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Dark Immolation
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 Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 6:55 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I'm creating this thread as a general discussion about magic as it works and how we'd like it to work in our game. This is not to be a thread of flaming "X are too strong" or "Y is nerfed too much", so if you're thinking that's what it's about, you may as well click a new topic. If that is what it becomes, I will gladly ask for this to be locked. I'm putting the little, possibly naive, faith I have in my fellow Amians as a collective whole to use discretion in what is contributed. This is meant to be a serious dialogue about what role it plays mechanically and the many issues that arise when balancing it between a gameworld for people's enjoyment, server lore integrity, and other such things. Firstly, I'd like to post a series of questions, asked not so much for a specific answer, but again, to move spark discussion on the subject. 1. What is considered "magic" from a mechanical standpoint in our gameworld? Is there a clear divide between those things and what would be considered "mundane"? Need there be such a divide or might an imagined difference in the two be hindering the server in one way or another?
2. Is there an inherent advantage to magic that must be checked, balanced, or otherwise controlled for the mutual enjoyment of the playerbase? Is any such balance statically achievable and what is the litmus to know when this has been reached? Is this balance measured mostly upon combat situations(PvP), success vs Mobs(PvE), success in items(gold/loot), niches able to be filled by the class, or some funky combination of the choices?
3. Does diversity of viable spells translate to diversity of casters(more spells easier to use = more spells used?)? [By caster, I mean classes that have spellslots or spells x day]. Does diversity of of casters and classes in general translate to more mutual enjoyment of the gameworld? If so, have we a responsibility to make non-viable spells viable, and then balance afterwards, or attempt to balance by leaving certain spells purposefully non-viable? What is the feasibility of both of these options? Does it vary by spell/class/etc?
4. With the assumption that Amia is as often said "a high-magic server", why is the perceived divide between magical and mundane classes so large, in terms of both power and versatility? Is this a carry-over from NWN proper and the actual difference smaller than we might realize? What might be a reason other classes, that are considered non-magical, don't have abilities comparable to "magic"? Or might they already? Where does UMD stand in all of this? A balancer, a buffer against magical monopoly, or some sort of wildcard? I have my own answers for each of my questions, but I'd like to see those of my fellow playerbase, DM's and Devs as well. After all, I am thoroughly making this as an attempt to understand the playerbases(devs and such included) shared opinions, differences in ideas and methods, and just generally to discuss. _________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Glyph
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 10:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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1. don't limit your views on magic. =) most wizards would think of the magic as the weave, but most clerics would see it as divine powers, as would druids unless they worship elementals, and bards?! =) magic is the way monks punch through bricks, heck i'll link a sholin video if you like, bare palms, 12 bricks, snap. thats magic. (I realise that was not entirely game related but yea.)
2. balance is not my strong point, but neither are melee builds will saves. all about tactics and luck. frankly I believe the server is fairly well balanced as is though i'm sure others who have done the math will disagree on certain points.
3. i've re-writen this twice and I still don't get this part. I do kind of get the viability thing though and I think its been noted that summon 9 and gate are few and far between. can't actually think of any more off the top of my head.
4. umd is was and always will be rouges fluking it, is how i've always seen the lore behind that, spells that require a material focus that they never really realised themselves was important to the 'casting' of the spell. I would agree its a wildcard, it allows a character to free up the rp, disguise as another class even.
as for high magic? uh, do not agree. nwn maybe but as far as dnd in general goes wizards can do -nothing- comparing =) fly is a level 3 spell you know. maybe my idea of high magic is wrong idk.
as for is there a divide, is there? spellswords, mages and melee builds all have their own bonuses and weaknesses, and all of them would work well with eachother.
