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When I log into Neverwinter Nights through Gamespy and search the servers by game type I find Amia listed as a role play server. This was the reason why I started playing on Amia back in 2009. Back then the RP was interesting.

There was always something going on wether it be in Bendir Dale, Cordor, or Ultrinnan I could always find a group of characters around to enhance my playtime and help my character evolve.

Over the last year I have noticed a shift in the server. It feels more and more like an RP light PvP action server than a RP server. Hell if you look at the Caraigh area over the last few months it seems more like a team pvp zone where the "Good guys" defend from the "Bad guys" and both sides attack anyone that isn't part of their clique. The average walk through Amia Forest isn't much different.

I would say that it seems that people revolve their role play around PvP rather than roleplaying and having it happen the other way around. But I am not really seeing any RP lead up to most of the pvp I have witnessed lately.

I am really becoming dissapointed by this. There are plenty of action servers players can log into but not really than many good role play servers like Amia used to be. I find myself avoiding other players now because of this and haven't been able to get involved in the caliber of role play I once enjoyed on Amia. I am starting to wonder if this is the types of server that Disco wanted to create anymore.

Your disappointment is noted, and now I lock this thread to save you from everyone elses disappointment at your disappointment creating a big flame fest that disappoints me.

At the request of a player who has a few issues to bring up I am unlocking this thread. Don't make me regret it, Amians!

Last edited by Silvarus on Sun, Jun 26 2011, 14:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I see no problem. Adventure role playing games, including the pen and paper ones, are all about conflict and combat. Someone else might complain about the server looking more like a Social server or a chatroom when viting Cordor and such.

I question why this topic needed to be unlocked when issues could have been PMed to us.

Because not everything is a complaint, I think the mentioned player wishes to offer some constructive criticism that the players can disassemble and rebuke in a polite and civil manner. If they can't it can always be locked again.

I find that there is still some brilliant RP going on, like all tne traditional Kobs I know are brilliant, as are the Bendir folk. RPs still around no worries

What constitutes RP is different for each individual.

Some people like the conflict-less huggle and snuggle RP. Some people get off on plotting and planning and being all secretive. Some people like to shine the light on the conflict of good and evil and how it plays out.

Personally, I see no problem with revolving your RP around PvP if that's what gets you off. I do have my own issues with how I think such things should go down, but that's my own personal preference and I don't want to tell other people how to RP.

My advice is to live and let live. Having spent plenty of time RP'ing with you in the past, beciv, I can say for sure that there are those out there that have a very similar style as you and look for the same things in their RP. Search and ye shall find!

It's the beauty of Amia... we can cater to almost any person's style of RP and everyone can come and have fun here. Hardcore RP'er to casual RP'er. Hardcore PvP build to just hitting that damned Recommend button. They can all co-exist here and have fun.

In all honesty, I'm not encountering the situation you describe at all, Beciv. I'm trying to remember back... since about the beginning of the year, I think I've been involved in maybe two or three PvPs, total. And I haven't had any consistent problem finding RP that I've found interesting.

This is going to sound trite to mention, and possibly a little harsh, but... according to the laws of the server, all PvP is voluntary. If you're fighting, it's because you chose to fight. If you don't like to fight, choose not to.

Well, the old I-don't-want-to-PvP-white-flag clause is gone, thankfully. But I've not seen any serious abuse of PvP rules either in my four years on Amia.

Personally, I can see a few sides of it, mainly that it's not just "PVP kills the RP."

Yes, there is a huge PVP base. There just is, and there probably always will be. Sometimes, it can be a pain because you can't play certain faiths or races without getting ganked from day one. (ie, Typical Cyricists, Banites, surface drow that either aren't Eilistraeen or aren't Shriners.)

But at the same time, if you want to, most of the time, you really can avoid it. I absolutely suck at PVP. I mean, like, a Dyson, suck. And honestly, because I suck, I never win. Because I never win, no. I really don't think it's fun, I don't like it. If RP shoves me into it, unless I can bow out in a way my char would realistically do, I will PVP. But really, unless Irae walks through the forest at High Noon or Katsumi starts being flippant at the Banites, I generally don't have to deal with it. A lot of it is just about how you deal with others, IC and OOC. Having a char that's an obnoxious douchebag? Well, yeah, they'll be funny to RP, but you're probably going to get the crap kicked out of you two or three times a reset. Johnny H. Wallflower, on the other hand? Not so big of a splash, but not so much risk of PVP. Know /YOUR/ part.

