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Elorathall

Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2011, 20:12 PM

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Joined: 13 Mar 2011

If I want my character, who has limited Spells Known, to know 3.5 PnP spells instead of the standard NWN spells...

1. Is this something I need to apply for?
2. Is this information that needs to be available for all players?

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dayfer

Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2011, 20:13 PM

Player

Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Location: England

I THINK their OK to use with player permission, not entirely sure.

P Three

Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2011, 20:14 PM

Player

Joined: 18 Dec 2008

They're all right to use, but you must get permission from anyone you use them on.

To make them into actual spells, you'll need to request them.

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Gravemaskin

Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2011, 20:39 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

And if you want to use them in DM events, ask the DM beforehand, and make sure you have "empty" spellslots to burn for the respective spells. For sorcs it means you need to pick otherwise useless spells like the ranged and self variants of the placeholder spell in 0-9.

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Charles1810

Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2011, 21:00 PM

Player

Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Hubbard, Ohio

As a wizard the common spells I use with player consent, but anything I feel is strong would call a dm in or request ahead. Examples for common spells: sending, mage hand, feather fall, nondetection. Hard spells I refuse to touch unless dm present: scrying, dislearn location, wish, limited wish, symbol, invisible servent, teleport.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2011, 22:02 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Gravemaskin wrote:

For sorcs it means you need to pick otherwise useless spells like the ranged and self variants of the placeholder spell in 0-9.

I was actually told that we could not do this. Otherwise, I'd certainly have done it for my Sorc who has much different cantrips from the ones actually in the game.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 4:19 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

I won't let a spontaneous caster cast PnP spells unless you can prove to me that you spent a level up spell choice on SPECIFICALLY THAT SPELL.

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Grymia

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 4:29 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

Okay, tech question given Tormy's words:

- Does taking the spells such as 'Unique spell personal, Unique spell Ranged' without having a DC spell for them cause any techinical issues?

Heard one yes and that's it.

TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 4:50 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

I don't know, i don't do the scripts.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 6:42 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

TormakSaber wrote:

I won't let a spontaneous caster cast PnP spells unless you can prove to me that you spent a level up spell choice on SPECIFICALLY THAT SPELL.

So is that a "yes", taking the custom spell space holders is okay to represent that a spontaneous caster has a PnP spell(provided DM's know that you have the spell beforehand)? Because I asked that very same question when we first got them and I received a no from multiple DMs.

Grymia wrote:

- Does taking the spells such as 'Unique spell personal, Unique spell Ranged' without having a DC spell for them cause any techinical issues?

From what I tested back when we first got the hak, no. They just do a neat VFX, and take up their charge or slot, or what have you. Which makes them ideal for trying to represent PnP spells, legitimately.

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DerkDerkistan

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 7:10 AM

Player

Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth

I think he's saying that it's -not- allowed, DI. Unless you, say, put it in your bio that the 6th circle self-only unique spell is [insert spell here].

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IronAngel

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 10:29 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

He said that he won't allow pulling spontaneous spells out of your ass if you ask him. It applies in his events and whenever he's concerned (and probably with other DMs and players too, but nobody said that much). There's no general rule yet, which you can see by checking R&L. Different DMs have had different opinions, and different classes have somewhat different argumentation related to them.

DI, you were probably told no because that might imply your PnP spell is somehow "legitimate" and "DM-approved." Even if you did that, you'd still need player and/or DM consent to use it. Every time. As long as there's no rule posted in R&L, I guess you "can" go about it however you want.

That's why you shouldn't play Sorcerers, and play your Bards as wizardly scholars like good old 2e!

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Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Apr 13 2011, 10:31 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Silvarus

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 10:31 AM

Player

Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Yus. PnP spells and sorcerers dont mix well.

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IronAngel

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 10:33 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Silvarus wrote:

Yus. PnP spells and sorcerers dont mix well.

Personally I've never had problems with assuming your sorcerer might know a few theme-appropriate PnP/utility spells too. But it's a matter of taste and staying within reason. I doubt anyone approves of inventing ad hoc spells at a moment's notice.

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PaladinOfSune

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 10:50 AM

Player

Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK

Grymia wrote:

No, it doesn't.

