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The law/chaos and good/evil domains being added to each and every god is something present in D&D, so I didn't want to deviate from that. The only exception here, in fact, is Hoar, because it was thought it'd be neat to represent it's wildly differing faith through giving it both Good and Evil domains. I really don't want to drop that theme, as I think each god should have their alignment represented as domains.

When it was possible, I kept to the officially assigned domains for each god as closely as I could. Sehanine Moonbow has Chaos, Elf, Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Moon, Travel as her domains. She got Dream here, too, as I believe that's a more obscure domain not used in all documentation, but as she is pretty much the goddess of dreams, it fits her completely. Out of the remaining two that could be changed (Illusion and Moon), I don't really see either which Travel could replace and suit Sehanine better.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

The law/chaos and good/evil domains being added to each and every god is something present in D&D, so I didn't want to deviate from that. The only exception here, in fact, is Hoar, because it was thought it'd be neat to represent it's wildly differing faith through giving it both Good and Evil domains. I really don't want to drop that theme, as I think each god should have their alignment represented as domains.

I guess the only response I have to this is that we're not under any obligation to repeat anyone else's mistakes, but I do have to acknowledge that "let's not deviate too much from PnP sources" is a pretty compelling argument.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

When it was possible, I kept to the officially assigned domains for each god as closely as I could. Sehanine Moonbow has Chaos, Elf, Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Moon, Travel as her domains. She got Dream here, too, as I believe that's a more obscure domain not used in all documentation, but as she is pretty much the goddess of dreams, it fits her completely. Out of the remaining two that could be changed (Illusion and Moon), I don't really see either which Travel could replace and suit Sehanine better.

I'd maintain that either Repose or Travel would be more fitting than Illusion. Sehanine is said to make a practice of warding elven burial sites in illusions, this is true, but the illusions themselves aren't what she's encouraging among her followers. She's encouraging them to defend their burial sites and hold them sacred. To Sehanine, illusions are just a tool, a means to an end, not an end unto itself, like they would be for, say, Baravar Cloakshadow. I'd therefore say that portion of her dogma is more effectively represented by Repose than by Illusion.

As for Travel... if you're fixed on keeping both Good and Chaos among her domains, I guess I agree that there's probably no room for it. If it were up to me, I'd drop chaos in favor of Travel, but I can sympathize with not wanting to drop Chaos, like I said.

In any case, I'm sure this was just a silly amount of work, so thumbs up for getting as close to perfect as you have!

Well, Sune's post has ruled out the possibility of 7 domains. But I hope it doesn't rule out Garl losing his law domain. He's a trickster, after all. He shouldn't even be LG, really. Complete Divine/Races of Stone had it right when they moved him to NG. But they're Core products and are overruled by F&P, I guess.

We'll see. We're jigging domains from your (collective) feedback.

Any feedback to the protest of gnomes not sucking, however, will be summarily ignored.

No I think we're all pretty much in agreement about gnomes :twisted:

They suck. Lets remove the race entirely.
Besides that and my previous comment, I find little fault and its not nearly the disaster it could have been.
Now lets just rush it through and blame Tormak for any bugs

I vote genocide! Epic Gnomepocalypse event!

wereguy2 wrote:

I vote genocide! Epic Gnomepocalypse event!

Ooo, can I sign up for that somewhere?

Talk about the domains, not the darn gnomes!

Okay.

A few more thoughts:

A question... does the existence of a "Drow" domain hint that the game will be able to distinguish between characters based on subrace? I.e., will the Drow domain power give benefits to drow without giving them to other elves? I don't think I've ever seen any mechanic that does this, and if this one finally does, then I like it.

I share the confusion over what seems to be the complete redefinition of Oberon. He went from (Animal, Protection, Strength) to (Balance, Charm, Knowledge, Luck, Travel, Trickery)? How is that even the same god any more?

The more I think about it, the more I have to argue that Sehanine really needs to have Travel. (I don't care if people think I'm just whining about losing Haste; I'm not.) There are very few deities that are defined specifically as being deities of journeys (I can only think of one other, Shaundakul, but I suppose there might be more). A god of journeys needs to have Travel.

I guess I don't really know what the new mains do, so some of the inclusions or omissions that seem incongruous might turn out to be completely intuitive. But... Portal for Eilistraee? That seems way out of place. And I'm not sure what the Balance domain is going to look like, but if it's all druidy-flavored, Rillifane should have it.

Balance is the center of the Law/Chaos and Good/Evil axis iirc.

Ie Balance can either be NG, TN, NE or LN, TN, CN.

