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Kallisti
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 Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 14:36 PM |
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Joined: 28 Mar 2011
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Lord Jarski wrote: I would very much rather have some dedicated spotters, than everyone being a dedicated spotter. Traveling in groups really does a lot to counter the 'helpless against an unseen enemy'. Having someone who is a spotter to engage an SD while the rest of the party provides him with back-up will really hurt a solo shadowdancer. And a shadowdancer with non-stealthing friends is going to have to take up a harassing role and be seen long enough to take some of the hitting/stabbing/ect or leave their party totally exposed. _________________  So Much Love <3
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serbiris
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 14:37 PM |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Lord Jarski wrote: And if your referring to spying through infiltration, not everyone wants to be a charming bard that can talk his way in to any organization and listening on the conversations out in the open. Don't even gotta be a bard (though it might help!). And alright, I imagine many people would prefer to play the ultra-invisible ninja than the clever diplomat, but ask yourself this: who puts in more effort, and who gets more results? It's proportional, and in a good way. Stealth spies are a dime a dozen. Any rogue who's played/grinded long enough can attempt it anywhere, anytime, the moment they walk into town and spot a group. The road to success in spying is paved with roleplay, not sets of really high numbers. Don't get me wrong, the numbers have their place. I mean, this is a videogame. And there are pros/cons to stealthspying vs infiltration. But why should they be the be-all and end-all, especially in an area which is so heavily based upon human interaction? Edit: That came off as more sanctimonious than I intended. To clarify, I'm not saying certain character types are less valid than others. Any but the most antisocial (whatever the form/reason for such a trait might be) should be able to infiltrate some groups (some characters more than others). Nothing wrong with not wanting to go through that... just don't expect spywork to come to you on a platter.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 18:44 PM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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Uhh..this is getting on a sidetrack a wee bit, this isnt about which one is better, stealth spying, or longtime RP spying, both have their advantages and disadvantages, both can be very rewarding, result- and entertainment-wise and both are needed in Amia.
Its not a question of which is better, its a question of whether its a good thing that pretty much every single character, regardless of their class, level, or skillset can auto-spot a sneaker regardless of the sneakers skill. And that is mostly done by scrolls which are available in large quantity in majority of towns.
Now if they were to be removed from the NPC stores, aswell as the morphing potions, which existance is in my eyes, a tad bit questionable, then the situation would be a bit different.
Mages would still have their access to the polymorph spell, druids would have access to the shapechange, and rangers would also have access to the spell, reserving their status as good "spotters" to have around.
Those with UMD, and whom want to protect themselves from sneakers, would need to find and do business with a PC who is able to either craft a wand or scribe some scrolls of the spell, thus paying a bigger price and needing to put more effort to the "spotting" ability than currently.
The rest of the classes, well, they need to find other ways of spotting sneakers, like, I dont know, Spot and Listen skill? Or using alternative, more RP-like ways to clearing the area from annoying spies
Stealth-spies would then at least be able to spy upon some people, rather than everyone being able to ward their attempts with a relatively cheap commodity found from almost everywhere.
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hendrack
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 19:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Quote: Mages don't invest in Spot because they don't get spot. Taking a wild guess, I can count the amount of casters without any dump-class that doesn't get spot on my hands. It's silly easy to get spot or listen as mage, but it's just more convenient to have a pseudodragon or umberhulk form around.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 19:23 PM |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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@Jarski
I would disagree. Money means nothing to most PCs. There are also already transactions taking place for purchasing scrolls of Shapechange en masse.
If the thought behind or motive to this thread is "Why isn't it easier!? I want it to be simple!" then the only true reply I can give you is "Get more inventive with -how- you spy!"
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 20:26 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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hendrack wrote: Quote: Mages don't invest in Spot because they don't get spot. Taking a wild guess, I can count the amount of casters without any dump-class that doesn't get spot on my hands. It's silly easy to get spot or listen as mage, but it's just more convenient to have a pseudodragon or umberhulk form around. Well yeah, of course ;D Unless you are like my mage that is going to be 30 levels of wizard awesome without a dragon familiar
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 20:40 PM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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DustSpray101 wrote: @Jarski
I would disagree. Money means nothing to most PCs. There are also already transactions taking place for purchasing scrolls of Shapechange en masse.
