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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 13:47 PM 

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I know you were talking about EMD. But people keep clinging onto the idea that Conjuration Focus actually boosts your normal summons and other summons. I need to root this misconception out, Once and for all!

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 13:48 PM 

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Really? I hadn't seen anyone mention that before.
I can at least say I knew that! :D

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Glyph
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 13:51 PM 

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Quote:
The options you have:
Outsider (Epic Conjuration Extends, Alignment Based Summon)
Construct (Epic Transmutation Extends)
Elemental (Epic Evocation Extends)
Magical Beast (Epic Conjuration Extends)
Undead (Epic Necromancy Extends)


again, does not boost summons, buffs, or transformations. only offencive spells, and dragon in case of conjure, and the other variants in the case of transmutation etc.

Quote:
note focuses only effect the dc's on spells that hit things, not buffs summons or transformations.


I literally just said that dude...

incase I confused you guys, i'm specifically talking about epic mummy dust, and the dragon. no other summons. none.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 13:53 PM 

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If we're gonna be nit-picky, you actually wrote "Focuses" Which is a quite wide spectrum and open for enormous amounts of misconceptions. Hence my response. 8)

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:04 PM 

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Four spell focuses is an utter waste. Just because you have a lot of feats doesn't mean you should waste them!

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:06 PM 

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Think of ze arrr peeee!

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:08 PM 

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That's why I went with just two hah

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:09 PM 

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On the RP side, I'd find being a specialist in one or two schools far more interesting. There's fundamental differences between each school and how the mage treats the world according to these specialisations.

Being an expert in four schools wouldn't allow that as well. Too many cooks spoil the broth, after all.

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:10 PM 

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Lies.
I can be good at history, Math, Gymnastics -and- painting... A wizard can, too! (Synonyms for Spell schools ofc)

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:34 PM 

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I didn't say they can't, I said I'd find it less interesting.

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Dramatic_Prince
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 15:51 PM 

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Real specialists choose a specialist school at creation and screw themselves out of an opposing school(randomly defined by bioware).

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 16:00 PM 

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Just to make something clear on my character:
He's not a specialist. Korvin wouldn't limit himself from some magic schools, except maybe necromancy, but the reason I say he 'specializes' in Evocation is because he is a natural with it. Fire spells are his specialty as well, and he just naturally takes a shine to the Evocation school. That's why I had him take Spell Focus: Evocation and Arcane Defence: Evocation at first level, to mechanically simulate that for RP reasons.

Just sayin lol

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 16:02 PM 

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Dramatic_Prince wrote:
Real specialists choose a specialist school at creation and screw themselves out of an opposing school(randomly defined by bioware).


Yes. This. This. This. This. This. Did I say this? This. This. This

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 16:17 PM 

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Dramatic_Prince wrote:
Real specialists choose a specialist school at creation and screw themselves out of an opposing school(randomly defined by bioware).

Iirc, they ran it off of the same 2.5 listings they used in the sagas of Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate. It is less 'random' and more 'antiquated.' Otherwise, I wonder what count that brings the pyromancer to... (not a complaint in the slightest as I play one myself!)

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Glyph
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 30 2011, 16:19 PM 

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Quote:
abjuration, evocation, and necromancy schools are not listed as opposition for any other schools. Therefore, spells in these three schools can be used by any wizard, regardless of specialization.


bonuses are spell slots and +2 to spellcraft checks against the school you know well, minuses are -5 to the opposing school, and lack of that school entirely, including scrolls, not including cantrips.

I personally just RP a great interest usually in conjuration cause i'm a sucker for summoning, rather than snap off a limb, wizards in particular need to be variable, its what makes em seperate from sorcs who lack variety in favour of phenominal cosmic power, apparently, I still don't know how to build those.

ninja'd....yea, most people would go for opposing necromancy but, bioware frankly failed at the task and hated on illusion in favour or...well, see the quote.

double nin...they should have used the DMG 8) instead of bodge jobbing it for the game. that said can you imagine a non-evocation wizard?? I can, but in pnp not nwn...

ed: i'd try it but I am pretty sure most of the time would be spent either invisible or dead.


 
      
Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 12:58 PM 



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Looking for advice on a build question. I am currently running a C14/P3 of Lathander. By the end he is going to be C20. The question is whether I should go P9 or P5/F4. The Fighter levels would be taken so I could get Epic Weapon Specialization (with improved critical and Epic Weapon Focus in both possibilities). The question is, should I go for the fighter levels to get EWS or the Paladin levels for the extra +4 to saves (high enough CHA for the full +9 to saves at Paladin 9?

Not worried about RP purposes since either choice works for my character. Thanks for the advice.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:07 PM 

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Can you write out the entire build for us? Your directions are a little vague...

