AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

Not nescessary Tero. Flame here again and you'll find yourself playing world of bancraft.

That goes for everyone else, including me. No more controverting the forum rules because everyone who posts regularly in the build topic is an egotistical dickhead.

rolto wrote:

oshizo2 wrote:

thank you rolto. now i know what to do with dropping mobility i can take toughness and stealthy just because i have so few hp's and no epic dodge.

Epic dodge would be nice to have, but as long as you retain your dex bonus then you'll probably be alright.

In terms of AoO, I wonder, does Blindfight als become useless when you have enough Tumble ranks/Spring Attack feat and/or Uncanny Dodge?

Uncanny Dodge says; The character retains his dexterity bonus to AC, even if caught flat-footed or attacked by a hidden or invisible creature.

I would say yes, in the case of Uncanny Dodge, but what about the others?

Blindfight and Uncanny Dodge are completely different concepts. Blindfight helps you when you are attacking, Uncanny Dodge helps you when you are the one being attacked. So no, Blindfight does -not- become useless.

Seems like I recall blind fight also giving you the ability to attack at a normal roll or something. That would still make it useful. Hah got beat to the punch.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Blind_fight

It won't negate miss-chance entirely, but rerolling the check does make it more likely you'll hit. This may be the main draw of the feat (seems like it?), with improved invisibility being fairly easy to get, but don't quote me on that.

Also unseen attackers won't get +2 to hit you. The feat does overlap a little bit with uncanny dodge regarding flat-footed AC however (as far as I can tell, uncanny dodge does a better job of protecting you unless your listen is awesome).

serbiris wrote:

(as far as I can tell, uncanny dodge does a better job of protecting you unless your listen is awesome).

IMO, uncanny dodge is awesome cause of all the times your character decides to stand idle in the middle of 6 enemies that bashes at him. To me it happens very often, like if I have just killed one of them or they move around.

It's important to note that you only keep your Dex bonus, not your Dodge AC bonus. So those Tumble ranks, +5 boots, Bardsong AC, Haste AC, Divine Shield AC? All gone when flatfooted.

why is epic dodge so hyped?

TeroSNS wrote:

why is epic dodge so hyped?

It's the bane of lucky 20's.

Only thing that can save you against them except concealment.

TormakSaber wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Glyph wrote:

according to a thread I found in search, and the players handbook now I think about it, level 13. that said its like shadowjump and other abilities, not one you just find yup.

13 levels in shifter or Druid or shifter/Druid combined (Example; 5Druid levels and 8 Shifter levels)

No. Incorrect.

13 druid levels OR 7 shifter levels. Again, Svensk, if you're going to try to play mini DM, be correct at least.

Please update this thread? viewtopic.php?f=20&p=934717#p934717

Astro_Black wrote:

TeroSNS wrote:

why is epic dodge so hyped?

It's the bane of lucky 20's.

Only thing that can save you against them except concealment.

Can it be used to the first strike that HITS, or just only the first attack that ever comes?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Epic_dodge

Quote:

* This feat causes a character to automatically avoid the first successful attack or the first (possibly unsuccessful) attack of opportunity in a round, not simply the first attack in a round.
* Epic dodge only applies to a character's current target or latest attacker.
* The defensive roll and improved evasion requirements imply a PC must have one of the following class level combinations in order to qualify for epic dodge:
o 13 rogue levels,
o 10 shadowdancer levels,
o 10 rogue and 5 shadowdancer levels,
o 9 monk and 10 rogue levels, or
o 9 monk and 5 shadowdancer levels.

TeroSNS wrote:

why is epic dodge so hyped?

Because it is the best feat in the game.

Last edited by TeroSNS on Thu, Apr 14 2011, 22:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.

so... is there a build with buttloads of ac, and epic dodge?

maybe even with impr. invis?

Some SD/Bard/PM DEX based probably.

Nigh immortal, I'd say. But absolutely useless

20Bard/10SD works, too? Epic dodge and Nifty hips for uber damage avoiding.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Nigh immortal, I'd say. But absolutely useless

no bard spells, no caster levels and sucks hitting.

The bard 20 / SD 10 could be a fun one.

Cursesong
Hips
Cursesong
Hips
Taunt
Hips
Sings
Hips
Cursesong
Hips
Taunts more
Hips.

does epic dodge work on ranged touch attack, aka touch attack spells?

Not as far as I know.

Several question concerning palemasters, wizards and some epic feats.

1. Are Epic Spells not avalible or not allowed (or both) for characters who mechanically could take them, but don't have ability to cast lvl 9 arcane spells? Say if one has 15 wizard levels + PM level?