If the thought behind or motive to this thread is "Why isn't it easier!? I want it to be simple!" then the only true reply I can give you is "Get more inventive with -how- you spy!" So in your eyes, the fact that everyone, regardless of their level, skills, or classes, can spot a character that has trained solely for the purpose of being invisible to the eyes of others, is completely fine? I see your suggestion as this: Spies! Dont bother with hide or move silently at all, they arent going to do bollocks in spying anyway, just go RP more. If it was the real world, the indirect spying your suggesting would of course be the way to go. But our characters live in a world where there are people who can vanish to shadows, stay hidden even if you look straight at him, and so on. You cannot just neglegt that by saying: "Well, everyone can see you with that commodity they can get while buying their daily groceries, so dont bother with it, go invent some other ways to spy on people."
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Feonir
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 20:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.
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 Ill see if I can find some sort of pithy image for argueing in circles as well but frankly this topic has once more turned into a Shadowdancer V Everybody topic which really is the same one we had seven years ago I guarentee you. The even funnier thing is im fairly damn sure a long long time ago it was ruled by the DM crew that umberhulks cant speak common oweing to lacking anything resembling lips and vocal cords and yet im utterly positive that people speak normally while in the form too so. vOv Keep on sneakin on I guess. Oh and as another side note if we are going by which 'senses' things should have by that right any animal form, Wolf, Tiger, Cat, anything like that should have TS strapped onto them as well because nowhere in hiding in plain sight do you stop smelling. More so for adventureres spending every waking moment in their gear. Who here amongst the sneakers has ever rp'd cleaning their gear? Show of hands right now. _________________  "I'm going to spend all my money on ale and whores." "Okay roll for whores." "That's 1d4 whores right?"
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 21:02 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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Also, I have to agree that people need to stop bringing SDs into this. OP wasn't talking about HiPS, they were talking about plain ol hide/ms checks and such.
I have an SD char, and I plan to have more, and I'm not griping about SDs getting nerfed. Frankly, for balance I think it needs to happen.
So please, from one player to another, stop it.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 22:38 PM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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Feonir wrote: Oh and as another side note if we are going by which 'senses' things should have by that right any animal form, Wolf, Tiger, Cat, anything like that should have TS strapped onto them as well because nowhere in hiding in plain sight do you stop smelling. More so for adventureres spending every waking moment in their gear. Who here amongst the sneakers has ever rp'd cleaning their gear? Show of hands right now. Ha hah! Thats true, and I dont think youd even need an beastial nose to smell them, my own SD included. But anyway, yeah, this shouldnt be an argument between SDs and everyone else, HIPS is powerfull in combat, its getting nerfed, and it is a good thing, no question of it. Certainly, the vast availability of polymorph spells is the most hurtfull to SDs, since it negates their only offensive/defensive power, but it also negates the use of hide/ms for every other class with them as class skills, be it bard, assassin, ranger or plain rogue. HIPS isnt required for stealth nor spying. I just fail to see as to why the entire server population needs to have easy access to a spell that effectively eliminates all stealth. EDIT: Few questions have risen to me. One I asked earlier already. How does the Umber Hulks tremorsense work indoors? Say at a room at the second floor? Wooden house. What if the sneaker was standing...say..on a chair? can it sense the tremors on the planks of the wooden floor, caused by the faint shaking of the chair or what? EDIT AGAIN: www.wizards.com says that "A creature with tremorsense, an extraordinary ability, automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range." Ground...What about floors? Are they considered the same thing? And what if you are only indirectly in contact with ground, like sitting somewhere?