Yes, this is a Roleplay server. But (as I've said before and will again), there are so many OOC cliques. Just, generally, buddies who team up and play. And it's not a "OH AMIA HAS CLIQUES THEY SUCK" thing. It's really not. Every server has them. Every group activity has them. I really don't think there's a way to change it, and in a lot of cases, groups of OOC buddies hanging out does more to stimulate RP than to crush it, so I don't think changing it would be good. I just think we all (yes, me too) need to be more conscious that we aren't excluding others.

The all-powergamers are really no worse, I think. Yeah, it pisses me off sometimes that I can't buy things because I simply can't stand grinding long enough to make umpteen million dollars here. I don't know how you all log on and do it. I don't. It's insane. But the powerbuilding, PVPing crowd really doesn't do anything to our RP. I still play Katsumi the same way, or Katina, or Irae'arra, or whoever, exactly as I would if there were no PVP.

In the end, and this is a lesson I will freely admit I am still learning, it boils down to respect. Respect for yourself, and respect for other players, respect for the staff, and respect for the server as a whole.

PVPers, don't let your OMG NEED TO WIN!! outweigh the RP. When you go running in and don't give outs, or don't allow for RP, or whatever it is you do, that shows a lack of respect for the server, its staff, its rules, and most of all, its other players. Being the baddest fighter on a video game is /not/ that important.

OOC-Buddy-Cliques. I wholly support them, to the point outlined above...and I am going to say, I am guilty of supporting OOC-buddy-cliques, even though I /hate/ them when they do what I've done, in shunning others. And to those who I have done it to, I hope you can accept my apology. I'm working on this, and all I can do is ask for forgiveness.

In both PVP and the OOCness, since they are very often tied together ("This guy PVPs me all the time, me and My Buddies are gonna ignore him/gank him/get him kicked out of X faction, he'll see!" or "I hate how this guy plays X race. I'm gonna have a real X [Dwarf/gnome/mage/pally/Guy Named Bob] kick the shit out of him and show him how it's done." and that kind of stuff), there is one rule. And we all learned it in grade school...so imagine how embarrassed I am at 32 that I just remembered it?

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you." The golden rule. For those with shaky English, "Treat people how you want them to treat you."

I know, I'm rambling. I just think these are some really important things for the entire playerbase, from Nekh to the DM team, to the newest player that just joined five minutes ago, (And me!) need to remember. There's always a time we get mad, and while the correct thing to do is ignore other Players, and focus on the /IC/, we don't always. It's really easy to say "Oh, just ignore them", but sometimes it's like trying to ignore a glass shard in your foot.

So...to swallow my pride and take my own advice (for once):
To all who I have wronged, in this way or any other in the three years I have been here, I am sorry. I think there are too many of you to list here, but in the spirit of trying to increase awareness without hostility, a spirit beciv seems to have raised from the dead, if any of you wish to talk to me, and explain how you feel wronged, and get that apology in person, I will gladly give it when (if) you catch up to me ingame.

If you have a bad attitude, the chances are high that you'll end up in PvP. It might be your role as a toon, or your attitude as a person. Some people just can't take it that some toons are better than their own and won't back away = a PvP. It's not especially strange if you are that kind of player and when it happens, don't complain. If you don't want a fight when another player shouts after you that he is going to do bad things to your mother, you can answer in a witty way instead, like "why my mother? are you tired of doing it with your own" or something, and then walk away. The PvP rules are such that you don't HAVE to fight if you don't want to. I have played in Amia since 2004 (I think) and have been involved in four PvP:s in all these years. Two where I started them, since that toon of mine was evil, one when I was ambushed with no roleplay before (i.e. break of the PvP rules) and one when a drow invited our whole party to try to take him down (we failed

.

If you throw in good jokes about you being insulted, you usually get the crowd on your side and the antagonist usually choose to move away to some other prey with low self esteem he/she can taunt into a PvP. Sadly, there are some people out there who wants to pick a fight with their level 30 toon against low level players in PvP:s they can't loose, since they simply get a kick out of it. If you meet such toon/player, just realise it's a megalomanic psycho behind the keyboard that you can't beat and walk away after you have insulted him with some jokes. You'll win the fight without having to deal a single blow and can laugh all evening, thinking about it.

beciv:

People have been saying that "the server used to be ace and is now just a PvP pit" ever since I got here. Then in 2007 people were saying it had been a better RP experience with no OOC peen waving at all back in 2005. Then in 2009 people were saying it had been a better RP experience with no OOC peen waving at all back in 2007...