wondering where this thread will go so i'll end it there for now =) and if that made zero sense fallback on the start of question 1 =D
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 10:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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One line summary, answering the following question:
What is the point of this topic?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dramatic_Prince
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 10:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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Dark Immolation wrote: 1. What is considered "magic" from a mechanical standpoint in our gameworld? Mechanical standpoint? Everything is magical. From the shampoo you use in the bathhouse to the ale you drink in the pub, to the cookie you buy from bakery. Everyone of these things gives you a a mechanical stat buff. Dark Immolation wrote: 2. Is this balance measured mostly upon combat situations(PvP), success vs Mobs(PvE), success in items(gold/loot), niches able to be filled by the class, or some funky combination of the choices? I am led to believe it is decided upon by a team of "more cleverer people". How they operate is really none of your business. Dark Immolation wrote: 3. Does diversity of viable spells translate to diversity of casters(more spells easier to use = more spells used?)? [By caster, I mean classes that have spellslots or spells x day]. Does diversity of of casters and classes in general translate to more mutual enjoyment of the gameworld? If so, have we a responsibility to make non-viable spells viable, and then balance afterwards, or attempt to balance by leaving certain spells purposefully non-viable? What is the feasibility of both of these options? Does it vary by spell/class/etc? Regardless of changes, people will always go for the most effective spells. I.E. Mords, Bigby's, IGMS. If we scroll through the list of spells, we will find that a good percentage of spells are useless in the Amian setting. That means alot of spells to fix if you want to make everything useful, but does not mean we should not discuss about it. BoT is a very naughty thing and if you ask me, should only be available to transmutation specialists. Dark Immolation wrote: 4. With the assumption that Amia is as often said "a high-magic server", why is the perceived divide between magical and mundane classes so large, in terms of both power and versatility? It's not a false perception. It simply is. Both for PvE and PvP a caster is simply that much superior to say, your pure Fighter, if such a thing even exists. We've been here long enough to know what the "win" buttons are in an encounter. _________________ 
Prescia the Pristine Voice
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Pony
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 11:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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Dark Immolation wrote: 4. With the assumption that Amia is as often said "a high-magic server", why is the perceived divide between magical and mundane classes so large, in terms of both power and versatility? Is this a carry-over from NWN proper and the actual difference smaller than we might realize? What might be a reason other classes, that are considered non-magical, don't have abilities comparable to "magic"? Or might they already? Where does UMD stand in all of this? A balancer, a buffer against magical monopoly, or some sort of wildcard?[/list] Stepping a bit outside the more detailed question: For me high magic on amia is composed of a few aspects, and more atmospherically than by game mechanics. - Mages are powerful, can quickly attain epic spells making them numerous (easy leveling), wield powerful spells (Wail) and can summon powerful allies (EMD). (Group PvP empowers them more.) - Magic is ever present. Low boni are also not as much reflected by special metals or quality, but more by magic, at least how I perceived it. (Instead of the +3Axe being called (Admatine Dwarvenforged) it is an enchanted blade. - Magical artifacts are not really rare. Ioun Stones for one. Scrolls, wands and special items make magic easily used by anyone. Amia down from magic steroids would be more like this for me: - Scrolls are harder to come by, making it more difficult for mages to learn spells and not making almost anyone being able to cast through such items that make it possible. - Magic is harder to come by, not finding gems being able to cast spell resistance or earthquake in 4th tier loot, not being able to buy tier nine scrolls in high quantity (or at all if not made by a mage), and hence having other classes be able to use/emulate magic to a lower degree. - Using metals and quality on equipment, instead of magic, leaving that for more epic artifacts. (Adamantine and Mithral grants armor boni or weapon boni, Cold Iron Weapons for boni against outsiders, silver against shapeshifters). (Brog has +3 so make the +3 weapons not called +3, but normal weapons that are dwarven forged and hence more powerful. +2 Could be elven forged. +1 Masterforged.) (The dragon armors are already right on the spot.) In other words, rip the "magic" from those weapons and give a more mundane explanation. Armor with improved damage reduction against bludgeioning being fluted, hence being able to spread out the impact better.) Note: Balance issues aside of course. I like the less magical world more as it makes magic special and cool, but that is not point of the topic either.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 12:02 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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TormakSaber wrote: One line summary, answering the following question:
What is the point of this topic? -The first and last thing I stated in this thread's opening post: to discuss.- Quote: I'm creating this thread as a general discussion about magic as it works and how we'd like it to work in our game...
After all, I am thoroughly making this as an attempt to understand the playerbases(devs and such included) shared opinions, differences in ideas and methods, and just generally to discuss. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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hendrack
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 16:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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"It's magic" is still the best explanation for everything, both IC and OOC. I'll stick with that. 
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Dwagin
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 17:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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1. Things which are not magic are mundane. Normal humans with no arcane class/spell ability. A plain fighter would be mundane. Give him a magic sword...well.. there you go, no longer mundane. Anything that is magical in any fashion or extraplanar/elemental related/dragon related is NOT mundane.