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Silvarus

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 10:55 AM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

IronAngel wrote:

Silvarus wrote:

Yus. PnP spells and sorcerers dont mix well.

I tend to be ok with sorcerer cantrips.

Some servers have used a policy where each sorcerer is allowed to choose one PnP spell per level, which requires that there is a policy and rules for ther use.

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Ziacat

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 11:14 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Finland GMT +2 (+3 in summer)

I find excessive use of PnP spells, abilities etc. quite troublesome because most of the time I honestly have no idea what people are doing, unless I have enough time to get familiar with the particular spell/ability/whatever. Someone may think it's unfair that my inner sloth prevents one from slinging super spells which admittely could kick the event/plot into a whole new sphere, but hey, that's how it is with me. In my opinion less is more; when magic isn't available as a quick-fix for every issue, the process of 'mundane' problem solving becomes more meaningful.

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Elorathall

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 11:23 AM

Player

Joined: 13 Mar 2011

Would it be fair to make a listing of which PnP spells your sorcerer or bard knows on the character's wiki page, or the character description thread, then?

Jehran

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 14:43 PM

Player

Joined: 25 Dec 2007

Elorathall wrote:

Would it be fair to make a listing of which PnP spells your sorcerer or bard knows on the character's wiki page, or the character description thread, then?

I know of at least one bard who did this, and I think going about it that way (either in the request forum or the wiki) you can tell (DM's at least) that it was your intention to have this spell all along.

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Yossarin

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 14:53 PM

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Joined: 23 Jan 2006

TormakSaber wrote:

I won't let a spontaneous caster cast PnP spells unless you can prove to me that you spent a level up spell choice on SPECIFICALLY THAT SPELL.

This for me, but I have an exception - the spontaneous caster can find a means of acquiring a scroll of the spell somewhere, but will probably not convince me he or she "already has it on his person". And when you do get it, I require the use of the listed components (or components it needs that I manufacture).

Fact of the matter is, the wizard is the utility-versatility caster, and the sorceror is the one who has the benefit of innate rather than learned magic. I have a veeeerrrrry long lesson about the history of wizards, sorcerors, and bards and why their styles are different and how it all evolved, but that's an IC thing.

And Iron suddenly scratches the surface of why my bard's Int started higher than his Cha and why he's a "spontaneous caster" who nonetheless follows a wizardly paradigm, perhaps even ironically so.

Ziacat

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 15:05 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Finland GMT +2 (+3 in summer)

Elorathall wrote:

Would it be fair to make a listing of which PnP spells your sorcerer or bard knows on the character's wiki page, or the character description thread, then?

If you want to, be my guest.

But unfortunately, by the time you run into my event and wish to perform a PnP thingy, I've forgotten about your spell list in the Wiki and my purple hair becomes gray due to the anxiety and panic caused by uncertainty. I will then put you on my Black List of too difficult and smart players who always want to do something else than spam IGMS on every moving thing. <.<

Thank Ao, I'm most likely the only DM who has problems with PnP related stuff, so if you want to cast a PnP spell in a DM event, the DM in charge ought to give you thumbs up or down plus requirements for the spell.

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Yossarin

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 15:15 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

You're not alone, Zia. I only allow it if it is thoughtful and sensible and looking it up doesn't require me to pause the flow of action. Fortunately, most of the time I've had to deal with PnP spell use, it has been for the purposes of investigation and information-gathering, so there's no action paused and I have the luxury of reading the details of the PnP spell.

Telling me you want to cast some weird spell in the middle of a conflict is likely going to have me telling you to use your brain rather than your reliance on magic to solve your problems.

DustSpray101

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 15:56 PM

Player

Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale

I wanted to ask as they keep cropping up and it is on topic...

Necrotic cysts and cyst spells. As I have yet to read that we have a system on them, so I simply wished for some clarification: the spell behind them is PnP, and hence requires everyone's OK at it's installation... But then shouldn't you need OKs any time you try to use it against others etc. that were not present at the casting?

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 16:18 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

IronAngel wrote:

Silvarus wrote:

Yus. PnP spells and sorcerers dont mix well.

