AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I was just curious, is there an rp half to the burglars, smugglers, and assassins in Cordor? A guild of sorts?

Not to my knowledge. I would say it is open territory.

We tried that for a run, but it tapered off. Not because the rp was dull, no, people had schedules and lifey things.
My advice is to start a business, and make yer friends fast.

Just an idea I was tossing around in my head, a group of criminals that actually try to play the long game with the Cordor government and it's guards, less blunt force acquisition of power (though there would be a little of that) and more backdoor deals, placing of informants, and bribery.

The issue i have with crime rp is that i want my chars to actually make profit, like in the millions. Thats one hell of a carrot.

Not just get like 300gp from a hit...

As a Cordor guard I can say there is pitty crime here n there, but rarely well thought out schemes. I highly encourage good crime rp within Cordor.

Would love to see it and partake in it.

Very_Svensk wrote:

The issue i have with crime rp is that i want my chars to actually make profit, like in the millions. Thats one hell of a carrot.

Not just get like 300gp from a hit...

well perhaps that would be where a Dm could come in occasionally, to stage them hitting a high end merchant, smuggling valuable cargo in under the the port authority, or even perchance making off with the gaurdsman payroll (wait, you said in the millions, yeah that's out then :twisted:

). Personally I wouldn't care if my character made disgusting amounts of gold >.> you can do that already with six people and an hour down in the Abyss.

Well-done Thief Guilds FTW.

I'll be a total fan-girl.*

*PM me. *cough*

Very_Svensk wrote:

The issue i have with crime rp is that i want my chars to actually make profit, like in the millions. Thats one hell of a carrot.

Not just get like 300gp from a hit...

"I only care if I get a ton of benefit from it at your expense, otherwise roleplay is a waste of my time."

Typical.

There has been one in the past, and health insurance scam a character of mine uncovered. This being some time ago when south cordor was still shady.

TormakSaber wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

The issue i have with crime rp is that i want my chars to actually make profit, like in the millions. Thats one hell of a carrot.

Not just get like 300gp from a hit...

"I only care if I get a ton of benefit from it at your expense, otherwise roleplay is a waste of my time."

Typical.

The experience i have is that a CARROT helps to boost such rp. Why?
I have tried crime rp and those my char worked witg gave up qhwhen they figured out that normal grinding gave 17668 times more.
Get what i am saying?

Probably not, youre so fucking quick to judge anyway.

The best crime RP I ever witnessed was my PC getting robbed by The Black Flag. There were like 6-8 of them involved and it happened in the old Cordor South. They took no gear, no gold, nothing but RP'd that they'd cleaned me out. The setup was made, the mark (my PC) took the bait, and away it went. Only lasted 15-20 minutes but it was damn memorable as it happened 5 years ago but I recall the details starkly to this day.

THAT is what crime RP is all about. RP gold, not real gold.

Also lets all be honest, gold carries very little weight. Your profit is information gathered, bribing for future schemes, access to locations unreachable. In forgotten realms 100gp is more than a lot of villages have, but knowing Duke Fred is sleeping with Duke Mathew's brother is priceless....

Charles1810 wrote:

Also lets all be honest, gold carries very little weight. Your profit is information gathered, bribing for future schemes, access to locations unreachable. In forgotten realms 100gp is more than a lot of villages have, but knowing Duke Fred is sleeping with Duke Mathew's brother is priceless....

who's got two thumbs and knows what he's talking about? This guy. Influence and power would be the name of the game, golds just for spending on auctions these days anyhow.

Charles1810 wrote:

Also lets all be honest, gold carries very little weight. Your profit is information gathered, bribing for future schemes, access to locations unreachable. In forgotten realms 100gp is more than a lot of villages have, but knowing Duke Fred is sleeping with Duke Mathew's brother is priceless....

Brilliant! Worm your way threatening, bribing, blackmailing, and doing "favours" for government officials.

trust me its fun...knowing naugthy things about the important people...

