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The most recent ruling on the age a PC can be without having to make a request is from this year old post:

Machiavelli's Dead wrote:

By Adult, we mean 18 Human equivalent years.

Yes, I'm aware D&D has different rules and 15 is legally an adult, but in D&D you don't have your buddy at the other end of the table trying to hit on your 15 year old "adult" female who just happens to dress and look so much like a little girl that it's borderline creepy. Your rp will hardly be affected by those extra 3 years, and if you truly want to play a 15 year old, then apply for it and play it realistically please.

Is this still the definite line that separates child from adult in regards to PCs?

Is there any way to get that age cap lowered to something more reasonable to the climate of the Realms? I mean that without hostility or snarkiness. There is a lot of good RP to be had over those three years in a young person's life that are significant, meaningful, and contribute to the greater story while writing in a depth of history and experiences that an 18 year old PC is unlikely to have compared to a PC who started a couple years younger and was actually played through. (D&D is a also great deal more aggressive and formative than the real world, I'd say, as I don't often have to contend with Gnolls or life-or-death situations on my way to the library.)

Why not just play an 18 year old that's not grown up enough to act/RP like an adult? For example: 95% of the people I went to school and University with.

Because of the underragedness and the amount of sexy talk and all as Machiavelli made reference too. I think it should stay without DM major approval. You may play a child character for a few months for the ages of 15-18 if requesting it.

Last edited by hendrack on Tue, Jun 28 2011, 19:48 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I disagree respectfully that it makes such a drastic difference for character growth to play a child. But I am only peanut gallery.

Actually, in terms of aging, if someone wants to play a child character it should age in real time. IMHO every character should age in realm time because different players age their characters differently. Or play whole generations in a matter of half a year.

Uberuce wrote:

Why not just play an 18 year old that's not grown up enough to act/RP like an adult? For example: 95% of the people I went to school and University with.

Haha, and here I thought we RP to get away from real life of wasting years in mediocre drudgery!

I'm talking 13+ in this case, which is when most people have reached the psychological and physical development in the actual structure of their brains to be adults, by the way. At the moment, if that ruling is the one that is crystallized still, a 17 year old is a child.

I would be okay with it being lowered to 15, but only because I want to see more innocent youth suffer at the hands of jaded experience.

Plus the younger the soul the richer the rewards those dark gods offer up for corrupting or sacrificing, no?

Feonir wrote:

Plus the younger the soul the richer the rewards those dark gods offer up for corrupting or sacrificing, no?

I loved how you got most bonuses as an evil god in Black & White for sacraficing kids. The younger the more. XD

I thought you could play a character of any age over 14 already?

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Feonir wrote:

Plus the younger the soul the richer the rewards those dark gods offer up for corrupting or sacrificing, no?

I loved how you got most bonuses as an evil god in Black & White for sacraficing kids. The younger the more. XD

this

dayfer wrote:

I thought you could play a character of any age over 14 already?

Can you cite a thread for that?

'fraid not, just general talk I've heard.

Yossarin wrote:

I would be okay with it being lowered to 15, but only because I want to see more innocent youth suffer at the hands of jaded experience.

I am with Yoss.

I'm curious how this applies to elfs and stuff?

I believe the lore has always been they get to a certain age like normal humans, think it is like 15-18 then the slowing takes them and they dont age until they are cold in the ground.

*cough*Mary Sue*Cough*

Back on topic,

Quote:

I thought you could play a character of any age over 14 already?

Can we get DM conformation on this?

Yossarin wrote:

I would be okay with it being lowered to 15, but only because I want to see more innocent youth suffer at the hands of jaded experience.

Pretty much. I think it's setting appropriate and generally when people set off from their homes in search of adventure and whatnot. Teenage wanderlust at it's best.

Cybering is illegal in all forms on the server so I see the worry about potential pedophilia redundant and silly. You do it and you get banned, regardless of the age of the characters involved.

Right now, anything below 18 is considered officially a child character, as far as I know, looking at the thread Letum cited and past rulings.

Less mores(as per norms) babysitting, more RP freedom. If someone wants to play a dorky teenager I won't hold any quarrels so long as there's none of this OoC "//You're being mean to my PC" deal when my PC's treat that PC their apparent age.

