AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

You would have to be a real masochist to want to try and level such a build.

Not as bad as leveling a shifter prebuff.

If you didn't cheese.

It works, it's been done, but it's normally done on a rogue base with fighter/SD, not WM.

Yeah, Fighter/Rogue/SD works out nicely. It's the WM that hurts things.

And about Dev Crit: Don't assume, he didn't mention it. You can do STR based without Dev Crit.

You can, but given it's literally the only STR based trick and any STR character is going to be picking up the previous feats in the tree anyways, there is absolutely zero reason to not take it if you're able.

TormakSaber wrote:

You can, but given it's literally the only STR based trick and any STR character is going to be picking up the previous feats in the tree anyways, there is absolutely zero reason to not take it if you're able.

This. Yes, I felt the need to quote this entire thing.

Some people don't like DevCrit, and it's possible to want other feats smashed into epic instead

/Devil's Advocate stance

Agreed, STR based more or less means Dev Crit, or at least Overwhelming Crit

Thoice wrote:

Making a tracker/bounty hunter/paladin like character using cleric and rogue classes.
What I want to know is using 13rogue and 17cleric, which class should I take at what level and what feats and skills should I pick up and which to avoid. Going for more of a fighter than a caster and intending on taking Epic Dodge.
Stats I'm planning on:
Str 10
Dex 16(+2elf)18=> 25
Con 12(-2elf)10
Wis 16 => 19
Int 12
Cha 8

Suggestions / halp go.

*Bumps selfishly since got new pagedz and everyone talks about str hipsters ;-;*

Thoice wrote:

Making a tracker/bounty hunter/paladin like character using cleric and rogue classes.
What I want to know is using 13rogue and 17cleric, which class should I take at what level and what feats and skills should I pick up and which to avoid. Going for more of a fighter than a caster and intending on taking Epic Dodge.
Stats I'm planning on:
Str 10
Dex 16(+2elf)18=> 25
Con 12(-2elf)10
Wis 16 => 19
Int 12
Cha 8

Suggestions / halp go.

*Bumps selfishly since got new pagedz and everyone talks about str hipsters ;-;*

Honestly it should be pretty straight forward. Just make sure you get all the feats you need for epic dodge preepic and you should be golden. When Cleric is in the mix it is more about spell choice than build choice to make it more mele like. You will also want to make sure you get weapon focus in the weapon you desire so line up the feats to make that happen. Make sure you take a few cleric early level so you can get heavy armor and shield. Think that is about it for the most part.

Don't end on 25 DEX. End on 26.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Don't end on 25 DEX. End on 26.

But that means sacrificing another feat for Greater Dex when I could get, say, the +2 armour feat. This is mostly why I asked, cos depending on what order I get the classes I think it affects how many epic feats I will end up with.

Ideally with a str/HiPS build wearing plate armor I would be able to pick up epic skill focus hide and ms, which would probably interfere with getting dev crit. I have tried some basic modelling for this setup but nothing really neat yet.

Edit: Btw I was honestly thinking I'd try a wood elf setup for it, most obvious drawback is the int; I'd probably need to start with 16 (resulting in 14) and accept having 8 con and low cha.

Thoice wrote:

Making a tracker/bounty hunter/paladin like character using cleric and rogue classes.
What I want to know is using 13rogue and 17cleric, which class should I take at what level and what feats and skills should I pick up and which to avoid. Going for more of a fighter than a caster and intending on taking Epic Dodge.
Stats I'm planning on:
Str 10
Dex 16(+2elf)18=> 25
Con 12(-2elf)10
Wis 16 => 19
Int 12
Cha 8

Suggestions / halp go.

Take groups of 4 levels in each class pre-epic to score your whopping 15 BAB, so 12 Ro/8 Cl or vice versa. You'll have no bonus feats in epic, so I would recommend Great Dex I (ending on 26 DEX), Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, and Epic Dodge. Don't get targeted by someone with KD...or Dev Crit...or Breach, Mord's...just don't get targeted. :twisted:

Make shure to take the first level as a rogue. You get more skillpoints that way.

At the cost of a BAB point. Up to you.

I'm looking for a good Bard/RDD/PM build. it has to have Dev, EMA, G Ruin, Hellball, and atleast 70 ac. Can anyone help??

freezey wrote:

I'm looking for a good Bard/RDD/PM build. it has to have Dev, EMA, G Ruin, Hellball, and atleast 70 ac. Can anyone help??

First off... that isn't possible to have that many epic spells. Second off... Tormak would stab me violently if I assisted you in this so... good luck!

Last edited by Naivatkal on Wed, May 25 2011, 22:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

So thinking of running a roguish weapon master of the rapier. Here's what I came up with. Please point out visible areas of improvement (I have one pre-epic feat free, possibly for Stealthy?)