2. Generally balance is sought by the team for various and encompassing reasons stated above: PvM, PvP, and Boss hunting viability, class skills/abilities etc. It is impossible to be perfectly balanced unless everyone is exactly the same. That is the difference between 'perfection' and 'close enough'.
3. From a flavor enjoyment factor, being able to use a spell that is with your specialists school to effectively do their 'job' is important to the enjoyment of the character in my opinion. Some of diversity exists in the spells as it stands for Arcanists, however, certain variables throws it off balance. (Mob HP pools, Permafreedom, Mindblank pots, evasion, UMD). More spells for the under-supported schools are always bonus.
There is no easy way to 'fix' this, without taking a hard look at several of the underlying causes and determining their effects and what changes will cause. Being on both sides of the coin., I think there needs to be some adjustment of specific mechanics in a positive and negative manner. Some do not allow enough of a chance to defend against, others do not have much use in the server with the dynamics how they are, and some are just too good.
4. 'High magic' usually refers to the game world/setting. Supernatural/Spellike abilities = not mundane. Its more than just a few things coming together to cause issue between 'balance of power'. UMD does have a place. It only taking 2 levels of rogue for 30 points into UMD and evasion annoys me though. Just like Mind blank potions and perma freedom annoys me due to it marginalizing a lot of versatility, just like top tier Bigbys and Timestop annoys me for having no realistically attainable foils. There's marginalizing of spells/abilities out there, but there's also balance concerns from certain spells too. Its a complex issue. There's a few things which need addressed, some of which are already in discussion.
I'd also like you to make sure you compare apples to apples. You're broadly generalizing with too wide of strokes here, I feel. There's a vast difference than say a regular level 30 wizard focused on Spellcraft/Lore/Spell proficiencies, and a Multiclass/tankbuild mage with capped fort saves. Also what are they facing? A multiclass paladin/BG or joe blow fighter/wm/rog build?
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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ZoltanTheRed
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Posted: Tue, Mar 29 2011, 22:03 PM |
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DM
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: USA
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TormakSaber wrote: One line summary, answering the following question:
What is the point of this topic? General discussion.
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Glyph
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Posted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 14:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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considering even melee builds chug down potions like its some gooood *** I think its safe to say about the most mundane thing about amia is the commoner npc's that hang around towns. as for spells I gotta agree wth prescia about igms and such, because if you try alot of combinations you'll find ice and fire type spells will epically fail against certain types of things, spell resistance of generally fort or will saves against another, and your left with few options for a 'kill that thing' button. GR being one of the more deadly. meteor would be good if it wern't abysmal at actually hitting your target, druids seam to get the better version of that (bombardment) this is more of an nwn in general problem however not the server, most of the time you'll be running to different challenges, having to switch your spells, the moment you have a full party summons become useless unless you enter into pvp and wished you didn't swap them out for a stack of fireballs or something. the great thing about magic is the variety and the infinate amount of ways you can fail to have the right spell prepared  as I said before I think amia is doing pretty well in that respect. imho if your struggling with a situation its because you didn't pick the right spells not that there is a balance issue, even level 30's can roll a 1. if I had to pick something to suggest it would be the book of transmutation spell mods, I wouldn't want to see every spell turned into a generic "cone of 'element'" or 'delayed 'elemental' blast' or something but the variety that things like this bring spices up the gameplay and prevents people from building specifically to combat, the above afformentioned abundance of fire/ice in the progression. I should note I mentioned igms for its elemental lackingness not the evil stacking thing that...I should probably not explain that one...
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 22:56 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Some interesting points out there. I guess I'll put up my thoughts. And for clarification, they were posed with a little bias to see if I could get some new thoughts out there. In other words, asking obvious questions that perhaps by the way they get answered show not so obvious things. 1. Mechanics are mechanics, scripts are scripts. This one is rather obvious, and more of a factual question probably, but I've amazingly met a few folk that aren't aware of it. The game doesn't care the difference between you casting a spell that does bludgeoning damage or whether it's a giant using "Hurl Rocks" ability. Only the effect, or aftermath as you might say, is the real difference.