And if someone wants to reenact their version of Dirty Dancing in a world of demons and magic and paranormal phenomena... look at all the damns I give[none]. I'll explode/eviscerate/discombobulate them all the same. A response which we find more socially acceptable than the former act, somehow. In any case, RP away!

I find people who want to live their adolescent life again creepy pseudo-intellectuals who weren't tough enough.

That said I thought our cap was 16.

I'd be alright with /starting/ at fifteen, but I would /not/ be alright with a level 30 fifteen year old.

Silent2001 wrote:

I would /not/ be alright with a level 30 fifteen year old.

Word.

So then a level cap should be imposed on child characters that is lower until they grow up? 10 or 15 or something? Or 3?

MoshingChris wrote:

I find people who want to live their adolescent life again creepy pseudo-intellectuals who weren't tough enough.

I don't know how old they make them all in the TV version, but in the books, almost all of the protagonists in Game of Thrones are under 20, ranging from 7 (Bran), 14 (Jon) to 15 (Rob) or so forth. You, Mosh, may not dig Game of Thrones but it's not really directed at you so much as a response to the sentiment that seems to be recurring, and yours happens to be the most pointed. I don't know if you're familiar with those characters from the books, and some might argue that they are maturely written - but I'd argue they are 'just' well written. A lot of novel characters are young, and it allows the reader to "grow along" with them throughout the story. I don't see how it is much different with RP - the story is interactive, is the only difference.

I don't think that playing teenagers is at all about playing jailbait, or somehow having "license" to throw tantrums, or trivial or shallow characters, or that playing or writing younger characters is really that indicative of the player's own adolescence. It's not about somehow winning by doing things first, younger, before anyone else. It's not about "recapturing lost youth". It's about telling a story, and many tales begin well before 18 - and in a setting of fantasy that is rife with adventure, battle, politics and hardships, it is very reasonable for those tales to begin earlier than this age picked based on some cultural/legal sensibility that really has no baring on setting - and the more uncomfortable association it might but does not intrinsically have of using it as a medium for underage sexuality is already covered by the rule of no cybering in any form, as Alanna said above.

dayfer wrote:

*cough*Mary Sue*Cough*

Back on topic,

Quote:

I thought you could play a character of any age over 14 already?

Can we get DM conformation on this?

No, you can't, because it's not true.

Quote:

So then a level cap should be imposed on child characters that is lower until they grow up? 10 or 15 or something? Or 3?

This is irrelevant because all child characters run by us. And they never go over level 2, btw.

I don't see a reason for this topic. Why do you feel the need to push the barrier by playing a minor? You're not edgy, it's not groundbreaking. You may be a level 1 sorceror at 15 in DnD but then you grew up. and now you are maybe level 2 or 3 at age 18-20. If you still feel the urge to do otherwise, make a request.

TormakSaber wrote:

You're not edgy, it's not groundbreaking.

That's actually part of the point. It's not groundbreaking. It's actually pretty typical. 15 is not a child in the realms. I don't understand why it is being treated like 5.

not needed. players here already usually come off as being 15ish as is.

tsukasa1991 wrote:

not needed. players here already usually come off as being 15ish as is.

Why reinforce this attitude? Why feed into it?

There are some things, concepts and roles that contribute to the community that are better suited to younger or older ages; some that are suited to a gender; some that are suited to a race - that aren't outlandish or a bid for some prestige, but the appropriate thing for the character to be to tell the story through.

The difference in ages that you're talking is really inconsequential. Yes, in modern times, there's a huge gap in the development of a 14 year old and an 18 year old. However, in the "times" that we RP in, there was little to no difference between the two. So, why not just make an 18 year old and go on with life?

Does it not factor in that there may be reasons for being born in a certain year, and having seen or not seen certain events in the timeline? That there may be minor to significant differences in the way a character perceives things, or what they have experienced that make them radically different from even a sibling, or another person of their country or city, because of those "inconsequential" couple years?