Rogue(17), Fighter(6), Weapon Master(7), Human

STR: 11
DEX: 18 (26)
CON: 10
WIS: 10
INT: 13
CHA: 10

01: Rogue(1): Dodge, Mobility
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Finesse, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Weapon Focus: Rapier
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Rogue(9): Expertise
10: Fighter(1): Spring Attack
11: Fighter(2): Improved Critical: Rapier
12: Fighter(3): DEX+1, Whirlwind Attack, (DEX=20)
13: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Rapier
14: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Rapier
15: Weapon Master(2)
16: Weapon Master(3): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Weapon Master(4)
18: Weapon Master(5): Blind Fight
19: Weapon Master(6)
20: Weapon Master(7): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
21: Rogue(10): Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier, Defensive Roll
22: Rogue(11)
23: Rogue(12)
24: Fighter(5): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Rapier, (DEX=23)
25: Rogue(13): Improved Evasion
26: Rogue(14)
27: Rogue(15): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
28: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Epic Skill Focus: Hide, (DEX=25)
29: Fighter(6): Armor Skin
30: Rogue(17): Epic Dodge

Appraise 23(24), Disable Trap 33(34), Discipline 32(32), Hide 33(51), Intimidate 4(4), Move Silently 33(41), Open Lock 33(41), Tumble 31(39), UMD 30(30)

Here's some questions regarding the build:
1) Everyone says 'OMG 25 DEX?! YOU'RE CRAZY GET 26!!' Yeah, true, but equipment can make up a single point of DEX, or possibly spells/potions. So, not a huge deal as it does free up a feat as well, indeed? So what's more important a point of DEX or another feat?

2) That free pre-epic feat, should it go to Stealthy? I cannot figure anything else it should go into (other than Great Fort, but with a 14 base Fort Save that isn't going to matter much... I think?)

3) Appraise is sort of a dump, as I had 24 points left (so I evened the check to 24 and put the remaining 1 into Tumble). However, anything I may have missed? Set Trap is not something I am looking to get, also, unless 24 points (base 34 skill check) will be fine for it?

freezey wrote:

I'm looking for a good Bard/RDD/PM build. it has to have Dev, EMA, G Ruin, Hellball, and atleast 70 ac. Can anyone help??

I'm going to assume you are hopefully kidding.

If not... please don't D:

Look solids, Naivatkal. Usually the reasoning behind the feat to balance out dex is because everyone is obsessed with having even numbers. With one more dex you get +1 ab/ac which is good either way. If you wanted to get 2 ac instead of 1 of both than you can take armor skin. Generally the extra 1 ab/ac is a nice balancing middle ground for builds, generally you benefit from it more.

Now there are a few builds where you can't balance out your score to 26, and in that case it won't kill you as long as you have a good reason to not do it. For instance my smiter paladin will end with 25 charisma, but 26, because he benefits more from the 9 Epic smiting feats than 8. You get my point I hope.

Stealthy or Great fort works... though I glanced through the build and I didnt see blind fight. You want blind fight if you don't have it.

Set Trap can be very useful if done properly... and 34 skill check is fairly solid. Solid enough to use the decent traps, dunno about epic traps.

Edit: Ah, I see the blind fight. Scratch that comment then.

Forget stealthy. Upgrade to Improved Expertise since you don't need AB, you need CRITS and the extra survivability is sexy.

Improved Expertise is only good for tanking... and hes going to have epic dodge and already high ac. Impro Expertise is impractical in most other situations because being a WM or not loosing 10 ab isn't going to cut it. Also, hes not a fighter/wm so his ab isn't going to be that super great anyway.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Improved Expertise is only good for tanking... and hes going to have epic dodge and already high ac. Impro Expertise is impractical in most other situations because being a WM or not loosing 10 ab isn't going to cut it. Also, hes not a fighter/wm so his ab isn't going to be that super great anyway.

I suppose that's true, still I think you can never be too defencive!

You can.

If you take Improved Expertise you aren't killing your foes thus taking more incoming damage in the long run.

Delightful! Thanks for the input everyone.

With the Great DEX feat, though: Any thoughts on what to swap that with (if I decide to do so?) Maybe Epic Prowess for an extra AB?

No. You already get an extra ab and an extra ac with great dex. It would be silly to just get the one.

*facepalms* It's the little things that I forget hah.

Rogue(17), Fighter(6), Weapon Master(7), Human

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (26)
CON: 10
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 10

01: Rogue(1): Dodge, Mobility
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Finesse, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Weapon Focus: Rapier
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Rogue(9): Expertise
10: Fighter(1): Spring Attack
11: Fighter(2): Improved Critical: Rapier
12: Fighter(3): DEX+1, Whirlwind Attack, (DEX=21)
13: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Rapier
14: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Rapier
15: Weapon Master(2): Stealthy
16: Weapon Master(3): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Weapon Master(4)
18: Weapon Master(5): Blind Fight
19: Weapon Master(6)
20: Weapon Master(7): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Rogue(10): Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier, Defensive Roll
22: Rogue(11)
23: Rogue(12)
24: Fighter(5): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Rapier, (DEX=24)
25: Rogue(13): Improved Evasion
26: Rogue(14)
27: Rogue(15): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=25)
28: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Epic Dodge, (DEX=26)
29: Fighter(6): Armor Skin
30: Rogue(17): Epic Skill Focus: Hide

Disable Trap 33(37), Discipline 32(32), Hide 33(53), Intimidate 4(4), Move Silently 33(43), Open Lock 33(41), Search 25(27), Set Trap 32(42), Tumble 30(38), UMD 30(30)

Revised: Is a Search of 27 sufficient? Could lower UMD to 25 and get 32, but if 27 is fine I'll be happy.

