AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

I was thinking of making a halfling fighter/rogue/WM, so my question is wether shortsword is finessable on a halfling?

It is!

Naivatkal wrote:

11 Druid/19 Shifter

With epic spell pen it will be 26 spell pen, correct?
What about caster level? How does that work for the shifter levels?
And what about access to spell tiers? Does the Shifter class give access like PM levels, or would the above spread be limited to level 6 spells?

Trying my hand at a shifter build and dunno where to start. Making something up that I will post later, but I wanted to ask these questions.

Half shifter levels goes into spell penetration which you add to your druid levels, according to Tarich, who only plays shifter.

You don't get bonus spells. 6 spells only. I would suggest 10 druid/19 shifter/1 bard though for disc, concentration, taunt and spellcraft--- oh, and tumble... and umd.

Curious. 25ranger/4ftr/1rog using dual wielded Kukri (skinning knives). Would DEX be the best route for that, or STR?

Sin4given wrote:

Curious. 25ranger/4ftr/1rog using dual wielded Kukri (skinning knives). Would DEX be the best route for that, or STR?

Well I have a dex based ranger who is setup exactly like that with dual Kukri xD Your damage is lacking at times... but the bane feat and companion help make up for it. Strength based in general though would perform better though since the damage would be higher and dev crit.

Ulir wrote:

Soooo. Plannin on making another rdd type of character and wondering if I should go for something similar to my old one.
Fighter 8/Bard 4/RDD 18, or get Fighter 18/Bard 3/RDD 9?
The latter will bring +2 AB, +2 fort (from feats alone, not natural save progression) but -1 AC, -50% electricity immunity, -paralysis immunity, -immunity to sleep, -9d10 breath weapon (from 18d10).

I do prefer the build that is strong on RDD levels, but having 48 instead of 46 ab (no buffs) is also nice, but not necessarily needed.

What would you pick and why? Perhaps you have other builds to suggest? (blue dragon disciple, so it has to be within one step of LE)

For fun you could go and do a 15 RDD 8 Bard 7 WM.

You will get more bang out of a 18 2 10 but bang isn't as good as fun. . .so I'm in the process of making my RDD/WM for fun. . .except he's brass. . .and wields a dagger. Accidental hero you understand.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Sin4given wrote:

Curious. 25ranger/4ftr/1rog using dual wielded Kukri (skinning knives). Would DEX be the best route for that, or STR?

Well I have a dex based ranger who is setup exactly like that with dual Kukri xD Your damage is lacking at times... but the bane feat and companion help make up for it. Strength based in general though would perform better though since the damage would be higher and dev crit.

I was thinking STr would be better, yea. DEX would be fun but it seems a waste if Epic Dodge isn't granted I guess.

Sin4given wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Sin4given wrote:

Curious. 25ranger/4ftr/1rog using dual wielded Kukri (skinning knives). Would DEX be the best route for that, or STR?

Well I have a dex based ranger who is setup exactly like that with dual Kukri xD Your damage is lacking at times... but the bane feat and companion help make up for it. Strength based in general though would perform better though since the damage would be higher and dev crit.

I was thinking STr would be better, yea. DEX would be fun but it seems a waste if Epic Dodge isn't granted I guess.

Well you do get more AC through the dex build, and free dual wielding feats. Either way you will be fine.

Ah, true. I was hoping to sort of hold tight to the ranger build and not wear full plate. I could wear leather and still have alot of AC, or is it cloth.. The dex bonus cap on leather affects AB/Ac, doesn't it?

Sin4given wrote:

Ah, true. I was hoping to sort of hold tight to the ranger build and not wear full plate. I could wear leather and still have alot of AC, or is it cloth.. The dex bonus cap on leather affects AB/Ac, doesn't it?

Correct. Its leather in the beginning but you quickly switch to cloth once your Dex mod builds up.

Well DEX seems the way to go. STR does seem more fun and the damage being dealt would probably hurt like hell but I'm guessing my AC on a STr build would be poor.

Mav, is yours a regular human?

Sin4given wrote:

Well DEX seems the way to go. STR does seem more fun and the damage being dealt would probably hurt like hell but I'm guessing my AC on a STr build would be poor.

Mav, is yours a regular human?

No >.< Mine is a Wereboar Malarite Elf. So +2 dex from the base race. Also the AC on the str build would be pretty generic, along the lines of any other fighter/wm build.

Standard Tumble Tank AC is 55.