2. Same question as above just for auto-still spell?

3. Say if one has 10 wizard levels, but becouse of Palemaster is mechanically capable of casting lvl 7 spells. Does Palemaster affects the spell level of the wizard? If yes, is the character allowed to cast lvl 7 spells even though he doesn't have 13 wizard levels?

1) You won't be able to cast the epic spells without access to level 9 spells.

2) Same.

3) 10 wizard / 5 palemaster will let you cast level 7 spells. 10 wizard / 9 palemaster will let you cast level 8 spells. You gain caster levels at 1/2 the rate as a wizard, so it takes you longer to open up new spell levels, but they do work together to get you to level 9 spells with enough levels between the two.

This is enforced mechnically or by the rules?

For a Rogue/Ranger type Dexer, with 9d6 Sneak at 30, I have three feats possible in the last few levels. The toss-up is between:

- Epic Skill Focus: Hide
- Epic Skill Focus: MS
- Epic Skill Focus: Spot
- Improved Sneak Attack I, II, and III.
- Weapon Prowess.

I've pumped Hide/MS/Spot to max 33 in skills, and will likely be wearing gear that helps all three. Am I better off taking the Imp Sneak Attacks over the skill bonuses? Or would I need the skill bonuses?

Shrewd wrote:

For a Rogue/Ranger type Dexer, with 9d6 Sneak at 30, I have three feats possible in the last few levels. The toss-up is between:

- Epic Skill Focus: Hide
- Epic Skill Focus: MS
- Epic Skill Focus: Spot
- Improved Sneak Attack I, II, and III.
- Weapon Prowess.

I've pumped Hide/MS/Spot to max 33 in skills, and will likely be wearing gear that helps all three. Am I better off taking the Imp Sneak Attacks over the skill bonuses? Or would I need the skill bonuses?

Personally I would think ESF: Hide and Move Silently and then take Weapon Prowess for the extra 1 AB. Chances are your gear will focus on hide/ms so you are not going to be an epic spotter, so I would think the ESF: Spot would be a waste. Extra AB is always nice, too. As for the extra sneak damage, again I think the ability to counter epic spotters outweighs this. Course that is kinda from a PvP standpoint lol

I could also be horribly wrong, just my opinions.

Dead wrote:

This is enforced mechnically or by the rules?

I don't see how this difference affects you since either way you're not going to be doing it, but it's enforced mechanically.

Hmm, so in that case, what about: Epic Prowess, Epic Hide, Epic Spot? Since people generally don't have a high listen score, the MS wouldn't need to be boosted all that much?

Hah ironically I was thinking about that but I failed to mention it.

Seems like a good idea. I think that Hide/Spot would be better cause, yes, most of the time Listen is not booted epicly. You need to keep the skill up to protect against that listen boosting spell, but that's it. At least, that is what I have gathered lol

people seam to forget due to the tick thing that listen is very useful, you can "see" invisible people to the maximum attack range. that means any wizard who hasn't buffed their move silent is in for a bit of trouble.

conversely spot is better for hidden creatures that arn't invisible. some mix of the two and most likely a higher spot is from a mechanical standpoint probably the best plan for a spotter. epic skill focuses are essential, sd's may take both hide and move silent as epic focuses, the closer to absolute max on spot the better chance you have at ever seeing them coming.

prowess is a useful boost on top of epic weapon focus if you can afford it, but there are usually better things to grab, like improved sneaks. depends if your AB is reasonable or not.

Improved Sneak doesn't do anything if you don't have Sneak Attacks. For instance, if your only form of sneak damage is Death Attack... it won't work.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Dead wrote:

This is enforced mechnically or by the rules?

I don't see how this difference affects you since either way you're not going to be doing it, but it's enforced mechanically.

I will not indeed.

Curious.. how would a pure STR based monk work out? He'd be lacking AC I think, but wouldn't his AB and damage be good as well as his saves?

Just like every time someone asks about an STR monk: It will work fine. Your AC will still be quite good, your AB the same as a dex monk due to finesse, and you'll have better STR but worse Reflex.

_________________ *Inactive as of November 28, 2013*

Hey, everyone. I'm looking for a good "sneaky-type" blackguard build, and I think I'm going with Blackguard 16, Fighter 4, Rogue 2 with these stats:

Human
Weapon: Greatsword

Str 17
Dex 9
Con 10
Wis 14
Int 10
Cha 14

I intend to go for both Devastating Critical and Epic Fiend Summon. Could somebody create a basic flowchart on when I should take certain class levels and which feats and skillpoints I should take on which levels? Feel free to improvise with the rest of the feats!

Thanks in advance!

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Think I will end up with Hide/MS/Spot, just in case. Ranger levels give a decent AB anyway!

Quick question:

What do you plan to do with the other 8 levels?
I say go 8 Farmer so you can grow your own food and be independent!
But seriously, that'd be helpful

Ah.. hmm. Perhaps a dex based monk.. but I don't want to use kamas.

