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Dark Immolation
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 Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 5:58 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Oh Opustus and your ranty rantiness.  _________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 7:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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 <3 _________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Glyph
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 16:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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I re-jiggered my build because I just now found out crippling strike doesn't work on ranged weapons >_> and I now have room for either epic skill focus or a different rogue feat.
my question is firstly if I go with ESF do I grab hide, or move silent? (or open lock even..)
or, do I grab the haste feat?
oppourtunist is nigh useless to me, spring attack. and epic reputation, just no.
ed: nwn wiki leads me to believe hide would be beneficial because of the whole spot ticks more thing..
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 19:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Glyph. The whole build please... Ain't possible to help you with fragments of the full picture 
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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dayfer
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 19:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Location: England
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dayfer wrote: righty-o, well I'm good for the distribution of classes, 15 sorc/7 barb/10 RDD
As for the starting stats... Well I'm not gunna THAT much cha. str and con are a must but someone mentioned dex, just wondering what for, I mean is there any barb skills that use it? I've never played one so... since this got buried...
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 20:09 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Decent dex is so you can fill out medium armor. You don't need a lot of it, say you have base 12, get +4 from Cats, you only need +2 more from an item to get +4 bonus to max out Chain Shirt. Or, if you don't particularly care about AC(Though I suggest you do, as even with a mage, you're going twohander), you can use Chainmail to use base 5 armor and then get max of +2 AC from dex. So again, a little goes a long way and it's relatively easy with a spellsword if you plan. No Barb abilities use DEX it's just so you can get the most out of medium armor. If you fill it out, you're only missing 1 AC than if you were wearing a full plate with +2 dex mod, which is nothing when you consider it's saving you a feat and you've mage levels.
And I suggest start with more CHA than STR early on. STR matters less at lower levels(both in terms of damage and hitting), and you'd hate for you not to be able to use your spells because you're waiting on investing more in CHA. Of couse, take as little or as much as you want. You're going for a self-buffer, so it doesn't particularly matter how much you have beyond your RP and what you need to cast lv 6 spells(if you're going 15).
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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dayfer
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 20:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Location: England
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Yeah, I'm planning to wear chainmail, I guess I'll start out with 14 str, 12 dex, 15 con, 8 wis, 10 int, and 16 cha. Sounds good right?
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Sounds good.
14Based DEX = +2Modifier.
Then add +3DEX from monk boots and +5From cats' grace maxed = +8 Total. That's +4Modifier.
Honestly, you only need 10DEX
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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dayfer
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 20:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Location: England
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Hmm, I 'spose I could go 10 dex and 15 str instead then.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 20:52 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Hmmm. I'd still suggest going for chain shirt over mail, but it's not like you can't change it up whenever. It's just that most of the fully -asf medium armor is Chain Shirt. There is a Chainmail that has partial -asf(10%), but it's kinda a thing to get your hands on, if you haven't got connections. But again, you'll be able out which works for you and even change it around any time in game with 12 dex pretty easily. Early on, you're going to be buffing in a robe or something then switching to your armor anyway.
And yeah, you can get by with 10, you're just looking at getting 8 dex somehow, which isn't hard by a long shot, I just prefer keeping most of your stat-slots open for your casting stat, that way you rest and wake up with the maximum number of spells. Svensk is correct, however, it's completely doable with 10 as well.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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dayfer
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Posted: Wed, Apr 06 2011, 21:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Location: England
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hmm, by the sounds of things, chain shirt is the better option, I guess I'd then go 12 dex and 14 str, but still go with monk boots and cats grace. Chain shirt makes moe IC sense realy as well. At the beginning I'd probably go with chainmail, and a robe so I can buff then have the armour. 'course when I get my hands on 0% chain shirt I'll just use that.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 3:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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So I am considering making a ranger type character. Good guy, unsure of the race yet (though thinking human or elven), dual wielder, and sort of a scout/fighter/defender. I do not have an idea fleshed out yet, unfortunately, but that's the basic concept at least.
I was thinking of Ranger/Fighter/Harper Scout. Not sure on good spreads for Rangers (or good classes to go with it), so my first thought was Ranger 21/Fighter 4/HS 5 (for Weapon Spec) or Ranger 19/Fighter 6/HS 5 (for Epic Weapon Spec).