Very_Svensk wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

The issue i have with crime rp is that i want my chars to actually make profit, like in the millions. Thats one hell of a carrot.

Not just get like 300gp from a hit...

"I only care if I get a ton of benefit from it at your expense, otherwise roleplay is a waste of my time."

Typical.

The experience i have is that a CARROT helps to boost such rp. Why?
I have tried crime rp and those my char worked witg gave up qhwhen they figured out that normal grinding gave 17668 times more.
Get what i am saying?

Probably not, youre so [removed] quick to judge anyway.

Not picking, but it was they way you phrased it. I thought the same thing.

And the carrot is RP. The people you RPed with them were obviously fail heh

I get the point about gold; if I 'RP' robbing you, but don't take gold off you, I don't see how that's different then twinking. After all, actions have consequences, right? Well, the consequence of getting robbed is being robbed. Equally, if your character wants to be rich it's fair to the player to ask that in character enterprises offer the opportunity to actually get rich. I'm sure we don't want things like wealth or property being left up to free form RP, any more than the DM's let people give themselves Amia-based titles without permission.

So, yeah, criminal enterprises should have substantial rewards attached to them. The RP is the reward for the player; the gold is the reward for the character.

Yes, but you cannot prove someone's inventory has anything in it. You have to take their word for it. So you can't prove that they even have anything to take, so they can just lie and RP having nothing.

The rule is there, I think, to keep people from getting upset about it. Since, you know, it's just RP.
(read: There might be a different reason for why it's not required to hand over things in a robbery, but a DM can tell you that, this is just my impression)

TYP wrote:

I get the point about gold; if I 'RP' robbing you, but don't take gold off you, I don't see how that's different then twinking. After all, actions have consequences, right? Well, the consequence of getting robbed is being robbed. Equally, if your character wants to be rich it's fair to the player to ask that in character enterprises offer the opportunity to actually get rich. I'm sure we don't want things like wealth or property being left up to free form RP, any more than the DM's let people give themselves Amia-based titles without permission.

So, yeah, criminal enterprises should have substantial rewards attached to them. The RP is the reward for the player; the gold is the reward for the character.

Why would this be when there are zero consequences? You cant be killed (Permanently) you cant be stuck in jail forever and a day (ooc rule to release when nobodys around to rp) why should you have it any better then the rest of us because you want to pretend to pretend to be a thief?

Charles1810 wrote:

As a Cordor guard I can say there is pitty crime here n there, but rarely well thought out schemes. I highly encourage good crime rp within Cordor.

Would love to see it and partake in it.

Serial killers anyone?

Sunkin Sheep wrote:

Charles1810 wrote:

As a Cordor guard I can say there is pitty crime here n there, but rarely well thought out schemes. I highly encourage good crime rp within Cordor.

Would love to see it and partake in it.

Serial killers anyone?

When everybody and their mother can cast raise dead?

Very_Svensk wrote:

Sunkin Sheep wrote:

Charles1810 wrote:

As a Cordor guard I can say there is pitty crime here n there, but rarely well thought out schemes. I highly encourage good crime rp within Cordor.

Would love to see it and partake in it.

Serial killers anyone?

When everybody and their mother can cast raise dead?

Death is death, and should not be looked down or shrugged off. Just because you can cast raise dead does not mean it will always work. Serial killing done right for the right goals and aims in mind is extremely unhealthy and could generate vast amount of roleplaying both good and bad. Keep in mind there are npcs and pcs that are willing to give permadeath for the greater good reasoning.

Naivatkal wrote:

Not picking, but it was they way you phrased it. I thought the same thing.

