AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

AcousticShredder wrote:

Hey Everyone,

I was planning to build an Elven Ranger using both a longbow and dual shortswords. level split would be 14 Ranger/6 Fighter(all taken in epic for WS and EWS on both shortswords and longbow)/10 Rogue (for epic dodge). I am planning to go DEX based Starting with:
8 STR 20 DEX 12 CON 14 WIS 10 INT 8 CHA

I was wondering if anyone had recommendations of feats (basically, what are some must-have feats for this type of build?). And was basically wondering if that is a good level split, starting stats, and if anyone had better ideas for this type of character.

You need 13 Rogue levels for Epic Dodge.

Alternatively, 10 Shadowdancer levels.

Looks like i got the levels mixed up. So would 13 Rogue/11 Ranger/6 Fighter work then? Or should i drop ranger entirely?

Or I could go for 21-23 Ranger/6 Fighter/1-3 Rogue and drop epic dodge, this would get me a more powerful summon, all ranger spells, and Bane of Enemies. Is it worth it?

Ranger does best with 21 or 25 levels if you want a 'ranger' chap.
Else people just use it to fill out gaps in their builds.

Sin4given: Plain Rogue23/Fighter6/Whatever1 should work well.

AcousticShredder: The problem with the build is that the Ranger levels from 10 to 14 are just waste of space; you don't really benefit from them in any way. I'd go with a slightly different class distribution, just to nab Epic Dodge. Rogue16/Ranger10/Fighter4 is da shiz, yo. You can also now lower your WIS to 12.

As for feats, you should get at least the following necessities: Weapon focus, Weapon finesse, Blindfight, Improved critical, and KD. Pre-epic spread is Ranger8/Rogue12.

Is Epic Dodge better than 4th level ranger spells, BoE, and high level Animal companion, etc.? I envision my character to be more of a "ranger chap".

Also, if I was going to go with Uncle-Opustus' recommendation, is it worth dropping two ranger or rogue levels from that to get 6 fighter so I can get WS and EWS for both weapons?

Quote:

Is Epic Dodge better than 4th level ranger spells, BoE, and high level Animal companion, etc.?

Yes.

Epic Dodge is, literally, THE BEST feat. In the game. Period.

AcousticShredder wrote:

Also, if I was going to go with Uncle-Opustus' recommendation, is it worth dropping two ranger or rogue levels from that to get 6 fighter so I can get WS and EWS for both weapons?

You'd take both on the fourth level, there's no need for six.

And really, whatever floats your boat. A DEX Ranger25/Fighter4/Rogue1 works just splendidly, and yes, buildwise the Rogue16/Ranger10/Fighter4 is more of a Rogue, but RP-wise it'd be a Rogue/Ranger/Fighter no matter the numbers.

Got an interesting little number I've been working on for a potential character I may make if I ever have enough time to make it.

Monk 13/WM 13/Fighter 4

Race: Water Genasi (Human base)

Starting stats:
STR: 16 (24 with level ups and GS:I)
DEX: 14
CON: 10 (12)
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA: 8 (6)

Feats:
1 - Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
3 - WF: Kama, Blind-Fight
6 - Spring Attack
9 - Whirlwind Attack
12 - Imp. Crit: Kama
15 - Two-weapon Fighting
18 - SF: Spot
21 - EWF: Kama
23 - Armor Skin
24 - WS: Kama, EWS: Kama
27 - ESF: Spot
30 - Great Str: I

Skills:
Concentration (28), Discipline (33), Hide (33), Move Silently (33), Spot (26), Tumble (30)

The AC should be somewhere in the upper-50's and the AB in the upper-40's to lower 50's. Nothing too spectacular, but I think it would make for a pretty solid build all in all. The damage is nothing too spectacular, but with more attacks than a kid with ADHD, 10 grams of meth and a bad attitude, it's all about probability I think.

P.S. ~ I know I could trade out those skill foci in spot for something a bit more useful, but they're there because I want her to be pretty keen of eye and I couldn't get the score high enough to sate my creativity without the feats.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

You'd take both on the fourth level, there's no need for six.

The feats I want to take are WS & EWS for Shortsword and WS & EWS for Longbow as well. I would have to take the fourth level on a regular feat level for one of those pairs and the sixth level on another feat level for the other pair, right? My plan was to use both longbow and shortswords, depending on the party i'm in, the enemies, etc. I'm just wondering if this is worth losing 2 rogue or ranger levels over, and if those 3 feats would be better spent elsewhere.