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 23:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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In PnP Polymorph doesn't grant you any of the supernatural abilities of a creature. So in effect the tremorsense on the umberhulk polymorph form is wrong.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Ummma
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 1:36 AM |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: unknown
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MoshingChris wrote: In PnP Polymorph doesn't grant you any of the supernatural abilities of a creature. So in effect the tremorsense on the umberhulk polymorph form is wrong. Slight sidetrack: I never understood the zombie. Harm/heal are reversed, but you gain none of the undead immunities. Yay Bioware, for whom Greater Restoration is Necromancy.
_________________
Yay for Morphine!
Boo for having enough pain to have to use it..
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 3:57 AM |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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Lord Jarski wrote: DustSpray101 wrote: @Jarski
I would disagree. Money means nothing to most PCs. There are also already transactions taking place for purchasing scrolls of Shapechange en masse.
If the thought behind or motive to this thread is "Why isn't it easier!? I want it to be simple!" then the only true reply I can give you is "Get more inventive with -how- you spy!" So in your eyes, the fact that everyone, regardless of their level, skills, or classes, can spot a character that has trained solely for the purpose of being invisible to the eyes of others, is completely fine? I see your suggestion as this: Spies! Dont bother with hide or move silently at all, they arent going to do bollocks in spying anyway, just go RP more. If it was the real world, the indirect spying your suggesting would of course be the way to go. But our characters live in a world where there are people who can vanish to shadows, stay hidden even if you look straight at him, and so on. You cannot just neglegt that by saying: "Well, everyone can see you with that commodity they can get while buying their daily groceries, so dont bother with it, go invent some other ways to spy on people." Actually I am suggesting spying in plain sight. Anyone can hide. Most people do a skill dump and have ample oppurtunity to choose hide, let alone get a suit that makes it possible. That said, hiding based solely upon mechanics works great on spawns, NPCs... but what RP is occurring when you sit hidden in a shadow? Say you are simply hiding using mechanics. If someone drops a poly potion and spots you, you will be marked the spy you are as you didn't get them involved and they can't see anything you emote without being polymorphed. All I am suggesting is use the time to emote hiding there, let the group know, either via tell or what not, what you are using for cover to block that True Sight should they use the potion, or don't bother hiding at all so that you can simply interact the whole time via emotes that all can read and document.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 4:14 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Janna Ogder wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Quote: "hide bug when you come close to 10 feet from someone and they oocly see them", This bug doesn't exist. Cite real problems if you're going to argue against a situation. there is noting wrong with spychecking. Agreed. There is a tell on closeup sneaks, and it is WYSIWYG, not a bug. No there's not. It's only if they bump into you. That's not a tell that's player stupidity.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 4:16 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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DustSpray101 wrote: Lord Jarski wrote: DustSpray101 wrote: @Jarski
I would disagree. Money means nothing to most PCs. There are also already transactions taking place for purchasing scrolls of Shapechange en masse.
If the thought behind or motive to this thread is "Why isn't it easier!? I want it to be simple!" then the only true reply I can give you is "Get more inventive with -how- you spy!" So in your eyes, the fact that everyone, regardless of their level, skills, or classes, can spot a character that has trained solely for the purpose of being invisible to the eyes of others, is completely fine? I see your suggestion as this: Spies! Dont bother with hide or move silently at all, they arent going to do bollocks in spying anyway, just go RP more. If it was the real world, the indirect spying your suggesting would of course be the way to go. But our characters live in a world where there are people who can vanish to shadows, stay hidden even if you look straight at him, and so on. You cannot just neglegt that by saying: "Well, everyone can see you with that commodity they can get while buying their daily groceries, so dont bother with it, go invent some other ways to spy on people." Actually I am suggesting spying in plain sight. Anyone can hide. Most people do a skill dump and have ample oppurtunity to choose hide, let alone get a suit that makes it possible. That said, hiding based solely upon mechanics works great on spawns, NPCs... but what RP is occurring when you sit hidden in a shadow? Say you are simply hiding using mechanics. If someone drops a poly potion and spots you, you will be marked the spy you are as you didn't get them involved and they can't see anything you emote without being polymorphed. All I am suggesting is use the time to emote hiding there, let the group know, either via tell or what not, what you are using for cover to block that True Sight should they use the potion, or don't bother hiding at all so that you can simply interact the whole time via emotes that all can read and document. Doesn't work. Plain doesn't work. Their RP will be different because of the fact that they know you're there OOCly. I would be surprised if anyone could remain completely and utterly unfazed knowing you're there and I even include myself in that. It is a sort of unconcious thing.