Now while that's quite obvious, it shows something else: It would appear that there's a great skew effects that are done in a "mundane" way in our gameworld and effects had by magic. Which is not in itself something wrong or amiss, magic is just naturally more versatile because you can always just say "It's magic". But have we ever thought to add mundane effects to the gameworld on the basis that they could just be done anyway? Yes we give class widgets and I realize scriptx/balancex costs, but a simpler approach might do wonders.
I.E. A mage/caster/etc by default will get things that allow them to pummel an area with a huge stone, or hold a target in place, or otherwise incapacitate. But ideally, ICly, there are things that anyone with enough X could do through a mundane way. For the two examples, throwing a boulder or grappling a target are things any meatshield with 4 int could do. Yet they cannot.
It's just something to get us thinking. Magic is generally more powerful/versatile than what something non-magical could do in our setting. But it might be possible it is made even more powerful/versatile by a lack of IC representations on the mundane side. Just look at Complete Warrior and such.
2. In a short word, and Tormak might have a heart attack with me saying this, but absolutely yes. As I have stated and is clearly observable, magic is all-around a more powerful, versatile, and fungible force in the gameworld. It may take a 10000 men with swords(a veritable army) to change the course of history in one country. You only need a handful of mages, or hell even 1 really powerful one and enough time, to change the course of Reality in the world.
What this translates to IC is that you have a subset of PC's that are inherently more capable of dealing damage, solving problems, and deciding the outcome of fights. In a "real" view of the gameworld(one in which the PC's arose merely out of circumstance, vs being concocted in our heads and transposed upon the setting), the balance is the natural unbalance. That is to say, if there are 50 mages against you and 4 cavaliers by your side, tough cookies. But for the sake of the gameworld, and not just having one-class-to-rule-them-all, yes, it must certainly be controlled.
Now how do we know when we have gotten there? What is the "balance" we are looking for? I was actually hoping someone more versed in this had a concrete answer, but I don't think there is one. And that's not a bad thing at all. It's more or less trial and error, touch and go, feeling and intuition. It's a lot easier to deal with a dynamic system like that. But we should also be aware, like most of us already are I believe, that our "balance" is not a static thing.
3. Hold onto your pacemakers again: I have no freaking idea. I'd like to think so, though. Logic would hold that if you have 3 identical cars in 3 different colors, people will choose based upon which color they find more appealing(personal taste), so long as the three cars are for the most part equally viable(same mileage, reliability, useful life).
That's not to somehow say that if every school of magic, or every spell on the server had the same amount of oomph(however we qualify that) that there wouldn't be some that are just more popular. Evocation and Necromancy may stay top dogs simply because they may be more interesting to some/most on an IC level, on an OoC level, or what have you. But I do believe it would mad for more diverse group, and possibly more player enjoyment.
Now while we can all beat out chests and call ourselves pro-RPers, people are just people. Now while it may sadden me to hear things like "Hey, I have an awesome idea for an Abjurationist...but meh, I'm pretty much setting myself up to just be sucky, I guess I can make him into an Evoker", I can't really wrinkle my brow at them. People play this game for enjoyment. And for some that means being able to succeed in things outside of RP alone.
Now do we owe anything to the spells that are lackluster? No. To the players? Maybe yes, maybe no. We are an RP server after all, but isn't the purpose of our RP to create enjoyment? There's no real way to tell what is wanted by a playerbase our size except by votes by foot, so to speak. Who knows how many people really wanted to play a Shifter before the shifter fix went in? And I mean pureshifter. Yeah, maybe some for completely RP reasons, but there were certainly some that were deterred by the at least perceived notion that they could not "succeed" on the server without dumping Monk. Maybe we say "well screw those guys, they should want to be X because of RP alone." Or maybe we sympathize.
4. For what must be a third time: magic is in provable forms, more X than other things. No there are perks and drawbacks to both, the main drawback to magic being that it usually has a set amount of uses and the main perk of mundane that you can do them ad nasuem in a lot of cases.
But now is this divide as big as it is often said to be? I say it is a strong possibility. As Amia is mid-high-magic in my mind, I say it actually works to close the gap. My definition of high magic is the amount of magic readily available, even to non-magical classes.
