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I've witnessed a very, very, very, gory RP session. And i'm not light hearted. I laughed my heart out while watching "Brain Dead".

When I asked a player AND a DM about it, they told me if everyone agreed, it was -okay-.

But wouldn't the rules section need to be updated then? :

Quote:

Prohibited on Amia on any and all channels (including the Tell-channel):

- Cybering, or "You know what"
- Graphic torture, or "Gorey stuff"

Prohibited on Amia on any and all channels (including the Tell-channel), and prohibited to be included "off-screen" in ongoing storylines of characters on Amia (but may have happened before the character's arrival to Amia):

- Rape
- Paedophilia

By graphic torture, we mean descriptive and detailed text (emotes or talk) that includes violent scenes that leave little for imagination. This applies to equivalent things such as descriptive cannibalism, removal of body parts/organs or necrophilia. Non-descriptive torture, such as *Stabs his eye out* may happen on the Talk channel if all parties agree. Torture that's not consented to but must happen for the sake of the story, will be said to have happened in a "Fade to Black" manner. In case of disagreement, the offended party's and/or the DMs' view on the rate and acceptability of details counts.

If this is about the actual posting of the rules then if it's on the forums those are often over looked because the rules tend to be fluid at times. So I dont think there is an actual DM with the job title of "Forum Rule Fixer upper" though usually if you just PM one of them about it they can ninja edit posts to fit accordingly.

If it's about the actual rules on the text part of the site I dont think anyone but Disco has access to change that, so a PM to him would be required for a change but i'm doubly sure he is to busy with actual important things like running and maintaining the server boxes themselves to be assed to spruce up a webpage.

Most of the rules should be sought out in game in the journals and on the entry boards. Those are the easier to update along with the fourm posts.

Can I get an official ruling on this?

Oh and if it's allowed, and the group I rp with agrees, i've got this brilliantly detailed idea involving cute newborn babies.

Wouldn't be much worse than what I saw.

Might warrant an alignment shift though. *shrugs*

Are you looking for a DM to sanction whatever RP you intend to do...involving babies?

Seriously?

No, i'd like to give a concrete example of what I saw to ask if that kind of RP is allowed here. But i'll make it vague.

It wasn't a baby, but there was a " detailed chirurgical process on a living , agonizing being involving removing some body parts and using them in an extremely gruesome way, with sound effects and lots of details ". I am censoring this alot by the way. What happened is what I just wrote, tenfold, in regards to gore.

Is gorey torture RP allowed on Amia, and if so, what are the boundaries? What "crosses the line" ?

If you're wondering whether it crosses the line, it crosses the line.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion of how things should be. I do not masquerade this as a citation of any official ruling or DM stance.

psycho wrote:

No, i'd like to give a concrete example of what I saw to ask if that kind of RP is allowed here. But i'll make it vague.

It wasn't a baby, but there was a " detailed chirurgical process on a living , agonizing being involving removing some body parts and using them in an extremely gruesome way, with sound effects and lots of details ". I am censoring this alot by the way. What happened is what I just wrote, tenfold, in regards to gore.

Is gorey torture RP allowed on Amia, and if so, what are the boundaries? What "crosses the line" ?

Since you're asking about a specific event and asking for an answer from DMs, you might as well send a pm to one of the DMs with just a bit more detail about the specific situation to get a ruling. If you're worried about it, you already know you have a right to know if it's allowed. If it bothered you OOC'ly, you have every right to ask, whether it's allowed or not. So go ahead and PM a DM. You have screenshots?

Edit: ...

Gorey torture is allowed. However, everyone involved, especially the victim, has to be OOCly OK with it. And you do have a right to nix it if things go too far in any involved party's opinion or you change your mind. This includes onlookers. We want people to have fun and RP things out here, but we don't want some people to have fun and others need to seek the nearest toilet to divest themselves of their last meal.

Yea, thats rules a bit out of date.

I'm the one who they spoke to. Basically we are not a PG13 server anymore. We are more, R16 (not 18 because your not allowed to cyber/do sex RP). Which means, ask permission of everyone involved if it's something that may cause offensive to someones sensabilities.

It sounds a lot like like its the specific incident thats on your mind, it would probably best if you pm a dm with more information.