Dex based AC without uncanny dodge is fucking iffy because if you get caught flatfoot say good buy to your tumble, dodge and dex AC. Thats generally 29 AC on a Dexer. Ergo that 5 AC you have over the tumble tank isn't worth a whole lot.

MoshingChris wrote:

Standard Tumble Tank AC is 55.

Dex based AC without uncanny dodge is [removed] iffy because if you get caught flatfoot say good buy to your tumble, dodge and dex AC. Thats generally 29 AC on a Dexer. Ergo that 5 AC you have over the tumble tank isn't worth a whole lot.

For the record standard tumble tank AC with +4 gear is around 50ish. Everyone says 55 cause they have too much epic gear + scrolls for their own good.

For the record

+4 Haste +4 Dodge +1 Mage Armor = 9
Deflection = 4
Natural = 4
Base = 10
Dex = 1
Fullplate = 8
Armor AC Bonus = 4
Tower = 3
Tower AC Bonus = 4
Tumble = 6
Armor Skin = 2

AC total = 55

Last edited by Sin4given on Fri, Jun 10 2011, 16:28 PM, edited 2 times in total.

48, actually. I'm going to be a dual wielder. The tower shield/bonus doesn't count for me =/

But yes, with sword/board, I'll have around that much. Will go large shield honestly, as it would look cooler and make more sense for the guy to have a nice woodsy shield and not a giant hunk of steel.

Decided not to take kukris as it would waste a feat. Stuck bewteen handaxe/shortsword.

Silly Sin4Given just because you can dual wield doesn't stop you using a towershield to tank with.

Ulir wrote:

Well, you will get it no matter what. Just saying.

Btw, do you need to take Thundering and Terrifying Rage on barb levels?

No, only Mighty Rage needs to be taken on a Barb level AFAIK. I'll give it a test later on.

Regarding Sin4given's curiosity about Fighter vs Barb builds, I did quickly make a test 20Barb/2Bard/7RDD and was sitting at 700 HP (Average +4 Amia gear) with a good Con/Str build and had Epic Damage Reduction 3, making him have 13/- DR which isn't bad against quick, low hitters. Ofcourse you could ditch the EDR levels and pick other epic feats but as I said it was quickly made.

MoshingChris wrote:

For the record

+4 Haste +4 Dodge +1 Mage Armor = 9
Deflection = 4
Natural = 4
Base = 10
Dex = 1
Fullplate = 8
Armor AC Bonus = 4
Tower = 3
Tower AC Bonus = 4
Tumble = 6
Armor Skin = 2

AC total = 55

Haste, Mage armor, and armor skin are eh at best. Haste is effy to include, it barely lasts any time at all and in PvM or PvP it is unrealistic at times to either waste them spawn after spawn, unless you are a rich mofo, or to take the time popping a potion before trying to dev/murder the opposing foe. Armor skin is also one of those things many might not have enough feats for so I don't like to just "include" it in all calculations.

To emphasis my point... haste being included in all calculations is like when people don't use certain spells or ignore most offensive spells classifying them as useless because there are buddy potions for example. When in reality most pvp situations don't allow the chance for you to drink 5 separate buff potions before they start, so their 'logic' is flawed when saying certain spells are useless.

What I see in a 'real' situation, cause most characters do not walk around fully buffed like some nubs, is only 50 AC on that build at best.

Last edited by Ulir on Fri, Jun 10 2011, 16:47 PM, edited 2 times in total.

MoshingChris wrote:

Ulir wrote:

Soooo. Plannin on making another rdd type of character and wondering if I should go for something similar to my old one.
Fighter 8/Bard 4/RDD 18, or get Fighter 18/Bard 3/RDD 9?
The latter will bring +2 AB, +2 fort (from feats alone, not natural save progression) but -1 AC, -50% electricity immunity, -paralysis immunity, -immunity to sleep, -9d10 breath weapon (from 18d10).

I do prefer the build that is strong on RDD levels, but having 48 instead of 46 ab (no buffs) is also nice, but not necessarily needed.

What would you pick and why? Perhaps you have other builds to suggest? (blue dragon disciple, so it has to be within one step of LE)

For fun you could go and do a 15 RDD 8 Bard 7 WM.

You will get more bang out of a 18 2 10 but bang isn't as good as fun. . .so I'm in the process of making my RDD/WM for fun. . .except he's brass. . .and wields a dagger. Accidental hero you understand.

