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Selmak
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 Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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Very_Svensk wrote: If you change it now, the old players will have an ENORMOUS advantage over the new ones with their history of hunting. There's nothing that can change that. But it doesn't make sense to continue to reward solo bosshunting just because that's the way things were done in the past.
Last edited by Selmak on Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:18 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Selmak wrote: There's nothing that can change that. But it doesn't make sense to uphold nonsense just because that's the way things were done in the past. It'll be Unfair. Very unfair. And i would be king. 
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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It's a whole lot more unfair to let it go on as-is.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Uh, no it's not. Far be it from me to defend this shitty system, but: No. It's not.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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It's not fair that one guy gets to hog the whole reward for what should be a team effort. You work together, you reap the rewards of working together. And the pitfalls, obviously.
With a 1% drop rate if you're solo fighting a boss you have about the same chance of getting loot if you were in a five man group who get a 5% drop rate. Except that funnily enough, there may actually be four players out there that night who just can't get the boss down without a fifth man. So they go home with nothing, not even getting a sniff of a loot roll.
Granted, over time four players will tend to solve their manpower problem and take down that boss, but there's still that one lone player rolling in there trying to get lucky on the slot machine. It's not a challenge any more for the lone amigo, but he's milking the system anyway, if he can get away with it.
If I had a character that could take down a boss single-handed, I would be tempted to take my chances, if such a chance existed. And that would be wrong.
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P Three
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 20:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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You realize you're going to have to retool the bosses if you do that, yes? How many people on the server can take down all the bosses alone? A good few, I imagine.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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Kudark
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Posted: Thu, Apr 28 2011, 23:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Selmak wrote: It's not fair that one guy gets to hog the whole reward for what should be a team effort. You work together, you reap the rewards of working together. And the pitfalls, obviously.
With a 1% drop rate if you're solo fighting a boss you have about the same chance of getting loot if you were in a five man group who get a 5% drop rate. Except that funnily enough, there may actually be four players out there that night who just can't get the boss down without a fifth man. So they go home with nothing, not even getting a sniff of a loot roll.
Granted, over time four players will tend to solve their manpower problem and take down that boss, but there's still that one lone player rolling in there trying to get lucky on the slot machine. It's not a challenge any more for the lone amigo, but he's milking the system anyway, if he can get away with it.
If I had a character that could take down a boss single-handed, I would be tempted to take my chances, if such a chance existed. And that would be wrong. Whatever, it's not wrong, that is simply your own opinion. If my character can take him down, what he had is mine now. Abusing that is wrong, but the occasional foray is fun, I love pushing Crow to his limits and beyond, it's exiting and gets my heart pumping. How else am I to get my cardio exercise? _________________ 
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Dwagin
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 1:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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AxlLeigh wrote: You realize you're going to have to retool the bosses if you do that, yes? How many people on the server can take down all the bosses alone? A good few, I imagine. No. Not a good few. I wouldn't even say a 'fair' amount. Especially the Domi, post heal pot change.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 1:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Any boss retooling is on the upward scale to increase the minimum difficulty to that which cannot be soloed. Its really really really easy to do. The reason I haven't done it? No way in fuck am I making boss' hunting a timezone issue.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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maglorine
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 2:06 AM |
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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I never really put much thought into timezone issues though I'd heard plenty of comment from others. I've been traveling the past two months and only able to play at what would be highly unusual times in my home timezone which is NY. Let me just say I've seen some real sparse presence on login. Like 5 players on B and I'm wandering around for two hours and not seeing any of them. On A meanwhile I hit the partyball several times and nuthin. Zip.
I see the point. I've been spoiled by nearly full servers all these years.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 8:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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To the suggestion of lowering the % or simply removing epic loot drop from bosses for soloers... I know this point was asked of people before so I will just point it out again, where is the IC reasoning for this?
_________________
Keelah Se'lai
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 8:30 AM |
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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That one's easy. So many people have stolen stuff from these bosses, there's just not enough stuff to set out for one in every twenty intruders.
It's like those little candies in the dish at the bank. They're good until someone eats them all.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 9:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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Essentially you are saying that the boss would go "Oh, they've killed me before so I will hide this before they come and kill me" when its a soloer, but when its a group they would go "Ah, this group cant possibly kill me so I'll toy with the idea of keeping this great item in my pocket"
When really it should just be the boss getting up and ready for battle, having more things to worry about than hiding a bit of precious as they will be fighting directly
_________________
Keelah Se'lai
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Murex
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 9:28 AM |
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Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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I mentioned this before, and I do feel it is the best option for this-
Have a shop that sells epic loot.