I am, of course, unsure of the good stopping points for Ranger and HS (though my initial thought was at least 20 Ranger and full HS).
A few questions/concerns first:
1) Does the HS Favored Enemy stack with the Ranger one?
2) Feat selection fails me a bit, new to this class attempt.
3) Weaponry ideas would be nice, considering longsword/shortsword combo (I don't usually ever dual wield).
All I really have so far is (human):
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Ranger(1): Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Favored Enemy I, {Dual Wield}
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3)
04: Ranger(4)
05: Ranger(5): Favored Enemy II
06: Ranger(6)
07: Ranger(7)
08: Ranger(8)
09: Ranger(9): Alertness, {Improved Two-Weapon Fighting}
10: Ranger(10): Favored Enemy III
11: Ranger(11)
12: Ranger(12): Iron Will
13: Ranger(13)
14: Ranger(14)
15: Ranger(15): Improved Critical: Longsword, Favored Enemy IV
16: Harper Scout(1): Favored Enemy V
17: Harper Scout(2)
18: Harper Scout(3)
19: Harper Scout(4)
20: Harper Scout(5): Favored Enemy VI
21: Fighter(1): Armor Skin
22: Fighter(2)
23: Fighter(3)
24: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Longsword
25: Ranger(16)
26: Ranger(17)
27: Ranger(18)
28: Ranger(19)
29: Ranger(20)
30: Ranger(21): Bane of Enemies
It's terrible, I'm sure haha
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 3:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Don't go Dexterity. Go Strength. And you can't Finesse a longsword either way.
_________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 3:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Ffff- see, I knew something didn't seem right off the bat. I kinda threw Finesse in at the end, hah.
I was thinking DEX because of the use of lighter armors. Though, there is always Cat's Grace after all. Is Maximize Spell something to take with a Ranger? Or not really worth it?
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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maglorine
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 4:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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What are you maximizing? You only get 4 spell levels and a maximized spell takes a slot 3 levels higher than normal so you could only maximize a first level spell. Not sure what you are driving at.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 4:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Ahh <-- scream at my own neglect of information
My fault... used to a wizard's spell slots haha. Nevermind that
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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MaliciousSwine
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 5:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: California, USA
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Hello everyone. I am anticipating having NWN reinstalled pretty soon so I was trying to think of what kind of character I was going to make, and I decided that I like Tempus a lot and I like the play style of high AC monks more than strength based weaponmaster melee types, so I landed on the idea of monk/rogue/CoT or monk/WM/CoT (if even possible?)
So basically I'm thinking the guy is going to be a pretty non-action oriented character, due mostly to being a dex based fighter type with low damage when his attacks hit.
Firstly I have a question that I have attempted to research independently and didn't find the answer to after half an hour, do CoTs when played as Divine Champions have to use their deity's weapon of choice? Or is that only clerics? Obviously a monk using a longsword is going to be a moot point so I would choose a different third class rather than CoT if this is the case.
_________________
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 6:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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PaladinOfSune wrote: Don't go Dexterity. Go Strength. And you can't Finesse a longsword either way. Nothing wrong with DEX, though then you'd be better off wielding a pair of shortswords or axes or any of the small-size category. They should be the same so you can benefit from your weapon feats. DEX functions well with Ranger because your damage output isn't too drastically shaped by your STR, and besides, DEX makes sneaking a noteworthy tactic in your book of tricks, not to forget the handiness of a bow. Nothing wrong with the layout either, though it'd be smarter to go full-BAB classes only for pre-epic, so that's either Ranger19/Fighter1 or Ranger20 the way I see it. You get EWS with only 4 Fighter levels, because you take EWF on an earlier level, then grab both WS and EWS on the 4th Fighter level. You've got 7, 8, or 9 feats depending on which race and pre-epic spread you'll go with, but the must-haves are Weapon Finesse, WF, Imp Crit, Iron Will, Alertness, KD, Blindfight, IKD (if you have INT 13+), everything else is under your own consideration. Extend spell can be handy, though I've never taken it on my rangers, because it's really not mandatory at all. And yes, HS Favoured Enemy stacks with the Ranger one. They're mechanically the same thing. Don't mind Suney, btw, he's a sillydilly at times. Khaunwalksthisearth, eh, I don't know about the weapon thing, but Rogue16/Monk10/CoT4, Monk16/Rogue10/CoT4 and Rogue19/Monk6/CoT5 sound good, depending whether you'll go barehand or not. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 13:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Delightful! Thank you for the insight as well, Opus.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 13:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Also, here's the update with stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 15 (22)