And the carrot is RP. The people you RPed with them were obviously fail heh

Yeah. Inproper wording due to Phone typing. BLargh

TYP wrote:

I get the point about gold; if I 'RP' robbing you, but don't take gold off you, I don't see how that's different then twinking. After all, actions have consequences, right? Well, the consequence of getting robbed is being robbed. Equally, if your character wants to be rich it's fair to the player to ask that in character enterprises offer the opportunity to actually get rich. I'm sure we don't want things like wealth or property being left up to free form RP, any more than the DM's let people give themselves Amia-based titles without permission.

So, yeah, criminal enterprises should have substantial rewards attached to them. The RP is the reward for the player; the gold is the reward for the character.

OK, I killed you. Give me everything.

What?

What do you mean you don't want to do that?

Feonir wrote:

Why would this be when there are zero consequences? You cant be killed (Permanently) you cant be stuck in jail forever and a day (ooc rule to release when nobodys around to rp) why should you have it any better then the rest of us because you want to pretend to pretend to be a thief?

I think the obvious reply there is, you're right, there shouldn't be zero consequences. Thieves that go in for stakes need to be ready to lose.

I've had a grand thief plan to play out in cordor at some point. Kinda got side tracked by real life and now by playing other characters. But I fully intended to succeed or lose and I would have been very disappointed if I was out and about or respawned again the next day.

Only the most clever, patient and ruthless get to be top dog in the underworld.

Don't expect to hit the sky just because you say so *nods*

Could someone rob a place instead of characters for money?.....I mean instead of PCs could someone rob say Haul's Forge or Pinky's pawns?

I'd be willing to bet there'd be more reward for robbing banks than people off the streets.

And would the dms hand out a huge sum for a well plotted robbery?

In the Rp scheme of things most criminal orgs(including Black Flag) fail because RPly characters could make more money doing more safer things(like grinding).

So in a sense the bad pay off is made to keep players safe, but defeats itself because RPly.....my character wants money...not the fun of robbing people for nothing.

Why always theft? That's so boring. Infiltrate powerful groups, blackmail them, plant insidious roots of treachery and whatnot. (of course, not the typical join-the-faction-and-post-screenies-of-forum-faction-members-on-public-boards)

boobookittyscrew wrote:

In the Rp scheme of things most criminal orgs(including Black Flag) fail because RPly characters could make more money doing more safer things(like grinding).

This. There's a really important lesson here: if you want people to take part in non-combat RP instead of grinding you have to give them a carrot. I know it's nice to do something for something's sake, but let's be honest that we're dealing with homo sapiens.

Also, man, Rollins is everywhere.

You can make your own carrot. Blackmail, bribery, ransoms, forgeries, fake art, ect...

Think long term profits not moment highs. A year scheme means years of retirement n life time of prestige. What I'm say if you put forth the effert I havewitnessed crime rp profit huge, so it happens, but what's profit without the fun?

Charles1810 wrote:

You can make your own carrot. Blackmail, bribery, ransoms, forgeries, fake art, ect...

Think long term profits not moment highs. A year scheme means years of retirement n life time of prestige. What I'm say if you put forth the effert I havewitnessed crime rp profit huge, so it happens, but what's profit without the fun?

Please take no offense but I have an issue with this statement, not a really bad one but one exists. you see there are some people who don't care about the big picture in terms of all those intriguing ideas. They WANT the momentary high.....I don't mean playerwise I mean characterwise. An Orc who has 8 int, 9 wis, 6 cha, but 30 str, doesn't give a shit about the long term profits. He wants money..and now.....he's big...he can knock someone down easily enough, and I want him on my team...lol....but how do I convince him to look at the long term profits? He's a half witted orc who wants money then and there.

I made up that little scenario to point out that there are actually more petty criminals like this orc than there are persuasive mob bosses. I mean......you want diversity yet you want the most grand, intriguing, plotting characters, when not every criminal is going to be a cunning mastermind.

Some are just big and stupid...and they want your money.

Also saying RP is the reward in and of itself is just lame to me because it detracts from characters who are shallow, materialistic, and short sighted.