All this really does is stifle the players who want to be honest about their characters ages, to hold to timelines. Those who want to play characters who are younger than 18 will, and will just not talk about it - because most people don't ask, and the character may not even know their own age, or lie about it. The point is that the truth of the character can have consequential importance and I don't want to lie about it even if my character might.

We're talking 14 to 18 here. Not 10 to 40. To put the whole thing in relevance: A 14 year old would have been 4 when the attacks of 9/11 happened. An 18 year old would have been 8. Neither age would be able to grasp the whole gravity of the situation and would most likely have very similar recollections.

Those are vast differences in awareness and ability to remember. An eight year old could, whether it impacted them to is another matter. A four year old is no where near as developed as an eight year old to be able to process and recall their environment. We don't even really have memories of our first three years of life. That can mean fairly large gaps of experiences for people close in age. It is significant. The years between birth and puberty are the most developmentally complex and varied in our entire lives.

not to mention that back in medieval times, due to earlier deaths, a boy was forced to do the work of a man earlier and there were not the social norms of today. in other words, a 15 year old boy back then would be considered more of a man by todays standards than most men of today. i dont know too many men irl who kill and skin elf to feed/cloth his family consisting of women and children. but im sure they were common sights for children to be doing back then, especially when the older men had to fight things like behold...i mean brigands or whathaveyous. so to RP a child in medieval times is not too much more than playing a short adult or... oh man.. A HIN. and there we go. there was already a race taken into account exactly for this. if you want that kind of rp, halflings are already there.
but, i understand that children of all race DO actually exist. they could in all honesty probably be kept as npcs or very special circumstances. if you absolutely have to play a minor for whatever rp youve come up with then it might be approved and all would be well. if not, you can always play that hin.

and as for not "feeding into" the idea that people on this server are immature, well, prove me wrong.

It's called infantile amnesia and varies from person to person. Some people lose the first 3 years, some can remember exiting the womb (which is extremely rare, but does happen) and everything in between.

By 4 years of age, a person has developed cognitive reasoning and can use limited logic to differentiate right from wrong. A 4 year old would be able to know that the destruction of the twin towers was a bad thing if explained to them in terms they can understand. Keep in mind that limited vocabulary and limited cognitive reasoning are not mutually inclusive. If explained in words that a 4 year old can understand, they are more than capable of grasping the gravity of most situations as traumatic or reality-changing as any type of landmark event that could possibly shape a character.

While they may not get the fine nuances of what happens, they can still understand the gist of the matter. Later development will impart the nuances to them. For example, I distinctly remember my parents separating. I was quite young and didn't have a full grasp on what exactly was going on, but I could tell that something wasn't right and bad things were going on. As I aged, I gained a better insight into what happened and the full gravity of the situation settled in on me. By the time I was 14 my grasp on the situation was fully developed and hasn't changed any to this day... 16 years later.

My point is this: An event happening during the lifetime of a PC could/would affect the PC if you so choose it to. If too young, infantile amnesia may wipe it out, but outside of that small range of years (where I don't think too much happened in the Amian timeline) your character would still remember and would have developed a sophisticated outlook on the situation by the time you gain control of them as a PC.

I'd be more inclined to lower ages if people play kids SOOOOOOOOOOOO badly.

I love you guys...but man...man oh man. <3

Bobo's belt should be a requirement of all children characters *nods*

Furthermore, this thread has made me feel old...

I can see the argument for making an 18 year old rather than a 14 year old since its easier not to have to request, and I can also see the argument for wanting to include specific in game events in a character's lifetime. Neither of these arguments is compelling me towards one or the other. The deciding factor for me personally is that in the current atmosphere of Amia I would elect to play as old of a character as possible so as not to be hated on... The sad part about this is that the perception of a condescending view of a specific RP style such as the one presented in this thread is potentially limiting to the idea pool that we're going to see on the server with regards to what characters get made by the players who play on the server for the long run.

In my view, a RP server is just an online forum for creative writing in a group. It is highly judgemental to label players who want to play a young character as a "pseudo-intellectual".

LetumLux wrote:

Does it not factor in that there may be reasons for being born in a certain year, and having seen or not seen certain events in the timeline? That there may be minor to significant differences in the way a character perceives things, or what they have experienced that make them radically different from even a sibling, or another person of their country or city, because of those "inconsequential" couple years?

