AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

Your suggesting Rogue when he should be going Monk. For purely Roleplay purposes.

Actually don't know why its suggested wizard when a chap that reads a book on philosophy whilst fishing absolutely screams Zen.

So for my mind nix the Rogue take Monk.

Other than that you really only want 2 Rogue.

26 Wizard 2 Fighter 2 Rogue is a very simple easy to level build on Amia that provides alot of leeway if you make mistakes. It also stacks a ton of feats in epic. (3 Wizard, 2 Fighter, 4 Standard).

Zen is good. Im personally in love with monks. Go monk for more awesomeness.

MoshingChris wrote:

Your suggesting Rogue when he should be going Monk. For purely Roleplay purposes.

Actually don't know why its suggested wizard when a chap that reads a book on philosophy whilst fishing absolutely screams Zen.

So for my mind nix the Rogue take Monk.

Other than that you really only want 2 Rogue.

26 Wizard 2 Fighter 2 Rogue is a very simple easy to level build on Amia that provides alot of leeway if you make mistakes. It also stacks a ton of feats in epic. (3 Wizard, 2 Fighter, 4 Standard).

Quote:

formal logic in his hands. Does this character sound like someone who would fit in? Of. Course I the player intend to have him engage in some adventures himself however he would definatly be something of a "reluctant hero" a little too cerebral and bookish for the trouble he finds himself in but able to get by through reason instead of brawn. If you can imagine a sherlock holmes type of mage but a bit more blushing and shy in his interpersonal interactions having

That part for mage.

Comeon, Just because it's a straight thinking logical type of person doesn't mean it should be a Monk, Even a fighter or murderous blackguard could enjoy fishing. But i suppose if we look at the stereotypes - Then yeah. Fishing = Monk. Anything else sounds 'Fishy'.

24wiz/4Fighter/2Monk?
Greater dispell immune and since you can easily nab the feat Spell;Penetration off an item, He's good vs high SR creatures, too.

Spellsword maybe?

Not saying it couldn't be a monk, but am pointing out the part that suggested wizard.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Comeon, Just because it's a straight thinking logical type of person doesn't mean it should be a Monk, Even a fighter or murderous blackguard could enjoy fishing. But i suppose if we look at the stereotypes - Then yeah. Fishing = Monk. Anything else sounds 'Fishy'.

24wiz/4Fighter/2Monk?
Greater dispell immune and since you can easily nab the feat Spell;Penetration off an item, He's good vs high SR creatures, too.

Spellsword maybe?

24 isn't quite Gr. Dispel immune, either.

Out of curiosity, what was the outcome of this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54448

I'm thinking of making a 2-hander but i've only seen one new greatsword added and well...it wasn't all that great compared to some of the other new weapons. Is 2-handering still the subpar choice?

Concerning the Wiz/Monk thing:

Wizard23/Monk3/Fighter4 or Wizard23/Monk6/Ranger1 or Wizard25/Fighter4/Monk1. 24 is such a silly level to stop at when taken into account that going 25 would get you round rounds (25 extended means 50), which makes your life as a buffer a whole lot easier. On the other side there is Monk3, which gains you a great deal of goodies. And for the record, CL 24 is immune to Greater Dispelling.

Blackdragon: Yarp, still subpar.

I'd go wiz 23/monk 6/rogue 1 for sure. UMD is good to have, and +1d6 sneak isn't shabby either. +7 AC etc. Use your fists for dodging arrows, spellcasting and boxing.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what was the outcome of this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54448

I'm thinking of making a 2-hander but i've only seen one new greatsword added and well...it wasn't all that great compared to some of the other new weapons. Is 2-handering still the subpar choice?

You mean greatsword models, or greatsword with powers etc etc?

just typing this up for myself. input is nice, if something can be improved.

human based earth genasi
str - 18 -> 26
dex - 13
con - 18
int - 13
wis - 6
cha - 6

12 fighter, 11 rogue, 7 wm

1. fighter - weapon focus: warhammer, dodge
2. fighter - power attack
3. fighter - cleave
4. fighter - spring attack, mobility (str 19)
5. fighter -
6. fighter - expertise, whirlwind attack
7. weapon master -
8. weapon master - (str 20)
9. weapon master - great cleave
10. weapon master -
11. weapon master
12. weapon master - imp critical (str 21)
13. weapon master
14. rogue (1d6)
15. rogue - knockdown
16. rogue (2d6) (str 22)
17. rogue
18. fighter - improved knockdown
19. fighter - weapon specialization
20. fighter (str 23)
21. fighter - epic weapon specialization: warhammer, overwhelming critical
22. rogue (3d6)
23. rogue
24. rogue (4d6) - epic weapon focus: warhammer (str 24)
25. rogue
26. rogue (5d6)
27. fighter - great strength (str 25)
28. rogue - crippling strike (str 26)
29. rogue (6d6)
30. fighter - devestating critical, blind fight

