AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

oh yes and epic feats "Great wisdom" too. Casters love those high DC's

base wisdom 30 is high, ala dragonshape druids...the most your going to get on amia is 42? with items. 44 at a stretch with no epic spells and some sort of subracial dodgery.

at any rate the higher casters stats are the more DC you get to hit things. the higher the caster level the higher their spell resistance needs to be to defend without needing high saves.

as a rule of thumb with pure casters I just avoid anything remotely melee related, even toughness.

Yep yep makes total sense.

She's focused on buffing and healing, so I think the 20 WIS + equip will be just fine to suit her. Again, she's not supposed to be incredible for combat, heavier on the RP really.

Last edited by Naivatkal on Sat, Apr 23 2011, 4:28 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Alright, so here we go:

Female Mulan, CG, Cleric 27/Bard 3
First, I edited the stats a bit (after Mulan mods, of course)

STR: 13
DEX: 10
CON: 10
WIS: 16 (20)
INT: 12
CHA: 15 (20)

The STR was lowered a bit to be able to raise DEX by one, leaving her at average dexterity. A maxed Bull's Strength easily bumps her to 18 STR if need be, anyways.
I also dropped CON to 10 to make room for another point of CHA. This puts emphasis on the fact that she is not made for combat situations and also it gives the added benefit of not having to take Great Wisdom in epic.
And also INT dropped to 12 to facilitate an average Dexterity score, as she does not have a handicap. There's a RP reason for that, too, so do not worry.
So, those few RPish tweaks helped.

Now, classes and feats:

Mulan: (Quick to Master, Strong Soul)
01: Bard(1): Skill Focus: Perform, Skill Focus: Heal
02: Bard(2)
03: Cleric(1): Extend Spell, Domain Travel, Domain Trickery
04: Cleric(2): CHA+1, (CHA=16)
05: Cleric(3)
06: Cleric(4): Blind Fight
07: Cleric(5)
08: Cleric(6): CHA+1, (CHA=17)
09: Cleric(7): Maximize Spell
10: Cleric(8)
11: Cleric(9)
12: Cleric(10): CHA+1, Power Attack, (CHA=18)
13: Cleric(11)
14: Cleric(12)
15: Cleric(13): Divine Shield
16: Cleric(14): CHA+1, (CHA=19)
17: Cleric(15)
18: Cleric(16): Divine Might
19: Cleric(17)
20: Cleric(18): CHA+1, (CHA=20)
21: Cleric(19): Epic Skill Focus: Heal
22: Cleric(20)
23: Cleric(21)
24: Cleric(22): WIS+1, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=18)
25: Cleric(23): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=19)
26: Cleric(24)
27: Cleric(25): Epic Spell: Mummy Dust
28: Cleric(26): WIS+1, Armor Skin, (WIS=20)
29: Cleric(27)
30: Bard(3): Epic Fortitude

First of all, the classes. The two bard during initial creation, and the subsequent cleric level at third, are RP significant. Won't go into it, and I am sure other things could be done and all, but I'm not trying to make her a badarse.
On classes, though, I am still open to suggestions. I'll take the advice, run it through the concept, and see what fits. Bard does make a lot of sense for her, to be honest. And, it's only three levels so it's not like the song is going to be epic haha

For the feats, as of right now there is one pre-epic feat free.
I plugged in the most pertinent ones from what Mosh suggested. It was mostly what I expected anyways, and there is some tweaking needed.
Specifically, I have to decide on Greater Ruin (at a later date, at least), and Epic Fort as well.
I was seriously at a loss for what feats to take post-epic, so I took out Greater Ruin for now and threw in two Great Wisdom.
I could have gone the WIS route and given her 18 CHA and 22 WIS in the end, but I dunno. Still thinking on that, cause the extra +1 WIS could be helpful. Really, with her, either 20WIS/20CHA or 22WIS/18CHA works out just fine.

Now, for skills:
Concentration 33(33), Heal 33(51), Lore 10(14), Perform 5(13), Spellcraft 33(34), Tumble 30(30)

Nice and rounded, in my opinion.
Lore I am not too sure on, Concentration made sense. I might ditch Lore for more Perform, as it actively reflects her RP.

Anyways, feel free to pick away!
Suggestions always appreciated, I'll mention if something doesn't work for her concept. Just keep in mind this is also an RP build, so it's not supposed to be incredibly awesome.