But I wasn't trying to get ad-hoc spells. And by virtue of the fact that the spells are still PnP spells, I'd still require PC permission to ever use them. Wouldn't make them DM approved, it would just let DM's know that that's what my PC is supposed to know.

There has to be a simple and easy way for PC's to get DM's to know "Hey, this is what I'm representing with these, if you ever see me claim to cast anything different, you know what to do." That, or you know, you could use a thing called judgement, and see if this seems like the sort of player that would have their sorc pull things out of their ass.

It's either put a smidgen of faith in the playerbase that fire-themed sorcs aren't going to claim to have Water Breathing when they get stuck underwater, or use of bit of reasoning and investigating when and if any do. I mean, you guys are DMs. Just because a PC says they have X PnP, doesn't mean you have to let them cast it. If the situation seems just too "perfect" for them to know it, then make up a reason why it doesn't work. Same way you'd do if a Wizard slotted "Unique Spell: Self" and didn't tell you what it was after he rested.

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Grymia

Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011, 17:24 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

Ziacat wrote:

--

I can appreciate this position, but at the same time, playing a Spellcaster I do have to ask a definition on what is 'Excessive' ?

I ask this be kept in mind: For Spellcasters (especially Wizards) Magic IS what they are primarily. Tuomas admittedly is something of a blend between the mundane sciences and magic , but primarily he's a Wizard.

This said, I also appreciate as a DM the need to keep what's happening interesting. At the same time though, wouldn't a rightly applied spell be interesting in it's own right?

Let's take a quick example:

* During a plot , Tuomas has been holding onto a powerful reliquary for some time (the Blueprints to a Divine Engine, Gond's hammer? The last Will and Testemant of Marvin McGuffin?) , and he's ambushed by a group of people taking it who completely disappear and he's awoken hours later by his comrades, the trail having gone completely cold.

Having held onto the powerful reliquary for some time, he has enough of a connection to use 'Discern Location' to find it.

From the DM side, there are a few options to denying the spell reasonably:

1) Given the group probably knew they were dealing with a Mage, they could have prepared accordingly using any number of magical spells and similar that can ward against such. *Discern is powerful but there are things that block it*

2) Knowing this was a likely course on his part again because he's a Mage, they could have taken him with them *He's not a large fellow and could probably be fit in a large carrying case* , either to question him , to force him to help them use it, or to otherwise keep him from being a problem. *There are of course variations on this theme too*

3) This group, being particularly insidious have concocted a form of Mage's bane poison (Not sure if there really is one in FR but it'd be a very NASTY sorta thing I could see), and have injected him with it. If he casts a spell, he damages himself based on the strength of the spell.

4) The item is indeed located: Hidden Vault of Oh-my-god-are-you-insane-to-be-trying to breachicus, (whatever region it is), Amia, Abeir Toril, Prime Material Plane. Do you want to set up arrangements to try to teleport there?
--

All of the options above have their potential drawbacks really, but they are all potential solutions to the problem of a spell.

I apologize if I come off as strongly opinionated about this particular subject.

Ziacat

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 6:15 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Finland GMT +2 (+3 in summer)

With 'excessive' I meant using magic as some omnipotent and universal solution to everything (which it is, but let's ignore that point for now), from a sore thumb to an army of orcs raiding a settlement or demons taking over Amia. I suppose that's what DnD is all about, solving problems by magical means, but if it was taken to the extreme all the time, creating meaningful and interesting events would become pretty hard. I want to scare you, I want that you shit your pants in my events - but I can't make that happen if you always have some super solution to all the obstacles and horror I present. So I cheat and say, 'No, you can't cast that weird PnP spell even though there's no real reason why you couldn't do it', because A) I have no time or interest to figure out how the spell works, B) it makes things too easy, and I'll feel the time I spent creating entertainment was time wasted.

In my opinion plots are not about the final solution. Plots are about searching for the solution, failing in the process, and maybe in the end succesfully managing to do something satisfying.

I understand your point as a player of a wizard, Grymia, but don't worry: Wizards and other casters, too, will have their moments to shine!

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 7:04 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

If you're afraid of not being able to scare casters, Ziakitty, one word:

Nishruu.