If there's been a highlight of Amia it was the time when the novelties hadn't worn off, and the standards of RP that I considered high hadn't been incrementally raised by each excellent player I'd bumped into over the years. When I first got here I remember being enthralled by a session with a player who I shall not name but was notorious for running now-nerfed cheesebuilds, and who could not string a sentence together to save her skin, and was always pressing for a fight to show off her 80AC. She was just walking from Cordor to Wharftown looking for someone to legally grief, but I didn't know any better, so I thought it was pretty cool.

PvP has been a dick waving fest since day 1 back in 2004, always has been, always will be. The ones who make it enjoyable are the ones who can manage to do it within the confines of reason and means.

And then there is those folk who just wanna set hostile and rumble. They usually get bored and move on.

Well-played evil and needed pvp is a good thing. I've never seen it. After particular events that I will not specifically mention - but involving on every occasion some black-clad troll PK-ing with zero rp (no matter what shape/creature.. it was just 'that is a PC' *kills*) and not even trying to hostile until it is all over.. I just don't give them the time of day any more. I play for fun, and a story.. not to play victim to some player's fractured ego. I just log off and continue about my day when confronted by those people.

Same story is seen on most servers though. Some black-clad PvP build (that keeps weapons drawn even in conversation! Yay!) running around killing folks for cheap kicks in the name of 'evil'.. and doing it in a hollow, risk-free environment with a respawn button. Evil* without consequence is trolling. No more, no less.

*Again, it's not really evil. It is just PvP monkeys that probably can't hack it in a real PvP server so they come and swing their digital thing all over a RP server.

Sadly, there are only 2 characters I've met to break this view here. I still hold hope, but mostly it is all inane nonsense so I log out. Maybe.. one day.. in the far-future...

*sombre music with a few notes of hope*

TormakSaber wrote:

I question why this topic needed to be unlocked when issues could have been PMed to us.

I have to give props to Silent for giving this a chance and for seeing that having a few days to think about the subject, more people can be civil in their responses. For Tormaks concern, as long it does not become a flame fest, discussion, out in the open, is beneficial. Not every issue needs a behind the scenes policy, as it may help players who have the same views and are unwilling to state them, or provide enough information for the OP and others to come to terms with an issue that was important enough to post in the first place.

I'd also like to thank AxlLeigh for her very poignant post. It's always hard to find respect in the heat of the moment, thank you for pointing that out.

For my own part this thread has given me much to think upon. However, from the discussions I've had with people off line, there are a fair number of people dissatisfied with the general PvP trend, especially as a resolution to large events. It is annoying to see RP in the absence of any PvP being foiled or overturned completely by simple PvP. In the end I guess might makes right, but where does that leave others? Are the people who indulge in RP without having to resort to PvP to be left in the cold? As AxlLeigh said, it comes down to respect. I know I have little respect for the mass PvP crowd, but I also know they hold little for the efforts of others playing styles. So, where does that leave us?

It hopefully leaves us with the knowledge that the concept of "entertainment" is varied from person to person, but not yet the understanding.

I hope one day it does lead to the understanding, because I'd love to wake up to an empty inbox just once.

/selfish

Bravo21 wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

So, where does that leave us?

On a forum talking circles about a topic that really has no answer because opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and usually they all stink.

My first characters were Lolthitie Drow. Aly’isgar hardly /ever/ initiated PVP; it was usually a group of goodly characters that thought a little female was an easy target. Too many times she was attacked on sight when the only clue to Aly’isgars identity was her name floating above her head. Yet somehow she was recognized. Best reasoning: “She smelled like a drow.” Huh??

So here’s my 2 cents, slow down. The great thing about Lolthite drow RP is that it’s at Maui Hawaii pace. Slow and meaningful. And dice, use those dice.

This goes for those encountering the “whatever and die” folks. If that’s what the characters are like then the players running those characters think it’s going to be fun somehow. I don’t have to agree with it in order to slow down and think about how my character (not me) would react to that. The words and emotes used in the situation may very well lead to some great RP. I can’t know unless I go along with it.

Because there was a time characters would come up to my Lolthite and ask if she was looking for someone to capture. Why? Because the RP by the Drow and their captured character was stellar.

When Aly’isgar ended up in PVP I always did my best to disposition the characters as quickly as possible. Nobody likes lying on the ground for an hour.

Please do not cast arcane spells at my character as they run by and think it’s RP. Please do not set my character to hostile in lieu of rolling an intimidate check. And if my character defends themselves and yours gets killed, please don’t cuss me out in Tells.