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 4:23 AM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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TormakSaber wrote: Doesn't work. Plain doesn't work. Their RP will be different because of the fact that they know you're there OOCly. I would be surprised if anyone could remain completely and utterly unfazed knowing you're there and I even include myself in that. It is a sort of unconcious thing. I have to agree on that. I've been sort of in that situation before and I had to consciously make myself forget someone was there. It actually leads to fun times, in regular situations, when you have to ignore that you can see something but your char can't. Helps when I think of LOS and such base don how my char is facing, or if wearing a hood/helmet, and OOCly ignore someone being there until they speak or mt char sees them hah. But that's slightly beside the point. All said, interesting discussion going on in here.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:12 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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TormakSaber wrote: Doesn't work. Plain doesn't work. Their RP will be different because of the fact that they know you're there OOCly. I would be surprised if anyone could remain completely and utterly unfazed knowing you're there and I even include myself in that. It is a sort of unconcious thing. That is true, you behave differently when you know theres someone watching, it happens in real life, and it happens with characters. You would need an immense willpower and inhuman RP skillz to be able to continue exactly the same way as if you didnt know anyone was there. If you know, and can count on the people your spying on to not gulp down a morphing spell right after you send the first spy emote through tells, then that is very commendable. However, when spying on a large group, with people you dont know, you can never know for sure that someone wont break out of line after your spy emotes and check for spies one more time, or just reduce the amount of valuable information they speak, or whisper more.
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:21 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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MoshingChris wrote: In PnP Polymorph doesn't grant you any of the supernatural abilities of a creature. So in effect the tremorsense on the umberhulk polymorph form is wrong. And for the actual topic, that is a very good point. If True Seeing was changed from Bioware-standard to a more PnP-like, why not Polymorph too?
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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True seeing wasn't changed to be more PnP, it was changed to be less X-Ray.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:27 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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TormakSaber wrote: True seeing wasn't changed to be more PnP, it was changed to be less X-Ray. Well isnt that the same thing? PnP True Seeing as far as I know doesent offer x-ray vision, nor does it help spot hiding creatures. So the current TS is closer to PnP than the biowares default one ever was.
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 8:45 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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So let me summarize:
-Polymorph spells are available to everyone, regardless of their build or skills, in the forms of scrolls, wands and potions.
-Scrolls are widely available to everyone in key locations, for a relatively small price.
-Truesighting/Tremorsensing Umber Hulk form effectively negates all stealth, regardless of the sneakers skill.
-In PnP, Umber Hulk form wouldnt get the truesight/tremorsense.
-The existence of Polymorphing potions is questionable, since its a level 4 spell, even though the "subspells" are of innate level 3, I would like some clarification on how it is in PnP, or whether that is just another Bioware oddity.
In my eyes, the spell in question would need, if not a tweak, then at least a limited availability.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:02 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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You are summarizing the bible to the preacher, thanks.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:15 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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Bible is a big book  Anyway, I just wanted to get back on the topic, its not about True Seeing-spell, Shadowdancers, RP-spying or anything else. Its about the Polymorph spell, and what its doing to the prominent sneakers out there, and whether its in balance. I would still like some clarification on the existence of Polymorph potions, it is a level 4 spell, you cannot make them as a PC, so why are they around? The forms have innate levels of 3, but is that just Bioware oddity? If it is, is it a proper justification to have those potions around? I mean..if you want to be an epic sneaker, you need to be an epic sneaker, if you want to be an epic spotter, you need to drink down a potion, read a scroll, or wave a wand. Somehow, that doesent sound like balance to me. At least not when the spell in question is available to everyone with miniscule price.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:24 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No... it is quite about true sight and shadowdancers, tyvm.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:39 AM |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Wait... polymorph potions, right. Am I thinking about the same potions? All I can think of is the purple ones which turn you into a random creature... never actually seen them turn one into a hulk. Mostly silly animals.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Uberuce
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:41 AM |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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The best way of securing a conversation involve doors and movement.