Fixed a biiig issue: The lack of 20 WIS before EMD haha

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, Apr 22 2011, 21:51 PM, edited 1 time in total.

great thing about cleric/charisma based synergy, turn undead actually does something ^_^ question, why power attack with no cleave?

also I would personally if possible grab the extra wisdom but, thats +8 max on both which ain't too shaby.

ed: eck I always forget about those two >_> looks like you have it covered.

Power Attack is required for both Divine Shield and Divine Might. I was thinking to add Cleave, but it's too combat focused.
Divine Might passes the test only because it's, well, a divine gift form her goddess to aid in battle if she needed, much like Divine Shield.

Also, I think I may have found the right feat to add:
Skill Focus: Perform (combined with SF: Heal) for further RP significance for her early life.
Shifted Blindfight to her level 6 feat selection, Maximize to her lvl 9, and then Power Attack/DS/DM to levels 12/15/18 respectively.
Blindfight also moved to signify that she will not start any martial training until later in her life, as supported by the delay in getting Power Attack/DS/DM as well.

Divine Might and Epic Fort might still be interchanged for Expertise and Imp Expertise, for defensive combat significance, but that is something I am still pondering.

Oh, and if it sounds like I am trying to 'justify' things, don't worry. It helps me to explain the process behind her build creation. Gets my thoughts organized as, like I said, I'm not gonna half-arse her haha
Also, I've updated the build to reflect all of this.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

I'm going to make a character who likes to play with traps...and they always confuse me, what with the variable DC's for setting, disarming, recovering, etc. It APPEARS that if I plan on using disable out of combat (for the 'take 20' rule), I could RECOVER most traps with 25 skill points (giving a 45 roll total, or 10 higher than the typical 35 DC).

Is this a correct assumption, or do I need a way higher skill level on Amia?

Any ideas here?

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

I'm going to make a character who likes to play with traps...and they always confuse me, what with the variable DC's for setting, disarming, recovering, etc. It APPEARS that if I plan on using disable out of combat (for the 'take 20' rule), I could RECOVER most traps with 25 skill points (giving a 45 roll total, or 10 higher than the typical 35 DC).

Is this a correct assumption, or do I need a way higher skill level on Amia?

Any ideas here?

24 on my Rogue/SD/WM lets her pick up epic traps in the Abyss on Take20's. It's been a while, but I think I've got some items to bump Disable Trap on her, too.

I seem to remember Set Trap needing to be way higher, though. It's been a long time since I played with traps, though.

I believe you're correct; when I RTFW, it appears set trap does need to be higher, and I built the character that way. Just curious on how high I needed disable to recover some traps. Thanks folks.

Soooo, anyone? Comments? Please?

Even a 'You're crazy!' works

I'd just go with CHA 18, WIS 20 and start with STR 14, WIS 16, CHA 14. The extra point should go to CON. This also leaves one epic feat untapped.

Not a bad idea, definitely bears some thinking on. It would depend solely on if I feel she would require more CHA or not, in the end.

So something like:
STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 9 (10)
WIS: 17 (20)
INT: 12
CHA: 14 (18)

Is that what you were thinking?

Also, it would actually allow her to grab Expertise and Imp Expertise in epic if I really want/need her to.
Thoughts on that? I've never had a char with those two feats haha

Last edited by Ulir on Sat, Apr 23 2011, 22:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

I'm going to make a character who likes to play with traps...and they always confuse me, what with the variable DC's for setting, disarming, recovering, etc. It APPEARS that if I plan on using disable out of combat (for the 'take 20' rule), I could RECOVER most traps with 25 skill points (giving a 45 roll total, or 10 higher than the typical 35 DC).

Is this a correct assumption, or do I need a way higher skill level on Amia?

Any ideas here?

Depends. Recovering means +10 to the DC. I think the toughest traps are around 62 or so to recover. Traps placed by players will be harder to disable and recover, since an epic sonic trap placed by someone with 30 set trap skill, would require 88 to disable and 98 to recover.

25 is fine though. You can always get gadgets and items to help you improve the skill.

Naivatkal wrote:

Not a bad idea, definitely bears some thinking on. It would depend solely on if I feel she would require more CHA or not, in the end.

