Hello, I was just thinking about blackguards and paladins a bit. If a paladin falls from grace is he going to lose his paladin levels? What about if a blackguard goes goody two-shoes? In these events does the character get a rebuild or do they need to re-level/pay rebuild price in DCs/use their yearly rebuild?

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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

You broke my heart once Thamian.
Never again!
You're not real!

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Blackguard going goodshoe isn't that easy with the soul being contracted to some fiend.

It depends. Any divine class can temporarily Fall. In that case, you don't have to "lose" anything, you just become Fallen, and cannot use your divine powers. Assuming the PC tries to work to get back in favor, that's as far as it goes. Now if you Fall and turn away from that divine direction, or choose to progress in a direction other than that, then it is probably expected that you relevel into a non-divine class.

Now as far as if you have to pay DC, I believe you do not, but it probably varies case by case. If you're going from 5 Pal/2 Rogue to 5 Ftr/2 Rogue, then maybe not. But if you're going from 30 Pal to 12 Ftr/10 WM/8 Monk, likely, or maybe even a self-rebuild I'd imagine.

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You know I <3 you. I've been back for a few weeks now, catch me online!

Also, I'd kinda like an answer from a DM on the thread question. Your guys' advice is helpful and gives me a bit of thinking material, but I just want an authority to say what's up.

On the other hand it is kind of interesting to think about a Blackguard going good, with his soul sold in theory. Do blackguards only sell their souls to fiends or can a Blackguard be just an unholy knight for a Dark Goddess or something?

In addition, would this leave the soul of the Blackguard open for collection the moment he changes courses or would it not be available for collection until he dies?

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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

Blackguards can be regular clergymen getting powers from gods. And even those who've made a deal with the devil(s) didn't necessarily sell their soul. That's just one possible example. So yeah, nothing impossible about abandoning your Blackguard career if you didn't make a contract for (after)life. It could've been something like "lead my cult, further my influence and provide regular sacrifices and you get powers." I do find total shifts from paladin to BG and vice versa pretty unbelievable and boring, though. Paladins becoming NG vigilantes or Blackguards keeping to their selfish ways but weaseling out of a bad deal are much more interesting.

You will get a Fall widget. If you're forced to rebuild, I reckon you'll get it for free. But you'll probably just be left with the Fallen levels.

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One thing is for certain though; you'll not be able to retain your previous divine class. ie, no Paladin/Blackguards.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

A fallen paladin or blackgaurd is a fighter that can't take weapon spec. which isn't much of a fighter at all. Personally, I'd have no problem slapping a fallen widget on someone and just letting that be that, I wouldn't ever force someone to rebuild as that would allow them to take weapon spec and free up any feats tied up into divine abilities.

Also, you can't be a pally/bg combo because unless I'm mistaken, the fallen widget removes all the divine do-dads from your character. It wouldn't differentiate between your pally save bonus and your bg save bonus and would just null out both of them. So, in that case, you'd want to rebuild.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Shouldn't "fallen" blackguards get a redeemed token, since you can't be fallen twice over?

Seriously though, Paladins and blackguards shouldn't be considered and measured against each other.. Think of it more like Blackguards and Divine Champions.. Both are generally unstructured and take their own path in service of their god/fiend. Afaik it's pretty hard to fall as one of these classes because they are so free and can be made so unique from person to person. As long as you're not betraying your god or it's dogma, or your alignment drifts too far off course, you're pretty safe from being fallen.

Paladins follow the whole law and moral code thing, whereas a divine champion can easily be like an avenger, stating that he or she will stop at nothing to kill an enemy of the church and continue to charge at them no matter what gets in the way. This is why I personally think Divine champions can be much more badass than paladins. Uncompromising, unburdened by mortal dogma or codes as they only follow their god. OR they can be completely opposite. The fact is that the class is VERY open ended depending on the deity you follow and the type of your char. So ultimately unless your char or how you play him or her go against the deity the char follows, you probably won't be fallen.

The same can be said for blackguards mostly, where blackguards can end up doing several good deeds that on their own look like they go against their interests. Not all blackguards have to be chaotic stupid. And even if they do good deeds for no other reason than to throw people off, or because they wanted to, unless their god or fiendish master frown on it, they probably won't get fallen.

Of course this is just my opinion and I've no idea how the DM team judges such matters, but I doubt that blackguards or divine champions would get fallen as quickly as a paladin or druid, since their very nature allows for a lot of 'wiggle room'

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Thank you for the useful responses everyone. Here's a question, then. Would it be feasible for a fallen Blackguard to relevel with Divine Champion levels, if his act of betrayal of his Blackguard God is simultaneously turning coat to follow another God?

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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

Not immediately, at least. Perhaps over time. But simultaneously would mean the god you're turning to is doling out these powers to your rather quickly, while on Amia even if you're a cleric switching to another deity, you still go through a Fallen period under most circumstances.

I don't see any deity being that kind to a Blackguard off the bat, anyway, even if they are evil as well. Yeah, you're coming to their side, but you just betrayed your past deity. Not only are you pre-indoctrinated goods, but you've proven that you'll switch teams when you feel like it. And while that's working to the new deity's favor this particular instance, how are they to know that you wouldn't desert them sometime in the future? In a lot of cases, you may have double to prove over what a non-divine convert would have to. And that means time spent showing them you're not a fair-weather friend.

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While not many deities might like that, the hells are all too happy to welcome fallen paladins in their ranks.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Yeah, there could be the possibility that a BG shifting from a deity to a devil/demon could have it a bit easier. The evil outsider you make your contract doesn't really have to worry about you shifting teams too much, seeing as you made the pact. You can't really backstab them and what you do with your powers is your own business as long as they get your soul in the end.

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Thanks Dark this is a very helpful response.

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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

If approved, 90% of the rebuilds would be selfers.