All this really does is stifle the players who want to be honest about their characters ages, to hold to timelines. Those who want to play characters who are younger than 18 will, and will just not talk about it - because most people don't ask, and the character may not even know their own age, or lie about it. The point is that the truth of the character can have consequential importance and I don't want to lie about it even if my character might.

Then make a request and stop complaining about it? I'm not sure what the problem is here. If your character is trult so amazing then you will have no issue getting it approved.

LetumLux wrote:

All this really does is stifle the players who want to be honest about their characters ages, to hold to timelines. Those who want to play characters who are younger than 18 will, and will just not talk about it - because most people don't ask, and the character may not even know their own age, or lie about it.

I am sorry, but all this sounds to me like you just want something special, something no one else has - like a pair of unique wings, goat legs or bird head. You said it yourself - if you want to play 18- character, go for it and do not tell your age. Or lie... in the end, it does not matter.

And while we are talking about having a kid character (or worse, a teenage character, which smells like a putrid puke... or a Twilight) - in fact I do not have much problems with that. You see, as said, kids do exist. And if anything, it will only make the gaming world more authentic. Like Dead Space - mutated children are one of my populars. And I will laugh in face of anyone who will say that it is not proper to use child as mutants - because should we open our minds so much to imagine that there is some form of a hostile virus, who do you think would fall to it first? Elderly and young.

However - should you ever roll a child character, you should play it accordingly. That means :

1, Level cap (depends on age, but as said, I would hate to see lvl 30 teenage monk)
2, Stats. cap (anyone wanna roll a 10 years old with 18 str. or int.? Whooo!)
3, Feats cap (child devastating crit. ftw!)
4, Quests cap (no example here because of a spolier possibility, but I think you got my point)

So in the end, if you want to play kid, and you will get an approval to it, I have no problems with that, in case above "penalties" are applied. The moment I'll see giants being harvested by 12-years old or a 10-years old in a "crusade" party that roams Abyss, I am absolutely refusing to play along.

LetumLux wrote:

The point is that the truth of the character can have consequential importance and I don't want to lie about it even if my character might.

Of course. If you refuse to lie, then face the consequences. I looked like 20 years old when I was a teen, and I lied - when buying cigs, when buying booze, when going into cinema to see some nasty movie... Do you think I'd be able to do these things if I was honest? No...
So sure, run around whilst playing a teen, be frank and honest, but be ready to deal with the fact that the RP may not be so sweet as it may appear in theoretical part of the character creation.

Great argument, Guardian.

LetumLux wrote:

I'm talking 13+ in this case, which is when most people have reached the psychological and physical development in the actual structure of their brains to be adults, by the way. At the moment, if that ruling is the one that is crystallized still, a 17 year old is a child.

I'm not talking about playing children. I'm saying that according to the rules, PCs mystically become adults at 18. Which means anything under 18, whether 17 or 3 is being treated the same way by this rule. I'm talking about getting the freely playable age lowered from 18 to, say, 15. Why are those three years important enough to make a stream of posts about it? Teenage years are formative, they are integral to the galvanizing of the sense of self, or lack there of. With some variations for personality, the majority of people will be more "cemented" by the time they are 18 than when they were 15. It's a different animal - a different avenue of play.

I can make a request, yes; but I think the entire attitude about it should change. Just like I thought Water Genasi should stop getting shafted with their arbitrarily picked favored class. Just like I thought that merchant stalls would be a neat addition to the server. I don't want this only for myself, I want it to allow freedom of creativity for those who also want to do it, because it opens up doors of RP and story.

I don't understand all the fangs. It has nothing to do with my character being "truly amazing". It's not supposed to be amazing. Young adults, teenagers are not really that special, but their age can be pivotal for the development of the character and that is a medium for the player. It's like having access to all of the paint colors before they've become mixed, allowing a wider range with which to fill the canvas. It's a chance to play through and actual create, realm time, a backstory that is immensely involved, includes other players, and contribute these stories to the larger experience of the server. Having that naivety, or inexperience, or just plain youth changes what a character may become even with just a few years difference. Expectations on them are different. The actual amount of time they have existed is different.