But again, as long as Wizards tell DM at the time of slotting what PnP spells they're shooting for, or at the beginning of an event, the DM knows somehow what a Sorcerer means to represent, there shouldn't be any problems, right? And even so, you guys always have the power go "nope, doesn't work." And while that may leave a bitter taste in the mouths of players(I for one know it would in mine), ultimately it comes down to how you want to run the story. And if a player having Warp Wood somehow cuts your 2 hr long planned quest to a minute and some change, you can concoct some reason why it doesn't work.

We should expect a DM to make the best decision for the story just as we should be able to expect the players to not blatantly abuse a privilege that when abused only cheapens their own RP.

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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.

Glyph

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 9:01 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

the detect 'insert here' array of spells is one I personally see alot, I only have one comment, if your going to use them read the spell description first

detect evil does not tell you their alignment in one round, nor is it an AoE spell. yup.

prestegitation or however you spell that >_> and mage hand are easily emoted, as are a few others, but its best not to go overboard with it, not everyone will agree to play along.

I get what tormak means too, but I would fail to explain it, difference between wizards and sorcs, etc.

ed: the magic eatery thing is scary stuff

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 9:07 AM

Player

Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

The magic eater thing isn't as scary as the 'Flying piece of flesh' that exist. At least it only prey on magic... Just stop spamming spells and begone!

Quote:

A skin kite is an animated slice of skin, usually 5 feet (1.52m) in length, that is constantly in danger of rotting away. Like dead leaves, they fall from the sky on their victims, where they "meld" with their prey's skin, tearing off a section and absorbing it. In this way they replenish their rotting bodies long enough to find more victims.

No two skin kites look identical, as their bodies are made of the skin type and color of their recent prey. It is not uncommon for skin kites to have random clumps of hair, furthering their gruesome appearance.

That's ecky.
Back on topic
What kjetta says is true. Even though my character is a blasted level 27 cleric or 29 wizard, I try to use the most mundane method as possible to solve a puzzle or an issue. Ain't no fun when the wizard shoots off a fireball, blasts the wall away, and goes 'Tadaa! New entrance, No need to bother with the DM's intricate labyrinth! "

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SLS

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 11:04 AM

Player

Joined: 09 Feb 2010

You know, since we're on the subject of PnP spells.
Would it be possible for a spellcaster of considerable power to research the other Epic Spells that are available in PnP through the appropriate RP?

Naturally the study/research as well as the cost in gold and XP would be taken according to the PnP rules, not to mention the needed spellcraft checks.
It would eventually have to be requested as a DC item or level 9 spell of course.

jimbono1

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 11:15 AM

Player

Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

I would assume PnP Epic spells would require DM permission and probably a DM overseeing the entire thing.

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Gravemaskin

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 11:26 AM

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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Epic spells probably require a request, you wasting a feat at epic level, and then burn the DCs, costs, months or years of RP for the seeds required, as well as the spellcraft check, and burn cost and XP for every failed attempt as you have to start over etc etc..

Thankfully nobody is EVER going to make the spellcraft requirement of Vengeful gaze of god. :roll:

But boy would I like living lightning on my air affinity sorc

So why not do what I'm going to do to solve that problem, tone it down a bit, amiafy it and then make it into a DC request.

Epic spells in NWN are overrated anyway because you can only cast them once, not based on how many epic spells you can actually cast per day. And thank god for that or people with 100 lore would have access to 10 greater ruins per rest..

On the topic of pnp spells though, i'm also in favor of using as few pnp spells as possible and when used, keep to low power spells that instead can help give you information about an event. Like Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, OR if you want to be properly fancy.. do a teleportation circle rather than using your portal wand. Or for comic effect, have your spellcaster use prestidigitation to clean himself after a bloody battle. The awesomeness of pnp spells is all in the details and minor tasks :wink:

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SLS

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 11:41 AM

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Joined: 09 Feb 2010

Quote:

Thankfully nobody is EVER going to make the spellcraft requirement of Vengeful gaze of god. :roll:

How does anyone even make that check? It's like 419.

