epic Fiend and (previous) Epic Shadowlord scaled too, so how is that information super secret all of a sudden?

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Mark it zero!

The summons sidebar does not list specific stats. It lists an adjustment that they all get per level, but it doesn't list each familiar's specific stats. Needless to say, your level 20 epic shadowlord will be stronger than your level 19 and below ones.

Does nobody like surprises anymore?

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Surprises put people in inequal positions. There's no reason to withold information and create lines between those in the know and the casual players. Some players can ask their friends, may have epic alts themselves, or possibly are testers, designers or even DMs. Others don't have access to such information and may be in for disappointments.

That doesn't mean they should publish detailed stats, of course. That's messy and excessive. But I think knowledge about progression, benchmark levels, and the general role of every summon should be publically available. Many character concepts and builds need such information. And while you may argue you should just pick something that "feels" good IC at a given moment, the fact is that everyone in the know will use their knowledge to their benefit. That's why it's fair that everyone has the same advantage.

I used to play on a server where the standard answer to everything was FOIG (Find Out In Game). You can imagine how frustrating and unfair that is to players who've just arrived, compared to those who know everyone and have already played half a dozen PCs to a high level and tried out most mechanisms etc. It's a form of metagaming: two PCs created at the same time should be on the same line, but the one played by the more experienced player will have an obvious advantage. To some extent this is inevitable, and even OK: we don't want to spoil quests and areas to people because they also give OOC enjoyment. But stuff like spell and summon stats or item availability (but probably not locations) are the kind of OOC knowledge that experienced players import on their new PCs all the time. That's why it's important they're not a secret.

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Sounds like you're condoning metagaming.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

There's no point in either condoning or condemning something that is an inevitable fact. I'm just acknowledging the actual state of affairs. It happens, it can't be controlled, and people aren't even psychologically capable of shutting out information they have. Denying the real phenomenon and the inequality it causes is naive, even if it might seem ideologically commendable.

I'm not even sure if it's technically metagaming, because the feats and levels you take don't directly translate into IC actions based on IC knowledge. They're part of the "game" aspect of a "role-playing game." Choosing to take one more level in class X pre-epic because I know it gives me better saves progression is not exactly an IC decision. Everyone who does that "metagames" in a way. There's no difference to someone choosing to take one more level in class X because they know that's when their Summon Y reaches a new level of power. (Not every summon scales linearly every level.)

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I guess I don't see the importance in knowing all that. For me, the fun is in summoning the thing and taking it places to see what it can do.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Perhaps, Derk. But it could be much less fun to be disappointed in the effectiveness of your character, after you've spent all that time working to see what will happen. It's not about how you or I would play it, or enjoy it. There's a number of people with different opinions.

The disappointment easily diverted by a little more information. And excitement for a really neat addition could be helped by a little more information. I'd love to see some Shadowdancers.

Here's the bottom line that seems to have been missed: every PnP RPG game in the world lays out every stat is absurd detail. Why should a cRPG be any different?

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You dare mock the Tibbly one, catcherer of drowses?

In particular, the Epic Shadowlord will get its claw buffed as you increase SD level, all the way up to SD20. Its ability drains become more powerful, basically.

It also gets a self-buff when summoned, and that scales up to SD20 as well.

Not giving away too much there, like Derk says you should try it and see what happens. The idea of the scaling was to make it a bit more worthwhile to take the feat and the SD levels you need to get it.

If you don't see the importance yourself, i'd ask you not to hinder the attempts to find out of those who do.

IronAngel, you couldn't have said it better.

I'll ask again - team, please give us details on how the new ESL works.

Some of us don't like surprises, some of us plan their class progression for specific results, like pve or even pvp considerations.

Shadowdancer is a specific prestige class, there is no merit in taking more than 6 or 10 levels and going heavy SD build if one wants to be effective in pve, SD simply doesn't have any power increase that would help him resolve pve combat.

That's why i ask for this information, i just want to know if the Epic Shadowlord can now be a viable help rather than just a distraction.


EDIT:

Sure, i'll just make a new character right away and spend weeks to get it to 23'rd level to test it...

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Mark it zero!

You've had your answer twice now. By the way, the shadowdancer summon always was a viable help. Just because something is a "distraction" does not mean that it isn't useful.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

... I need to start charging royalties.

1 DC for every three uses of my image from now on, you!
Retroactive, of course, so you now own me a solitary DC. Pay up, or it's your legs, mate.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

We're on a server that, soon, is going to have color-coordinated team PVP with capture the flag and - if we're lucky - Capri Suns and Lunchables after the game.

And people are upset that there's a request for game mechanics the likes of which comprise the entirety of the NWN wiki and completely summarize the build thread that most people use?

That seems really unnecessary. Bring on the specifics!

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

What the hell is wrong with you people?

You do realize that "Systems" and "Modifications" tabs in the sidebar are all dedicated to giving exact specifications and actual stats on all kinds of stuff?

Yet some of you, right here in this thread, are fighting against sharing information about an exciting new change, that should by default be updated in a corresponding tab?

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Mark it zero!

Cool down.

As for stats, I don't know those myself, so I can't answer that question.

God damnit, where is the upvote button.

... Oh, right. Wrong site.

ANYWAYS. I would post the changes, since I made them, but I don't want to step on all the DMs by doing so XD So I will let one of them do it lol

Not Glimmer, obviously, because he fails at reading threads.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Fixed

This topic made me facepalm to read.

I'm not going to alter that old summons HTML page when the vast majority of it is completely outdated. I've been working on an updated version that's instead a forum topic (like the subraces and spell changes are now), so the details will be included there.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."