Lally wrote:

I'd love to wake up to an empty inbox just once.

*barely resists a near-the-knuckle joke*

The moral of the story is, don't let 'em get you down. It's a persistent world, so nobody will ever 'win', just make the best story you can along the way. And avoid the morons.

Ummma wrote:

Same story is seen on most servers though. Some black-clad PvP build (that keeps weapons drawn even in conversation! Yay!) running around killing folks for cheap kicks in the name of 'evil'.. and doing it in a hollow, risk-free environment with a respawn button. Evil* without consequence is trolling. No more, no less.

Take comfort knowing there is always some not black-clad character that makes a point of keeping their weapons sheathed and takes great pains to avoid killing people unnecessarily. Just because there is little to no risk and someone can start over again in a flash because of the respawn button, doesn't mean they always will.

Last edited by Guardian on Sun, Jun 26 2011, 18:51 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Well really, this is all a matter of psychology... a friend of mine graduated on collage with a help of an essay, you might say, where he used many situations from role playing games - especially Nwn. PvP was included as one of the main sections.

We used to "spy" on players long time ago, during the first years of Neverwinters existance. PvP situations... they were all so similiar it was rather funny.

Why is PvP so popular on Amia? Very easy, you do not need to give it much of a thought. Death penalties are pathetic - I would rather say none at all. Therefore, nobody fears of dying. Therefore, nobody fears of PvP. The previous server I was playing on had rather drastic death penalties - you dropped all (ALL) your equipment on death, lost a level and without proper care a point of constitution. Then again, the server was a HC role playing, people did not care for powerbuilding (they did not even have much chance, PrCs were on a special request, fe.). I do not want to mock, insult or anything (but I am sure it will be taken as such), but I am absolutely sure 99% of radical PvPers here would not dare to leave the safety of the town with such penalties. People are brave when they have nothing to loose, but the good and solid rpers do not seek PvP and if they do, they have no problem with bearing the consequences (i mean consequences, not the Amia death penalties).

The fact is that such threads as "How to powerbuild your ass to the top" only encourage PvP as well. Because frankly, if you are a powerbuilder, sooner or later you will grow tired of harvesting NPCs and will want to test it on others. Yet again, it is logical.

So... if you want to reduce PvP - put a special penalties. Loot drop, lvl loss, whatever. I used to PvP and it was fun. I totally refuse to PvP here, with anyone for any reason, because I don't want to jerk some powerbuilders ego. There are players I enjoy to play with, there are players I categorically ignore and it is fine.

So if the PvP is a problem for you, I think you should either do it my way (ignore pvpers), or build a powerbuild and waste them, or change a server. I am sure my opinions do not reflect the opinion of many and many, but then again, it is my opinion. Accept it, reject it, ignore it... viva la democracia.

Edit : After reading TYP's post, which is btw the best post here thus far, imho, I would like to add that I do not include in my opinion above faction pvp. For example Knights vs. Necromancers... that's the kind of situation for another discussion.

Conflict without actual fighting strikes me as empty; you can RP your organization/faction/club/tea circle to the hilt, but without being able to put the rubber to the road, it's just masturbation. If you're an order of paladins and you let the flagrantly fiend-blooded walk the streets unharassed you're breaking character. At the same time, common sense says rules need to be in place so that Lawful Stupid players - who, in my experience, are WAY worse than Chaotic Stupid players - don't grief every other person they come across. It's also common sense, though, that good without evil isn't much fun to play.

My issue with CvC (and you know the kind of player I am because I don't call it PvP) is that it strongly favors combat oriented powerbuilds, which neither encourages good RP or strong characters. I know PnP isn't the final word here, but my experiences with PnP have taught me that you do want one powerbuilder in your group, so you can survive combat, but if it's a choice between a powerbuilder and someone who can plan, go with the planner. Having someone who is good at figuring out the DM's maps, plot lines, remembering skills or contacts, that's really crucial.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem like there's a lot of room for that in NWN because of mechanical limitations. This reflects my play style, but in PnP I've always found social skill oriented characters far more 'powerful' than fighters. If I play a diplomacy oriented rogue and I'm being harassed by some paladins, I go down to the pub, make some friends, grease some palms, and make sure the guards arrive not long after they discover the body of a dead prostitute in their quarters. Thus, for a few gold coins, I do what would have cost my party half a dozen potions and a really tense fight. Those options just aren't available in NWN, so when it does come time for people or factions to mete out their conflict, they tend to use the options that are available, namely, hitting each other in the face.