I belive wep finesse applies to unarmed strikes.

But -everyone- does dex based Monks heh
If you don't want to use kamas, go unarmed! Seriously, the level 8 monk I have in storage is gonna be free rebuilt into a STR based monk and he's unarmed. 1d20 fists at level 16!

Plus, going STR based means you never have to worry about carrying things if you need to, and you are set on the bonus damage from the STR modifier. Also, nothing stops you from putting some points into DEX to add a couple AC or so as well. Like:

STR 17 (24)
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 10

Or some mix like that. Don't quote me, though, cause that could end up like crap. It just seems like a decent starting point. Plus it reflects the wisdom of the monk and also gives you some dexterity. Course, you can drop DEX and increase INT for more skills, though 10 INT lets you grab fours skills maxed (Discipline, Tumble [maxed if you want], perhaps Lore or Heal, maybe Concentration, etc). Course if you want to be sneaky, you will want a higher INT to grab the usual Monk skills and Hide/MS.

Again, this is just off the top of my head. I -think- this all makes sense, but I wanna test this against the more knowledgeable builders to see if I've learned anything yet, heh.

dayfer wrote:

I belive wep finesse applies to unarmed strikes.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_finesse

That it does.

TormakSaber wrote:

Just like every time someone asks about an STR monk: It will work fine. Your AC will still be quite good, your AB the same as a dex monk due to finesse, and you'll have better STR but worse Reflex.

Seconded, from personal experience.

Naivatkal wrote:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_finesse

That it does.

Yes!!!

But yeah, go with what makes sense, if the monk is likely to be the strong type, go with STR, and if he's the nimple kind, then go with DEX. Both work well build wise.

Claimh Solais wrote:

Hey, everyone. I'm looking for a good "sneaky-type" blackguard build, and I think I'm going with Blackguard 16, Fighter 4, Rogue 2 with these stats:

Human
Weapon: Greatsword

Str 17
Dex 9
Con 10
Wis 14
Int 10
Cha 14

I intend to go for both Devastating Critical and Epic Fiend Summon. Could somebody create a basic flowchart on when I should take certain class levels and which feats and skillpoints I should take on which levels? Feel free to improvise with the rest of the feats!

Thanks in advance!

First I'd wonder how you got to be a 4 fighter/2 rogue/16 BG!

STR monk it is >:O Even have a cool concept for him.

Sin4given wrote:

STR monk it is >:O Even have a cool concept for him.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

1) You won't be able to cast the epic spells without access to level 9 spells.

Incorrect.

Papa Wiki wrote:

Pale masters can take epic spells at level 15, regardless of spell casting ability, provided they meet the spellcraft requirements. The duration of the spells chosen while leveling as a pale master will be based on pale master levels.

Claimh: I take it you mean BG16/Fighter12/Rogue2. It's a stellar build though a bit mundane on Amia. The other version is BG16/Fighter4/Rogue10 which is lovely as well. Spot isn't mandatory, though it does fit the BG quite nicely; BG has a lot of room to up it not to talk about the initial WIS 14.

So, the skills you 'have to' invest in are Discipline, Tumble (30) and UMD. If you want Spot aboard you must raise your INT to 12 which you may as well raise to 13 to gain access to Improved Knockdown.

Rather than handing you a ready-made build, it is a custom of the thread that you have a go at it yourself. So, make a draft of the build that has all the general stuff and send it here. We'll correct and instruct you more if need be.

Another example is the 16BG/13Rogue/1Ranger - DEXbased epic dodger. It's easy as cake to level

Depends actually the 16 1 13 is alright but it lacks what makes a heavy sneaker great and thats crippling strike, and its very hard to pull out divine might and shield unless you're willing to abuse specific races and min max heavily in regards to CON.

I ran one without Divine might/shield and it worked allright. The Epic dodge makes up for most of it's flaws. It'll land at 12d6 or 14d6 Sneak too, which is not to shabby.
But yes - it's defenitedly scary if you add divine might/Shield to it, but then i'd rather use Opustus version with 4 Fighter levels, That way you can fit crippling and even dev.crit.

Opustus version is my version he tried using it during an ugly period in his life when he played an elf. Luckily he sobered up and discontinued the heresy.

Also known as puberty.

Anyway, 13/1/16 is a bit of a gimmick. Not anywhere near the worst of gimmicks, but still it is complicated and requires lots of minmaxing, which by far doesn't look pretty on the paper. If I were to play one, I'd grab CHA just for the sake of it. I don't really understand why Svensk brought this up, this particular build, because it's only one among the tens or even hundreds of workable BG mixes, not to mention how clear it is what the player in question is looking for.

Any suggestions on levels and feats for a rogue/sorc/SD?

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

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