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gbsedillo

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:12 PM

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Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, California

Seeing as my last post was swarmed by things completely unrelated to the idea that I pitched,
I ask ONLY for people to comment on the legitimacy of the Roleplay of my Lawful Good Necromancer.

Basically, Salamandastran comes from an ancient line of nobles that served their people with honor. Many ages past, a family of warriors, mages, and the like pledged themselves to the family Salamandastran came from for some great deed that his family did. This pledge, bound by magic and unbreakable oaths, committed this group, this family, to the service and protection of the line which would eventually bring forth this mage. This oath, to the shock of those of the generation to first experience the power of these 'Guardians', extended to death. Later generations learned how to channel the spirits of these guardians through a trinket, (still thinking about what it can be, so far I am using a small finger bone, but thinking of working it out), to call for the 'Undead'. These undead, however, are not unwilling servants, and seek to cause no malice. They seek only to protect the family line of Salamandastran's.

I justify my character being lawful because he believes in a structured society. He believes that through his work, and his research, he can possibly prevent all future plagues. One flaw of this is his disdain for drow, which he believes to be pulsing to the surface to rapidly, and may cause future decay.
His actions as a necromancer are Lawful because when he summons the undead, he is merely calling forth said guardians of his family. He does not use the guardians in a way that would disrespect the pact made and does not bring harm.

I justify my character being good because he seeks to right wrongs on the surface and combat evil within the depths of the earth. He has been alive for several decades, and has seen much damage that evil brings upon the landscape. Needless death, destruction, and havok... especially from the drow.
His actions as a necromancer are Good because he does not force the undead to come to him. He defiles no corpses, and those corpses that do answer only belong to the Guardians who pledged to him. They are not lightly called and strictly cause no harm to those of the Light.

Please only comment on this angle of it. I don't want it to get locked again because of other topics being discussed. Thank you.

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Charles1810

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:16 PM

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Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Hubbard, Ohio

I personally can't see a good character using undead spells specially undead of their ancestors. Would believe a good person would more wish their ancestors to rest in peace in the after life than brought back as undead. Also stronger undead the method that they kill is not very good since they litterly rip the life force from another person to sustain their own life.

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Jes

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:19 PM

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Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: Camriiole

Because the spells that you use to summon these "good" spirit warriors of the family's guardians are labeled very specifically by the rules of DnD, I would think that the only thing stopping you from using this as a legitimately good justification is a lack of request. Anything that turns against the rules and norms require a request, and I would think (just me personally) that this sort of thing is included. The reason being that by summoning only very specific "guardians" you are thereby changing the spell and its descriptors.

Then again, this is assuming that you're using the spells and not an item with an Animate Dead casting, or something. Which spells do you use to emulate this manner of raising the guardian spirits?

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Grymia

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:20 PM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

There is a form of beings similar to Undead but different called Deathless.

You'd need to do research on them in greater detail to see if they're something that's summonable or no (I THINK they are).

I'd need to doublecheck , I know one book they're in (Book of Exalted Deeds) and go over their basic information to be sure.

That's something to consider.. (Though I'm not sure if the DM's allow them because they do have slightly different vulnerabilities IIRC, again, it's something to look at)

Given what I've ready of the background and what you've described.. I could see it myself, IF you were allowed to go the route of the Deathless. (though I would be requesting were I a DM you to as soon as possible get Summon Reskins if you could to reflect the Undead summons)

DustSpray101

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:25 PM

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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale

Manipulating the Weave to create Undead via negative energy is an evil act. It does not matter even if you choose to tell the undead to save an orphanage, it does not make the act of creating Undead a good one.

Judging by the concept, though, I could see transmutation and enchantment working well, especially if you wish to animate objects or call upon willing souls to be grafted to bodies of armor. (Then again that could very much be like Full Metal Alchemist and get out of hand.)

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Grymia

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:27 PM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

Okay, Just grabbed my Book of Exalted Deeds and long and short the Deathless can be summed up thus:

- Deathless are creatures who died but returned to a kind of spiritual life that're staving off death for a short time in order to accomplish a righteous purpose. They draw from the Positive Energy plane and are little more then disincarnate souls.

(I'm paraphrasing the paragraph some but the key points are there)

Naivatkal

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 21:35 PM

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Joined: 26 May 2010

I just wanted to point out that, while the last thread got slightly out of hand the discussion pertaining to alignment is necessary. You cannot avoid it with the questions you are asking. However, it can be kept to a minimum and I do hope that it will be.

According to DnD rules if you are using the usual spells to animate the dead you are committing evil acts. The core rulebooks even say so, you cannot dispute that. However, Grymia is referring to alternatives that may work without doing such inherently (inherently according to how game rules treat the actions of players, don't bring homebrew rules into this) evil things. I do not know enough about such magical/supernatural things in DnD so I cannot really suggest anything.

I was originally, in the last thread, going to suggest baelnorns as well, but then read that they are essentially dead Eladrin only, and I don't think they would fit your case anyhow.