A great example: There is nothing particularly amazing or out of place about some lv 29fighter/1rogue having several lv 9 scrolls, naturally magical gear all of the highest tier that one could get through magic, and more than a few items that cast mid-high-level spells themselves. Non-magical classes are less at the mercy of magical ones than they think they are because of what's available. It is mainly in the case where things that are truly irresistible are used disproportionately by casters that the concept of "mages don't need help" comes into play. It is implied that they already have broken stuff to use(which they may), and that they should be using that. Or at least they are expected to. In which case are they completely at fault when they choose the reliable options over ones that clearly aren't? So again, just some food for thought. I know I and a few others have the reputation for being on a certain side of a good deal of debates about magic, but its not out of blind advocacy or anything. Perhaps a mere difference in opinion, which is something that is good for both sides of any discussion if one wants to keep fresh ideas about. After all, as a very experienced member of the server said(or to the effect of), just because you disagree with with me, it doesn't necessarily mean one of us doesn't know what we're talking about. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 22:22 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Another question I pose:
Would developing and allowing certain PnP melee maneuvers even the divide between magical and non magical classes? If so, what does that narrowing of the divide create for us as a server; more diverse playerbase, more enjoyment, higher quality gameplay?
My thoughts:
I think there's a good chance it would be beneficial to the server on many levels. The main reason I asked "what defines "magic" on a mechanical level" is because I feel a lot of the stuff we have scripted reflects magic or psuedo-magical things(BG abilities, monk abilities, (old) assassin abilities), yet we neglect the more mundane things that have the potential to save the day for Ol' sword n' board Joe. I'll give an example.
A long while back, a grappling widget was suggested. The details of how exactly it would work never gotten to, but still, the idea put out there. I cannot remember exactly who, nor does it matter because it's more reflective of our server outlook as a whole, mentioned something along the lines of "Oh, it's a cool idea. But it'd be overpowered, because you could hold someone while someone else ganked them." Which seemed really odd. A mage is capable of holding someone in place while they are "ganked" by friends in a multitude of ways. Why then would it be considered OP, when it's something that anyone could legitimately do IC, with a good deal of success if they were a non-caster, no less? Of course it has a limited range, but such is the drawback of magic vs mundane.
It's not our fault, NWN was created as it was, but I believe mundane PC's are measurably stifled by not having a way to do these things. And we have the ability to add those things as well. The gap in PnP between caster and non-caster is significant, so it's very likely that that will always translate to a game based off of it in some form or another. However, that gap is likely exacerbated by the fact that non-casters don't have access to the few tricks they had in PnP, like Bashing, Grappling, and Feint.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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MaliciousSwine
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 8:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: California, USA
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You have acknowledged that NWN =/= Pnp in your posts but are suggesting that we could incorporate some pnp maneuvers to assist non-magic characters make their way in a pvp situation rather than just being destroyed by casters; the problem is that these abilities in Pnp could be walked through with words and sorted out in a round-by-round manner, and that isn't possible with all of them in NWN.
_________________
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 15:29 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Have you ever tried grappling someone in the middle of PvP? It's very awkward. Especially because even if you do manage to get out "*attempts a grapple*" in combat, that person and pretty much everything around you has to stop for you to even access dice rolls. Again, very hard in a battle, especially when there's more than one person in involved.
We've incorporated plenty of our homebrew and icing on the cake, but we kinda neglected the basic things that also factor in, I believe. Not all, mind you, a few of them came across into NWN (Disarm, KD[~Trip]).
So again, valid point, but it is nigh impossible to initiate maneuvers in PvP, (or completely impossible in PvM). And I think we should seriously take into fact that casters being the only ones that can "grapple" an opponent, stun them,or cause effects that could also be created in a mundane way is a factor in why we see such difference between class types.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 22:06 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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What I mean, now that I've had a chance to streamline it in my mind is this:
Instead of bringing casters down as a usual method, why not bring non-casters up? Again, we already do it slightly with things like monk techniques, assassin abilities and barbarian rage, but we neglect the simple things that make a big difference in the end.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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billytheid
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Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 6:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Location: Terra Australis
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So so true... never managed to play a mage well simply because it's never suited my RPing so I've pretty much always had 'mundane' PCs (my cleric sucked). And I can tell you it's a horrid pain in the backside to have a mage PC say; 'Sneaking are we?', turn into a Dragon and roll a Grapple check while sniggering in a decidedly OOC manner.
What I'm saying is that if a mage has the entire range of counter moves at their disposal they are functionally 'unbeatable'. Sure you can get a Monk resistant to just about alll magic but stopping time will still bugger him.