Any proper Shadow dancer will have Hide/MS maxed so...

Edit: When I mean maxed I mean... 100+ solid hide/ms.

Search is more used for traps o.o
I don't even think you can use search to look for people/creatures lol

So I'm just wondering about the search DC for NPC type traps, cause I know PC traps are based on a DC varied by the Set Trap skill.
Like, for example, with a base check of 27 is it feasible to locate the epic traps in the Gauntlet?
That'd be something the char would hire himself out to do, ya'know.

As you can tell, I've never used traps here before haha

Bah. Fail Mav. Stupid Search/Listen/Spot skills all being semi the same. I wouldn't know off hand what the DC is to spot them, I imagine some rogue players can add their input.

Question:

A druid has a scimitar. It is not keen.

He keens it with a spell, (scroll etc)

if he transforms using dragonshape, the blade should merge with his shape correct?

Does the Keened critical range transfer into dragonshape?

cause in dragonshape it still says 'unarmed' weapon type.

Please assist. Thanks.

Dragonshape has no weapon. There's nothing for it to merge into.

Naivatkal wrote:

Search is more used for traps o.o
I don't even think you can use search to look for people/creatures lol

So I'm just wondering about the search DC for NPC type traps, cause I know PC traps are based on a DC varied by the Set Trap skill.
Like, for example, with a base check of 27 is it feasible to locate the epic traps in the Gauntlet?
That'd be something the char would hire himself out to do, ya'know.

As you can tell, I've never used traps here before haha

Shameless overnight bump on this, seeking Search skill knowledge

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Set_trap

Of course, the wiki helps. But depending on if you're elf or not(Keen Sense) and if you can be arsed to buy Lenses of Detections, I say take what you can afford or want for RP and don't particularly worry about it.

With Keen Sense and I wanna say 23 you should be fine, or even without Keen Sense if you can bother to go into Detect Mode and not be in battle. Search is good for representing things beyond actually seeing or hearing something in RP I know(like intuition, smell, or simply knack for looking for things), but I've found at least unless you're going rogue and have em to spare, it's nothing to fret too much over.

Quote:

Dragonshape has no weapon. There's nothing for it to merge into.

follow up question.
If the druid takes improv critical unarmed. and weapon focus unarrmed feats.

does this transfer into the dragonshape and becomes useful?

thanks.

Imp crit unarmed does work, according to I think the wiki and some forum posts I found on google when I searched the issue a while ago. It seems to apply to any forms without an explicit weapon, also (like animal forms, wyrmling, squid, whatever).

The weapon focuses don't, however. I couldn't tell you why, apparently they just don't.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Set_trap

Dark Immolation wrote:

Of course, the wiki helps. But depending on if you're elf or not(Keen Sense) and if you can be arsed to buy Lenses of Detections, I say take what you can afford or want for RP and don't particularly worry about it.

With Keen Sense and I wanna say 23 you should be fine, or even without Keen Sense if you can bother to go into Detect Mode and not be in battle. Search is good for representing things beyond actually seeing or hearing something in RP I know(like intuition, smell, or simply knack for looking for things), but I've found at least unless you're going rogue and have em to spare, it's nothing to fret too much over.

Also, wiki doesn't help if the DC for server traps is changed per the devs/designers ;D

But, you need Search to find traps right?
I just would like to have the char actually be useful for finding and disarming traps, and if he/she can't even spot them then that's pretty worthless lol

Well yeah, but I'm not going to tell you the DCs of the traps for areas. :wink:

Haha I know, I don't wan that ;p

Just wondering in general about it, was really hoping some trappers would way something :v
I wouldn't ask specifics, it's more that I want to know how major it is to max Search. But, then, I guess that might be just asking for a more vague answer on the DC haha.

Hm, I've been thinking: Is Discipline something rogue builds normally take? I mean, I have the option and can hit 32 with it, but is it something really to take? Trying to find a spot for Persuade, if I can.

Quick question: On an Epic DR barb that uses a two handed weapon (heavy flail, to be exact), I have the option of going one of three routes- 16 str/26 con, 18 str/24 con, or 20 str/22 con. Which is best? I'm assuming the last one, but I just want to ask around.

20/22 imo

Bzzzt both of you are wrong.

21/21 Mighty Rage.

Its worth it.

I've never played a barbarian before, so forgive my ignorance. The rages stack upon each other? Mighty and Terrifying will both add on top of the normal rage?

Yarp.

In essence Mighty Rage gives you Mighty Rage Bonii (modified on Amia) aswell as effectively three extra rages a day.

Badass. Thanks a bunch.

You can't say we're wrong for a choice we weren't given, you dork.

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

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