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jamnik_pucek

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 22:01 PM

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Joined: 19 Apr 2011
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Yes, Grymia and Naivatkal are pointing towards the right direction imho. Look around the D&D and FR lore for something that would fit what you want to do with your character without it doing things that are defined by the rules of the game as "evil" actions. Necromancy is pretty much out though.

Personally, I do not see a necromantic action as either "good" (violating the corpses of others) nor "lawful" (transgressing the natural laws of death), but I have no idea what the general consensus among the DMs is, but I would look into alternate means. I like the transmutation thing personally, but I do like FMA too, so I might be biased ;P

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Silvarus

Posted: Mon, Jul 18 2011, 23:47 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Dunno. The EO would smite smite smite no matter the excuse. We are not too keen on excuses.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 0:39 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

No to lawful good necro's. Thats all I really have to say on the matter.

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gbsedillo

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 1:20 AM

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Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, California

Well; worth a try. I try to RP around the evil factor with the use of an RP tool. But okay, no on the lawful good. Perhaps a lawful neutral?

By the way, it isn't his ancestors, but the specific group that bound themselves to Salamandastran's family.

If the original skins are no good, how many dc's would be required for a reskinning?

Before you smite; RP. Running around killing people is a dick-move. After RP is exhausted, offer an out and/or RP vs. Actual PVP death.

Well, the toon is not evil and reflects the cost of calling the "Guardians" as great and RP's physical weakness. Maybe a tweak that would drain a stat temporarily from him when cast to reflect?

I really think this idea could work, and some players think that is legitimate.

Will check out on this 'Positive Undead' thing, maybe I could get a DM to work with me here.
I don't want to play 'Just another Necromancer who is evil or one of the typical grey/white's '
Anyways, get back to me on all of this. Would like to know what's up.

(and against the lawful good part, perhaps he is Lawful Good, and only focuses the necromantic magics through the trinket in times of need, maybe a penalty is bestowed for a time through an alignment change? I dunno but this concept has lodged itself in me, and if you know my toon Varian, I like off-the-wall but serious RP. Let me know)

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boobookittyscrew

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 2:20 AM

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Joined: 09 Oct 2010

Actually the way you describe it I could see a lawful necro provided with one caveat. You could only use mummy summons.

As it stands mummies are one of the few undead who are lawful, and can be neutral or even goodly(as per Libris Mortis).

Many goodly folk that served well as temple guardians willingly are mummified in order to continue service. The mummy in question is decorated with glyphs pertaining to their religion or house usually. They always guard something(which is good since mummies can guard persons as well as places).(also per libirs mortis)

There are also spirits of ancestors who become ghosts....but usually mummies are the best because they are physical and very strong in terms of undead.

gbsedillo

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 2:53 AM

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Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, California

I like your mummy idea. I will have to talk about that with a DM. I think also the DM will not tolerate LG, so I will shoot for LN (to represent the good nature of the necromancer with the particularly *in faerun lore* negative aspects of the Guardian summons). But yes, I like yours. Thank you.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 2:56 AM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
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Selvec Darkon wrote:

No to lawful good necro's. Thats all I really have to say on the matter.

Servants of Osiris may want a word with you.

It all depends on the who/what/why/what-your-god-cares-to-say. But for the most part, extremely rule of thumb, almost a "spherical cow" situation, raising undead would be considered evil.

But to say "no such thing as a LG necro" is painting with too broad a brush. Just as I said in the other thread, there's nothing inherently Evil with the school of Necromancy just because some of its spells are inherently evil, no more than all of Evocation is Evil because the spell Unhallow falls into its category.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:01 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

No to lawful good necro's. Thats all I really have to say on the matter.

I'm not biting your little chord of flame. So please don't try waving it in my face. OP asked for opinions on his character concept, I gave mine. End Discussion.

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gbsedillo

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:04 AM

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Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, California

Who is OP, and does it have to do with my character?
What do you think of my character concept, with a tweaked Alignment of LN, and ability to summon undead without it being completely evil? (i.e. that idea I have been tossing around...)

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:06 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

gbsedillo wrote:

I'm honestly against any concept of a necromancer that's not evil. LG or LN. Go LE and I'd probably take a better look at it, or make a request in the request thread for an exception to the rule.

Thats a personal opinion, not a team one.

Oh, OP= Original Poster
It can also be TC, which is Thread Creator. Though I prefer OP as TC reminds me to much of Age of Kings

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gbsedillo

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:11 AM

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Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, California

I thought with my earlier posting (and postings) would give you some sense of a legitimate non-evil necromancer. If I can't get you to see that, just have me rebuild my whole character.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:15 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Your taking my post as if it's a DM decesion. Its not. It's a personal one.

By all means, go ahead and pitch your character concept.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:34 AM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
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I'm not trying to flame, Selvec, just stating my opinion is contrary to yours for XYZ. My apologies if it seems that way to you.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 3:36 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Would have been fine if you hadn't quoted my message. OP asked for opinions on his post, I didn't ask for opinions on mine. Anyway, sorted now. Back on topic.