If I'm alone in this, then so be it. But I don't think that a request should be necessary. I don't think being a couple years younger in starting age suddenly makes the character a prodigy, worthy of renown, or a fodder for "Twilight" (or whatever other thing you want to use as a derogatory comparison.)

The problem is that players often lack the common sense you'd expect them to have. For example, you'd expect a character to eventually reach the age of 18 before they hit level 30 right? But this often won't happen, rather the player will forever keep the character at the age of 15, level them to 30, and then run around in the abyss as an angsty 15 year old demon killer from Anime X. Its as bad as the 9 year old demon children.

If players could be trusted to advance their characters age appropriatly before it became stupid, then lowering the age would be fine. But honestly now, do you believe that players will have the common sense to not have a 15 year old dating a 30 year old in game? That they won't have their 15 year old stay 15 forever and be one of the servers most powerful wizards? While I wish players did have this common sense, they unfortunatly have demonstrated time and time again they do not.

RP styles are fine. If someone wants to play a 15 year old then they are welcome to do so, they simply need to pop up a request and prove they have the maturity to do so without exposing the rest of the server to some pretty disgusting immature behaviour with said 15 year old. As a request this allows the DM's to make sure those playing younger characters will treat the subject matter with respect. Without it, the subject matter is at the mercy of the whims of players.

I'd be down for that justification if it weren't for everything else that has much greater potential for "abuse" and is free to play without request.

It's okay, though. I'm apparently fighting for a cause no one else is behind, so I'm going to leave this thread as an Improving Amia request for the DMs and move on. If it gets approved at some point, great; if not, that's cool too. Status quo, even one they hate, is really cozy for some people.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

The problem is that players often lack the common sense you'd expect them to have. For example, you'd expect a character to eventually reach the age of 18 before they hit level 30 right? But this often won't happen, rather the player will forever keep the character at the age of 15, level them to 30, and then run around in the abyss as an angsty 15 year old demon killer from Anime X. Its as bad as the 9 year old demon children.

If players could be trusted to advance their characters age appropriatly before it became stupid, then lowering the age would be fine. But honestly now, do you believe that players will have the common sense to not have a 15 year old dating a 30 year old in game? That they won't have their 15 year old stay 15 forever and be one of the servers most powerful wizards? While I wish players did have this common sense, they unfortunatly have demonstrated time and time again they do not.

RP styles are fine. If someone wants to play a 15 year old then they are welcome to do so, they simply need to pop up a request and prove they have the maturity to do so without exposing the rest of the server to some pretty disgusting immature behaviour with said 15 year old. As a request this allows the DM's to make sure those playing younger characters will treat the subject matter with respect. Without it, the subject matter is at the mercy of the whims of players.

Perfect to the letter...

LetumLux, I did not want to offend you or mock you. I was trying to point out how easy it is to abuse your idea. You said 13 + ... I say yes, no problem, but with limitations. You said 15 + ... I say yes, no problem, and I think 15 + could go without much restrictions, but only, ONLY, upon a request and validation from DM side.

The fact that 15 + could date 30 - hell, it happens irl. It may fall into "naughty maneer" category, but it is not against the law, therefore fine by me. Sure, should my daughter come home saying "Pa, I'm being banged by 30 years old and I luv him" - the urge to castrate that guy would be great, but then again, she is 15+ and therefore she has the right to do it.

No, what bothers me is the possibility of having, as Selvec said, "character at the age of 15, level them to 30, and then run around in the abyss as an angsty 15 year old demon killer from Anime X" - That's why I would insist on the approval.

LetumLux wrote:

Great argument, Guardian.

LetumLux wrote:

I'm talking 13+ in this case, which is when most people have reached the psychological and physical development in the actual structure of their brains to be adults, by the way. At the moment, if that ruling is the one that is crystallized still, a 17 year old is a child.

Yes, in your case. But then again, should we remove the age limitation, what would stop some other player from creating a ten years old? You see, your intentions may be right and nice, but you cannot see into heads of the others.