So something like:
STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 9 (10)
WIS: 17 (20)
INT: 12
CHA: 14 (18)

Is that what you were thinking?

Also, it would actually allow her to grab Expertise and Imp Expertise in epic if I really want/need her to.
Thoughts on that? I've never had a char with those two feats haha

Expertise can be handy if your AB is good and want to protect yourself from incoming blows. Imp. expertise is the same, but more for desperate defense.

Naivatkal... Drop 1 Cleric Level. Add 1 Ranger Level.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Naivatkal... Drop 1 Cleric Level. Add 1 Ranger Level.

Can you elaborate whyfor?

Bonus cleric feat at 26. And Ranger 1 gives another bonus feat, though the selection is limited.

It should be noted that the Gate spell gets an upgrade at 27 cleric, though.

I see, then. In another build, that might be a goo idea to add. For this gal, however, Ranger does not fit her.

But that's not to say the input is going thankless!

Hmm... I have a feeling that the build is pretty much set. I shall have to decide if it's 20/20 WIS/CHA or 20/18 WIS/CHA, and perhaps a couple of minor details, but that is fine with me.

Feel free to continue chiming in if you have advice, keeping in mind the RPness of the build, and I'll be happy to consider it as she levels!

Sure, though I wouldn't bother raising that CON to 10 anymoer. So you'd be left with two extra feats, it's not a bad trade.

That Ranger level would be beneficial, sure, but remember that upon taking it, your character is a Ranger and must act like one. Don't base your RP on the build, base your build on the RP.

Exactly! That's what I meant. Ranger wouldn't suit her, so I won't change her RP to add that class. However, for another build that makes sense then yeah it would be fine, ya'know? Not changing her for a build ^_^

And... yeah, need to decide on stats. 8/9 CON would emphasize a less combat-focused person, however I think the neg would start to signify health issues as well, hah.

Somehow I missed this, haha

Ulir wrote:

Also, it would actually allow her to grab Expertise and Imp Expertise in epic if I really want/need her to.
Thoughts on that? I've never had a char with those two feats haha

Expertise can be handy if your AB is good and want to protect yourself from incoming blows. Imp. expertise is the same, but more for desperate defense.[/quote]

What about from the stance of a defensive character? Someone that would normally not be going out on her own and who is definitely not engaging in toe to toe combat. I am unsure if she will actually wear heavy armor, also, so I figure it will help if she's in med armor or heavy armor. Quirks of the character.

Pretty much just trying to gauge the usefulness of the feats in general, beyond the point on having high AB. If it useful for people that are not going to be offensive in melee?

It will disengage the moment you try to cast a spell, and without being prepped for combat, you'll have to rely on party members to do all the killing. Also, if you wear cloth and have super low AC, with Improved Expertise, you'll still have super low AC. 10 base + 5 from Magic Vestments + 1-3 for shield + 5 Magic Vestments on that + 5 for Shield of Faith + 4 (or 5 ) Natural AC + 6 Tumble + dex mod of whatever = 36-39 AC without Divine Shield. 46-49 with Improved Expertise. That's still low enough to get you destroyed in high level places.

And someone with knowledge of it (since I've never had a Divine Shielder with IE) will be able to tell you if the AC stacks completely or not. I believe it does.

Oh yes, she will not be in cloth, at least. Gotta be medium a the bare minimum, likely chainmail at the very least.
Yeah, knew it disengaged, which both sucks and makes complete sense since you stop fighting to cast haha.

And to the point of her having to rely on party members: She's no fighter, she's a lover ;D
I loves my RP-centric builds.

Can war cry be empowered?

It can be extended, stilled, silent cast, and quickened. Can't be empowered or maximized as there's nothing there to increase.

I'm looking for a Monk/Cleric or Monk/Paladin, leaning more towards the Monk/Paladin as I'm looking for a melee guy.
He needs atleast 16 monk levels (Yes, even if this is weaker

), was thinking a hefty amount of Wisdom & Strength.

Any thoughts? I don't expect a complete build up to be thrown at me, just some thoughts about the class setups & ability scores.

Thanks!

hey, was wondering if anyone could help me with a harper scout build. I would like it to be a cross bow wielding halfling, I was thinking bard rouge harperscout but im pretty useless at building

so I dunno. any help would be much appreciated

STR-base Monk 20 with Epic Weapon Spec and 21BAB gets good value in the big old trade between offence and defence. It gains a good chunk of AC and all those lovely immunities and is maybe in the middle third of the DPS ladder.