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Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:30 PM 



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I could, but I don't have it at work with me. But, in essence, he is currently a Cleric 13/Paladin 3. Has Great Cleave (thinking back, maybe not the best choice, but who cares), both Divines, Extra Turning. Has a CHA (buffed) of 32-34 (depending on Eagle's Spendor role) so he gets +11 or +12 from Divines. Been playing him as the first man on the field and the last off. He will break combat to heal a dying companion, but would rather hold off the horde while the rest of the group escapes.

The build choices are as follows (I'm starting from 17 because I am not interested in a self rebuild):

17 Cleric 14
18 Cleric 14 Improved Critical
19 Cleric 15
20 Fighter 1 Weapon Focus
21 Cleric 16 Epic Weapon Focus
22 Fighter 2 Armor Skin
23 Fighter 3
24 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization
25-28 Cleric 17-20 (feat to be decided)
29 Paladin

or

17 Cleric 14
18 Cleric 15 Weapon Focus
19 Cleric 16
20 Paladin 4
21 Cleric 17 Armor Skin
22 Cleric 18
23 Cleric 19
24 Cleric 20 EWF
25-29 Paladin 5-9 (he is Asamir, so stops at 29) (feat to be decided)

So you can see that the Fighter route gets me Improved Critical and EWS but sacrifices +4 to all saves. I'm trying to decide which is better for the character:

+4 to Universal Saves
or
+6 damage and improved critical.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:34 PM 

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Do you have Extend spell, Blind fight, and Maximize spell?

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Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:39 PM 



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No, No and No. I wish I could go back and take two of those three and give up the Cleave/Great Cleave route, but that would just be too much of a self-rebuild. I find at level 13 my buff spells are already lasting long enough so I'm not concerned about Extend Spell. Honestly, the only feat of those three I miss is Blind fight. I might replace Improved critical in both builds with Blind Fight (which is probably the right move).


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:45 PM 

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[ERROR] INTERNAL BRAIN MALFUNCTION.
[ERROR]
[ERROR]
[ERROR]
[ERROR] UNABLE TO PROCESS CLERICS WITHOUT MAX/EXTEND SPELL
[ERROR]
[ERROR]
...
...
[Rebooting]

___________________________________
I seriously suggest you de-level and grab Extend/Max/Blind if you're going the melee cleric route.

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Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:52 PM 



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LOL! I saw (and play) him as a combat cleric who lives to destroy evil and undead. That's why I focused so many feats on the turning and two devines (extra turning, power attack, divine might, divine strength). That's 4 out of 7 feats. Then I, admittedly, wasted two feats on Cleave and Great Cleave. Leaving 2 more feats. I took still spell (probably should have been silent spell) for spell book management. So I'm left with 1 pre-epic feat.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:54 PM 

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...At what levels did you take cleave/Great cleave?

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Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:55 PM 



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I will consider de-leveling. When I get home tonight I'll post the build I would use if I did de-level.

However, that still leaves my question about fighter vs. paladin open. Which is recommended? +6 damage and improved critical or +4 saves?


 
      
Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:56 PM 



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Very_Svensk wrote:
...At what levels did you take cleave/Great cleave?


I forget. I want to say I took cleave at 9 (pretty sure that is correct). So that means dropping 7 levels. UGH!


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 13:56 PM 

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From a pure mechanical perspective - 6Damage. You can always slot up extra saves on your gear, Fighter levels give you plenty of extra feats, too.

But on a RP Perspective i'd take Paladin - That'll make a hell-o-va Undead fighter. Not only paladin, but Cleric/paladin! Eat that, Undead!

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Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 14:04 PM 



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Very_Svensk wrote:
From a pure mechanical perspective - 6Damage. You can always slot up extra saves on your gear, Fighter levels give you plenty of extra feats, too.

But on a RP Perspective i'd take Paladin - That'll make a hell-o-va Undead fighter. Not only paladin, but Cleric/paladin! Eat that, Undead!


I think you are right. Turn undead would be 4 higher with paladin. Also, lay on hands would be seriously increased. Instead of doing 60 points of healing, it would be 108. That's close to a Heal for low HP builds. That fits with my character concept better than getting 6 extra damage and improved critical.

Thanks for the input. I will post the build tonight and hope you can look at it to give me your advice. I may just de-level and spend Saturday getting back to where he is now.


 
      
Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 14:18 PM 



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Since we are on the topic, I have a question about turn undead (since this is my first turn character). I read the information on the wiki and just want to confirm that I understand it. Assume I am a Cleric 20/Paladin 9 with Sun domain and Charisma of 34. Is my math correct?