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Lord-Hadeis

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 6:20 AM

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Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Location: Netherlands, Schoonhoven

Silvarus wrote:

Dunno. The EO would smite smite smite no matter the excuse. We are not too keen on excuses.

You better! That would be part of the fun of playing a "good" necromancer while using "evil" spells. "Unjust" persecution.

Silvarus

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 8:26 AM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

gbsedillo wrote:

Before you smite; RP. Running around killing people is a dick-move. After RP is exhausted, offer an out and/or RP vs. Actual PVP death.

Of course smiting is all about RP. Being a dick about enforcing the consequences of other characters' actions is damn good RP at that. All characters are not supposed to be nice.

EDIT: By the way, my main character IS a LG Necromancer... undead hunter. All hail Undeath to Death.

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Last edited by Silvarus on Tue, Jul 19 2011, 8:42 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Guardian

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 8:39 AM

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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.

First of all ...

Necromancy is the school of magic whose spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force.

I do not think there is anything else that have to be added to this one, simple sentence. Therefore, I have no problem with LG necromancer, although I am quite sure it will be extremely, extremely hard to play properly.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 10:38 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
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Round 2.

Fight!

Until I lock I mean.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 10:48 AM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Silvarus wrote:

gbsedillo wrote:

Before you smite; RP. Running around killing people is a dick-move. After RP is exhausted, offer an out and/or RP vs. Actual PVP death.

Of course smiting is all about RP. Being a dick about enforcing the consequences of other characters' actions is damn good RP at that. All characters are not supposed to be nice.

EDIT: By the way, my main character IS a LG Necromancer... undead hunter. All hail Undeath to Death.

Your main character is a Pure celestial also, kinda hard for Gagis to actually do something sinister... It's like asking a tree to be a rock.

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IronAngel

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 12:31 PM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Just to point out something obvious: the character concept is of course sensible and cool, but why do you worry about the alignment? Just start playing the character as Lawful Good (after ability approval, assuming the abilities need a request), and if the DMs consider you not to be Good after all, they'll adjust your alignment accordingly. That doesn't mean you should change your PC's IC behaviour in any way: he can be an upstanding citizen with high moral standards, as worthy as any paladin, and the cosmos just twists his alignment for its own reasons. Psychologically and magically, the concept is viable, so the alignment issue is really only a footnote. At the very least, your character is clearly Lawful Neutral which is still pretty damn respectable, objectively.

I'm afraid I can't help you with any particular spells that would let you do that. Look up those Deathless, though they seem like a cheesy way to avoid juicy moral dilemmas. Typically souls go into the afterlife, and I don't think different types of ghosts are actually the souls of the deceased but rather remnants and imprints of their personality on negative energy. If you have access to the Libris Mortis, look up how undead are created. Monster Manual will also help you. Entire families don't just become summonable undead out of the blue, but I'm sure there are some predetermined magic rituals you can find. Or make up your own and submit them to the DM team.

Last thread remained completely on-topic and you should read every post to glean their relevance, btw.

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gbsedillo

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 20:41 PM

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Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Location: Visalia, California

Thank you everyone for your ideas. I am just wondering now how many Dream coins it would take to reskin summons...

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Jul 19 2011, 22:05 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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10.

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chumpe

Posted: Wed, Jul 20 2011, 0:03 AM

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Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Location: Land of the long white cloud.

I hope it's not late to give my 10c worth but...

Even if Sal's lineage were selfless servants they would frown upon him for not being selfless enough to handle the problems he faced himself.

Also the fact that a necromancer would want to combat evil with another evil; would make him LE as a misunderstood good. Atleast that's how i see the alignment opposed to the common 'evil barron'. This was also the view of Greyweaver's Horsemen (the faction) .

Make what you want of it.

chumpe.

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boobookittyscrew

Posted: Wed, Jul 20 2011, 0:08 AM

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Joined: 09 Oct 2010

But some mummies aren't evil at all....hence he would be combating evil, with good. These mummies in question are willingly mummified. Usually they are religious and because they are serving sometimes in a religious capacity their souls are not as tortured nor raped when being made into an undead.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Jul 20 2011, 0:26 AM

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Yep. Undeath, when sanctioned through a deity, is most often a mark of privilege, nobility, honor, or merit(Baelnorns, Mummies, Crypt Wardens and Risen Martyr classes).

It's when you're forcefully bringing back a soul and recreating life through un-life where you usually cross the stream of gray into the darkness.

In fact, when it comes to the Mulhorandi, I always figured that's how they could say they hated things like zombies, morgs, and other evil undead. For them, evil undead are taking what is supposed to be a special gift given only to the worthy and righteous(life after death on Toril) and perverting it into something that is completely gluttonous, self-serving, and ultimately destructive to all life around it. This is in deep contrast to the undead that I named in the beginning of my post, which return(or stay alive) to protect their clan/family or to continue to do good in the world. Not selfishly preserving themselves to fulfill their own goals or avoid the final judgement, like a lich or ghost.

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