And the epic spell that I was thinking of was the one that auto raised you, as a means of RPing the whole no perma-death thing.

jimbono1

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 11:58 AM

Player

Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

Necromantic Singularlity ftw.

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Silent2001 wrote:

Jimbono1 is my favourite.

^totally not a lie or anything.

Gravemaskin

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 12:00 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

SLS wrote:

Quote:

Thankfully nobody is EVER going to make the spellcraft requirement of Vengeful gaze of god. :roll:

How does anyone even make that check? It's like 419.

And the epic spell that I was thinking of was the one that auto raised you, as a means of RPing the whole no perma-death thing.

This one.
And it'd likely not be approved because it returns you back to full hp after 1 minute of death.. IF it did it in another location, sending you there or somesuch it'd still be overpowered and likely never approved because it'd be means to completely avoid IC consequences after a lost duel or fight.

I've concidered the spell myself a few times and the reasons I listed above is why I have never tried to push for it or requested it.

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SLS

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 12:24 PM

Player

Joined: 09 Feb 2010

That's the one.

I don't really see how it can be overpowered tho, when there's no perma-death to begin with. That is pretty much what happens anyways in most cases here right?
I guess you do have a point about ignoring the IC consequences, but Epic Spells don't exactly come easily to begin with. Gaining the "ability" to simply dismiss the IC consequence of dying would come as a result of time time and RP put in before hand.
I honestly doubt every single spellcaster could pull it off in the first place.

Kudark

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 12:27 PM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon

There is perma-death, but it is up to the individual to decide on that for their own character.

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SLS

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 12:31 PM

Player

Joined: 09 Feb 2010

Well yeah, kinda the same thing in the end tho.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 13:28 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

I forget how you get spellcraft rolls that high in PnP, but a friend who DM's PnP games I know allows his casters to contribute rolls to other casters, if they have the seeds to cast the spell, but not the actual spell.

Now that's certainly not the normal protocol I'm sure, but I imagine that could be done anyone ever really needed to cast Vengeful Gaze in a plot or something. Or, the DM overseeing could just call what they think the DC would be. Or not. The spell is pretty much a boss killer, and as long as you have someone smart enough and willing to die, well congratulations, you've achieved the Power Ranger's Megazord. No more plot or fun for you.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 14:11 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

What the hell is a Seed anyway? I've done some lore checking and i only find how you 'use' the seed, But not what it is

SLS

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 14:13 PM

Player

Joined: 09 Feb 2010

Mmm, kinda like a Mother Cyst I guess.

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 14:14 PM

Player

Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

That makes even less sense :shock:

SLS

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 14:20 PM

Player

Joined: 09 Feb 2010

Well I don't mean that it is something that's residing in your body, it is the core of the spell that's being developed and cast. Kind of like how all Cysts stems from a Mother Cyst.
The effects of the Epic Spells come from the Seed itself, the spell is just the casting process and it takes it's effects from the Seed. The effects in question is based off the Seed, the Spellcraft DC and so on.

Maybe think of it as a small contained aspect of the Weave? I dunno.

Gravemaskin

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 16:01 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

The seeds aren't like the mother cyst. The seeds are PART of the spell you are researching. They are more like partial spellscrolls than seeds. Imagine a wizard developing an epic spell. The spell seeds are indiviual "focii" that make up the core of the spell based on the nature it has and so on.. Example.. Animus Blizzard uses the spell seeds Energy and Animate Dead.

Contingent Ressurection uses the spell seed life, which again makes sense. Theoretically when developing a spell, let's say one that both heals you and damages your enemy. The seeds Energy and Heal could make up the core for it.

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Dwagin

Posted: Fri, Apr 15 2011, 16:10 PM

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Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

Seeds are sort of.. a game mechanic construct to explain portions of research of a spell or just to formulate how it comes together.. Its like the various trails of research to my understanding. You take bits and pieces from here and there of things which exist, and find a way to put the equation/ritual together, the 'seeds' blossom into the final product as it were.

By contributing spell slots you can reduce the SC DC, for example. even the most powerful one such as Vengeful Gaze of God, can be done with enough epic level casters contributing a spell slot to the casting.

Besides.. who needs vengeful gaze ..it only maxes out at 1830 dmg.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

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