Nekhy wrote:

We've changed a major server rule regarding adult RP, or RP that has previously required the consent of two or more above 18-year old players and must have been done on the tell channel. Please read the following.

The website and module rules will be updated as soon as possible. The current ruling is as stated below, and the previous rules may be disregarded.

Nekhy wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:!:

Cybering & Torture, aka Adult RP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prohibited on Amia on any and all channels (including the Tell-channel):

Prohibited on Amia on any and all channels (including the Tell-channel), and prohibited to be included "off-screen" in ongoing storylines of characters on Amia (but may have happened before the character's arrival to Amia):

By graphic torture, we mean descriptive and detailed text (emotes or talk) that includes violent scenes that leave little for imagination. This applies to equivalent things such as descriptive cannibalism, removal of body parts/organs or necrophilia. Non-descriptive torture, such as *Stabs his eye out* may happen on the Talk channel if all parties agree. Torture that's not consented to but must happen for the sake of the story, will be said to have happened in a "Fade to Black" manner. In case of disagreement, the offended party's and/or the DMs' view on the rate and acceptability of details counts.

By cybering, or cyber-sex, we mean descriptive, detailed emotes or talk of bodily acts performed with the aim of sexual gratification of the character or of the player in mind. Sexual acts that a normal, non-exhibitionist person wouldn't do in front of their mother are cybering. Kissing, hugging and mild expression of affection and sexuality are acceptable.

This rule may be defined further in the future, if such a need arises.

Thank you for reading! If there's any questions, feel free to ask.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35371

For reference regarding the "Not PG-13 Anymore" thing.

The rule is not outdated. As long as it's posted in R&L, and no official topic has been made to announce otherwise, it stands. Gers and Selvec are mistaken. The PG-thing had no effect on any rules or practices, as Disco explicitly emphasised. It was simply a decision to remove a shitty excuse:

Disco wrote:

The main reason is that PG13+ isn't our audience, so that shouldn't be a reason to ban stuff. We're no longer in the country with the loony judges, so that's not a reason either. I feel that we should be able to tell you what we want and why we want it because it is our own policy. So, no... I am not gonna change the ruling at all. I am just getting rid of lame excuses.

Disco wrote:

I am not changing the rules, just the motivation.

Gorey torture is not allowed (insofar as "gorey" fits the definition quoted in the rules presented above), even if everyone agrees. This is because not everyone can agree to it. 65 people can't all agree simultaneously, that would be a logistical nightmare, yet anyone can theoretically walk in on the situation.

If the rule has really, for real, been recently discussed and intentionally changed in the DM forums, then it's yet to be announced. But it's probably different people having different interpretations of the wording.

I know I'm not a DM, and this isn't an official ruling, but it is the correct information about the rule as it was intended and published. I wrote it (with Nekh, IIRC), as the result of long and detailed debate, after all.

So, can we get an official ruling here? Because I still play by the "as long as its not XXX and everyone agrees and is having fun, we do it"....thing.

Wrong Iron, least as far as everyone else seems to be concerned.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55082&p=903637&hilit=Torture#p903637

Non-gorey torture doesn't require permission. Gorey torture requires permission. As I said, the sidebar stuff is outdated as hell, and someone likely forgot to update the bloody thing.

Consider it "Pending Judgement" at the moment, till we sort this shitz out. Maybe we have all just been under the wrong impression this entire, six months or so?

Anyway, I stick by my ruling, and I highly doubt most of the team will ban someone for this happening in the past. Suggest people just don't do it till its all sorted.

Edit: Check back in a few days.

The lines have been rather blurred. By "gorey" do you mean the things described in the published rule: detailed removal of body parts or descriptive cannibalism that leaves little for imagination, as well as going to high anatomical detail?

To sum up the previous rule: torture RP requires consent (or can be objected to, it's not specified who has the initiative), and in such a case it will be handled in a Fade-To-Black manner. Torture of the kind of detail that's clearly disturbing and unhealthy is banned altogether, because anyone can walk in on it despite the participants' consent. In crafting that rule, the express purpose was to abolish the double-standard of some things being banned in public but OK in private, among consenting players. The goal was to make everything that is acceptable on Amia also acceptable in public, and stop the rest.

So if the rule is changed to your current understanding, it would make quite a jump: torture requires no consent/can't be objected to (and therefore there is no Fade-To-Black option in the rule) whereas descrpitive torture, previously banned altogether, is now alright in public as long as there's consent. Basically, the categories have shifted one step.