Why not add xp costs to the use of spells? It's one of the limiting factors from PnP and would add a greater degree of reverance to really dangerous spells that are usually thrown around like wet sand. Sure it costs gold to cast Timestop...oh no! Not gold! But, if it cost you half a level to cast Timestop then it would stop being the usual start of any 'x vs. mage' encounter and become a 'wow... he actually stopped time to save us'.
_________________
Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 7:18 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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You were along my point until you got to the adding XP cost to spells thing, billy.
1) Problems with de-leveling certain classes and free de-leveling in general
2) Absolutely no reason to add XP penalty to spells that don't have them in PnP
3) The point of this was so say up meleers rather than nerf casters
Of course, I'm not saying in all cases, just that the general slant of the server is to go the opposite, when we really are neglecting normal things for no good reason.
We give scripted feats widgets to plenty of things except the purely mundane, and then complain that our casters have such an edge on them. As well, use that are a main reason to balance them. In my opinion, there should be widgets available to every character, heavily geared towards meleers especially fighters. They shouldnt be exclusive to them, however, as again, they would be things any character could ICly do, but naturally some would be better at.
Grapple, Pin, Shield Bash, Feint, things like that.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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billytheid
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Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 9:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Location: Terra Australis
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The problem is making them in anyway different to Knockdown, Parry, Disarm, Called Shot and the like. Perhaps a called shot for the head that adds a temporary Int and/or Wis drain? A Disarm that causes a targets next action to fail(be it spell casting, item use, HIPS, attack roll, whatever OR disarms). These are feats I would take in a heartbeat with a fighter/wm/rogue type build(cough).
I mean, you would expect that someone exceptionally skilled with a melee or ranged weapon could target their enemy in such a way as to produce a specific effect. A pommel strike to the nape of the neck could easily cause muscles to seize up(paralyze) for example and is a valid alternative to Knockdown. The issue with adding mundane advantages is the 'that's not physicall possible' argument is valid; not so for 'that's magic'.
_________________
Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 18:29 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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What I'm saying is trying to grapple a target is something that any character possess the ability to do IC, but naturally something that meleers and soldiers(Fighters) would excel at more than non-meleers. Feint is something that anyone could pick up to do, but someone who makes his living in close combat would have an edge on. The thing here is not to make something that only Fighters get, only other meleers get. It's including a few basic fighting maneuvers from PvP that again, all characters have the ability to attempt, but by their virtue the classes that we constantly gripe have no edge would be better at. Class specificity is what gotten us into this odd situation in first place. I realize of course the time and balancing that must come into place when making things like this, but in the long run, I think it will lead to a more stable balance in the end. Again, build meleers up with with simple "mundane" things and suddenly, magic's major edge becomes range, rather than somehow it's the only thing that can hold someone in place or trick people in the midst of combat. billytheid wrote: The issue with adding mundane advantages is the 'that's not physicall possible' argument is valid; not so for 'that's magic'. I'd have to disagree, it is not a valid argument. This is a game. Plenty of other physical things that don't always make sense. Either way, any of the moves I just named could be found in books like the Codex Wallerstein or any such book on fighting from the middle ages. They're quite physically possible in the first place. Not that that should matter in the first place, because it's a game dealing with super-humans as they near the upper levels anyway. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 21:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The maneuvers in 3.5 are also balanced around 3.5 mechanics, not things like stat boosts stacking, +30 skill items stacking, and the idea that you have a DM constantly watching.
I sundered your wonderforged. Sucks to be you.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 22:05 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Well that's what we have brilliant Devs and balance team guys for. I'm not saying add the thing across the board exactly as they are, gods no. But riff off of the maneuvers and see if there's any way we can fit them into our server. Sundering is something better left to stat decreases, rather than actually destroying items. Maybe a permanent decrease in Ab, AC, or damage until rest(giving a person time to "fix" the object). But that is personally something I'm not too keen on implementing, as if we were to be completely fair about it, we'd have to incorporate materials on most equipment. No reason a WF or adamantine dagger should be broken as easily as a copper one. But things like grapple are a bit more straightforward and give a good shift in the dynamics between caster and non. Up until now, a meleer and a caster standing nose to nose, all a meleer can hope to do is KD spam(which doesn't always work given how easy it is to stack like you said). When ICly, any -8 int soldier could figure out "Hey, if I hold onto this guy, he can't light me on fire". And it wouldn't require you to overcome the target's "discipline in battle" which is so easy to mythal. All you have to do is be stronger than them and keep them from moving around too much. And of course be able to get a hold of them in the first place. And if you have a friend there that is free to smack at them while you hold onto them, then good for you! The caster could have probably done the same thing with a friend and Bigby's. Or even with his own summon! Grappling alone, as simple as it is, actually brings saying of "strength in numbers" back to Amia. Rather than one caster being able to stand in the face of N+1 herculean brutes so long as he's dumped enough of a certain skill. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 10:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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I'd prefer grapple to be gone completely or handled mechanically. I think the last suggestion I had was that the grappler, on winning, was cutscene paralysed and the grapplee was cutscene immobilised and took 100% arcane failure. Rolls once per round, effect broken if and when grapplee wins.