No more boss farming, and everyone will have what they want. Truthfully, I don't care if it's implimented or now, because I have a character who has lots of epic loot allready and it would essentially feel like I spent 1,000+ hours for nothing.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 11:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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drahgon wrote: Essentially you are saying that the boss would go "Oh, they've killed me before so I will hide this before they come and kill me" when its a soloer, but when its a group they would go "Ah, this group cant possibly kill me so I'll toy with the idea of keeping this great item in my pocket"
When really it should just be the boss getting up and ready for battle, having more things to worry about than hiding a bit of precious as they will be fighting directly No, the point I was trying to make is that the loot system is already not believable in that context as it is.. How is a wolf going to drop the warhammer that I found off it earlier? You have to consider loot as something that you just happen to see laying around the battlefield, a remnant of the adventurer before you that did not succeed in defending himself from the wolves or whatever. If you think of it like that, then the next time you visit the fire giant king, you'll realize that there's just a better chance that the bad guy didn't get the treasure from the adventurer before you. Murex wrote: I mentioned this before, and I do feel it is the best option for this-
Have a shop that sells epic loot.
No more boss farming, and everyone will have what they want. Truthfully, I don't care if it's implimented or now, because I have a character who has lots of epic loot allready and it would essentially feel like I spent 1,000+ hours for nothing. Then instead of bossrunners, you get merchant runners. The same people will corner the market and keep the prices outrageously high by hoarding what everyone wants. 
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Dramatic_Prince
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 11:54 AM |
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Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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DerkDerkistan wrote: The same people will corner the market and keep the prices outrageously high by hoarding what everyone wants. Sorry, your coin is no good here. Trade only, please. Actually, what I don't get is how can anyone hoard if an NPC shop is churning out unlimited gloves of discipline?
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ainjyll
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 13:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Any idea that floods the market is not a good one. IC reasons are nice, but sometimes a suspension of belief is required for the mechanics to work. No epic loot for solo runners is good, but then we just get teams of two running. That would only work if we switched epic bosses to spawning once per set time period, which kills all the chances for anyone who doesn't happen to be the first on the scene when the timer clicks.
I'm pretty convinced that there won't be a very easy solution to any of this.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Selmak
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 15:11 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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MoshingChris wrote: Any boss retooling is on the upward scale to increase the minimum difficulty to that which cannot be soloed. Its really really really easy to do. The reason I haven't done it? No way in [removed] am I making boss' hunting a timezone issue. Not what I suggested. I said it would be an idea to drop the loot chance to zero for solo people, not make the bosses any harder than they already are. That means if three or four people are the minimum requirement, it shouldn't be impossible to do, even taking timezones into account. I would happily set my alarm and get up early for someone in the interest of kicking some boss ass, if they asked nicely. Problem solved. Unless of course we're talking about people who don't want to ask nicely, in which case *raspberry noise*.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 15:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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And again, It'll fuck up the entire economy even more. And the old people will be king with their hordes of loot
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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Bob
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 15:47 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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Its a bad idea simply because, solo-ers just end up being boss running couples.
I also fail to see why is boss hunting an issue. For some reason, the fact that some guy who is insistent on getting his +5 holy avenger - and decides to farm for it by spending 2 hours a day grinding - seems to be affecting your RPing session?
I actually think its pretty clever that Amia allows such instead of being extremely anal about RP/policing. Its part of its appeal and lure. It gives an avenue/reason for people to log on to amia should they not feel like going into heavy RP. Its beneficial to the server really. Larger numbers translates to an incentive for others to join.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 15:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Mhm... Sometimes i want to delve into massive RP, Drama and ... Even giggle poke. And sometimes i just want to grind some cash for later RP use, or trade that Y Ring for X sword my character's been dying for.
So. Bosses can't be solved. How about those spawns? Make the flayer den a little realistic by adding thousands of slaves or something?
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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Vaul Tarrith
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 17:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum
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This thread has become my own personal trainwreck, complete with amputated limbs, pools of blood, and severed heads: I know I SHOULD look away...but I can't. I still have a hard time getting past the 'why does it matter' question. I think this statement sums it up: Bob wrote: I also fail to see why is boss hunting an issue. For some reason, the fact that some guy who is insistent on getting his +5 holy avenger - and decides to farm for it by spending 2 hours a day grinding - seems to be affecting your RPing session? Rarely have I wanted the ability to lock a thread...but I'd spend some DC's to get it right now.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 18:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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So you think that it'll get better if we just removed boss-hunting all together?
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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corypx
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 18:41 PM |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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I think he means dont touch it at all.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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Selmak
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 18:49 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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You've had your answers on this thread, I think you best leave it be.
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 20:32 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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after saving for 20 levels, and spanking it all in one place (no prizes on where) yesterday I have come to the conclusion that people do this because other epic loot/good loot is extortionatly overpriced. discuss.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 20:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It's "overpirced" because gold is worthless, and you won't let us fix the economy without screaming like ninnies.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 20:56 PM |
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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I will not scream like a ninny. I will only scream in the same manner as a follower of Loviatar as he/she's being whipped senseless.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 20:58 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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I...dare not get back into the economy debate >_> but there has been a positive step recently with some of the price reductions from the pc side. and general balancing.
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hendrack
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 21:07 PM |
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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The only thing boss runner groups change is the time they plow through spawns and thus annoying XP farming PCs less. That's about it. As long as there is a steady flow of incoming item's its irrelevant how hard you make them to obtain, after such long time. I have the feeling Selmak you are just annoyed people can solo.
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Selmak
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 21:32 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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I'm surprised that you all aren't more annoyed about it, to be honest.