I tried fitting wm into the mix, but somehow it didn't work as planned. Fun is best, aye. Bard song also helps a bunch. I'd like to know more of that build, if you have time to post a thing or two?
6 of 8 feats pre-epic is wm, then blindfight and critical. Epic with epic weapon focus, armor skin, overwhelming, devastating and epic prowess/or great strength?

Str: 17-28
Dex: 13
Con: 10-12
Int: 14-16
Wis: 8
Cha: 12-14 ? I fetched a bit charisma, since he needs to be charismatic and having a few spells is always nice.

Now I am torn. Fiddling with a barb 20/bdd 7/bard 3 mix, bard 22/ftr 6/bdd 2. But the wm intriques me. Gonna try putting something together.

Edit: Ok, found a fun build, but is a two-hander.. or macer, which should be fun to try. Prolly going with mace, although spear would be kickarse and fit rp. ARGH, torn again..

Thanks for the tip

Last edited by Ulir on Sat, Jun 11 2011, 21:21 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Str: 17-28
Dex: 13
Con: 10-12
Int: 14-16
Wis: 8
Cha: 12-14

1 B - Feats: Dodge, Mobility
2 B
3 B - Feat: Weapon Focus: x
4 B - Str: 18
5 B - Lore 8
6 B - Feat: Expertise
7 BDD
8 BDD - +2 Str, Str: 21
9 BDD - Feat: Spring Attack
10 BDD - +2 Str
11 BDD
12 BDD - Feat: Whirlwind Attack, Str: 24
13 WM
14 WM
15 WM - Feat: Improved Critical
16 WM - Str: 25
17 WM - Wooo
18 WM - Feat: Blind Fight
19 BDD - +2 Con
20 BDD - Str: 26
21 WM - Weee, Feat: Armor Skin
22 B - Skill dump
23 BDD - +2 Int
24 BDD - Feat: Epic Weapon Focus, +2 Cha, Str: 27
25 BDD
26 BDD
27 BDD - Feat: Epic Fortitude, +2 Con
28 BDD - Feat: Epic Prowess, Str: 28
29 BDD - +1 AC
30 B - Feat: Epic Prowess, Skill dump

Made a quick model. Mace ahoy! *whacks*

Ulir wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

11 Druid/19 Shifter

With epic spell pen it will be 26 spell pen, correct?
What about caster level? How does that work for the shifter levels?
And what about access to spell tiers? Does the Shifter class give access like PM levels, or would the above spread be limited to level 6 spells?

Trying my hand at a shifter build and dunno where to start. Making something up that I will post later, but I wanted to ask these questions.

Half shifter levels goes into spell penetration which you add to your druid levels, according to Tarich, who only plays shifter.

You don't get bonus spells. 6 spells only. I would suggest 10 druid/19 shifter/1 bard though for disc, concentration, taunt and spellcraft--- oh, and tumble... and umd.

So basically with Druid/Shifter you are sacrificing spells for more forms? Not a bad trade off, really, it seems.

Aye. 10 druid is fine. Grabbing all those skills is a great tradeoff. You already got that wis boost spell at level 5 or so, can't remember. Plus, if you throw 3 points in perform you can be a vampire tenor

(although 1x bard song is not worth using skills on).

You get some neat buffs through different shapes, like mage armor, stoneskin, improved invisibility (undead), camouflage, elemental shield haste etc. You quickly forget your druid spells and focus on the shapes, which are great fun.

Cool, about what I thought. Here's the feats I nabbed so far:

Ffolk
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 10
WIS: 19 (27)
INT: 10
CHA: 9

Alertness, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, Undead Shape, Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration, Great Wisdom I, Construct Shape

Wasn't quite sure on stats (other than lolWIS), and skills I can figure. Dunno if STR/DEX/CON even matter because of shifting and all

Naivatkal wrote:

Wasn't quite sure on stats (other than lolWIS), and skills I can figure. Dunno if STR/DEX/CON even matter because of shifting and all

I -think- they somehow get counted (I've never made a shifter, never want to either) because if you recall all of those Wis stacked shifter dragons that had Monk levels taken for the AC? Although it may have been purely from Wis gear, I don't know.

Naivatkal wrote:

Cool, about what I thought. Here's the feats I nabbed so far:

Ffolk
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 10
WIS: 19 (27)
INT: 10
CHA: 9

Alertness, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, Undead Shape, Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration, Great Wisdom I, Construct Shape

Wasn't quite sure on stats (other than lolWIS), and skills I can figure. Dunno if STR/DEX/CON even matter because of shifting and all

You ended on an odd ability score yet again! I am going to smite you.