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billytheid
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 14:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Location: Terra Australis
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Uberuce wrote: I'd prefer grapple to be gone completely or handled mechanically. I think the last suggestion I had was that the grappler, on winning, was cutscene paralysed and the grapplee was cutscene immobilised and took 100% arcane failure. Rolls once per round, effect broken if and when grapplee wins. Good idea
_________________
Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 15:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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What I'd really love is if it reduced the effectiveness of the graplee's weapons depending on how small and handy they are; daggers and shortswords at one end of the scale, greataxes and dire maces at the other. That's a bit of a stretch, I imagine.
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 16:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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so, your suggesting fighters get the equivilent of death attack ?? wheres your logic behind that? die roll grapple.
ed: double 20 weapon shatter >=P but, I thought 'we don't break items here' ?
I don't disagree with some sort of mechanical grapple, but i've always personally prefered dice rolls.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 17:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Not just fighters: everyone.
Can you really not see the difference between this and Death Attack? Hint: consider what happens to an Assassin when he or she performs one.
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 17:37 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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shifters/polymorphed people can't use widgets, and having seen bobo wrestle a dragon with dice I can't see that working the same after. I guess its not exactly death attack but on hit paralisis is the point I was getting at. also still spell makes 100% spell fail a bit iffy. thus dice rolls.
ed: I think there are too many variables
ed: saying that, I forget how the dragon rolled the dice >_> that...doesn't make sense xD
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billytheid
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 17:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Location: Terra Australis
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and then there's Epic Dodge...
_________________
Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 19:21 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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And there is also something called multiple attacks per round...
If the grapple thing was a widget, then it really wouldn't come into play, and we'd likely just make it override ED, but if we ever use the feat thingies or player tools, we could respect it.
But Moo's on the right track. Though I'd dare say that maybe ever large weapons should get almost no damage while in grapple. But small weapons and even unarmed much fuller damage.
The question would be what would the opposing rolls made each round be. I'm partial to both Dex and Str rolls being made. Dex because you could wriggle out of it and Str because you may be able to overpower them.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 19:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Can't we just say 'No more grapple ever again', and the problem would be solved? Do we really need grapple on amia? It seems like to big of a hazzle
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 19:29 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Svensk... did you even read my reasoning why I'm suggesting this as one of the things? Grapple isn't even the problem, I'm proposing it as one of many solutions to the balance situation.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 19:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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I made a summary. Zing! 
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 21:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Literally not a summary, and you may have just topped the OTHER worst idea I've seen in a long time.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 21:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: The question would be what would the opposing rolls made each round be. I'm partial to both Dex and Str rolls being made. Dex because you could wriggle out of it and Str because you may be able to overpower them. Pick up your PHB and read about grapple. You may learn something.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 22:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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If it causes a hazzle, and nobody can agree how to use it and what exactly can be done during and ... The dozen other variables - Then why not just say No to it? Seems like an easy solution.
It's like a toy in the sandbox two kids can't agree upon - Get rid of they toy!
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 23:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Um, grapple is very straightfroward, there is nothing complicated, and nothing to argue about. It is very clearly and exhaustively explained in the grappling rules on the SRD that you should be adhering to if you are making grapple checks and not simply roleplaying it.
