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Blackdragon12121
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 Posted: Sun, Jul 03 2011, 14:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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This topic may well have been done to death but my recent play of a caster Palemaster has made me well...weep. Is there nothing that can be done to make the class more friendly to casters instead of fighters? I remember the issue with caster level was unfixable (which made buffing undead summons with negative energy burst fruitless) but being able to take epic spells at PM 11 would help a little. I've been playing around with the undead summons for a while now and i'm just wondering why the death domain summons are so strong compared to what the arcane undead summoners are pulling out. It would be nice if IMO, the discrepancies between the two could be narrowed somewhat or if the arcane casters could gain access to them because they are truly packing as far as summons go. Some might say that "you have to give up a whole domain to get it" but in reality, you get a giant boon in that you never have to actually memorize a summon spell nor take an epic summon feat (unless you want to) and it lasts 24 hours from day one. On the subject of undead summons, could we perhaps take a different direction with them? For example, making animate undead summon coporal undead mainly like your ghouls, skeleton warriors (i'd love to be able to summon a skeleton as an arcane caster but nothing seems to give you access to one) and it could scale up to low epic or something while the create undead lines could be reserved for your incorporal undead. Anyways, just my thoughts... 
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Sun, Jul 03 2011, 14:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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You won't be weeping forever.
_________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Jul 03 2011, 15:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No epic spells at PM 11. Absolutely not. Aside from the horrible, horrible problems with balance that dictates, it also goes against the basic rule of DnD spellcasting: You need level 9 spells. A 10 wizard/11 palemaster only hasa caster level of 15 (or 16?), and thus only has level 8 spells and does not qualify to take Epic Spells, by neither the Bioware nor the PnP perspective. Quote: I've been playing around with the undead summons for a while now and i'm just wondering why the death domain summons are so strong compared to what the arcane undead summoners are pulling out. It would be nice if IMO, the discrepancies between the two could be narrowed somewhat or if the arcane casters could gain access to them because they are truly packing as far as summons go. Some might say that "you have to give up a whole domain to get it" but in reality, you get a giant boon in that you never have to actually memorize a summon spell nor take an epic summon feat (unless you want to) and it lasts 24 hours from day one. The PM summons were done long before the Deathless summons and the Deathless/Undead ones have been redone so many times, the PM ones are indeed probably due for some retooling when they get a chance. Quote: On the subject of undead summons, could we perhaps take a different direction with them? For example, making animate undead summon coporal undead mainly like your ghouls, skeleton warriors (i'd love to be able to summon a skeleton as an arcane caster but nothing seems to give you access to one) and it could scale up to low epic or something while the create undead lines could be reserved for your incorporal undead. DC skin changes?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, Jul 03 2011, 15:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Pending some things, I'm going to actually do all the undead summons. They all blow chunks
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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jimbono1
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Posted: Sun, Jul 03 2011, 19:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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MoshingChris wrote: Pending some things, I'm going to actually do all the undead summons. They all blow chunks If/when you do this, i will love you eternally, unless that dissuades you from doing it. _________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 0:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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I no longer have any interest in doing this. Blame Jimbono.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Feonir
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 0:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.
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*Throws rocks and sticks and bottles and other shit.* Blame, blame, blame!
That said are the undead summons going to be redone so they are the new FOTM for all time? because stacking crazy ab or awesome spells or massive DR on undead immunities makes jesus cry.
_________________  "I'm going to spend all my money on ale and whores." "Okay roll for whores." "That's 1d4 whores right?"
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 1:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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I am well aware.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Selmak
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 3:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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So long as there are no sparkly vampires I'm fine with it. 
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oshizo2
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 6:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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This good news. I've made every version of pale master caster. Every option is poor in the extreme.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 7:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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I was hoping the palemaster class itself might get juiced up a bit with a few more abilities. I dunno, it just seems that once you're in a full party, all your left with as a caster PM is a few admittedly pretty lousy bone arm uses.
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Kannexx
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 7:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
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Granted I'm playing my first Palemaster, and this server has it's own little changes to things, but I gotta say....he doesn't suck. I'd say the starter Morhg is about on par with the starter Negative Energy Avatar(Velsharoon).