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Comeon, Just because it's a straight thinking logical type of person doesn't mean it should be a Monk, Even a fighter or murderous blackguard could enjoy fishing. But i suppose if we look at the stereotypes - Then yeah. Fishing = Monk. Anything else sounds 'Fishy'.

24wiz/4Fighter/2Monk?
Greater dispell immune and since you can easily nab the feat Spell;Penetration off an item, He's good vs high SR creatures, too.

Spellsword maybe?

24 isn't quite Gr. Dispel immune, either.

Quote:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Greater_dispelling

Sure is immune. The In game description is false

Quote:

The in-game description of this spell erroneously reports that it is affected by spell resistance; greater dispelling does not check spell resistance.
The DC is incorrectly reported in-game; it is actually 12 + caster level, with some vagaries in the determination of the effective caster level. See dispel for details.
Most of the spells of a level 24 caster are immune to greater dispelling, as the dispeller's best possible roll is 35 (20+15), while the DC is 36 (12+24).
This spell improves upon dispel magic and is improved by Mordenkainen's disjunction.

blackvswhite wrote:

just typing this up for myself. input is nice, if something can be improved.

human based earth genasi
str - 18 -> 25
dex - 13
con - 18
int - 13
wis - 6
cha - 6

12 fighter, 11 rogue, 7 wm

1. fighter - weapon focus: warhammer, dodge
2. fighter - power attack
3. fighter - cleave
4. fighter - weapon spec: warhammer, mobility (str 19)
5. fighter -
6. fighter - expertise, whirlwind attack
7. weapon master -
8. weapon master - (str 20)
9. weapon master - great cleave
10. weapon master -
11. weapon master
12. weapon master - knockdown (str 21)
13. weapon master
14. rogue (1d6)
15. rogue - improved knockdown
16. rogue (2d6) (str 22)
17. rogue
18. fighter - improved critical
19. fighter - blind fight
20. fighter (str 23)
21. fighter - epic weapon specialization: warhammer, overwhelming critical
22. rogue (3d6)
23. rogue
24. rogue (4d6) - epic weapon focus: warhammer (str 24)
25. rogue
26. rogue (5d6)
27. fighter - great strength (str 25)
28. rogue - crippling strike (str 26)
29. rogue (6d6)
30. fighter - devestating critical, epic prowess

Too much rogue, not enough WM, ending on 25 STR is bad, no armor skin?

I seek the Wisdom of the Builders in regards to a Monk/Rogue build that can be respectable both with twin Kamas, and with a Crossbow (Light probably makes the most sense).

Grymia wrote:

I seek the Wisdom of the Builders in regards to a Monk/Rogue build that can be respectable both with twin Kamas, and with a Crossbow (Light probably makes the most sense).

Dex based, 20Monk/10 Rogue - One of the better builds on the sever, In my eyes.
Wep focus/im crit kama and blindfight + ambidex, Two-wep fighting and Improved two wep fighting.
Start with as high Dex as possible.

Focus in DIscipline, Hide/Sneak and Tumble.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what was the outcome of this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54448

I'm thinking of making a 2-hander but i've only seen one new greatsword added and well...it wasn't all that great compared to some of the other new weapons. Is 2-handering still the subpar choice?

You mean greatsword models, or greatsword with powers etc etc?

Powers etc.

I'm hoping this post don't get in the way of people helping BlackDragon.

I wanted to run a quick build idea by you guys. I came from lower level cap servers, so I'm not very good with having.....well, simply, I haven't got the faintest idea what to expect or want at any level past...maybe 10. Mostly I just want to know if this build is viable. I don't care if it's somewhat sub-par, because it could fit the char idea. I'm just wondering if it'll be capable of doing....whatever it is higher level chars do, heh.

The build's simple, really.

Monk12/Sorc1/RRD(Bronze)17

The whole point of sorc is just entry. Atm he's Monk4, and his cha is 9, so I'm not caring about spells at all.

Not really sure if you guys need/want any other info, if so let, me know.

Thanks for lookin', guys.

And thanks Maias, as goofy as it is I might not have thought to post this if you hadn't suggested it, heh.