Speaking plainly - I do not mind kids, teenagers, whatever played by players. But I would like to see these characters checked and validated first, for the safety of us all.

You can do all the annoying things people are talking about at any age. Hell, most of the characters I might think of like that I don't know the ages of, and would assume are older.

The reason I cite 13 and 15 is because by 13, most people should be into their last big developmental phase, which is finishing up the biological shell (while now being capable of doing all the things you will do throughout your life, but still growing into it) and working out all the strangeness of being a person who is now, finally, able to think about themselves through the imagined perspective of others, and be concerned what others think of them in a very new and large way that younger people aren't psychologically or really neurologically capable of.

13, to me, is the best average for that. I'm willing to agree with 15 because that seems to be not only what other people are more comfortable with, but there's also good precedent for it in D&D itself.

Also, thank you, Guardian. I don't mean to attack you, either. (Although the sarcasm was definitely intentional, in the previous post.)

You can't RP a statutory heavy petting scene if we have an age cap. Doing so means we can ban you.

Removing that age cap means the DM team approves of such scenes. We run checks and balances for a reason.

I'm fine with being able to keep tabs on sub-18 year old characters through the requests forum and having the rules backing me when I force archive those that didn't request.

My argument is flawless for keeping the cap where it is.

My word means little here because it's simply an opinion, but I'm rather highly against lowering the "general population"s age cap. If someone truly desired to make a younger character, then I imagine putting a request in and having it approved due to the player being known as a good/responsible roleplayer (that wouldn't obviously engage in anything remotely adult-rated whilst playing said character) wouldn't be difficult.

MoshingChris wrote:

You can't RP a statutory heavy petting scene if we have an age cap. Doing so means we can ban you.

You can if you're from one of the few countries with an age of consent higher than 18? Also average global age of consent is roughly 16 (age of majority being 18/19)

Really wouldn't bother me seeing characters aged 15/16 or so considering that we have and have had players that age. I find some one playing a character that age no more creepy than the 15/16 year old playing a 30 year old womaniser.

Also since neither age group is really pre-pubescent there is far less differentiating them from each other than there is that differentiates either from a true child character.

^
except, irl, people are pervs.
i dont trust anyone to not be completely immature about it.

Growing old is a given.

Growing up however, is optional.

tsukasa1991 wrote:

except, irl, people are pervs.
i dont trust anyone to not be completely immature about it.

Okay, I find this slightly amusing, so I have to ask...

First of all, I concur that people are pervs. Like it or not...

But then again, let us presume there is a teenage cha 18+ chick who happens to run into a follower of Graz'zt. Awkward, eh? It is basically follower's duty to seduce her and do naughty things with her, if possible. Now - the follower himself might be considered as pervert, but the player? Is he a perv for playing correctly his character? Who is the wrong guy here?

If you play a mass murderer, or a Banite masochist, or some kind of a sadistic Malar beasty, people do not judge you as a villain in person. So why the double meter? If that pretty chick decide to go "wild" with the Graz'ztite, it is her right to do so (at least, as mentioned, in the most countries IRL). If you chop someone to pieces with an axe and yell Malar's name during the process... I doubt it is allowed in any country in the real world (well, Texas maybe...).

No, I do not think the root of the problem is that people are pervs. It would be difficult, very very difficult to play a teen or even younger properly for different reasons. Therefore, an experienced player is required for that and thus my opinion about DM validation first.

LetumLux wrote:

tsukasa1991 wrote:

not needed. players here already usually come off as being 15ish as is.

Why reinforce this attitude? Why feed into it?

There are some things, concepts and roles that contribute to the community that are better suited to younger or older ages; some that are suited to a gender; some that are suited to a race - that aren't outlandish or a bid for some prestige, but the appropriate thing for the character to be to tell the story through.

Hmm. I'd debate this. Remembering back to being 14 myself, and thinking I was so awesome all the way up till I was 20, and now looking back at all that as a recent 21 year old, I wonder if, even if the education given to a 14 year old through 18 year old in the "times" we roleplay was different, whether the attitudal changed from those ages, and then progressing through to a 21 year old would be highly different, or if it would be similar, just more repressed?

The "age of Adulthood" for PCs

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