Monk16/Pally4 into Monk20/Ftr4/Pally6 is how I'd do it. I'd go Devcrit, so

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 10
WIS 14
INT 10
CHA 10

You need Great STR 1, Armourskin, Overwhelm, Devcrit, Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec. Happily, you have four general feats and three from Fighter, so you're just right. Not sure what order I'd go in; it's a choice between the Monk20 goodies and the Epic Spec goodies first and both are ace.

Thanks for the advice, however I should've been more clear.

Atleast 16 monk, with either Cleric or Paladin added, nothing else

Well, the gimmick choices are Monk15/Cleric15 or Monk15/Paladin15. Due to recent Cleric nerfs I wouldn't bother going that route, but it's still completely operational. But yus, the solid choice is the one Uce already mentioned; Monk20/Ftr4/Pally6. However, I don't see why Monk25/Pally5 (4th attack, saves, minor pally goodies) or Monk20/Pally10 wouldn't work. With the latter option I'd take CHA aboard instead of Dev.

EDIT:

Quote:

hey, was wondering if anyone could help me with a harper scout build. I would like it to be a cross bow wielding halfling, I was thinking bard rouge harperscout but im pretty useless at building

so I dunno. any help would be much appreciated

Sorry, missed this. Bard/Rogue/HS? Sounds awfully gimped, but I guess you could pull off a Bard13/Rogue16/HS1 with Epic Dodge. If you want to do it more 'right', you could go e.g. Bard20/HS5/Rogue5, Bard25/HS5 or Bard26/Rogue3/HS1. A bard below its 20s won't net Lasting Winspiration, which is one of the Bard's key feats, but it's silly to say a Bard couldn't cope without it. That is untrue.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Well, the gimmick choices are Monk15/Cleric15 or Monk15/Paladin15. Due to recent Cleric nerfs I wouldn't bother going that route, but it's still completely operational. But yus, the solid choice is the one Uce already mentioned; Monk20/Ftr4/Pally6. However, I don't see why Monk25/Pally5 (4th attack, saves, minor pally goodies) or Monk20/Pally10 wouldn't work. With the latter option I'd take CHA aboard instead of Dev.

I played a STR-base pure Monk up to 27, and it was alright; I abandoned the character because I couldn't make his RP fun, not because he sucked.

I did miss the last attack and the +4 damage per hit and, while levelling, the payoff of all that spell resistance and two more AC didn't really matter, but I never felt like I had to apologise to my party for burdening them with him. He did enough DPS to be worth his share of the loot, and certainly died a lot less than twohanderers and so on.

I personally wouldn't go for Divine Might/Shield route on a Monk-heavy character. I looked at Monk20/Cleric10 before the Cleric nerf and didn't much like what I saw; you need as much buffing as a real Cleric to get your AB worthwhile, but you don't have the durations or casts/day to be anything but a bossrunner, and don't function well enough as a straight Monk to get their 24/7-PvP readiness. Obviously now with the nerf, I'd not touch it with a bargepole.

Thus, I say Monk25/Pally5, mahuh. Take Armourskin at Monk25 and you still get Epic WF, Great STR, Overwhelm and Dev.

EDIT:

Quote:

hey, was wondering if anyone could help me with a harper scout build. I would like it to be a cross bow wielding halfling, I was thinking bard rouge harperscout but im pretty useless at building

so I dunno. any help would be much appreciated

Quote:

Sorry, missed this. Bard/Rogue/HS? Sounds awfully gimped, but I guess you could pull off a Bard13/Rogue16/HS1 with Epic Dodge. If you want to do it more 'right', you could go e.g. Bard20/HS5/Rogue5, Bard25/HS5 or Bard26/Rogue3/HS1. A bard below its 20s won't net Lasting Winspiration, which is one of the Bard's key feats, but it's silly to say a Bard couldn't cope without it. That is untrue.

hmm okay what else goes with a HS, I only thought rouge because I wana use a crossbow and I would pretty useless with out sneaks. Plus my idea for the character is that he is sneaky scout type

Quote:

hmm okay what else goes with a HS, I only thought rouge because I wana use a crossbow and I would pretty useless with out sneaks. Plus my idea for the character is that he is sneaky scout type

You can do that without HS. Don't forget taking the class doesn't make you a canon Harper Scout in the official unofficial organization.