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jimbono1
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 8:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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Kannexx wrote: Granted I'm playing my first Palemaster, and this server has it's own little changes to things, but I gotta say....he doesn't suck. I'd say the starter Morhg is about on par with the starter Negative Energy Avatar(Velsharoon). The Negative Energy Avatar (Death Domain summon) at level 27 used to be awesome, not so much now. Atleast, no where near as awesome as its Neutral/Good/Kelemvor/Outsider counterpart. _________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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Kannexx
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 8:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
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Ah. I've only been here a couple weeks. I'm no where near that level. Just speaking about my low-ish level experiences.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 9:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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jimbono1 wrote: Kannexx wrote: Granted I'm playing my first Palemaster, and this server has it's own little changes to things, but I gotta say....he doesn't suck. I'd say the starter Morhg is about on par with the starter Negative Energy Avatar(Velsharoon). The Negative Energy Avatar (Death Domain summon) at level 27 used to be awesome, not so much now. Atleast, no where near as awesome as its Neutral/Good/Kelemvor/Outsider counterpart. Funny since I nerfed the Neutral one, and never touched the undead one.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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jimbono1
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 10:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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Well, the Undead one used to crit for in the 200's, now it goes between 130-150 maximum. Also, now you cannot cast Magic Vestment on it either, because you removed the armour, therefore it now has less AC. It has always had 2 attacks per round and 47-48AB cleric buffed, the Outsider one has the same AB, More AC, A tiny bit less health, 4 attacks per round, and crits 130-180. The undead one can not solo Fire giants, the Outsider one can.
_________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 11:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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I read that and my jaw drops. You are bitching about a summon that is your own personal weaponmaster? ARe you joking?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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jimbono1
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 11:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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If i was bitching i would've done it along time ago when it was changed. No, i am stating a fact.
_________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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Elorathall
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 11:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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I'll take it if you don't want it.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 11:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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I'd assume that the tradeoff is that the Outsider one does not have the undead immunities.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 12:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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DerkDerkistan wrote: I'd assume that the tradeoff is that the Outsider one does not have the undead immunities. Nor can you use Neg energy burst and give it +5/7STR either.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 12:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Actually there is an issue with the last summon. I will fix it.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 13:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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MoshingChris wrote: Actually there is an issue with the last summon. I will fix it. You're giving it more than 2 attacks? =D
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 13:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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What happens when you turn a formerly medium humanoid into a large humanoid?
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Garnith
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 13:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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MoshingChris wrote: What happens when you turn a formerly medium humanoid into a large humanoid? It's shirt rips off, while its pants inexplicably remain to cover the naughty bits. Also, it turns green and loses the ability to speak in complete sentences.
_________________
"Hi, I'm Garnith, and I'm an Invisophile."
Garnith, Ranth, Rick, Burick, Elail, Deryl, Kane, Rini.
Suggestion Rule of Thumb: Don't think about how neat it would be to use, think about how neat it would be for people to use against you.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 13:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Garnith wrote: MoshingChris wrote: What happens when you turn a formerly medium humanoid into a large humanoid? It's shirt rips off, while its pants inexplicably remain to cover the naughty bits. Also, it turns green and loses the ability to speak in complete sentences.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 14:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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No thats what happens when you troll me in a thread. I hope your not attached to your characters. . . 
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 14:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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jimbono1 wrote: Well, the Undead one used to crit for in the 200's, now it goes between 130-150 maximum. Also, now you cannot cast Magic Vestment on it either, because you removed the armour, therefore it now has less AC. It has always had 2 attacks per round and 47-48AB cleric buffed, the Outsider one has the same AB, More AC, A tiny bit less health, 4 attacks per round, and crits 130-180. The undead one can not solo Fire giants, the Outsider one can. All that as well as all the other cleric boons? My Palemaster is dying of jealousy... Seeing as improving the caster level of spells is no good how about doing something with the familiar? Instead of summoning a familiar, it could give access to a PM-specific undead summon; improving based on sorc/wiz/PM levels. Or at least let the Familiar improve with levels taken in PM?
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jimbono1
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 14:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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Elorathall wrote: I'll take it if you don't want it. I'm happy with the undead death domain, i just question why the Non evil one is so much more powerful, i use both with two different characters. DerkDerkistan wrote: I'd assume that the tradeoff is that the Outsider one does not have the undead immunities. The Outsider one DOES have Crit and Sneak immunity. _________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 20:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: jimbono1 wrote: Well, the Undead one used to crit for in the 200's, now it goes between 130-150 maximum. Also, now you cannot cast Magic Vestment on it either, because you removed the armour, therefore it now has less AC. It has always had 2 attacks per round and 47-48AB cleric buffed, the Outsider one has the same AB, More AC, A tiny bit less health, 4 attacks per round, and crits 130-180. The undead one can not solo Fire giants, the Outsider one can. All that as well as all the other cleric boons? My Palemaster is dying of jealousy... Seeing as improving the caster level of spells is no good how about doing something with the familiar? Instead of summoning a familiar, it could give access to a PM-specific undead summon; improving based on sorc/wiz/PM levels. Or at least let the Familiar improve with levels taken in PM? A little birdie tells me the next hak update may include new familiars....