CON: 10
WIS: 16
INT: 14
CHA: 10
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Ranger(1): Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Favored Enemy I, {Dual Wield}
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3): Knockdown
04: Ranger(4): DEX+1, (DEX=16)
05: Ranger(5): Favored Enemy II
06: Ranger(6)
07: Ranger(7)
08: Ranger(8): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
09: Ranger(9): Improved Critical: Shortsword, {Improved Two-Weapon Fighting}
10: Ranger(10): Favored Enemy III
11: Ranger(11)
12: Ranger(12): DEX+1, Improved Knockdown, (DEX=18)
13: Ranger(13)
14: Ranger(14)
15: Ranger(15): Alertness, Favored Enemy IV
16: Ranger(16): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
17: Ranger(17)
18: Ranger(18): Iron Will
19: Ranger(19)
20: Ranger(20): DEX+1, Favored Enemy V, (DEX=20)
21: Fighter(1): Blind Fight, Epic Weapon Focus: Shortsword
22: Fighter(2): Armor Skin
23: Fighter(3)
24: Fighter(4): DEX+1, Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, Epic Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, (DEX=21)
25: Harper Scout(1): Favored Enemy VI
26: Harper Scout(2)
27: Harper Scout(3)
28: Harper Scout(4): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
29: Harper Scout(5): Favored Enemy VII
30: Ranger(21): Bane of Enemies
Was going for 16 DEX and WIS starting, but bumped DEX a bit for more INT so IKD could be taken.
THough, is 16 WIS really important? I know it's an extra 1-3 spell slot, but that's it I think?
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 13:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Dont need it. 14 Int is just enough.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 14:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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I'm curious about where your level 6 feat disappeared. Handily enough it should free up an epic feat for you. If you want that many FEs that's fine, but you can also get a variety of other feats with your HS bonus feats. Not saying you should, just saying. Drop WIS to 16, bump STR up to 14. I'd personally screw CHA and reduce it to 8 to get the initial DEX of 16 and bump that up with a Great DEX leaving me with the final DEX of 24, but hey-ho, that's completely your decision. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Glyph
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 14:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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Khaunwalksthisearth wrote: Hello everyone. I am anticipating having NWN reinstalled pretty soon so I was trying to think of what kind of character I was going to make, and I decided that I like Tempus a lot and I like the play style of high AC monks more than strength based weaponmaster melee types, so I landed on the idea of monk/rogue/CoT or monk/WM/CoT (if even possible?)
So basically I'm thinking the guy is going to be a pretty non-action oriented character, due mostly to being a dex based fighter type with low damage when his attacks hit. I know this is the build thread and all but tempus and rogue arn't entirely compatible, nor is non-action to an extent. still monk/wm/cot could work nice. I would explains why but is not lore thread and don't want to clutter the place. see amia wiki.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 16:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Uncle-Opustus wrote: I'm curious about where your level 6 feat disappeared. Handily enough it should free up an epic feat for you. If you want that many FEs that's fine, but you can also get a variety of other feats with your HS bonus feats. Not saying you should, just saying. Drop WIS to 16, bump STR up to 14. I'd personally screw CHA and reduce it to 8 to get the initial DEX of 16 and bump that up with a Great DEX leaving me with the final DEX of 24, but hey-ho, that's completely your decision. Good points. But... drop WIS to 16? Do you mean 14? I did move some things around in the build to facilitate better leveling and stuff, so that's probabaly why. I just shoved Favored Enemy into all the HS slots on the fly, I need to look into the extra feats a bit more haha
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 16:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Yus, 14 of course. Sorry.
_________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Aha silly Opus trying to trick me
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Uncle-Opustus wrote: And yes, HS Favoured Enemy stacks with the Ranger one. They're mechanically the same thing. Don't mind Suney, btw, he's a sillydilly at times. I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. I never mentioned HS at all! As for Strength and Dexterity Rangers, it's not that Dexterity is bad, it's the fact there is nothing you gain in return that a Strength version cannot do better. A Strength version has better damage, can go for Dev Crit, can cornersneak just fine (thanks to ranger buffs) and has just as much AC as the Dexterity version. Meanwhile, a Dexterity can... use bows better? Rangers are shitty with bows either way, better off using Throwing Axes. Essentially, being an epic Dexterity ranger begs the question "...why didn't you just go Rogue, stupid?" It's not like you're gaining Epic Dodge out of the deal. _________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Now you made me sad, Sune. I made a dex ranger! 