Rogue30 I say.

Quote:

You can do that without HS. Don't forget taking the class doesn't make you a canon Harper Scout in the official unofficial organization.

Rogue30 I say.

yeah I supose. well thanks for the help

19 rogue/5 hs/6 fighter with epic weapon spec ftw. Fun build and you get a lot of fun things to play with.

16 rogue/4 ftr pre-epic.

Actually if you're going with crossbow it might be wiser to go Rogue15/Fighter5 pre-epic so you can save that bonus rogue feat for epic levels for something better than Opportunist or the like.

Naiv... something or-other.... Take a level of Fighter then!

No Fightar! Sheeeee's a lovar!

But seriously, doesn't work XD Too martial lol
But thanks!

Quote:

19 rogue/5 hs/6 fighter

if you take fighter on level with feat no need to take 6 only 5. 1 in epic. not that, in this particular case it makes much of a difference.

No. You still want to go 6 fighter because of the bonus feat and because 20 rogue gives you nothing. Remember, Harper Scout can only be taken to 5.

Glyph wrote:

Quote:

19 rogue/5 hs/6 fighter

if you take fighter on level with feat no need to take 6 only 5. 1 in epic. not that, in this particular case it makes much of a difference.

In this particular build you can't really gain anything useful from snatching 20 rogue and 5 fighter, except you lose a feat.

To Naiv:
Perhaps she is a 21 bard/4 CoT/5 HS then? Maybe 23 bard/4 CoT/3 rogue? Just throwing things out there. An envious lova would benefit from the barbarian class and rage

so what sorta feats shall I take? if I do the 19 rouge/5hs/6fighter?

JackyHX wrote:

so what sorta feats shall I take? if I do the 19 rouge/5hs/6fighter?

Was it suppose to be a crossbow user?

Ulir wrote:

To Naiv:
Perhaps she is a 21 bard/4 CoT/5 HS then? Maybe 23 bard/4 CoT/3 rogue? Just throwing things out there. An envious lova would benefit from the barbarian class and rage

Hahahah

Part of her concept, though, is her divine connection with Sharess. I was pretty open to most classes at first, but
I do not like the aspect of Rogue being added to her, and the bonuses from the class do not do anything for her concept.
And with Harper Scout: I had not thought of that one, actually. Though, the skill points she will need do not work well with her, also. But darn good idea, in concept.

I made her last night, so gonna see how things go. Don't mind continued suggestions here and there, though. I think it's pretty much just let her rip and see what happens

Very_Svensk wrote:

JackyHX wrote:

so what sorta feats shall I take? if I do the 19 rouge/5hs/6fighter?

Was it suppose to be a crossbow user?

indeeedy

Rogues get bonus feat on level 10-13-16. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue Source
Go 15 Rogue / 5 Fighter Pre-Epic. Keep rogue 16 for Epic and use the Feat on something better than crippling strike since you're going crossbow.

Rogue bonus feats (You need em for Epic dodge)

For HS levels you need Alertness + Ironwill. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Harper_scout Source and Prerequisite feats / Skills.

You do best to grab Harper scout levels in Epic, Because at level 1 and 5 you get extra feats. Below are some examples

Quote:

Hint: When Harper scout levels are taken after level 20, more feat choices (besides curse song and favored enemy) are available as bonus feats at class levels 1 and 5. The full bonus feat list is: curse song, epic skill focus (all but animal empathy, perform, use magic device), epic will, favored enemy, great charisma, great dexterity, improved combat casting, and lasting inspiration.

For a cross-bow user you need Rapid reload http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Rapid_reload Source
Imp.Crit
Blind fight
Weapon focus (Epic weapon focus in Epic).

The typical build layout would be
1-15 Rogue
15-20 Fighter

Feats

(I suggest Called shot)

I don't know what type of feats you want in epic or anything, so im going to wait giving you the Epic setup. What was your concept? What skills are you planning to take etc?

Edit - Thanks Paladin. I forgot about halfway that he was going Crossbow.

15 Rogue/5 Fighter pre-epic so you don't waste a feat on Crippling Strike.

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

Who is online