Eilistraee actually has Portal as an official domain. We didn't have that here before which is why we gave her Travel, the closest possible equivalent. Remember, I used the official sources as my main reference. So while you may think x domain might match x god, I'm going off what they're officially given and most of the time it does make a lot of sense.

Like I said earlier on, I don't know a whole lot of Oberon and it was all done in one big marathon, so there's oddities in places. I've already corrected Oberon now with more appropriate domains, however!

Alright! Okay, so here goes:

Mielikki currently has: Animal, Good, Moon, Plant, Sun, Travel. Personally, I'd remove moon and sun because they're not really fitting for her. I'd go with Balance and Protection. That one was the only other one I really was kinda "eh" about.

If I'm being a tad more picky: I'd remove Illusion from Sheela Peryroyl and give her Balance too. She's a TN Goddess who is for the balance of the wild and the tame.

Segojan Earthcaller needs repose! He's the Gnome god of the dead. I'd trade Travel out for that one.

Lastly, I also mirror Cloak and Dagger's statement about Istishia. I'm not sure magic is very fitting. But, to be fair, I'm not sure what it can be replaced with

. I do not believe any of the Elemental Gods should have Balance though, tell ya that much. None of them are about Balance, they're about an elements dominion over all the others.

-----------------

And also, I have to disagree with Selvec on his comments about Oberon ad the Seelie Court. Oberon is one of thee most nature oriented of all the Seelie. Also, Titania and Oberon aren't the only members of the Seelie Court. The Seelie Court isn't really a fey-only thing, it's a "Sylvan races" thing. There are gods to Treants, Satyrs, Centaurs, etc. etc. I think Oberon deserves some nature focused domains.

I know that Gunz, but Oberon still makes no sense.

Why is he there? and why is there not a balancing act on the unseelie side for him?

No, Oberon has no reason. He's just another god added because of the old "I'm scared of female characters" thing a lot of nerds demonstrate.

Ah, that's more of a personal feeling on the god, not really anything else though. The reason there is no one to counter him on the Unseelie is 'cause the Unseelie is only 1 god.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I know that Gunz, but Oberon still makes no sense.

Why is he there? and why is there not a balancing act on the unseelie side for him?

No, Oberon has no reason. He's just another god added because of the old "I'm scared of female characters" thing a lot of nerds demonstrate.

Kind of, but it's made obvious even in the lore who wears the trousers between them, which makes it rather funny.

You should actually read up on Isitithia before making that qualification Gunz.

Istiathia shouldn't be magic. Renewal works I guess. Renawal because Istithia is all about the cycle etc.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Ah, that's more of a personal feeling on the god, not really anything else though. The reason there is no one to counter him on the Unseelie is 'cause the Unseelie is only 1 god.

So is the Seelie.

In every piece of folklore its never about Oberon. He's kinda just tacked on at best, infact, some of the best stories don't even mention him at all. He's more a creation of silly Mr Shakespeare. You could quite easily remove Oberon from the pantheon, and Titania would cover his spot. Its the same here from what I see of the lore (which includes all the offical 2.0 stuff, Complete Guide to Fey (which I hate), Bastion Press- Faeries, Dragon issues and those articles on the wizards websites), he's just tacked on.

Its always been about Titania with the Seelie.

Anyway, I'll talk more about it tomorrow when I'm not sleep deprived and likely to bite someones head off for no reason.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Segojan Earthcaller needs repose! He's the Gnome god of the dead. I'd trade Travel out for that one.

Where are you getting that from? I don't see him.

MoshingChris wrote:

You should actually read up on Isitithia before making that qualification Gunz.

Istiathia shouldn't be magic. Renewal works I guess. Renawal because Istithia is all about the cycle etc.

No. Kossuth is renewal. If its not what its supposed to be, we'll burn it down, and try again.

Istishia is the opposite of renewal. If its not what its supposed to be, we'll forget what it was trying to be, and be what it is.

......Fate!

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Where are you getting that from? I don't see him.

O.O I... have no idea what I was looking at... I can't find him now either... How weird... nvm.

MoshingChris wrote:

You should actually read up on Isitithia before making that qualification Gunz.

Istiathia shouldn't be magic. Renewal works I guess. Renawal because Istithia is all about the cycle etc.

I have read about him. Tons of times. What exactly are you talking about from my statement? That he's not about balance?

Selvec Darkon wrote:

In every piece of folklore its never about Oberon. He's kinda just tacked on at best, infact, some of the best stories don't even mention him at all. He's more a creation of silly Mr Shakespeare. You could quite easily remove Oberon from the pantheon, and Titania would cover his spot. Its the same here from what I see of the lore (which includes all the offical 2.0 stuff, Complete Guide to Fey (which I hate), Bastion Press- Faeries, Dragon issues and those articles on the wizards websites), he's just tacked on.