It'd help if you gave a few more details about your PC, like their ability scores and etc, but at first glance I'd recommend 20 Monk/1 Sorc/9 RDD over it. You're gaining on AC, damage, more or less everything for the sake of losing one epic feat.

TormakSaber wrote:

Too much rogue, not enough WM, ending on 25 STR is bad, no armor skin?

1. mistyped it at the top. I threw in one great strength later to make it 26.

2. what is the purpose of more WM?

12ftr/13wm/5rg - +2 ab, lose 3d6 sneak, lose crippling strike, lose ~36 skill points, gain one other random feat.
16 wm/12ftr/2rg - +3-4 ab, lose 5d6 sneak, crippling strike, ~54 skill points, gain 2 other random feats.

what makes that so much better?

3. no room for armor skin as is. what would you suggest removing?

2: More WM = more AB. More AB is delicious. It's pretty easy for an epic WM to be sitting at 50 AB unbuffed.

3: If you went more WM you'd be able to afford Armor Skin.

Here's the stats, skills, and feats as best as I can remember. Heh, only made him last night at about....2am?

Dwarf, forgot to mention that.

Str14
Dex15
Con14
Int13
Wis14
Cha9

IIRC Hide/Move Silent, Discipline, Tumble and....something else...are maxxed.

Expertise and Weapon Focus:Unarmed are my only feats.

I know I'm being vague, and I apologize for that.

Going only 9RRD wouldn't be too bad char/RP-wise. No wings, for one. I was liking the pumped breath from more RRD, but as I've stated, I have no clue what to expect from saves, resists, hp....pretty much everything.

I don't -think- I missed anything....

as I see it now, it is 24(lvls) + 1(wf) + 2(ewf) + 4-5(weapon) + 1(prowess) + 1(wm lvl 5) + 12-14(str) = 45-48 ab.

is that not enough to hit everything I need to hit at a decent rate? throw ikd, dev crit, sneaks, and crippling strike on top of that and it seems pretty efficient to me. How big a difference does 50+ ab make compared to 45?

EDIT: and wings come at lvl 9, for the dwarven dragon monk above me.

EDIT2: is armor skin better than crippling strike? It doesn't feel like it, but idk the numbers on it.

High AB lets you run Power Attack all the time for a permanent +5 damage. Much better than those sneaks because it multiplies on a critical.

And yes, Armor Skin is better than Crippling Strike.

blackvswhite wrote:

as I see it now, it is 24(lvls) + 1(wf) + 2(ewf) + 4-5(weapon) + 1(prowess) + 1(wm lvl 5) + 12-14(str) = 45-48 ab.

is that not enough to hit everything I need to hit at a decent rate? throw ikd, dev crit, sneaks, and crippling strike on top of that and it seems pretty efficient to me. How big a difference does 50+ ab make compared to 45?

EDIT: and wings come at lvl 9, for the dwarven dragon monk above me.

EDIT2: is armor skin better than crippling strike? It doesn't feel like it, but idk the numbers on it.

AB means a lot, but I don't know the high numbers.

Armor Skin is great, because +2 AC means someone might not be able to hit you.

You are forgetting that Crippling Strike only works on Sneak Attacks. And it only kills 1 AB and 1 damage overall. If this was a sneaky build, that would be great, but chances are you are not going to sneak attack that often. That's the kicker for the Crippling Strike/ more Sneak damage questions.

well, between ikd, flanking, and dev crit, I think I'll be sneaking plenty. I do see where you guys are coming from though. I'll prob modify it again tomorrow.

Ultimately, the optimal cookie-cutter WM builds are either 12 Fighter/16 WM/2 Rogue or 11 Fighter/19 WM (10 Fighter/19 WM/1 Rogue if you'd prefer Tumble over Epic Weapon Spec).

If you really wanted to RP some sort of sneak attacky Dev Critter, though, you can get away with 13 Rogue/10 Fighter/7 WM too.

I've run a 13/7/10 on a dwarf.

Loads more fun than the cookie cutter builds.

Having Improved Evasion as a feat is handy aswell given WM goes high on reflex.

Psh, fun is subjective!

I agree fun is subjective. And It was more fun running a build I made for my characters concept rather than changing the concept of my character so I could fit a cookie cutter build suggested in this thread. Amusingly enough I've never run a build to max level thats been suggested to me in this thread because it feels like I'm playing someone elses idea.

I agree with that. It's why I always tweak things just a bit to make them my own, even if it's not as optimal mechanics-wise.