I don't see why you would want to change the rule as it's posted. It's pretty much perfect. We don't want to create different tiers of players in terms of how "hardcore" or "RP lite" they are. We don't want to sanction certain types of publicaly unacceptable RP as long as it only happens in private and after OOC communication. That creates cliques and eliminates the chance of other people getting involved in the story. Whatever you decide, you should aim to minimize such risks.

In that topic you quoted, by the way, Nekh is referring to our posted rules as valid. However, she just seems to remember them inaccurately. There's no suggestion that the rules have changed, and when I posted the explicit clarification of the rules there, no DM objected. So I really doubt anyone intended to change anything, it's just that people and situations change and people start remembering long-forgotten things differently.

Wasn't a DM when PG13 rule was changed, but basically that sounds stupid. From my experience as a player effected by the change, and now as a DM, I can safetly say most people I've talked on the matter have been under the impression that it required permission of all involved only, and wasn't infact banned. If the original intention of changing from PG13 was to make everything avaliable pubically, then I have to say thats not how most of the server has taken it, and the intention failed dramatically. Which would suggest a change has to take place yet again, as the majority of people have not understood the original intention of abolishing the PG13 rating, and are instead massively confused.

Thats all I have to say on it. My intention is to sort this out, one way or another, so there is no more confusion on the matter. Watch this space.

Last edited by psycho on Fri, Aug 12 2011, 10:06 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I've been on another server where mild torture RP, with permission, was allowed.

But something in the likes of casting -harm- and -heal- consecutively, 9-10 times in a row.

Or, say * Tightens the ropes around his wrists, causing excrutiating pain as he tends Ryan an evil grin, savoring every moment of it *

There are all sorts of people on the internet, some are perfectly sane, some are sick, some are eighteen, some might be fourteen. You never know who's watching. I believe there should be a line that shouldn't be crossed.

I am a specialised educator working with troubled teens in real life. I have witnessed parents file complaints about teens being allowed to watch pg-16 movies even though they where 16, for the content was highly disturbing. (Though they have seen pg-16 movies when the content was educational) There is no way to regulate the age of who plays on the server. I believe, if the argument is "most who play here are grown ups", that we should think as grown ups and realise anyone, with any background, can play here, and show some maturity in regards to this matter.

I personnally would not feel like "Rping extreme violence" , as I, for one, do not approve of it. Some violence can be appropriate, if it builds tension, enduces fear in the audience... But there is a limit we should not cross.

Perhaps we should consider thinking about our own selfish "wants", stop thinking how "cool" and "uber" and "awesome" and "pwning" it is Rping all that flesh, blood, guts spraying everywhere, and rather focus, with maturity, on what is "right". Does it bring more to the story? I've read official Dungeons and Dragons Books : ex: Dragonlance Trilogy... and it didn't contain much "gore". Violence, some...but not extreme gore in any way. The books where fascinating, and very well written, and -nothing- felt unfinished due to "lack of gory detail".

Also, do we want to become a portal that allows dangerous, violent people to live out their sick fantasies? Not implying in any way there -are- some here, but I think allowing violent torture RP is like "opening Pandora's box". You never know what might come out of it... And sometimes there's no coming back...

Sorry if i'm a party pooper, but I don't think this server -needs- extreme gore to make the RP any more interesting.

Finally, as I feel a " If you don't like it, don't participate in it. Don't tell others what do do" might just mysteriously appear as a response.

I don't like it.
I don't wish to participate in it.
I respect this server and believe, regardless, there shouldn't be "two categories". Those that want gore and those that don't.

Ask yourselves the questions: what's "right" for the server? What do we want the server to become? What do we wish it to inspire, to accomplish? What types of imaginations do we wish to encourage?

My 4256 cents.

psycho wrote:

It's all about what's "right" for the server. What we I want the server to become. What we I wish it to inspire, to accomplish. What types of imaginations we I wish to encourage.

Fixed that for ya there. Also.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Thats all I have to say on it. My intention is to sort this out, one way or another, so there is no more confusion on the matter. Watch this space.

You see, wisecracks like that are exactly the "opposite" of the friendly and community based spirit I tend to appreciate in this server.