You'd be better of going a heavier fighter/AA than ranger.

Something like 14 Fighter 3 Bard 13 AA or something.

Oh! Um... Irish Fluff... he made back in like Mk. 3 or below a build called Versatile Soldier that was setup to do both bow/sword combo. I believe it was a CoT Fighter Rogue build that was dex based with epic dodge... or close to it.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

I'd rather take Armor Skin, actually. Discipline is easy enough to raise with the right equipment, certainly enough that I wouldn't ditch 2 free AC for it.

Oops, in regards to this I was thinking the wrong build:

Armor Skin (+2 AC) or Great Dex 1 (+1 AB/+1 AC)? There was not room for ESF: Discipline in that particular build because it has Epic Dodge. I could sacrifice Epic Fort, too, I suppose?
The other full Monk one has ESF: Discipline, Armor Skin, and Great DEX 1 for an ending 26 DEX ^_^

ainjyll,

Don't bother with two-weapon fighting if you can't afford all the other feats. There are items that will help you do it, when you get a good corner for it if you want, but otherwise I'd recommend a two-handed weapon.

Also, Concentration isn't handy enough to be taken on a Monk. I'd start with INT 12 and take some away from MS and Hide to fill in Spot. But of course, if you want it, there's no harm in taking it.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

ainjyll,

Don't bother with two-weapon fighting if you can't afford all the other feats. There are items that will help you do it, when you get a good corner for it if you want, but otherwise I'd recommend a two-handed weapon.

Also, Concentration isn't handy enough to be taken on a Monk. I'd start with INT 12 and take some away from MS and Hide to fill in Spot. But of course, if you want it, there's no harm in taking it.

Feats:
1 - Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
3 - WF: Kama, Blind-Fight
6 - Spring Attack
9 - Whirlwind Attack
12 - Imp. Crit: Kama
15 - Two-weapon Fighting
18 - SF: Spot Ambidexterity!
21 - EWF: Kama
23 - Armor Skin
24 - WS: Kama, EWS: Kama
27 - ESF: Spot
30 - Great Str: I

And you should also consider trying the DEX Route(More AC). And because high dex gives you improved Whirlwind in epic levels (Its a personal favourite of mine) :wink:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Sin4given: Plain Rogue23/Fighter6/Whatever1 should work well.

.

That sounds nice, yea. What about 13rog/10ftr/7 SD? I was thinking it'd allow me to get Epic Dodge, plus Crippling strike which I think would be pretty nice. I'd use Rapier and a large shield, plus with the feats, I'd also get to keep rapid reload and imp. crit. crossbow while keeping all the weapons feats for the rapier. Sorry for being so picky on this, but I've also been talking to others about the build. 10/10/10 was an option, and it would work good, but I was thinking that the extra rog levels would be nice.

Sure. Rogue16/Fighter8/SD6 would look more intriguing to myself unless you thought of going Fighter8 pre-epic. 1d6 SA at the cost of Slipper Mind.

Ainjyll:

I think I'd only take 7 WM and go Bare Knuckle Bad@ss. Maybe 9 F and 7 WM pre-epic, taking 10-12 F in Epic (netting the same # of epic feats), ending at 11 Monk / 12 Fighter / 7 WM. Your AB stays the same, and you get another attack unarmed (BAB 19 pre-epic), AND your damage increases from 1d6 using kamas to 1d10 using fists, AND you get to reap the benefit of Deflect Arrow...not to mention TWF, Ambi, etc become irrelevant (Flurry of Blows is a better AB progression anyway). MANY more feats pre-epic lets you spend a few on saves, maybe another skill focus...round it out. Whatever you like.

And don't be a conformist: Dex and AC are only good for people who can't kill shit with lightning speed. You can have First Blood; I'll take LAST BLOOD! :twisted:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Sure. Rogue16/Fighter8/SD6 would look more intriguing to myself unless you thought of going Fighter8 pre-epic. 1d6 SA at the cost of Slipper Mind.

I thought 7 SD would get defensive roll, which would allow me to take crippling strike, while also getting Epic Dodge?

Defensive Roll at SD 5, HiPS 6, Slippery Mind 7, Imp Evasion 10

Here's where James is at so far... he does damage against L30's at 25, but I am not certain if this build is what I am looking for in a weapon master that can defend himself.