Its always been about Titania with the Seelie.

Anyway, I'll talk more about it tomorrow when I'm not sleep deprived and likely to bite someones head off for no reason.

Folklore doesn't equal D&D lore though. Though it can equal Amia lore if you say so, as a DM. As D&D lore, I disagree that the Seelie is all about Titania. That's almost like saying the Seldarine is all about Corellon.

Istishia isn't about fate. Fate (and destiny and doom) have an implied end, whilst Istishia, and Istishians believe in a universal constant (in this case Water) therefore balance or renewal are the subjectively better domains.

Have you decided wether to keep the domain powera secret pr public, or are you still discussing it?

MoshingChris wrote:

Istishia isn't about fate. Fate (and destiny and doom) have an implied end, whilst Istishia, and Istishians believe in a universal constant (in this case Water) therefore balance or renewal are the subjectively better domains.

I can see renewal. I still disagree about the balance part though. Istishia doesn't even know the meaning of real balance. He's too one sided toward water being the end all be all.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

Istishia isn't about fate. Fate (and destiny and doom) have an implied end, whilst Istishia, and Istishians believe in a universal constant (in this case Water) therefore balance or renewal are the subjectively better domains.

I can see renewal. I still disagree about the balance part though. Istishia doesn't even know the meaning of real balance. He's too one sided toward water being the end all be all.

I agree. A god of an element is only pleased when everything is X - where x is their element
that isnt balance

Well, Renewal. It's a Kossuthian concept, and these guys are supposed to be opposites. I want a direct contrast to Kossuth on a thematic and conceptual level to match the contrast on the elemental level.

Balance is somewhat viable. But I think it's a little too neutral given that the other 3 all stand for something more clear cut.

I still think Fate is right. Yes, it implies an ending. Not for Water, the universal constant, but for everything else, that water affects. For Kossuth, it is not Fire that is renewed. It's fire that renews. Its air that frees. Its earth that solidifies. And its water that ends. They have a very clear "This is the way it is, and this is the way it's going to be" attitude, I think. "There's no getting away from it, no matter what you are, you'll all be washed away in the end."

Quote:

"At its heart, the Istishian faith believes that everything is interconnected and cyclical. Every one of the elements has its place, but water triumphs over all of them in the end, because though it may be transformed by its environment, it retains its essential nature and in the end in turn transforms the environment it is in. The Istishian faith teaches that: "Earth dissolves through water, fire is extinguished even by steam, and air becomes clouds and then rain, completing the eternal cycle."

("In the end" appears twice there. Completing, too. Fatetastic! )

There is a cyclical theme here too. But there's a fatalistic inevitability about it. It definetly strikes me that they think Water will eventually wash everything away to nothing, just like it was nothing to begin with. And thats the end of the cycle. And there is no clear implication of a belief that the cycle will begin again. I definetly think Fate is more apt than Renewal.

But water renews dried herbs, quenches thirst and gives life.. I think both fate and renewal fits

All the elements give life. That aspect of him is represented in the Water domain.

....This is a pretty deep argument for a deity that doesn't even get played (much?). I'm going to have to make my first cleric have webbed feet.

On the topic of domains, is there a chance that phantasmal killer could be removed from the death domain and replaced with slay living? Just makes more sense to me than using illusions.

Clerics already get slay living. Seems abit pointless to me.

Lower the spell level for that domain spell then? Bunch of cleric domain spells are already on the standard list.

Just a thought, I don't care about the change one way or another. Though I do like the idea of phantasmal killer there, silly as it may be. Unleash the fear of death! Etc.

Yes at a lower spell level. On the contrary, phantasmal killer would work perfectly in the illusion domain

Very_Svensk wrote:

Have you decided wether to keep the domain powera secret pr public, or are you still discussing it?

Well honestly, don't want the discussion of deity domains to get clouded by what those domains actually do for the player. One thing at a time.

Lowering spell level would put it in the way of several important buffs and reduce the DC. Still pointless.

Fair enough point selmak.

Jimbono, not all cleric players fill their spell books with buffs. I disagree with it being pointless, especially when it fits more with the theme of the domain.

We'll announce the powers these domains give when we announce it. Don't bother asking for it before then.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Well, Renewal. It's a Kossuthian concept, and these guys are supposed to be opposites. I want a direct contrast to Kossuth on a thematic and conceptual level to match the contrast on the elemental level.