This is complicated by the fact that no one wants to lose. I don't actually have a problem with people deciding OOCly the arc of an RP because it avoid a plot of potential pitfalls. For one, no one is angry when something happens; if they parties agreed that such and such would happen it won't hurt anyone's feelings when it does. For another, it allows for a much deeper plot than people might otherwise be willing to commit to by defining the boundaries at the start. I also think people are more willing to 'lose' if they lose on their terms. Having your character randomly jumped and, say, lose a hand sucks, but if through OOC discussion with other players you decide, 'Man, that would be cool, it can add a whole new depth to the character' you may end up really looking forward to getting to play out that your character's hand is now a bloody stump.

Of course, doing that doesn't require you go hostile at all, and functions merely by the mutual consent of the players. Equally, through it might look lame without a DM spawning you the NPC's, you can also role play hiring a dozen thugs to mug a character you can't possibly beat in actual CvC because that's how your character would deal with that particular problem. The issue is getting people who'll agree to RP that out, and the people who are cool with that tend not to powerbuild anyway, so it's a moot point.

So to return to the original point, but unless there's a major shift in how people approach conflict, CvC isn't going away, and RP without conflict just isn't fun. I would much prefer characters and factions be willing to lose, but I also don't see that happening. Most people who play to fight - knights, assassins, whatever - do so because they like winning, and RPing winning, and the feeling of being the awesome ass-kicker that most PnPers get when they clear out the local orc hideout. The catch here is that orcs are computers, and computers are no challenge; you need a human to do that. In PnP that human is the DM, but here, those humans are other players. Thus, in order to feel like they're winning, they have to crush other humans.

And that's just how people roll.

TYP wrote:

Conflict without actual fighting strikes me as empty; you can RP your organization/faction/club/tea circle to the hilt, but without being able to put the rubber to the road, it's just masturbation...

..It is a game. It's all masturbation anyway. PvP is just a hollow kink to it, not some resolution that makes anything essentially hold any value. Kind of what this whole topic is about, really.

Inflammatory much?

Ummma wrote:

TYP wrote:

Conflict without actual fighting strikes me as empty; you can RP your organization/faction/club/tea circle to the hilt, but without being able to put the rubber to the road, it's just masturbation...

..It is a game. It's all masturbation anyway. PvP is just a hollow kink to it, not some resolution that makes anything essentially hold any value. Kind of what this whole topic is about, really.

I'm not sure I agree. If we're RPing correctly, the things that hold value are the things that our characters would value, right? If a character derives spiritual fulfillment from, say, obeying Tyr's call to oppose evil and injustice, then, well... a paladin is a warrior class. Sometimes (not necessarily always, or even most of the time, but sometimes) that opposition is going to take the form of hunting down an evil thing and whacking it with swords. That is a *good* thing. Likewise with, say, a kobold vs gnomes, or a dwarf vs orcs, or whatever. These conflicts are the most primal forces that shape the shared world. They are a *good* thing, *if* they are portrayed compellingly and with due deference to the fact that among the fundamental principles of any game is that the players deserve to be treated fairly and with respect.

So I don't buy the assertion that "PvP is just a hollow kink." It's not. Good PvP (or at least the threat of it) makes the world go round. To say that PvP can never really "mean" anything is the same thing as saying that the game itself can never mean anything, and if that's the case, why are we here?

As an aside this whole use of the respawn function as a legitimate IC thing is something new(ish) and not cool. As people are often want to do whilest I was a DM if someone tried respawning in PvP and storming back to where they were I damn well DM killed his ass and parked his corpse right where it should be.

Lizzie wrote:

Good PvP (or at least the threat of it) makes the world go round.

I agree. I have rarely seen any - the best of which involved no rollplay (purely rp'ed combat, not a battle of the builds). Last 2 PvP events (no names mentioned) 1: Two-shotted at random while passing through an area as a wyrmling - they didn't even stop to hostile till after death, never mind do any RP. 2: Randomly attacked passing through an area, again as a wyrmling, and again without wasting time to hostile (they left a conversation to run over and kill, then came up with some junk excuse). I won't waste my time even trying to RP with them. I just ignore them and/or log out.

And Selmak, It's not inflammatory. Merely pointing out that PvP is not conception. It's all just a game, something we do for fun.

It is nice that PvP is possible, keeps the characters on edge, but, if you wish to avoid it, for the complications and time consuming arguments right after, it is nice that you can do that as well. It is also nice to Rp sparring sessions, within a faction, or just in the arena for fun.
What may be the downside of PvP, is the constant need to dismember, nulify the body, the char, and all rp, leaving someone to just Rp being dead till the end of reset, wether it is retribution, or just tradition, it can be tiresome in the end. Would be nice to see more raising, instead of OOC raising, so you beat someone, send them home now with a beating to think over.