The only "hazzle" (sic) it causes is when people try to shoehorn their own views into it, such as dexterity checks or strength checks or whatever. No, it is simply opposed grapple.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 23:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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I distinctively remember either grave or Uberuce posting the full explanation of 'Grapple' in the Improve Amia section, at that time known as "Suggestions" - And it was a whole page long almost. So it's not as easy as you make it out to be. let me dig it up.. Edit - It's 404'd. But it was something like this http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grapple
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 23:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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I agree with tormak on the point that pnp anything should be used as per the core books, buut, in grapples case dragon magazine pointed out about fifteen issues with the 3.5 version. I cannot for the life of me recall what they we're but something along the lines of 'broken'.
grapple checks = BAB + STR + special size mod.
step 1: attack of oppourtunity
step 2: grab (melee touch attack)
step 3: hold (opposing throw is done)
step 4: Maintain
etc, its a long section. what in the heck do we roll instead of escape artist? -_-
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 23:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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My point is that it's Omfgsuperluls complicated and somewhat extreme to even be using in the first place. there's just so many variables to have in mind that i think it would be better left Out of the Game. Especially a game where pvp and grapple are closely knit together and suddenly start rolling grapplechecks mid combat where IGMS fly all willy-nilly is ... 
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
Last edited by Mobile_Svensk on Sun, Apr 24 2011, 23:59 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 23:57 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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TormakSaber wrote: Quote: The question would be what would the opposing rolls made each round be. I'm partial to both Dex and Str rolls being made. Dex because you could wriggle out of it and Str because you may be able to overpower them. Pick up your PHB and read about grapple. You may learn something. I understand how it works in the PHB, Tormak, but the whole point is to make it fit Amia, not just blindly translate it over. If our devs decide that it's perfectly balanced as it is translated from PnP, then so be it. But I doubt it, which is why I went ahead and suggested how the opposing rolls could work. I wasn't trying to shoehorn, I just figured that the actual way PnP requires you to maintain it would not translate well. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 0:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The problem isn't grapple, the problem is a realtime combat environment, and you can't fix that no matter how you make grapple work.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 5:40 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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But we can try.
Again, the whole point here is including the simple things that make a big difference in the end for the people without magic. I believe I sent a large list to the devvies many moons ago of suggested things, but it was probably lost in all the stuff pre-dev-changes.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 11:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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I think there's a place for a game-engine means for one player to fix another in their location, Freedom be damned. For reasons of plausibility, balance and consideration of griefing, I reckon that should leave the grappler extremely vulnerable - I didn't suggest it as a viable combat tactic.
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Grymia
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 17:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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I'd agree from a balancing perspective that Grappling someone should leave you in turn a fair bit vulnerable.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 17:19 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Uberuce wrote: I think there's a place for a game-engine means for one player to fix another in their location, Freedom be damned. For reasons of plausibility, balance and consideration of griefing, I reckon that should leave the grappler extremely vulnerable - I didn't suggest it as a viable combat tactic. In PnP, a grappler looses his dexterity bonus to AC. On Amia I suppose that could be extended to Dodge AC as well. And it's a very viable combat tactic if one uses it in the right time and place. A single meleer facing down a caster, or better, two facing one. But you're not gonna get any genius awards for tackling a mage and leaving yourself defenseless while he still has friends to try to whack you off of him. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 18:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Well, that would be an arcane caster without Stilled spells. I don't see why it should help you to hug someone that need use only their voice to get either the Weave or their patron god to tear your head off.
It does bear mentioning that I'm only about 50% sold on my own idea or hypothetical other one I agree on for balance; just ditching grapple altogether works for me too.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, Apr 25 2011, 20:43 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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But "just ditching" it leaves us back at square one. As in classes and pseudo-magical classes have the monopoly what should be available to the mundane as well(Holding, disabling, etc).
If there's no trigger or method to sense when someone is casting a stilled spell or at least has the Feats Still Spell or Autostill, we could always chalk not being able to cast up to the grappler simply covering their mouth or interrupting any attempt they might make with a jab, headbutt, or sumsuch. Yes, you only need to speak, but try speaking while Ug over here is trying to french kiss you.
PnP handles it by a concentration check being made, 20+ the spell level of the spell you're trying to cast. Since on Amia it is ungodly easy to stack Concentration on equipment, we could make it concentration vs some opposing roll of the grappler. You fail to resist grappling, don't have any of the Still Feats, 100% arcane spell failure and held, taking some sort of damage from grappler. You fail to resist grappling, have Still Spell, concentration vs X roll won, you are still held, but can cast.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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