Total Hit Dice turned: 2d6 + 12 (CHA) + (20 (cleric) + (9-2)(paladin)) + 1d6 (sun domain) => average of 49
Highest Level turned check: 1d20 + 12 (CHA) + 1d4 (sun domain) => average of 24 (which means add +4 to highest level turned)
Highest Level turned: 20 (cleric) + (9-2) (paladin) + 4 = 31

So at level 29 he can turn a level 31 undead (and a minor of level 18) for 32 rounds (5+20+7).

If that's all correct, then that is a long time to chip away at a high powered lich that is running in terror from my character.


 
      
Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 17:38 PM 



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Okay, here is the modified Cleric/Paladin build (with some open feats). This is a cleric of Lathander who wants to rid the world of the undead. He is first and foremost a warrior, who would rather fight a hoard to allow his friends to flee than spend the battle running around healing everyone. However, he will break combat to heal a companion that is in dire need.

Asamir (Human base)
Sun and Strength Domains

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 18 (22)
CHA 18 (20)

1- C(1) Extra Turning, Power Attack
2- C(2)
3- C(3) Divine Might
4- P(1) CHA+1 (19)
5- P(2)
6- P(3) Divine Shield
7- C(4)
8- C(5) CHA+1 (20)
9- C(6) Silent Spell
10- C(7)
11- C(8)
12- C(9) Maximize Spell, WIS+1(19)
13- C(10)
14- C(11)
15- C(12) Blind Fight
16- C(13) WIS+1(20)
17- C(14)
18- C(15) {OPEN FEAT}
19- P(4)
20- Cl(16) WIS+1(21)
21- Cl(17) Armor Skin

From 22-29, I'm not sure what level progression to use. Want to end with Cleric 20/Paladin 9 but the order doesn't much matter. Also, will take at least one more WIS+1 to make it 22. That leaves me with:
2 Epic Feats Open
1 Stat Boost Open

Once fully buffed, his AC will be 51-61 as follows:
10-11 Base AC (after Cat's Grace potion to bring Dexterity up to at least 10 and possibly 12)
12 Armor (Full Platemail plus Magical Vestment +5)
8 Shield (Tower Shield plus Magical Vestment +5)
5 Deflection (Shield of Faith)
11-20 Dodge (Divine Shield + possible Haste potion + possible Dodge equipment)
2 Armor Skin
3 Natural (Barkskin potion)

Didn't figure out AB, but he will have 4 attacks per round (which is the reason for taking the 4th Paladin level pre-epic).

Reasons for some choices
-I brought Charisma to 20 with the idea of then using items and spells to get it to 32. That will give me a +11 for 11 rounds to AC and Damage when needed through Divine Might and Divine Shield.

-Silent spell is purely for spell book maintenance (it's good to have extra slots for darkfire, greater magic weapon, and magical vestment when you are buffing a party of 6)

- Maximize spell mostly for 2nd level buff spells. This ensures +5 to Strength, Constitution, and Charisma. This means only needing +7 from equipment to max each to allowed buffing.

- I didn't take Extend Spell (even though there is a slot open) because I don't really notice many spells ending early. But I'm open to adding it.

Any advice is appreciated. However, please limit suggestions to Paladin and Cleric levels only as they fit the RP. Also, the only Necromancy spells this char will cast is: Death Ward, Undeath to Death, and Greater Restoration, so nothing that would rely on any other necro spell. Thanks for your advice.


 
      
hendrack
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 17:48 PM 

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My advice: Keep CHA at 18 and put those two points into WIS for spell DC. +10 divine/might shield is enough. You don't need silent spell to buff 6 ppl, neither is it your obligation to buff the whole party with all available cleric spells.

Get spell focus (instead of extra turning) and greater spell focus in evocation (implosion, sunbeam) or conjuration (mass heal, storm of vengeance) so your lots of cleric levels are worth more than buffing. Get extend spell instead of silent.

Mass heal with a good amount of concentration is a great tool for healing allies and at the same time hurting undead with a good spell DC, while still fighting on the frontline.

Though I am not sure if 20 CLs in cleric beat high epic undeads SR.


 
      
Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 17:54 PM 



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hendrack wrote:
My advice: Keep CHA at 18 and put those two points into WIS for spell DC. +10 divine/might shield is enough. You don't need silent spell to buff 6 ppl, neither is it your obligation to buff the whole party with all available cleric spells.

Get spell focus (instead of extra turning) and greater spell focus in evocation (implosion, sunbeam) or conjuration (mass heal, storm of vengeance) so your lots of cleric levels are worth more than buffing. Get extend spell instead of silent.

Mass heal with a good amount of concentration is a great tool for healing allies and at the same time hurting undead with a good spell DC, while still fighting on the frontline.