Meh- I don't see what the OP is experiencing.. then again I'm just a cheese/powerbuild who only RPs and doesn't care about loosing.

A little back ground history... I came from a server and all I did was PVP and RP on an Action server. I have died so many times and have won so many times.. in my mind it's just part of the game. One of the main reasons I like this server is because all different styles can come together and play here. I'll admit I have my groups I play with but I never shut anyone out on purpose in fact I welcome anyone who wants to play with me. I even give second or third chances to players if there has ever been an OOC conflict. People are capable of learning and playing the way you like can also influence others to do the same.

Also why do these discussion have to include me picturing naughty and gross thoughts.. just saying keep your dicks out of it. >>

Ummma wrote:

And Selmak, It's not inflammatory. Merely pointing out that PvP is not conception. It's all just a game, something we do for fun.

It's the unnecessary comparison to the topic. Do not want mental images. Please.

Sorry, I was just rolling with the theme..
Another parallel could be films. There are many, many genres of films. None of them are right, and non of them are wrong, it is all just personal choice. Not every film needs explosions. Not every story requires actual combat to generate conflict. Often the scariest horrors are the ones you never (or only rarely) see the threat..

I had a longer post in mind originally but I'll summarize it:

PvP when used in moderation and with adequate roleplay and cause can provide an interesting vehicle for story driving. However, at the same time I have seen cases of it unfortunately going to the extent where people who normally might be bale to deal with or in some cases find some joy in PvP lose their enjoyment.

*thanks the DM team first for reopening this.*

This post is in keeping with the spirit of the OP as well as another matter that was dealt with more privately.

For everyone here who has posted politely and respectfully; Thank you very much. It is encouraging and hopefully we will actually take something from this.

For those who feel that they have not encountered what the OP means, I cordially ask if you consider the following questions please. These are honest questions and they are not being asked to incite, belittle or things of that nature. The OP has a genuine concern and so do many of us. Please bear with me in the reading of this.

Just a list of questions to consider. They were only asked for something for players to mentally chew over as I have been recently. Not every character concept will have those questions apply to them, though if a concept seems to not have it, perhaps ask 'why doesn't it?' It doesn't need to be answered here though if you wish to, please continue to do so in a constructive manner. I'm very sure the DMs will be glad to read a thought and feeling that is constructive as will other players and this thread is a chance to air out general things. More specific ones might be better to bring to PMs if it is felt it might initiate less than constructive posts.

For the 'doesn't apply to my PC' feelings, that's wonderful and thank you for contributing to the server overall with engaging RP that welcomes back players and makes them feel that Amia is an exciting server for either indepth RP or well rounded player to player conflict as they wish.

colanah wrote:

Is it that you continuously find good RP because you are surrounded by those you know can provide it or you generate it yourself in some ways?

Yes

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How much of the great RP that you have experienced over the last year was IC and how much was a fun feeling that was bolstered from pchat mingled in?

Did not understand the question.

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Has anyone noticed the lesser number of posts made in GD? Less threads started in Improve Amia (outside of their own)?

Haven't paid attention to it. NWN is a dying game.

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Has anyone spoken with a friend and had to try to convince them that a small request will not be flamed on by the DMs/players or get them banned/black listed?

No need to convince anyone of that.

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Did anyone you really enjoy RPing with as a player stop playing and it was later found out that they would rather kill of the character than risk the forums? Risk what they feel to be a lack of RP?

Nope. Can not see how such could happen.

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How often does the PC often played interact with anyone outside of the group they are a part of? Do it feel as if those interactions could be seen as enjoyable to the other person who is outside of the group?

Sufficiently

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When was the last time a personal PC said something to encourage RP to a strange PC/Login never seen before?

Recently

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Has anyone been rude to or pvped someone new to return to RP they were previously engaged in?

Nope. Ignoring a crowd a character would not bother to pay attention to is what most do.

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Does a favorite PC initiate RP or simply stand back and watch for others to initiate it? Once begun, does the initiating PC contribute or not?

Yes yes

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Have you had a concept for a PC, a request or an innovation and felt no desire to post because of an aversion to the forums over the last year? Felt it wouldn't be appreciated by the playerbase/DM so hesitated to bother posting it?

Of course not. Amians are awesome.