That being said, the DM's have final authority on the matter. You are correct on that point.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Wasn't a DM when PG13 rule was changed, but basically that sounds stupid. From my experience as a player effected by the change, and now as a DM, I can safetly say most people I've talked on the matter have been under the impression that it required permission of all involved only, and wasn't infact banned. If the original intention of changing from PG13 was to make everything avaliable pubically, then I have to say thats not how most of the server has taken it, and the intention failed dramatically. Which would suggest a change has to take place yet again, as the majority of people have not understood the original intention of abolishing the PG13 rating, and are instead massively confused.

Thats all I have to say on it. My intention is to sort this out, one way or another, so there is no more confusion on the matter. Watch this space.

I think you're confusing two things. The PG-13 thing has nothing to do with this topic. It never affected anything in Amian rule and practice. This was clearly and repeatedly stated in the original topic. If somebody thought dropping the PG-13 rating actually changed anything other than the conscience of the DMs making policies, then that can only be because they didn't read the announcement.

The torture rules were put in place well, well before Disco's new position. One and a half years, pretty much.

But thanks for looking into sorting it out!

Edit: I wouldn't put it as dramatically as psycho, but he's got the gist of it: it is about what we want the server to be like. I like to think of it in terms of genre: do we want to present ourselves as a snuff RP server, a high fantasy server, or a sandbox server where anything goes? I personally don't care a lot, as long as the rules are interpreted consistently, but I'd rather we be snuff or fantasy, and not a sandbox. People need to be on the same page about what to expect in this area, IMO. A situation where people can't RP with eachother or have to interrupt it OOC due to different expectations and tastes is the worst possible option.

My only two cents:
If that kind of torture is allowed, we should make more of an effort to steer away from "This is a server appropriate for families", because at that point....it's not. I would -not- be ok with my 14 year old RPing graphic torture. But unless we demand ID scans...we're up shit creek. So let's allow it, if the userbase wants, but let's also put it out there so that we parents can say "yeah no. This isn't cool for my (insert age) kid."
Me? I'm perrrrfectly fine with some freakish nasty shit. But I also think if you aren't, you should have a clear picture of what you may see here.

Amia steered away from that when we took away the PG13 rating Axl. Amia's more like R16 now, or M.

Anyway, thats why you'd require permission of all present if it was allowed. It would require a 14 year old permisson. I'd think most 14 year olds would say "no" to such, as it would be uncomfortable. One that says "yes" probably needs to have a chat to their parents.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Anyway, thats why you'd require permission of all present if it was allowed. It would require a 14 year old permisson. I'd think most 14 year olds would say "no" to such, as it would be uncomfortable. One that says "yes" probably needs to have a chat to their parents.

You can't really say that, though. A 14 year-old is more likely to say yes than no, and then regret it later if they're at all squeamish (or they just don't mind in the end, but no one's going to know either way unless that 14 year-old happens to mention they're 14). If these rules are in place because of the chance that a younger player may be around, then I personally think it may need to be changed. There's no way to know how old a player is, and you can't just assume all kids are going to say, "No graphic torture, please." If the goal here is still to protect children from gorey and uncomfortable RP situations, as you suggest, then it's better to just make sure it doesn't happen at all. In my experience with kids, a lot of them would give their permission without realizing just to what degree the torture is going to be described. Then when it happens it's too late and they've been exposed.

In my eight year experience as a specialised educator with teens, some 13 year olds browse on the Internet and search things involving horses and women, or self mutilation of body parts I won't mention. Half of them know what the video with two women and a cup is. just two examples. I could go on and on.

Of course, they definately don't do it when i'm around or on our computer.

Teenagers are extremely curious in general. Never underestimate them, that's how I see things, anyhow.

:wink:

Well we ain't a PG13 server anymore.

So maybe that needs to be made more clear in the welcom message on the forums.

Well that's something we seem to disagree on: you removing think the PG-13 rating affected or should have affected Amian policy somehow. Disco explicitly stated that he didn't intend to change anything other than the motivation for staff policies. Now you could say graphic torture and cybering isn't allowed because the DMs simply don't fancy it, whereas formerly hands were tied by the insincere excuse of "We're PG-13 and scared of American lawyers."