There's no point in taking Maximise Spell without the outsider shapes, and even if you did, you need more druid levels to take advantage of it. A shifter doesn't need physical ability scores much, but they are benefited by INT, as it lets them take both Improved Knockdown and Expertise.

You're missing Improved Critical, also. Ditch all those silly metamagic feats, and take Outsider Shape. Rakshasa is a really versatile form and considering you're set up to be a caster shifter, the absence of it is a bit odd.

That RDD 15 Bard 8 WM 7
Can also be done
RDD 10, Bard 7, WM 13

Pre-Epic: Weapon Master 6 feats, Improved Critical, Blindfight
Epic: Armorskin, Prowess, EWF, Epic Fort, Epic Discipline, Great Strength 1 (if you start on even strength)

Mine wields a dagger, but I could see a spear being amazing aswell.

It goes Bard 5, RDD 8, Weapon Master 6, Bard 1 in pre-epic

Then

RDD 2, Weapon Master 7, Bard 1 in epic

AB is

2 From WM + 4 EWF/Prowess + 17 STR Mod + 16 pre-epic BAB + 5 epic BAB + 4 enhance = 48 AB.

Comparably the 18 Fighter 2 Bard 10 RDD nets

18 Pre-epic + 4 EWF/Prowess + 17 STR Mod + 5 Epic + 4 enhance = 48

The choice realistically is between Devastating, Epic Weapon Spec and martial weapons and tons more feats and improved Crit Range and multiplier.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Cool, about what I thought. Here's the feats I nabbed so far:

Ffolk
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 10
WIS: 19 (27)
INT: 10
CHA: 9

Alertness, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, Undead Shape, Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration, Great Wisdom I, Construct Shape

Wasn't quite sure on stats (other than lolWIS), and skills I can figure. Dunno if STR/DEX/CON even matter because of shifting and all

You ended on an odd ability score yet again! I am going to smite you.

There's no point in taking Maximise Spell without the outsider shapes, and even if you did, you need more druid levels to take advantage of it. A shifter doesn't need physical ability scores much, but they are benefited by INT, as it lets them take both Improved Knockdown and Expertise.

You're missing Improved Critical, also. Ditch all those silly metamagic feats, and take Outsider Shape. Rakshasa is a really versatile form and considering you're set up to be a caster shifter, the absence of it is a bit odd.

Hahahah yeah, I do that :3

Max Spell needed to be taken out anyways, cause I found out about spell tiers being limited to druid levels. And dunno if I'll have the slots for extend spells to be useful, even.

Thanks for the info, I already shifted the 12 dex to 12 int earlier lol SO yeah, I'll make up the changes and see what happens. Posting revised tomorrow.

And speaking of Imp Crit, what's a good weapon for druids? I'm thinking of just going with a staff or dagger, cause I cannot see a druid used a scimitar (ie metal obviously) ... or was that a different class? lol

Are there still restrictions on when you can take Devastating Critical? (Apart from the prerequisites.) I think you used to have to be level 25+ to have it?

There's none.

Thankyou!

Sin4given wrote:

Decided not to take kukris as it would waste a feat. Stuck between handaxe/shortsword.

Handaxes. Assuming that you'll be packing a longbow in there, you don't want the same damage type on both your ranged weapon and your primary melee weapons.

P.S. Armour only impacts your AC bonus maximum from high dexterity. It doesn't nerf your Dex bonus to AB

Thinking of frebuilding.

Got a Human 23Pal/6Mnk/1Rgr. STR based, with Dev Crit. Uses a Warhammer as closest approximation of Deities favoured weapon. But I'm thinking of swapping feats over to Spear. Much more interesting weapon. But....dear gods, my AC. Got Divine shield, but given the STR focus its not especially powerful. How to balance the stats of a Paladin with a two handed weapon? Wouldn't be ideal but I don't mind giving up Dev Crit for a better balance.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Thinking of frebuilding.

Got a Human 23Pal/6Mnk/1Rgr. STR based, with Dev Crit. Uses a Warhammer as closest approximation of Deities favoured weapon. But I'm thinking of swapping feats over to Spear. Much more interesting weapon. But....dear gods, my AC. Got Divine shield, but given the STR focus its not especially powerful. How to balance the stats of a Paladin with a two handed weapon? Wouldn't be ideal but I don't mind giving up Dev Crit for a better balance.

You really won't find any builds with even moderately decent AC if you're using a 2H weapon. Sacrificing the 8AC that a shield can give is painful unless you spec heavily into CHA for Divine Shield.