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Has something happened which was felt to be against the rules but rather than seeking clarification, it was ignored for fear of reprisal if it was brought up?

Nope. I have good experiences about tricky questions and settling misunderstandings.

There. All good from my point of view.

If there was no fear of getting to DM's bad side, for being open and honest with the issues which bother you, this thread would be a whole lot different. That is why the whole wall of text I wrote is deleted and gone forever.

Ummma wrote:

It's all masturbation anyway.

Which explains why I am sweaty and out of breath when I log out.

tl;dr

Bottom line - I've never seen any of this, but then I've only been in PvP twice. Once because I was with some friend IG and they got jumped after some talking. Actually stayed out of it until that point, because my char wasn't going to let them get jumped and just stand there. I died lol, but it was fun. The second was a Malarite shifted dragon trying to take a dead body, so after several warnings to leave her the group of twenty of us had to put her down. That was clean PvP, imo, because warnings were given and the offender didn't back down. Short as it was, it was spicy and fun.

In any case, I avoid PvP. The fact that I can lolrespawn doesn't make me bloodthirsty. In fact, my main prefers to stay out of PvP situations because he has no reason to fight someone.

Naivatkal wrote:

tl;dr

Bottom line - I've never seen any of this, but then I've only been in PvP twice. Once because I was with some friend IG and they got jumped after some talking. Actually stayed out of it until that point, because my char wasn't going to let them get jumped and just stand there. I died lol, but it was fun. The second was a Malarite shifted dragon trying to take a dead body, so after several warnings to leave her the group of twenty of us had to put her down. That was clean PvP, imo, because warnings were given and the offender didn't back down. Short as it was, it was spicy and fun.

In any case, I avoid PvP. The fact that I can lolrespawn doesn't make me bloodthirsty. In fact, my main prefers to stay out of PvP situations because he has no reason to fight someone.

why do you even bother posting? tl;dr.

Both of y'all knock it off. Respect others' opinions, Laktavian, and Dead, don't insult. They opened this up for us to prove we could be something other than 13-year-old trolls, let's not prove them wrong (Or right, in Tormak's case)

I was reading this over and felt an examining response to Axileigh's earlier post was warranted:

AxlLeigh wrote:

In both PVP and the OOCness, since they are very often tied together ("This guy PVPs me all the time, me and My Buddies are gonna ignore him/gank him/get him kicked out of X faction, he'll see!" or "I hate how this guy plays X race. I'm gonna have a real X [Dwarf/gnome/mage/pally/Guy Named Bob] kick the shit out of him and show him how it's done." and that kind of stuff), there is one rule. And we all learned it in grade school...so imagine how embarrassed I am at 32 that I just remembered it?

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you." The golden rule. For those with shaky English, "Treat people how you want them to treat you."

My response is that this is indeed a golden rule, and it is not the kind of thing that once taught (as it was, attempted to be taught to us in grade school) stays with you forever. The ancient Greeks spent years ponderously chasing the method of teaching this to their youth so that capitalism would not suppress democracy, that is the equal rights of the many, in society. Teachers of wise things, or sophists, were often devoted solely to teaching a man how to virtuously manage his own affairs; and the teachings themselves were often criticized harshly because it is highly debatable that this is not the kind of rule that can really be taught to someone. It is rather that they must learn it by their own capacity to experience it in the world.

This is called political virtue, and it is the standard by which a "good" man was thought to conduct himself in society. In short, not everyone is capable of understanding the concept behind the rule that you proposed because it is really up to each individual to learn it through his or her own experience. This is the justification for the justice system as it was originally in society, that people who do bad things should not be killed outright or banished but rather that an attempt at reform must be made so they might recognize their own potential to behave virtuously.

To derive relevant meaning from this idea of political virtue within the discussion about pvp, we can say that the conduct of someone's character is in a perfect representation supposed to display that character's degree of virtuosity, whether that is a deficit of virtue or an abundant understanding of it. The issue we encounter is that it is not a universally accepted challenge among the player base to display the character's degree of virtue, but that instead we see peoples' real-world virtuousness overriding their attempts at displaying a fictional character and thus inspiring people to cast away the precious and elusive "role play" that we are all chasing in favor of imposing force via game mechanics on other players, which is an act that displays the player's lacking virtuousness. This is why we constantly see complaints that people have "only seen two occasions where there was justified and expertly RPed pvp," etc. People want to be convinced that their fictional characters are being cut down as a result of another character's lack of virtue, not as a result of another player's lack of virtue. It is then the duty of the pvper to convince their opponent of this before engaging in pvp. This is something which is not done with a display of force but with a display of realistic role-playing; it involves typing words to the other party to convince them.