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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A Dexterity ranger you wanted to rebuild to a Strength WM because you realised Dex rangers are a bit pointless?  _________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Fuck off.  That's below the belt.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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I was just re-enforcing my argument on Opustus, for calling me silly.  _________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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D:
Well... be that as it may, STR might be a good idea, perhaps. I still need to get around to making a straight Rogue char, too hahah
Anyways! Moar input please =D
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 17:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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I'll PM you something you can work off.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 18:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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PaladinOfSune wrote: As for Strength and Dexterity Rangers, it's not that Dexterity is bad, it's the fact there is nothing you gain in return that a Strength version cannot do better. A Strength version has better damage, can go for Dev Crit, can cornersneak just fine (thanks to ranger buffs) and has just as much AC as the Dexterity version. Actually, a DEX Ranger can sneak better and with a tiny effort just as well as the best sneakers around, it does have a higher AC (+4-5 to be exact although that's debatable because of the danger of getting flat-footed, but that means death either way), of course throwing axes are better but the point stands, and don't forget about +2 powers freed by not having to wear those silly gloves. It's only a loss of 7 damage for a huge variety of other things, and yes, you miss on Epic Dodge and it's a bummer, but it's not like it'd cripple the build. After playing tonnes of rangers I couldn't honestly claim either better than the other, both have their pros and cons. I'm personally attracted to a humungous damage output, but that doesn't make it better. If you prefer the image of a bendy forestdweller over some clumsy grunt wearing a heavy armour while rambling through the forest, you should go with the bendy one. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 18:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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My assumption was that you're wearing something like leather. Alternatively, you can off-hand the TWF/Ambidexterity dagger or axe. I wouldn't wear those gloves myself.
It isn't just the raw damage and AC though - going Strength also means you have access to Devestating Critical which uses up the multitude of spare feats a ranger has nicely, and whether you are Dexterity or Strength, you're still going to suck as a tank thanks to the lack of Epic Dodge. I'd rather pay up a few points of AC in the knowledge the enemy's going to fall a whole lot quicker (especially with Dev Crit) so the fewer AC won't matter. Ultimately, it's your animal companion who is going to be taken the brunt of blows anyway.
Either way, like I said, Dexterity rangers aren't bad. It's just the Strength ranger is better.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 18:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Well that's unexpectedly awesome =D
I just like whoring input and dataz on builds cause I like to have that info here so it can help others too ^_^
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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MaliciousSwine
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 18:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: California, USA
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Glyph wrote: Khaunwalksthisearth wrote: I know this is the build thread and all but tempus and rogue arn't entirely compatible, nor is non-action to an extent. still monk/wm/cot could work nice. I would explains why but is not lore thread and don't want to clutter the place. see amia wiki. Ok thanks for the advice. It might make more sense for a Champion of Tempus to go full in your face strength WM and neglect the AC a bit, but I'll mess around with a variety of builds and see what I can come up with.
_________________
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 18:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Tempus and Rogue are entirely compatible. Don't listen to that.
Non-action? Yeah, less fitting for a Tempus follower.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 19:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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PaladinOfSune wrote: Either way, like I said, Dexterity rangers aren't bad. It's just the Strength ranger is better. In many cases, I'd be inclined to disagree. Ranger is way too complex a class to be generalised like that, and though a generalisation is often useful, I don't see it validating for much here. _________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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MaliciousSwine
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 19:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: California, USA
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PaladinOfSune wrote: Tempus and Rogue are entirely compatible. Don't listen to that.
Non-action? Yeah, less fitting for a Tempus follower. Right that was what I was getting from the above post for the most part. When I say non action I just mean he's probably going to have to hunt in a party at the endgame zones for lack of power in the build.
_________________
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 19:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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I haven't seen a dex based ranger that wouldn't have been better served by being a dex based rogue, generally. Quote: When I say non action I just mean he's probably going to have to hunt in a party at the endgame zones for lack of power in the build. Um... like pretty much any non caster, you mean?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MaliciousSwine
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 19:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Location: California, USA
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Quote: Um... like pretty much any non caster, you mean? I guess so. But taking monk levels in general shifts the character from tank/DPS role to support doesn't it?