If we talk PvM and a halfway decent party there are enough builds to go twohanded, actually.

Last edited by Naivatkal on Sat, Jun 11 2011, 22:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Right, here's that Druid/Shifter build with a Bard level thrown in at the end.

Druid(10), Shifter(19), Bard(1), Ffolk
STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 10
WIS: 19 (28)
INT: 13
CHA: 10

01: Druid(1): Alertness, Extend Spell
02: Druid(2)
03: Druid(3): Weapon Focus
04: Druid(4): WIS+1, (WIS=20)
05: Druid(5)
06: Shifter(1): Spell Penetration
07: Shifter(2)
08: Shifter(3): WIS+1, (WIS=21)
09: Druid(6): Knockdown
10: Shifter(4)
11: Shifter(5)
12: Druid(7): WIS+1, Improved Critical, (WIS=22)
13: Shifter(6)
14: Shifter(7)
15: Druid(8): Expertise
16: Shifter(8): WIS+1, (WIS=23)
17: Shifter(9)
18: Shifter(10): Improved Knockdown
19: Druid(9)
20: Druid(10): WIS+1, (WIS=24)
21: Shifter(11): Undead Shape
22: Shifter(12)
23: Shifter(13): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=25)
24: Shifter(14): WIS+1, Greater Spell Penetration, (WIS=26)
25: Shifter(15)
26: Shifter(16): Outsider Shape
27: Shifter(17): Epic Spell Penetration
28: Shifter(18): WIS+1, (WIS=27)
29: Shifter(19): Construct Shape
30: Bard(1): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=28)

Concentration 33(33), Craft Armor 2(3), Craft Weapon 2(3), Discipline 33(33), Perform 3(3), Spellcraft 33(34), Spot 32(43), Tumble 30(30), UMD 30(30)

The two points in Craft Weapon/Armor is purely because I had two points left over and I figured why not.

Are you ever going to play those characters Naivatkal? Not that it matter or is my business, but I see you post a new build every week!

I have too much time on my hands now, at least until I go back to work :<

But yes, I kinda do plan to. I make every build with two intentions:

1) A character idea has struck me and I want to put it to paper

2) To learn how to actually build x character

My question: spell-based clerics are useful here or better is typical combat-casting hybrid? If so, could someone advice me how to build this spell cleric? I mean attributes and feats.
Thanks in advance!

Cleric28 Monk1 (or rogue) Ranger1 - get ESF: evocation, conjuration, ESF:spot. The rest is up to you. Your end WIS with items should be 38-40 depending on subrace. Extend/Max spell is a must. Even a caster cleric doesn't suck at PvM, being a cleric and such.

viewtopic.php?p=966191#p966191

Realized I still had Maximize Spell for some reason, reordered and replaced with Weapon Focus. Good idea?

Nope, terrible idea! Shifters gain no benefit from Weapon Focus, only Improved Critical.

I wasn't sure since I had not read that they did or did not.
Awesome, I'll just fine something to stick there, then lol

fake edit: Are they tankable enough (in certain forms) to benefit from Imp Expertise?

Quote:

Are they tankable enough (in certain forms) to benefit from Imp Expertise?

I'm not sure it's 100% true on this servers, but think that they are. Forms such as gorgoyle, undeads (especially risen lord), constructs, and even kobold benefits from Imp. Expertise. +10 AC to either dodgy forms like cobold or tanky forms like risen lord (very strong reductions I guess) is very nice. Also, in rakshasha form, when you're immune to most off spells, additional +10 kp grants greater survibality in meele fights.
But on the other hand, possibility hitting someone as a shifter with an additional -10 AB is very low, so it's a very bad disadvantage if you wanted to be offensive too.

They are absolutely tanky.

Well.

In my opinion!

Cory seems to tank just fine, but he built for it.

TormakSaber wrote:

They are absolutely tanky.

Well.

In my opinion!

Cory seems to tank just fine, but he built for it.

Lies! A true tank doesn't just take 0 damage from everything... he heals when he is hit >.>

Does mighty rage stack with the other rages on this server?

Quote:

Mighty Rage
Mighty Rage gives the following benefits:

+1 Universal Saves/7 Barbarian Levels
+5 Vampiric Regen
+10 Bonus HP/Barbarian Level.

From what I was recently told, all the rages stack except the standard rage, Unyielding Rage, and Intensity Rage. Those three you choose from and will stack with all the others.

The bonus ought to stack on top of the three base rages.

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

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