I have a WM build right now that I would like some help with. I've already made the character and have the concept, just need help on some finer mechanic points. My current intended spread is 20 fighter/7 WM/ 3 rogue.

The main question is, should I go 22 fighter and 1 rogue? I would pick up epic prowess but lose evasion. As he is STR based, his reflex isn't all that anyway.

I also have a free pre-epic feat. I was thinking to take either imp power attack or imp expertise. Which would you all suggest?

Thank you in advance for your help.

What I wanna know is...how come we cannot have more models for the Katana as it doesn't fit with the theme of the world, yet it is still such a well supported weapon when the greatsword, which fits with the theme of the world is woefully under-supported?

Anyway, I have some ideas for new weapons. Do I make a new post or PM them to someone? Maybe starting a new weapon concept thread or something, so everyone can post ideas.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Quote:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Greater_dispelling

Sure is immune. The In game description is false

Quote:

The in-game description of this spell erroneously reports that it is affected by spell resistance; greater dispelling does not check spell resistance.
The DC is incorrectly reported in-game; it is actually 12 + caster level, with some vagaries in the determination of the effective caster level. See dispel for details.
Most of the spells of a level 24 caster are immune to greater dispelling, as the dispeller's best possible roll is 35 (20+15), while the DC is 36 (12+24).
This spell improves upon dispel magic and is improved by Mordenkainen's disjunction.

I bolded and italicized something for you, Svensk. Now, I've never checked to see which spells aren't part of that 'most', but if Mosh says it's 25, I'll believe it's 25.

Its 24.

If you are 23, There's a 5% Chance to dispel you. Each spell rolls separately.

Ozelotl wrote:

I have a WM build right now that I would like some help with. I've already made the character and have the concept, just need help on some finer mechanic points. My current intended spread is 20 fighter/7 WM/ 3 rogue.

The main question is, should I go 22 fighter and 1 rogue? I would pick up epic prowess but lose evasion. As he is STR based, his reflex isn't all that anyway.

I also have a free pre-epic feat. I was thinking to take either imp power attack or imp expertise. Which would you all suggest?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Rogue 2/fighter 11/wm 7 pre-epic.

You will get a boost to your reflex saves by picking rog and wm pre-epic. Should be a fine boost.

Power attack or imp. expertise is your call. If you haven't grabbed great fortitude, I would suggest you do.

Ozelotl wrote:

I also have a free pre-epic feat. I was thinking to take either imp power attack or imp expertise. Which would you all suggest?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Neither.

Unless you have a build with extremely high AB using imp power attack is going to affect your hitrate. If it affects your hitrate then you are giving back the benefit of power attack (damage). You don't have the kind of build that can run it. Just run normal power attack, you will probably have the AB for that.

Same thing applies to imp expertise. You are going to find yourself missing hits, especially later in your attack flurries.. You are a fighter and you need to be hitting things with a high hitrate.

Let's see a list of your existing pre-epic feats so we can see if you missed any gems along the way.

Ulir wrote:

Ozelotl wrote:

I have a WM build right now that I would like some help with. I've already made the character and have the concept, just need help on some finer mechanic points. My current intended spread is 20 fighter/7 WM/ 3 rogue.

The main question is, should I go 22 fighter and 1 rogue? I would pick up epic prowess but lose evasion. As he is STR based, his reflex isn't all that anyway.

I also have a free pre-epic feat. I was thinking to take either imp power attack or imp expertise. Which would you all suggest?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Rogue 2/fighter 11/wm 7 pre-epic.

You will get a boost to your reflex saves by picking rog and wm pre-epic. Should be a fine boost.

Power attack or imp. expertise is your call. If you haven't grabbed great fortitude, I would suggest you do.

You do NOT Take rogue pre-epic with a WM build. You take the levels in EPIC. EPIC!!!
You do not forfeit AB On a WM Build.
EVER!

Svensk is right. It's tempting to do Rogue before epic on that build, but the boost is only +3 to Reflex, while taking two extra levels of WM (9 instead of 7) nets you +1 to each save anyway. If you find yourself in need of a better reflex save or (Improved) Evasion during pre-epic, there's gear that can do that.

I built both of them and i will get the same ab. Taking 2 rogue pre epic i get epic prowess. Taking rogue in epic I don't. I'm also going for a 41 dc dev crit.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Ulir wrote:

Ozelotl wrote:

I have a WM build right now that I would like some help with. I've already made the character and have the concept, just need help on some finer mechanic points. My current intended spread is 20 fighter/7 WM/ 3 rogue.