I mean seriously.....there should be more henchmen then mob bosses...but you and no offense the DMs too...all want nothing but everyone to be mastermind mob bosses...and that's silly.

The petty criminals from the above example do petty crimes and should expect the pay off to be just that - petty. Surely you do not expect a mugger to make as much in a beat down as someone who spends multiple months planning something up. You want quick rewards? I am pretty sure that you can do that as it is.

As for a reward for pulling off something grandiose, my advice would be - try it. I'm pretty sure that if you pull of off right (and with the DMs knowing what you are doing), you will achieve something. Something completely different then you might hope for, but such is life. As long as you don't try to bash a wall with your head while there is an unlocked door right next to you as players tend to do sometimes.

Hehe I was more meaning with the origional poster hopes to get a guild or something together. The quick every day crimals could become your pawns and both get paid n rob for moment gold. I do agree not everyone can or should be a mastermind.

Just my view is 1million gold is a lot of weight and volume, so next to impossible to expect to rob someone for that much. Mind I am not talking about houses or bars or mr 100bags of holding, just the every day Joe.

Ah, for the days when a Banite could grab a Cyricist by the face and drag them into a portal in Cordor.

Man, them were some good times. XD Boy I miss Vaylek.

Also, before you go butting into Cordor Politics, I strongly recommend you read Yoss' "Cordor = Serious Mode" post. That may alter what you think, for good or bad.

What I'm saying is what is the reward at all for even the intriguing plots? A thanks?

Why would the huge orc even bother to rob someone when he could kill a group of goblins in the northern outskirts for well over that amount?

Does anyone remember the character D'Bo(spelling) from the movie Friday, rolling up on his nice stolen bike, waltzing up and digging in people's pockets? He was better off then the people he mugged. In Amia that is almost an impossibility.

At one time South Cordor was bountiful in it's criminal RP, people were mugged and murdered there...it was made that way for a reason...now it's the exact opposite of what it was. Why?

As it is Cordor has been degraded to a starting location for noobs who leave. Due to South Cordor being changed to the most law abiding part of the city(makes no sense at all given the areas poverty lvl), lost the portal in waukeens making it ineffectual as a hub.

The truth is...it simply doesn't pay to be a criminal. And criminal RP is more a headache than a reward. Even if you come up with a good plot that somehow makes it past the Dm checkpoint(rarely does), most likely it won't succeed anyways, won't last. You'll be caught, jailed, and whatever else happens to criminals.

And no offense, judging from the reponse the DMs always seem to give in regards to criminal RP you might as well have an IQ of 2000 to even submit an idea for any real criminal RP.

I feel discouraged to even try to submit anything on that lvl to Amias Dms no offense. I've seen even great ideas shot down enough to never bother even attempting it....but i wouldn't discourage others from trying to do it. Though judging from the amount of actual criminal organization RP that goes on now(zero)...I'd say your chances of achieving anything, even in the long term, is slim to none.

PS I read the Cordor=Serious a while back.....didn't like it then, don't like it now. Reason being it actually hinders RP by setting an un attainable standard for RP that detracts from realism or even probability in anything but a perfect world, and that doesn't exist in any universe.

Edited: Another thing I noticed about Cordor=Serious is this: You have to take all sorts of consequences for committing any crime...but you can't dish out consequences...can I then flay my victim and perma them as I might be perma'd? no.....It's a double standard....which I why I never partake or care to partake in any criminal RP

I find the fact that you compare criminal level RP with farming goblins slightly disturbing :O

boobookittyscrew wrote:

Why would the huge orc even bother to rob someone when he could kill a group of goblins in the northern outskirts for well over that amount?

Uh... Roleplay?

Also, as a suggestion, if you want to mug someone, you probably want to do that away from a guarded city. I do not know how it was before, but right now it seems like they are pretty big on that whole punishment thing. That might also explain why the state of the districts shifted. As they do, so should the criminals.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

At one time South Cordor was bountiful in it's criminal RP, people were mugged and murdered there...it was made that way for a reason...