Balance is somewhat viable. But I think it's a little too neutral given that the other 3 all stand for something more clear cut.

I still think Fate is right. Yes, it implies an ending. Not for Water, the universal constant, but for everything else, that water affects. For Kossuth, it is not Fire that is renewed. It's fire that renews. Its air that frees. Its earth that solidifies. And its water that ends. They have a very clear "This is the way it is, and this is the way it's going to be" attitude, I think. "There's no getting away from it, no matter what you are, you'll all be washed away in the end."

Quote:

"At its heart, the Istishian faith believes that everything is interconnected and cyclical. Every one of the elements has its place, but water triumphs over all of them in the end, because though it may be transformed by its environment, it retains its essential nature and in the end in turn transforms the environment it is in. The Istishian faith teaches that: "Earth dissolves through water, fire is extinguished even by steam, and air becomes clouds and then rain, completing the eternal cycle."

("In the end" appears twice there. Completing, too. Fatetastic! )

There is a cyclical theme here too. But there's a fatalistic inevitability about it. It definetly strikes me that they think Water will eventually wash everything away to nothing, just like it was nothing to begin with. And thats the end of the cycle. And there is no clear implication of a belief that the cycle will begin again. I definetly think Fate is more apt than Renewal.

Quote:

Air, Cold,Destruction Balance, Travel, Water

Its not. The implied ending of the other elements is covered in the part I bolded and underlined.

Fate simply does not fit Ishtithia especially given the fact Ishtithia barely cares about fate at all.

Balance however does fit: Water keeps flame in check, carves its way through earth in attrition, and is unaffected by Air.

Selmak wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Have you decided wether to keep the domain powera secret pr public, or are you still discussing it?

Well honestly, don't want the discussion of deity domains to get clouded by what those domains actually do for the player. One thing at a time.

Good answer, yeah. I agree

I can see both Renewal and Fate working. I still stand firmly that Istishia has zero to do with Balance. But given that Istishia's own dogma makes a claim that Fate mirrors the cycles of life, which he claims water lords over, I think Fate might actually be the right fit.

Righto then fate it is I guess.

Slight question im sure was answered by a sweeping generalisation before but may as well get into specifics, say a cleric has domains that do fit the deity, but since it seems each one gets 6 can they use their once per-ever change over to take other domains that also fit the deity?

Also can we give Sharess the Magarita domain as well? It needs to be party time in the bathhouse.

Feonir wrote:

Slight question im sure was answered by a sweeping generalisation before but may as well get into specifics, say a cleric has domains that do fit the deity, but since it seems each one gets 6 can they use their once per-ever change over to take other domains that also fit the deity?

Also can we give Sharess the Magarita domain as well? It needs to be party time in the bathhouse.

1) I think that's been given a yes before?

2) As a player with a Sharessin cleric, I approve of this

I'm really interested in community for my cleric of isis... that would be in line with her thought... also good to see you added plant since she gets agriculture *i was almost going to make a request to give it to her but having travel which will need to change would make it seem like I was whoring for the best domains*

Isis' domains were placed pretty well, I'd say. Travel fits significantly less than any of the ones she has. You'd have to really work to interpret fitting Travel in to her domains.

On the other hand, if anything were changed, I would hope it would be to add Charm, in order to represent her portfolios of love and marriage, which is extremely dear to her heart. But all her currently given domains fit perfectly. I would probably change Good out for Charm if anything, and only because Good is so generic and has always felt like a filler domain to me for most Gods that have it.

Just a curiosity, but can someone pm me or explain here why Kurtulmak was given Scalykind (a reptilian portfolio) as opposed to something more Draconic? Kobolds are Draconic subtype, not Reptilian, hence my confusion.

Very pleased with the Kossuth-renewal thing as well. Very validating for my lil pyro, Nina.

Scalykind is actually a catchall domain that seems to include Dragons. Check out Faiths and Pantheons and you'll see that it's actually a lore correct domain for that monstrously size Kobo.

Will do. All I have him listed as having in Races of the Dragon are Kobold, mining, trapmaking, and war. Also, if Scalykind is a catchall, then why is there also a Dragon domain on the list?

::shrug::

To be fair, Kobo's aren't dragons though. They're said to come from Dragons, but they're not actually dragons and are in fact coooooooold bloooooooooded ::sang like Rick James:: little lizards.

Cold blooded, yes, but still Draconic nonetheless. If they were purely reptiles that were simply fooling themselves, they would not have access to the Draconic feats, Dragonwrought Kobolds would not exist, etc.

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