But the truth is, graphic torture was never acceptable in public (it used to be allowed in tells only, before the quoted rule issued in February 2009) and one major reason was that the DMs thought it was unsavoury. Even if it happened in private, a DM could always stumble in on it and feel sick. I'm not sure if many DMs were actually bothered by it, but it was simply a decision of what kind of an atmosphere and genre Amia should represent.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of proxy parenting.

If there is a 12 year old on here, I didn't give birth to him or her, so whatever the precious snowflake might be exposed to is not my responsibility.

As someone who has been tortured IRL, I find the "graphic torture" here is unrealistic and really very mild, and doesn't bother me a bit. You see worse in R-rated movies.

Hell, nobody stops dropping bombs because a kid might get killed, but we are supposed to censor ourselves because someone might read something? Really shows how fucked up our priorities are as a society.

In all due respect, however we see things here, it's up to the DM's to decide. I agree with you though Iron with most of what you expressed.

It doesn't seem too clear what's the definite answer here. Unless Selvec espressed it, though if it is, perhaps some other DM might confirm and we can lock the topic?

Anyhow, we're guests here, so if we're not happy with the decision, we have two choices. Deal with it or look elsewhere, i'm well aware of that.

Perhaps some player poal? Or perhaps not, as the DM's have final ruling. Though it certainly would give a better idea how comfortable players are in general with detailed, gory torture RP.

Edit: Graphic torture very mild.....very mild....???? You certainly haven't seen what I have, Janna. And I might sound purist and squeemish. I won't explain in detail what I saw as to not offend some, but removing a victim's face with a knife and wearing it as a mask to mock the victim's friend, all detailed with all the juicy, squishy and crunchy bits, almost every minute detail, in about 4-5 long phrases certainly doesn't seem too -mild- to me. And y'know, the way I put it makes it look like Sesame Street compared to the Saw 7 I saw. I censored this -BIG TIME- and wrote it about 20% gory as what it was like.

( Oh and btw, it was well written, I have to give it that...)

Gers confirmed, but we are discussing the matter due to the whole confusion.

So as I said above, watch this space.

Bump. DMs who haven't given their input in your private discussions yet, is it possible to do so and close the file on this?

To simplify for those who haven't followed the topic: does the old rule of "no excessively graphic torture, period" still stand or has it been lifted to allow for such if the immediate parties agree? Yes/No vote, I guess.

I clearly have no idea what the hecks going on. So someone else can answer it.

Simple answer: so long as Disco rules the roost, there will be no change whatsoever to the way the graphic torture rule has worked since the beginning.

Or the cybering rule for that matter, if anyone was curious. I.e. it remains banned period.

As a side note, after reading the whole thread, I note it seems that the OP seems to have happened across the original scene in question. Which for me breeds a new question. Under the rule it's allowed as long as there is the permission of all involved however it would seem that not all such circumstances are happening behind closed doors. If someone wanders into the middle of such a scene who is the burden on? The group to stop perfectly valid RP or the wanderer to leave post haste?

Certainly that person cannot unread the first part that posted when they entered but to stay and view more is a choice they make IMO

If I'm understanding this...

Yossarin wrote:

Simple answer: so long as Disco rules the roost, there will be no change whatsoever to the way the graphic torture rule has worked since the beginning.

...correctly, then I think your interpretation of the rule is a bit off. Graphic torture is disallowed, period. Full stop. Forever. Players do not have the right to waive their protections against being graphically tortured. This is for exactly the reason you mention: someone else (who hasn't waived that protection) might stumble across the scene. "The way the rule has worked since the beginning" is that graphic torture is non-negotiably illegal in all circumstances.

(I acknowledge that my "if" here is rather huge. If I'm in fact not understanding the ruling correctly, I'm glad to have my understanding adjusted by someone who can speak definitively on the subject.

)

I'm sorry, my interpretation? Did I even give an interpretation of the rule? I'm stunned I cared enough to do so, especially seeing as how looking up through the read I don't see it.

Yes, I and quite a few others people, misunderstood. There has been some misinformation thrown about.

So make it clear, as Tormak said,

No graphic Torture. Full Stop. Thats that.

I'm gonna lock since this doesn't need to be discussed any further, and thats the end of the argument.

Sorry Yoss, I could have been clearer. I was addressing Scimiter; it was his interpretation I was questioning, not yours.

Rule about graphic torture

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