Quote:

Fighter 12
Rogue 3
Weapon Master 10
STR: 22
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 9
Concentration: 15
Discipline: 28
Heal: 28
Spot: 16
UseMagicDevice: 24
Tumble: 24
Intimidate: 4

Armor Proficiency Heavy
Armor Proficiency Light
Armor Proficiency Medium
Cleave
Dodge
Imp Knockdown
Iron Will
Knockdown
Mobility
Pow Attack
Shield Proficiency
Weap Prof: Exotic
Weap Prof: Martial
Weap Prof: Simple
Weap Prof: Rogue
Imp Crit: Bastard Sword
Weap Foc: Bastard Sword
Weap Spec: Bastard Sword
Uncanny Dodge 1
Evasion
Snk Attack
Quick To Master
Snk Attack 2
Expertise
Gr Cleave
Spring Attack
Blind Fight
Ep Weap Foc: Bastardsword
Whirlwind Attack
Ki Damage
Increase Multiplier
Superior Weap Foc:
Ki Critical
Weap Choice: Bastardsword
Ep Character

Any suggestions? Bear in mind that I know nothing of build mechanics, but I would like to learn.

Thank you Nai! Alright, looks like 16rog/8ftr/6SD is the way to go. I'm assume I'd take most of the fighter lvls in pre-epic for more BaB but leave some for epic for EWS/EWF. Remember, I am not losing all of my crossbow feats, I'm still keeping rapid reload and WF crossbow (
hopefully) but focusing a little more on my rapier and being a sneaker.

Help is always appreciated

Maverick00053 wrote:

Oh! Um... Irish Fluff... he made back in like Mk. 3 or below a build called Versatile Soldier that was setup to do both bow/sword combo. I believe it was a CoT Fighter Rogue build that was dex based with epic dodge... or close to it.

Do you have the full build, or at least more details? It isn't exactly what I was looking for, but it sounds like it could work (as long as it does, in fact, get epic dodge).

And again, If I was going for the 16Rogue/10Ranger/4Fighter, Should I take off two Rogue or Ranger levels to get 6 fighter for two sets of WS and EWS, and would I have enough feats to take two sets of WF,EWF,WS,EWS?

Also, Would a DEX-based build without epic dodge be a bad build? because, again, my original idea was for this to be a ranger, so would going the 25Ranger/4Fighter/1Rogue (or 23Ranger/6Fighter/1Rogue) route be a bad idea?

Yeah ill try and hunt down the build. It is going to take some time though since there are thousands of posts to go through.

Edit: Pew, I tried. I looked through Mark 2, 3, 4, and 5 for it and nothing. Mark 1 doesn't exist anymore so >.< Damn.

Janna Ogder wrote:

Here's where James is at so far... he does damage against L30's at 25, but I am not certain if this build is what I am looking for in a weapon master that can defend himself.

Quote:

Build-stuff-fu!

Any suggestions? Bear in mind that I know nothing of build mechanics, but I would like to learn.

What's his current classes and what do you plan on ending?
I know with Weapon Master, you want to end at 5, 7, 16 WM levels (either 16 or 13) for the best benefits of the class.

Just some info that would help with the build in general, the sort of stuff that gets asked for in here lol

well I didnt plan this build out, but I was going to go fighter 16, wm 10, rogue 4.

since I like this char, I think this is the one I will get my freebie reebie with

Do fighter 12/rogue 2/WM 16.

Be cooler do 12 Fighter 13 WM 5 Harper Scout dualwielding Gnomes.

What is the threat range on a gnome, anyway? I always like going for obscure, less-mainstream weapons on my WMs. It just seems more interesting to me.

TormakSaber wrote:

Do fighter 12/rogue 2/WM 16.

That was suggested twice before, so I think I'll go with it. Would a build progression scheme be available?

DerkDerkistan wrote:

What is the threat range on a gnome, anyway? I always like going for obscure, less-mainstream weapons on my WMs. It just seems more interesting to me.

You're cool, bro.

Janna Odger wrote:

That was suggested twice before, so I think I'll go with it. Would a build progression scheme be available?

Max STR, INT 13, DEX 13, bugger the rest of the abilities, Fighter10/WM10 pre-epic, take IKD and Dev pre-requisites, take Dev, save Rogue2 for level 27 at the earliest, land on an even STR, remember UMD, Discipline and Tumble.