What reason was that? Or maybe its the same reason it no longer is the case?

jamnik_pucek wrote:

I find the fact that you compare criminal level RP with farming goblins slightly disturbing :O

boobookittyscrew wrote:

Why would the huge orc even bother to rob someone when he could kill a group of goblins in the northern outskirts for well over that amount?

Uh... Roleplay?

Also, as a suggestion, if you want to mug someone, you probably want to do that away from a guarded city. I do not know how it was before, but right now it seems like they are pretty big on that whole punishment thing. That might also explain why the state of the districts shifted. As they do, so should the criminals.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

At one time South Cordor was bountiful in it's criminal RP, people were mugged and murdered there...it was made that way for a reason...

What reason was that? Or maybe its the same reason it no longer is the case?

For RP?! That makes no sense though because RPly some characters want quick money which they could achieve through grinding instead of mugging so no it doesn't help RP it destroys it by making my character so stupid as to try to mug a PC when they can mug a goblin for more.

It was made that way to allow criminal RP. But as is always the case with criminal/villain RP(which is IC), victims went OOC on whine fits and got their way...and now South Cordor is a shining example of lawfulness.....tedious, boring, ununsed, unvisited lawfulness.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

For RP?! That makes no sense though because RPly some characters want quick money which they could achieve through grinding instead of mugging so no it doesn't help RP it destroys it by making my character so stupid as to try to mug a PC when they can mug a goblin for more.

And that sentence right there is once again, where you equate grinding mobs to actual human interaction. Sure, farming might be more profitable, but there are some for who the actual Roleplay contact is more fun then the end effect. Since you do not seem to be one of those people I wont argue the point, but imho such a stance will detract much fun from your time on a RP oriented server in general. Thats just my 5 cents though, everybody makes what they want out of their experience.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

It was made that way to allow criminal RP. But as is always the case with criminal/villain RP(which is IC), victims went OOC on whine fits and got their way...and now South Cordor is a shining example of lawfulness.....tedious, boring, ununsed, unvisited lawfulness.

Which means that it might be a good idea to take the mugging, short sighted, quick-gain oriented character away form one of the biggest, if not the biggest, cities and a noob starting spot and take it somewhere else, less "boring". I don't know about you, but I'm not sure if getting mugged by an oafish brute would be a good new player experience, baring anything else that might be wrong with that.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure we have to agree to disagree on this one, so I'll just leave this as it is.

Um.

"Ooc whining" is not why South Cordor was changed. There are actual RP reasons for it. The DMs here make a point of not catering to players who whine, but those who give salient, understandable, well-written examples of why things should change -for the good of the server as a whole-.
Things like GS and Dev Crit getting nerfed, for example. Years of well-thought and re-thought balance arguments and opinions given (and given well) by people on both sides.

Not everything here is OMG HORRIBLE, and immediately jumping to pinning it on the DMs is unfair to them, and to those of use who utilised it correctly, whether it's metagaming/not metagaiming NPCs, Dev Crit, or the hundreds and hundreds of hours the Dev team puts in making this server one of the best available.
If you want to start something, start it. If you want to contest something, contest it, but keep it IC, and try not to dishearten people who are trying.

Gold is IC. Our toons use gold everyday - even the most dumb goblin will figure out that adventuring gives more in the long and short run.
If you want crime rp to floursh, the reward must be high.

Because crime is about money... And getting lots of it.
And if the player know he can make the big bucks, then he will steer his chars in that direction.

With all due respect, Svensk, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Criminals have just as many reasons to break laws as lawmen have to keep it. Irae, for example, will break any law she pleases if the result is her gaining power. She doesn't give a damn about gold. Gold is useless to her.