_________________
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.
Last edited by MaliciousSwine on Thu, Apr 07 2011, 19:15 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Apr 07 2011, 19:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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TormakSaber wrote: I haven't seen a dex based ranger that wouldn't have been better served by being a dex based rogue, generally. ^^ _________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 0:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Alright. So. Here are the two Ranger/Fighter/HS builds I came up with (surprisingly close to my original one ). One is STR the other DEX. Abilities
STR: 18 (26)
DEX: 10
CON: 10
WIS: 14
INT: 12
CHA: 8
Feats
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Ranger(1): Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Favored Enemy I, {Dual Wield}
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3): Cleave
04: Ranger(4): STR+1, (STR=19)
05: Ranger(5): Favored Enemy II
06: Ranger(6): Great Cleave
07: Ranger(7)
08: Ranger(8): STR+1, (STR=20)
09: Ranger(9): Improved Critical: Longsword, {Improved Two-Weapon Fighting}
10: Ranger(10): Favored Enemy III
11: Ranger(11)
12: Ranger(12): STR+1, Iron Will, (STR=21)
13: Ranger(13)
14: Ranger(14)
15: Ranger(15): Blind Fight, Favored Enemy IV
16: Ranger(16): STR+1, (STR=22)
17: Ranger(17)
18: Ranger(18): Alertness
19: Ranger(19)
20: Ranger(20): STR+1, Favored Enemy V, (STR=23)
21: Fighter(1): Great Strength I, Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword, (STR=24)
22: Fighter(2): Armor Skin
23: Fighter(3)
24: Fighter(4): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Longsword, Epic Weapon Specialization: Longsword, (STR=25)
25: Harper Scout(1): Epic Will
26: Harper Scout(2)
27: Harper Scout(3): Overwhelming Critical: Longsword
28: Harper Scout(4): STR+1, (STR=26)
29: Harper Scout(5): Epic Skill Focus: Spot
30: Ranger(21): Devastating Critical: Longsword
Skills
Discipline 33(41), Hide 33(33), Lore 8(14), Move Silently 33(33), Persuade 8(7), Search 4(5), Spot 33(47), Tumble 30(30)Abilities
STR: 10
DEX: 17 (24)
CON: 10
WIS: 14
INT: 13
CHA: 10
Feats
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Ranger(1): Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Favored Enemy I, {Dual Wield}
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3): Knockdown
04: Ranger(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
05: Ranger(5): Favored Enemy II
06: Ranger(6): Dodge
07: Ranger(7)
08: Ranger(8): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Ranger(9): Improved Critical: Shortsword, {Improved Two-Weapon Fighting}
10: Ranger(10): Favored Enemy III
11: Ranger(11)
12: Ranger(12): DEX+1, Iron Will, (DEX=20)
13: Ranger(13)
14: Ranger(14)
15: Ranger(15): Alertness, Favored Enemy IV
16: Ranger(16): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Ranger(17)
18: Ranger(18): Improved Knockdown
19: Ranger(19)
20: Ranger(20): DEX+1, Favored Enemy V, (DEX=22)
21: Fighter(1): Blind Fight, Epic Weapon Focus: Shortsword
22: Fighter(2): Armor Skin
23: Fighter(3)
24: Fighter(4): DEX+1, Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, Epic Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, (DEX=23)
25: Harper Scout(1): Epic Will
26: Harper Scout(2)
27: Harper Scout(3): Epic Prowess
28: Harper Scout(4): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Harper Scout(5): Epic Skill Focus: Spot
30: Ranger(21): Bane of Enemies
Skills
Discipline 33(33), Hide 33(40), Lore 8(14), Move Silently 33(40), Persuade 8(8), Search 4(5), Spot 33(47), Tumble 30(37)Dodge is in the DEX build because there was one feat slot I just couldn't find something for. I was debating Cleave, but since I took IKD I couldn't get the Power Attack prereq so I just went with something semi-useful (in my eyes). Unless that's horribly wrong, hah.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 0:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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For the first build, I'd recommend another Favoured Enemy or Epic Skill Focus: Discipline over Epic Will. You also really, really really want Bane of Enemies on that build or there's not much point in going the whole 21 ranger levels for it. Armor Skin seems the most likely to be dropped.