I will attempt to reform my argument as a "golden rule" for roleplaying.
The challenge of a role playing community is for the player base (including for the sake of brevity the staff and moderators of the community under the label "player base") to be virtuous to one another separate from the concerns of the fictional characters that are represented in the game world.

Everyone knows that the justice system is flawed, but we have an advantage over the real-world system in that we operate over the internet rather than in the real world. Our moderators can punish as they see fit including through communal banishment, and if they wield their powers virtuously then the community will greatly benefit from them.

I have an idea about how we might re-approach the challenge of maintaining a virtuous RPing community. Suppose that a person misrepresents a character and engages in volatile pvp actions or metagaming. Restrict their access to the character specific to the offense that was misrepresented for a time, rather than forum banning or game banning for a time. Place them on a "monitor closely" list and follow them around in game if need be. I think that it will do good to attempt to teach our offenders the error of misrepresenting their characters in this way, rather than simply removing their voice from the community for a time. Even temporary banning only creates bitterness and if it is permanent then it is the same as the death penalty in our simple internet community; a chief argument against the death penalty is that it is the permanent removal of human ideas from the human community.

I have to say...that while your idea makes sense, Khaun, there simply are not enough DMs to do it. There just aren't. You'd need a couple of dozen to actually do that and ensure it was done equally. We have to make things feasible for the staff in the scope of the size of the staff we have. Not always what would be the absolute best. On a server where the staff is notoriously "hands off" toward RP and quests, the server I worked on was /still/ inundated by players from the time you logged in til the time you logged off the client. Here, the DMs are much more directly involved. To an astonishing degree, to anyone who has the faintest inkling of what they do. Rebuilds. Bugs. Fixes. Unique items. DC wands. QUESTS omg. It would just...be way, way too much, and the community as a whole would suffer.

Yeah I see the logic you have there. Treat my suggestion for a fix as an afterthought to the suggestion that players just act in accordance with this:

Me wrote:

People want to be convinced that their fictional characters are being cut down as a result of another character's lack of virtue, not as a result of another player's lack of virtue. It is then the duty of the pvper to convince their opponent of this before engaging in pvp. This is something which is not done with a display of force but with a display of realistic role-playing; it involves typing words to the other party to convince them.

Khaunwalksthisearth wrote:

. The ancient Greeks spent years ponderously chasing the method of teaching this to their youth so that capitalism would not suppress democracy, that is the equal rights of the many, in society.

Hate me for going off topic right off the bat, but this made me lolwat? a bit, on account of capitalism wasn't invented yet. That said, the underlying idea presented here:

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I will attempt to reform my argument as a "golden rule" for roleplaying.
The challenge of a role playing community is for the player base (including for the sake of brevity the staff and moderators of the community under the label "player base") to be virtuous to one another separate from the concerns of the fictional characters that are represented in the game world.

is quite valid because it draws attention to the difference between in and out of character interactions. Just because I oppose your character does not mean I've got something against you. However, referring to my own point, because so many people play to win, by opposing their character you are prevent the player from fulfilling their personal needs, which is when things go wrong. Khau's solution might work, but I don't think there's enough administrative resources (time) to handle all the possible complaints. Which punts it back to the players, which is really where it's most likely to be solved anyway. And by most likely, I mean not at all.

Although, I suppose if there are enough people who want to promote 'virtuous' RP, we can make our own little circle and stay within it. Make up our own plots and conflicts, but be on good terms OOCly so we know we won't have to deal with all that crap. If anyone is interested in that, shoot me a PM and we can start the list.

Gobo-kobo wrote:

If there was no fear of getting to DM's bad side, for being open and honest with the issues which bother you, this thread would be a whole lot different. That is why the whole wall of text I wrote is deleted and gone forever.

There is more than one DM, it's quite the feat to get on all of our bad sides.

Also:

Silent2001 wrote:

Your disappointment is noted, and now I lock this thread to save you from everyone elses disappointment at your disappointment creating a big flame fest that disappoints me.

One day? Really!?

Told you so.

I gave this thread until page 2 before it would be locked on account of your collective meanness. Looks like I was too generous.

Fool me once, shame on me!

Sorry for the lockpost (I hate doing these) But leyt me clarify (being the complaint DM) I will be damned if I ever personally fault a player for lodging a PM complaint to me. I will never do it. It will not happen.

Smack me with a wet noodle, why don't you. Geez.

The type of server we play on.

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