As I said before, if the content is designed for a group, then a group should be a requirement. How big of a group depends on the boss. If you're not willing to accept that I'm looking at it purely from a designer's perspective, well there's not much I can do about that.
What do other multiplayer games do with their boss content? They design it around a group, and they make sure it is very hard to do otherwise. Sometimes even with a group it is very hard unless you have practised or had a similar fight.
I'm not saying that we should just go ahead and copy that approach, but at the very least think about what boss content is supposed to be about. Otherwise, you'd be better off calling them big honking slot machines.
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Dwagin
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 21:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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TormakSaber wrote: It's "overpirced" because gold is worthless, and you won't let us fix the economy without screaming like ninnies. Why let? Just do 
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 21:48 PM |
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Because "doing" is actually only slightly less complicated than "letting".
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Feonir
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 21:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.
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I can personally attest that while the old-gen content was designed for groups it was designed for ~RP~ groups, people who didnt use 1 level of a class to tumble dump, or RDD's or PM's or Sorc/Monk/Blackguards.
The general concencus was not to punish the players who just wanted to do new things. Bosses included, sure the fire king can be nasty but he could of also been FAR nastier or shit we could of even just left the duregar in.
_________________  "I'm going to spend all my money on ale and whores." "Okay roll for whores." "That's 1d4 whores right?"
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Dwagin
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 22:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Yossarin wrote: Because "doing" is actually only slightly less complicated than "letting". Blame the Aurora Borealis.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Kudark
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 22:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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TormakSaber wrote: It's "overpriced" because gold is worthless, and you won't let us fix the economy without screaming like ninnies. I'm with Dwagin, just do it, the screaming only lasts until you turn up your stereo. _________________
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Dwagin
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 22:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Oh, Yoss is -completely- right. Hitting it just right is hard, and will take a lot of effort.
Just like the droves of wizards which ran and quit when GS and bigby were nerfed, and dev crit..
I drank too much tea and am snarky today.
>.>
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 23:05 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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Dwagin wrote: Just like the droves of wizards which ran and quit when GS and bigby were nerfed, and dev crit.. Wait, really? o.o But on topic of the off topic topic, I'm intrigued by the proposal to balance the market.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Selmak
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 23:07 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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You know maybe after all the economy discussions people have come around and are willing to see the merits of economic change. Maybe too they will agree that it's time for the Liberation of Monetary Assets Organisation to sort things out. 
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 23:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Democrat! 
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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corypx
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Posted: Fri, Apr 29 2011, 23:20 PM |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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I really dont care if people boss farm alot of people farm stuff, epic loot,gold and now job system stuff.
more people want job system stuff now, as DMs request it for some IC requests and actions, befor the job system gold was used to take the place of job system mats so gold was taken from the system more and at a much higher price.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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Kudark
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 0:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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LMAO at Selmak
_________________
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 0:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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Kudark wrote: LMAO at Selmak  And on topic, I reiterate that fixing the economy is a wonderful idea. Taking it out of the hands of a few who exploit certain factors is a good idea.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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ainjyll
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 1:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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You say that now. If the proper fix to the economy was implemented, we (the DM's) would have to face down so much nerdrage is would blind lesser mortals than ourselves.  _________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Selmak
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 1:05 AM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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I volunteer to be a human shield then.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 3:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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I say it now and I'll say it then. I'm not a hoarder so it doesn't hurt me at all.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Vaul Tarrith
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 3:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum
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I always love market and 'economy' debates pertaining to online games. There are exactly THREE factors affecting any market in any online game:
1) Greed of the playerbase
2) More greed of the playerbase
3) Supply and demand
If the Devs decide to cut the gold drops from all creatures in half, people selling 00bah l3wtz will have to:
1) Drop the price
2) Sit on aforementioned l3wtz
You can boss-farm all you like. If players can't afford what you're selling, you'll have Cool Toys and No Cash. If YOU, as a player, skimp and scrape and save to pay the asking price...shame on you. I don't understand this debate either. Cut the gold drops, I say. It only hurts for a little while...then it becomes 'normal'.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 3:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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So incorrect, but I can't be assed to explain why for the hundredth time. Please use the search function.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Vaul Tarrith
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 3:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum
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Sweet! I'm 2 for 2 tonight!
I've missed you, Tormak...
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Athyonn Ursidae
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Posted: Sat, Apr 30 2011, 6:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Location: UK
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*reads through every last page of dialogue here, something that has been repeated time and time again and sighs*
Here is my thought on a solution...
Have a new area made, something that is impossibly difficult. Somewhere you can only reach if you have a full party of sensible individuals, something that challenges all the classes with epic traps and the like, spells and what have you.
Then at the very end of said area there is a NPC merchant who has -random- items from the epic lootbin, these are all sold at a price comparable to current market values and not the base cost of said item.
Removes the boss running, removes inflated economy, adds an additional gold sink.
Yes you will get more gold farming but that at least is better than boss farming.
Just a thought, I dont really expect anyone to take it seriously, but its what I have done elsewhere and its worked.
_________________ Siggy by Maryn
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