I like all of these suggestions but want to question just one ... the no Extra Turning. I am counting on using Divine Might and Shield often, sometimes together. That will burn through the Turn Undeads quickly. But I'm new to turning so any insight is appreciated.


 
      
hendrack
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 17:57 PM 

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I never took extra turning on my divine classes and used divine might/shield just fine. Just needs a bit of practice in getting the timing right.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 19:11 PM 

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You should get 21 Cleric levels, else your Divine favour will only be +4. It caps at +5 at level 21.

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Skipius
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 19:39 PM 



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Very_Svensk wrote:
You should get 21 Cleric levels, else your Divine favour will only be +4. It caps at +5 at level 21.

Really? According to the nwn wiki it hits +5 at level 15. And I don't see any changes in the Spells modifications for Amia. Am I missing something?


 
      
Zifon
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 19:56 PM 

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Yes, its Amia changed. Alot of things are and we used to have it all written down in the sidebar, sadly most were lost recently and not back yet, hopefully it will be back soon.


 
      
PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 20:01 PM 

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I suppose I'll do the spells next.

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 01 2011, 20:07 PM 

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may as well just remind you that Clerics Divine power do -not- provide an extra attack anymore.

Gs is changed to 5Rounds + Rounds/level? and you cannot drink potions/use items and cast spells inside the GS.

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oshizo2
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 02 2011, 22:05 PM 

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hey i have a question about the new asassin feats. what assasin level is required for murder?

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 02 2011, 22:27 PM 

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I don't think there is a level req on those. Sidebar says you get them all at Assassin 1

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oshizo2
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 02 2011, 22:45 PM 

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thanks i was miss reading it all of them work based on assasin levels per round. not assasin levels to qualify. so one assasin = one round of the widget usage. gud stuff.

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Jehran
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 02 2011, 22:51 PM 

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There are level requirements to the abilities.

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dayfer
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 02 2011, 22:53 PM 

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yeah you get the widget at lvl 1 and earn the abilities as you go, I THINK murder is lvl 18.


 
      
Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 02 2011, 23:17 PM 

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What? Sidebar says nothing about that D:

Though it makes sense, I did go 'wtf' when I saw the lack of level reqs hah

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Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming


 
      
Zifon
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 19:45 PM 

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If one were to create a melee fighter that didnt care about armor class, which choices spring to mind?
Its purely for monster fighting.
Theres maybe classes that deals out damage so fast they could survive? (wm's with twohanded weapons I guess).
Or 18 levels of dwarven defender.
Or maybe sneaky types monsters dont see before they start with their 12d6 sneak damage.
High constitution, max points in healing, a dozen of regeneration points on items and maybe vampiric regeneration would also aid I guess.
Vamp reg would maybe suggest two weap fighting
High damage more a huge axe/flail.
Btw: When it comes to twohanded weapons the bludgeon and piercing damage from a wonderforged heavy flail seems to be much more effective against many higher creatures than the usual greataxe/sword, or is it just me?

Any comments?


 
      
dayfer
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 19:51 PM 

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For a Greatsword weilding Barbarian Spell sword, would there be any point in taking Armour proficiency Heavy? in other words do Medium 0% arcane spell failure armour exist in Amia?


 
      
hendrack
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 19:52 PM 

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DwD with epic DR. Just want to tank or do damage? Both doesn't mix well without AC.

Quote:
do Medium 0% arcane spell failure armour exist in Amia?


Yes


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 20:03 PM 

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dayfer wrote:
For a Greatsword weilding Barbarian Spell sword, would there be any point in taking Armour proficiency Heavy? in other words do Medium 0% arcane spell failure armour exist in Amia?


Yes, there are plenty. Medium reduced spellfailure armor is the easiest the come by and most functional if you have even a pittance of Dexterity.

Having played a barb/sorc for numerous years, I can tell you medium armor is a lot easier to work with than the main -asf plate armor, or spending DC for a custom one. It also lets you stay true to your Barbarian roots. You're practically a Rage Mage, jumping around, slicing and blowing up enemies at your whim. You really wanna be doing all that in a big ol' tin can? :wink:

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dayfer
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 20:10 PM 

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Niiiiice! Thanks guys, I'll have him look around when/if I get him approved :D


 
      
Zifon
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 20:17 PM 

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hendrack wrote:
DwD with epic DR. Just want to tank or do damage? Both doesn't mix well without AC.

Well both actually. Was first thinking of dwd duergar but I can see I would be too much on my own in UD, so maybe a surfacer dwarf instead.

Dark Immolation wrote:
Yes, there are plenty medium reduced spellfailure armor .

Three I think...


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 04 2011, 20:20 PM 

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You can always do the Sturli, which goes fighter/DwD/WM to shore up your massive con with bonus crits for damage.

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