I'm tempted to suggest a short sword or handaxe over longsword, but you get so much AB with that build it shouldn't matter too much.
The second build, take Blind-Fight instead of Dodge. You've now freed up an epic feat. Also, use Harper Scout levels to take Great DEX.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Bob
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 1:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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I kinda think both dex and str rangers have their uses. With the dex based one better defensively.
Both get approximately 50 to 51 long term ab which is considered the higher end of the scale(this is also where a dex based ranger excels over a rogue with epic dodge aside from its epic animal companion)
And where the str based ranger deals more damage or might be able to net Dev Crit, the dex based ranger gets better utility skills like ESF disc or spot, better AC, better ab with a ranged weapon, better hide/ms and better reflex - approximately 13 more.
It's more well rounded in my opinion. Not saying which is better as they have their uses but I don't think a str based one is strictly better.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 2:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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PaladinOfSune wrote: For the first build, I'd recommend another Favoured Enemy or Epic Skill Focus: Discipline over Epic Will. You also really, really really want Bane of Enemies on that build or there's not much point in going the whole 21 ranger levels for it. Armor Skin seems the most likely to be dropped.
I'm tempted to suggest a short sword or handaxe over longsword, but you get so much AB with that build it shouldn't matter too much.
The second build, take Blind-Fight instead of Dodge. You've now freed up an epic feat. Also, use Harper Scout levels to take Great DEX. Shoot. I forgot about Bane cause of the HS level additions. Hmmm dunno if I can get it in there :/ Also I was thinking longsword/shortsword combo originally... but I think sticking with weapons under the same WF is best, ya. As for the DEX build advice, I had not realized I crammed Blind Fight into epic levels XD
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 2:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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I don't agree on the utility skills part, considering a Strength ranger will have higher Discipline without the epic feat owing to the fact it's... well, Strength, and there's nothing preventing the Strength ranger from picking up those two feats anyways. The typical 25 Ranger/4 Fighter/1 Rogue build has enough space for both Devastating Critical and Epic Skill Focus: Spot easily. Ultimately, Dexterity rangers always seem to be outclassed by the equivalent Dexterity rogue. Like was mentioned, their AB is a far bit higher, but... that's really it. Losing out on Epic Dodge is a huge thing, and if the ranger doesn't even have Uncanny Dodge then they might as well be going around naked. Naivatkal wrote: Shoot. I forgot about Bane cause of the HS level additions. Hmmm dunno if I can get it in there :/ Just drop Armor Skin, like I said. It's not a great thing to drop, but it's the least important there. _________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Bob
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 4:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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I probably had not phrased the utility part well. Assuming the same build and therefore the same number of feats, 2 less epic feats taken for Dev crit is 2 extra epic feats to be used elsewhere for the dex ranger is what I meant.
With regards to disc bonus from str vs reflex bonus from dex,
The 10 point disc advantage is made up for from 2 powers. The 10- 13 point diff in reflex however, is the equivalent of 3-4 powers.
More importantly however, with 11 base reflex, a str based ranger has alot of issues dealing with any DC that is reflex based.
Also, the bonus 5-7 AC is a big advantage the dex ranger has over the str based one. That's one more attack a round that's going to whiff.
The trade off is simply 10-12 dmg.
Just as there isnt much of an argument whether sword and broad is better compared to two handering, the same logic holds true here IMHO. 5-7AC > 10-12 dmg.
Especially when as a ranger you're going to be doing 40dmg on avg against your favored enemies already.
While I do agree rog based Dexers are great as the short fall in dmg is made up for with sneaks along with the perk of Epic dodge, i kind of feel the dex based ranger is rather underrated.
Compared against the dex based epic dodging rogue, it has an extra 4-7 more ab. PvM, it does better due to it's epic companion and even in PvP the thing is useful.
But that's beside the point mostly as whether they are better, on par or worse off then based rogs is another debate altogether; just as one can argue str based paladins and clerics are stronger then the str based rangers.
I guess my post was to mostly share my view that I believe dex based rangers aren't inferior to str based ones.
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Zifon
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Posted: Fri, Apr 08 2011, 13:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Denmark
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Whats the ecl for orog and ogrillion again?, I know at least one of them were changed a while back.
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