MoshingChris wrote:

Be cooler do 12 Fighter 13 WM 5 Harper Scout dualwielding Gnomes.

I'm going to have to hurt you now.

Been thinking..

I'd go 10rog/6SD/4ftr Pre-epic and then 6rog/4ftr Epic for EWS/EWF tumble/umd/disc dumps, right?

These were my guys starting stats,
STR: 11
DEX: 17
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

Wondering if I need to pump up the DEX score one more point or not? He's getting a rebuild as he is 17 now

Does anyone know if having spell focus/greater spell focus/epic spell focus in abjuration improve on dispell checks for all types of dispell spells? (i.e mords, lesser, dispell, etc etc)

Janna Ogder wrote:

That was suggested twice before, so I think I'll go with it. Would a build progression scheme be available?

Personally I prefer 10/19/1, but that's just personal preference. Anyways, below is how I would do a bread and butter WM for James, customized to his setup. (Bastard sword, initial stats, aka having the WIS of 10 and CHA of 9, rather than 8 on both.)

Levels: 10 Ftr, 11 WM, 1 Rogue, 2 WM, 2 Fighter, 1 Rogue, 3 WM
16/13/14/14/10/9 (I'm assuming these are James's starting stats)
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency
1: Weapon Focus BastardSword
1*: Dodge
2*: Mobility
3: Expertise
4*: Weapon Specialization BastardSword
6: Spring Attack
6*: Whirlwind Attack
8*: IMPR Crit BastardSword
9: KD
10*: IKD
12: Power Attack
15: Cleave
18: G-Cleave
21: G-Str 1
24*: Armor Skin
24: G-Str 2
26*: Epic Weapon Focus
27: G-Str 3
30: OV Crit
30*: DV Crit
AB: 20+5+3+3(WM)+14(Str)+5(weapon) = 50

Sin4given wrote:

Been thinking..

I'd go 10rog/6SD/4ftr Pre-epic and then 6rog/4ftr Epic for EWS/EWF tumble/umd/disc dumps, right?

These were my guys starting stats,
STR: 11
DEX: 17
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

Wondering if I need to pump up the DEX score one more point or not? He's getting a rebuild as he is 17 now

I'd personally just sod the CHA, but I know you like this thing called RP or something, so rather bugger the STR and CON to invest it into DEX, so you don't have to bother about taking Great Dexterity II. Also, better if you went Rogue12/SD4/Fighter4 pre-epic to get the most out of AB - with 10rog/6SD/4ftr you wouldn't net the fourth attack.

But otherwise, that's about that, looks good.

Khaelesvhea wrote:

Does anyone know if having spell focus/greater spell focus/epic spell focus in abjuration improve on dispell checks for all types of dispell spells? (i.e mords, lesser, dispell, etc etc)

No, it doesnt.

Janna Ogder wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Do fighter 12/rogue 2/WM 16.

That was suggested twice before, so I think I'll go with it. Would a build progression scheme be available?

When i get home i can post a build layout from Excel.

Pretty simple:

Weapon Master as fast as possible. Also Opustus is slightly off, you want 11 Fighter 9 WM in pre-epic the reason being will become evident shortly.

Plain Jane Human
18str
13dex
12con
13int
8wis
8cha
1 - 6 Fighter: (8 Feats)

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus, Whirlwind Attack, Expertise, Power Attack, Exotic

7 - 15 Weapon Master (3 Feats)

Feats: Cleave, Imp Crit, Blindfight

16 - 20 Fighter (3 Feats)

Feats: Knockdown, Great Cleave, Weapon Spec

21 Fighter: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Spec (the reason you wanted 11 fighter in pre-epic)
22WM
23WM
24WM: Great Strength 1
25WM: Overwhelming Critical
26WM
27WM: Epic Fort
28Rogue
29Rogue
30WM: Armor Skin, Epic Prowess

Alright, I thought a really cool character concept would be a human, cleric/barb/ ?. I tried rogue, but perhaps someone has something more creative to put into the third spot?

I just can't figure it out though. I try it on a leveling server and it leads to sighs and frustration.

Screw that Exotic Proficiency, IKD is the way to go.

As for the Cleric/Barb question, a Barb17/Cleric12/Rogue1 ought to work just dandily. Also, you can replace Rogue with Bard at will.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Sin4given wrote:

Been thinking..