What needs to be present for crime to flourish? One (or both) of two things:
-A lack. Be it a lack of gold, food, rights, or whatever. There needs to be SOMETHING missing that the criminals feel they want or need too much to get legally (Or in the case of everyone's favourite NG thief, Jean Valjean, something they desperately need but have no way of getting; something that truly makes the difference between life and death.)
or
-A reward greater than the risk. Be it money, security, food, power, or artifacts. Something that, should they get caught, is worth the trade.

That is your opinion, yup!

Interesting that south Cordor used to be a high criminal area. As a new player I have just walked through it (though I've noticed kids playing around!) as the area had nothing to offer except a merchant useful at level 1-5.

The problem I see with playing criminals is you can not avoid the metagaming of other players knowing you play such a character. If a crimeboss wore to rise in Cordor I personally would like it to be a DM pulling the strings and in such way offering rewards and rp-boon to players on that side of the fence

Also with the discussion of weather it's power or wealth your character requires put yourself in the criminals seat standing in Cordor watching the people walk around. Who do you see? Paladins, fighters, wizards, monks. I fear that trying to mug such people would require a INT-score of 8 or less if you get my drift

If you're planning on starting a thieves guild I'd recommend going for material things found in buildings. Robbing players houses, museums, temples etc instead of players because:
1. You do not come near facing other people who can recognize you.
2. Paintings and objects can be worth alot more and trying to fence them leads to more RP rather than snatching a purse of 10gold.
3. As a poster mentioned getting information can be priceless. Find the right buyer and you have a golden opportunity.

South Cordor is a wasted potential.

My opinion as a player. Not a DM.

AxlLeigh wrote:

Also, before you go butting into Cordor Politics, I strongly recommend you read Yoss' "Cordor = Serious Mode" post. That may alter what you think, for good or bad.

could I get a link to this post?

Cordor=Serious Mode By Yossarin, regarding a group of longstanding plots.

Thank you, and everything he's said is to be expected :wink:

gotta bet big to win big.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Because crime is about money... And getting lots of it.

Mock me for bringing in the real world, but mostly crime is about getting a bit of it. The vast majority of criminals are economic criminals, meaning they take to crime as a profession because they can't find a job that pays a living wage. This then leads to, like any profession, promotion, so that eventually you're making more money, or you're dead or in jail. For those interested, I reference The Wire, probably the finest crime show ever made. Amia needs an Avon Barksdale so someone can be proud to be chasing him.

Overall, I'm just going to say I agree with Booboo 98%. The 2% I'd like to add is this:

RP is not a discrete, non-combat, activity. I can't count the number of times my character has been out fighting monsters only to have someone - in the middle - say 'Oh, gotta go RP,' or 'I have RP waiting for me,' or 'I like RPing better than grinding.' Dude, there is no OOC here, your character is in character as you're killing monsters. You are role playing right now. You cannot leave to go role play because you are already role playing.

So when you say, 'RP > grinding because of real human interaction' I'm totally confused. Maybe you can solo areas but I can't, so there's always real human interaction when my characters are fighting monsters. And I know there's sometimes when you just want to fight because let's be honest, fighting monsters is fun, but don't set up this false dichotomy between "RP" and "grinding," as if one is inherently better than the other. Some characters are mercenaries, and they fight, day in and day out. There's good RP to be hand with one of those characters as their fighting.

When people in Amia say RP, I now here RP(tm), because it refers to this very specific brand of social interaction role play that doesn't have an equivalent in PnP. I'm not arguing that one is better than the other, but recognize that when you talk about RP(tm) this is something that's got more in common with free form role play than it does with DnD. If you like that, fine, but it's not for everyone. Being inclusive means offering carrots, as well as potatoes and broccoli for those that want it.

And I can't even imagine the nightmare of trying to actually blackmail a character with enough IC power for it to be worth it. Honestly, I see a lot of OOC bad blood coming from pulling it off without their OOC consent first; on the flip, getting someone to give OOC consent, well, good luck.

The criminal presence in Cordor.

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