The main question is, should I go 22 fighter and 1 rogue? I would pick up epic prowess but lose evasion. As he is STR based, his reflex isn't all that anyway.

I also have a free pre-epic feat. I was thinking to take either imp power attack or imp expertise. Which would you all suggest?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Rogue 2/fighter 11/wm 7 pre-epic.

You will get a boost to your reflex saves by picking rog and wm pre-epic. Should be a fine boost.

Power attack or imp. expertise is your call. If you haven't grabbed great fortitude, I would suggest you do.

You do NOT Take rogue pre-epic with a WM build. You take the levels in EPIC. EPIC!!!
You do not forfeit AB On a WM Build.
EVER!

2 rogue pre-epic = 24 bab in the end instead of 25. By taking 13 fighter pre-epic I will lose one epic feat that I could have used on epic prowess to even it out again. So in the end it would not change my ab one way or the other. I earned a bit of reflex there, 24 skill points, and the ability to use flame scrolls and other handy stuff from low level. Zing!

edit: Ozelotl beat me to it.

I'm assuming 19 Strength start Earth Genas and typical minmaxing of 6 Wis 6 Cha which would make your other stats either 14/14/14 or 13/16/13 because you said you already have "Concept".

All I can say is that you could have gone 20 Start and taken three great strengths rather than four. That would have freed up a slot for epic prowess anyway. Effectively your running your build at -2 effective AB under the optimal. Or -4 AB as we conclude that the optimal build is a 16 12 2 WM/Fighter/Rogue.

Because of how I would have started it you would have lost a total of 60HP and 2 Fort, gained more skillpoints in the long run from having int rounded out to 14, and been +2 AB on where you are now.

I rate +2 AB at around 150 percent better than 60 HP and 2 Fort.

AB is God, Chris is right. Fort is easy enough to stack. HP is pretty damn easy too. And 300 hp on a meleer is plenty to survive if you're smart.

AB is a delicious sauce you can never have enough of.

MoshingChris wrote:

... we conclude that the optimal build is a 16 12 2 WM/Fighter/Rogue.

I'm curious about this. Is 'optimal' in this context just defined as "the build with the highest attainable melee AB"? Or is there some combination of feats and such that's been agreed to include everything you need and nothing you don't? Maybe some sort of Ep Prowess / Ep Spec / Dev Crit thing?

Lizzie wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

... we conclude that the optimal build is a 16 12 2 WM/Fighter/Rogue.

I'm curious about this. Is 'optimal' in this context just defined as "the build with the highest attainable melee AB"? Or is there some combination of feats and such that's been agreed to include everything you need and nothing you don't? Maybe some sort of Ep Prowess / Ep Spec / Dev Crit thing?

It's actually just the most commonly used build. Mainly because it's easy to level and not so easy to fudge up.
And in many ways the most 'balanced one', but whether it's the best is subjective.

Speaking of AB. Gotta ranger going that will become ranger 26/bard 1/aa 3 in that order. I am leaning towards getting a sixth favored enemy at 25 instead of epic prowess. Its between 1 ab or one type of enemy with +6 and +2d6 damage. Isn't favored enemy better in this case? (my self-buffed ab will be 51 in the end without the prowess feat).

Ulir wrote:

Speaking of AB. Gotta ranger going that will become ranger 26/bard 1/aa 3 in that order. I am leaning towards getting a sixth favored enemy at 25 instead of epic prowess. Its between 1 ab or one type of enemy with +6 and +2d6 damage. Isn't favored enemy better in this case? (my self-buffed ab will be 51 in the end without the prowess feat).

Depends entirely what favored enemies you had in the first place
List em =)

Does it really depend on it? I mean, the difference in damage will be huge. Mmm, I think Fav.E. is better still, but here goes.

So far..
Undead
Outsider
Human
Giant
Dragon

Might make a RP pick like dragon.. dwarves. A wee bit of racism and being aloft always fits an elf. But not sure yet. Elf seems like the best option because of drow being the buggers they are.

Grab Abberation - Nets you beholders, Flayers, Umderhulks, Those brain creatures and flesh golems i think? Lots of things .D

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Aberrations

Elves are good
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Elves

So are favored enemy - Human. There's a LOT OF human NPC's/Pc's and stuff.

Source wrote:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Creatures

Ya, have been checking the wiki a lot. Already got humans, and originally had aberrations instead of dragons, but thought I wouldn't be spending much time with them.

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

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