I'd go 10rog/6SD/4ftr Pre-epic and then 6rog/4ftr Epic for EWS/EWF tumble/umd/disc dumps, right?

These were my guys starting stats,
STR: 11
DEX: 17
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

Wondering if I need to pump up the DEX score one more point or not? He's getting a rebuild as he is 17 now

I'd personally just sod the CHA, but I know you like this thing called RP or something, so rather bugger the STR and CON to invest it into DEX, so you don't have to bother about taking Great Dexterity II. Also, better if you went Rogue12/SD4/Fighter4 pre-epic to get the most out of AB - with 10rog/6SD/4ftr you wouldn't net the fourth attack.

But otherwise, that's about that, looks good.

Alright, thanks Op!

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

Ainjyll:

I think I'd only take 7 WM and go Bare Knuckle Bad@ss. Maybe 9 F and 7 WM pre-epic, taking 10-12 F in Epic (netting the same # of epic feats), ending at 11 Monk / 12 Fighter / 7 WM. Your AB stays the same, and you get another attack unarmed (BAB 19 pre-epic), AND your damage increases from 1d6 using kamas to 1d10 using fists, AND you get to reap the benefit of Deflect Arrow...not to mention TWF, Ambi, etc become irrelevant (Flurry of Blows is a better AB progression anyway). MANY more feats pre-epic lets you spend a few on saves, maybe another skill focus...round it out. Whatever you like.

And don't be a conformist: Dex and AC are only good for people who can't kill shit with lightning speed. You can have First Blood; I'll take LAST BLOOD! :twisted:

Would be great....

Except you can't take WM with Unarmed Strike!

I are a n00b, yes I is...can't believe I svensked that advice.

No offense, mate; just taking it out for a spin to see if it sticks.

Anyway, the level progression I suggested may work better for you; still has the same AB and nets an additional attack...unless I screwed the pooch on my calculations there, also.

Would 12ftr/16WM/2rog work for a Wood Elf? The same stats and levelling progression?

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Screw that Exotic Proficiency, IKD is the way to go.

As for the Cleric/Barb question, a Barb17/Cleric12/Rogue1 ought to work just dandily. Also, you can replace Rogue with Bard at will.

What would my ablitity scores be at the start and end?

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

I are a n00b, yes I is...can't believe I svensked that advice.

No offense, mate; just taking it out for a spin to see if it sticks.

Anyway, the level progression I suggested may work better for you; still has the same AB and nets an additional attack...unless I screwed the pooch on my calculations there, also.

Mosh and I chatted over the finer points of the build and got it all figured out. Thanks everyone, though.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Yeah ill try and hunt down the build. It is going to take some time though since there are thousands of posts to go through.

Edit: Pew, I tried. I looked through Mark 2, 3, 4, and 5 for it and nothing. Mark 1 doesn't exist anymore so >.< Damn.

Well, thanks for trying, I appreciate it!
Also, my questions are still unanswered, does anyone have answers for them?

AcousticShredder wrote:

And again, If I was going for the 16Rogue/10Ranger/4Fighter, Should I take off two Rogue or Ranger levels to get 6 fighter for two sets of WS and EWS, and would I have enough feats to take two sets of WF,EWF,WS,EWS?

Also, Would a DEX-based build without epic dodge be a bad build? because, again, my original idea was for this to be a ranger, so would going the 25Ranger/4Fighter/1Rogue (or 23Ranger/6Fighter/1Rogue) route be a bad idea?

Sin4given wrote:

Would 12ftr/16WM/2rog work for a Wood Elf? The same stats and levelling progression?

Well, you get more feats and same ab with 20 ftr/7 wm/3 rog. More feats, +1d6 sneak and uncanny dodge.

Epic prowess is your friend.

The key point to any weapon master is that if you don't take Epic Prowess you've fuxed it. I know a certain chap who doesn't have it, and I'm pointing my finger at him and laughing.

Ulir wrote:

Sin4given wrote:

Would 12ftr/16WM/2rog work for a Wood Elf? The same stats and levelling progression?

Well, you get more feats and same ab with 20 ftr/7 wm/3 rog. More feats, +1d6 sneak and uncanny dodge.

Epic prowess is your friend.

I think you're forgetting the +2 AB with Weapon of Choice that the 16 WM will give over the 7.

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