Nerf doors? Limited doorability? All charscters under level 27 must be at 50% movespeed?
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 9:50 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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serbiris wrote: Wait... polymorph potions, right. Am I thinking about the same potions? All I can think of is the purple ones which turn you into a random creature... never actually seen them turn one into a hulk. Mostly silly animals. I dont know, ive never drank one, is there like a chance to get Umber Hulk or some other nastier form? Or does the potion just make you furry and cute? What potions was the topic starter talking about then? Do Polymorph Self potions even exist in Amia? xD Can you become an Umber Hulk by drinking a potion? If not..part of my rantings have gone in vain! Although I can bathe in victory for one of my rantings, the removal of the potions, became true suddenly.
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Amarice-Elaraliel
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Posted: Fri, Jul 29 2011, 11:01 AM |
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DM
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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There are potions of polymorph in the +1 lootbin. They have a pinkish color and turn you randomly in a troll, penguin, basilisk, red wyrmling and some other things I cannot outright remember now. Fey too I think.
They do not turn you into an umberhulk though, at least they never turned me into one and my charas chunked at least 100 of them in total already.
_________________  
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Glyph
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Posted: Sat, Jul 30 2011, 22:39 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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bio truesight is the bane of my existance, that and fear auras, both of which dragons usually have and are thus utterly impossible to sneak by/up to. there are prestige classes designed around sneaking dragons but that ain't happening in nwn.
I gotta agree with the points made about level 30 sneakers being spotted by level 4 joe blows as you put it, I can think of at least 5 feats I would use on a build like that, into epic levels and all, seams like a bit of a waste if thats part of your concept that it will just fail just because. also hips only breaks line of sight, pure rogues can do just as well using terrain, naiv is correct, need say no more yup.
if I had to suggest something other than fix it >_> I would go with cornersneak more and pray. hug the wall and you might not get spotted? *shrug*
..yea im still around, working on a new concept, mulling it over still and whatnot.
correct me if im wrong but in the case of not using true sight, invisible people can be 'seen' with listen, something I recall from wizard building. (if your wizard has no hide/ms, its useful to max ms rather than hide for this reason..at least thats how i remember it? >_>)
I guess what im saying is if your build has gone max hide/ms over damage or ab or armour or anything else why shouldn't you get the same benefits without such as loss as bio true sight killing your whole concept, or something. peace im out.
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wereguy2
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Posted: Sun, Jul 31 2011, 5:10 AM |
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Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote: There are potions of polymorph in the +1 lootbin. They have a pinkish color and turn you randomly in a troll, penguin, basilisk, red wyrmling and some other things I cannot outright remember now. Fey too I think.
They do not turn you into an umberhulk though, at least they never turned me into one and my charas chunked at least 100 of them in total already.
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Amarice-Elaraliel
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Posted: Sun, Jul 31 2011, 12:06 PM |
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Yes red wyrmling can see people who hide... but honestly, the potions are random.
Do you really think someone would chunk 10 of those in hope he gets just that shape at some point? Also any spy with half a brain would be further away by the time he chunked the first few potions. -.-
_________________
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Ummma
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Posted: Sun, Jul 31 2011, 12:32 PM |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: unknown
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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote: but honestly, the potions are random. That's true. The deep-fried something isn't random though.
_________________
Yay for Morphine!
Boo for having enough pain to have to use it..
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Jul 31 2011, 23:53 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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it looks like bioware really did mess this spell up compared to the pnp version http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htmignoring the ethereal stuff, true seeing should not grant the ability to see hidden creatures, and should infact grant some bonus to search apparently. I have a feeling they mashed a higher level version of magical sight into true seeing the same way there are certain schools of magic with less offensive spells and such, ie not much thought, wanted to ship the game faster? who knows. thats what i think happened. nwn wiki seams to agree, use walls.
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