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 20:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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Wait, we're playing the hint game again? Is it a peregrine falcon? 
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 22:33 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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DerkDerkistan wrote: Wait, we're playing the hint game again? Is it a peregrine falcon? Nope. That would beef up our casters too much. It's really just a Raven with a bottle rocket taped to its ass. It's a great summon though. Once. _________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Selmak
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 22:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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Actually you summon a naked dude from the future. 
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jimbono1
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 22:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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Selmak wrote: Actually you summon a naked dude from the future. Is this being tailor built to fit Svensk or something? _________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Mon, Jul 04 2011, 23:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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jimbono1 wrote: Selmak wrote: Actually you summon a naked dude from the future. Is this being tailor built to fit Svensk or something? I give my thanks to the DM team if that was so!
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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wereguy2
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Posted: Tue, Jul 05 2011, 1:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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DerkDerkistan wrote: Wait, we're playing the hint game again? Is it a peregrine falcon? That wasn't much of a hint... More like a blatant proclamation. Also, SONG DRAGON, HAHAHAHAHHAHAA!!!
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Jul 06 2011, 19:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Just got hold of the mummy on hitting PM 11. If the summons really are being upgraded please please please dont give them feats like power attack. The AI is just not smart enough to know when to use it. The mummy also has knock down...I just hope its not a cumulative -9ab...
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jul 07 2011, 15:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It is.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 14:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Just putting this put there...on the subject of undead summons, the BG has to wait till BG level 18 to summon a dread wraith. Could that be changed to BG 11 or something. He gets to summon that after his fiend upgrades...seems a bit backward?
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Sylfwe
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Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 16:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Location: Stalking around.
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TormakSaber wrote: A little birdie tells me the next hak update may include new familiars.... OH GOD. *drools with curiosity* The temptation to play just intensified. _________________ Get Ready for ItForum lurker.
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Magiros
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Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 17:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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Just a question. Are the summons of epic PM hard to banish? Because currently my mummy dust is harder to banish than my greater undead. Which is very annoying considering greater undead has more lvls than mummy dust. (I hope I recall right, will check in a moment.) Either it is harder to banish (mummy dust) or I am having epic bad luck with my greater undead feat when it comes to others banishing it 
_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm
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oshizo2
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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Magiros wrote: Just a question. Are the summons of epic PM hard to banish? Because currently my mummy dust is harder to banish than my greater undead. Which is very annoying considering greater undead has more lvls than mummy dust. (I hope I recall right, will check in a moment.) Either it is harder to banish (mummy dust) or I am having epic bad luck with my greater undead feat when it comes to others banishing it no you are correct from my experience. mummy dust is much harder to dismiss than greater summon undead. This continues even at level 30.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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Why shouldn't -EPIC- Mummy Dust be harder to dismiss than a spell you can get as early as level 12?
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Because the PM's Greater Undead spell like ability is supposed to summon the best undead in the game?
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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And why should it be the best undead summon in the game? You're taking levels in a class that gives you the best immunity in the game one level after the summon is given, at the expense of a mere 3 levels in a casting class and comparing it to something you need 17 caster levels, 15 spellcraft, and an epic feat for.
I fail to see how the PM summon should be stronger.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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wereguy2
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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A Pale Master is supposed to be something of a supreme master of undead, barring things outside the basic NWN class system. They devote their life to undeath - I don't see why they shouldn't get accordingly powerful minions.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 10:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Because in order of summoning ability regarding undeath I follow this:
Cleric with Death Domain
Cleric with Undeath Domain
Palemaster
Cleric
Generalist Wizard.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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jimbono1
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 10:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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Actually, supreme masters of undeath are True Necromancers, who use combination of Divine and Arcane magic to the best of its ability. No limitations. Pale Masters are powerful but often are used to lead groups of other powerful undead as captains and what not. Pale Masters speciality is its grafts, and that is where most of their power lays.
Also, i thought Undeath Domain didn't get a new summon? Atleast, that is what someone said on the Cleric Domain thread. *Shrug* No complaints here.
_________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 10:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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I have an idea for Undeath Domain that I'm going to run past Sune.
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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Thu, Jul 28 2011, 15:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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DerkDerkistan wrote: And why should it be the best undead summon in the game? You're taking levels in a class that gives you the best immunity in the game one level after the summon is given, at the expense of a mere 3 levels in a casting class and comparing it to something you need 17 caster levels, 15 spellcraft, and an epic feat for.
I fail to see how the PM summon should be stronger. Have you ever played a true caster PM? The question you should be asking is why do death domain clerics have the best undead summon in the game in addition to all the boons of being a cleric. Throw those of us who want to play PM as it should be played, a bone. Heck we don't even get half caster progression or whatever it was in PnP.
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