AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

My ability to parse the stats given on summons and whatnot is fairly limited, so the info on the site didn't help me. Doubly so if it's out of date, heh.

But yeah, alright. Thanks for that, folks! Will have to think about what I want to do. I think I'm leaning towards the rogue levels however. Might go crazy and throw in a skilldump class at the last level... but yeah, I'm sorted. Danke.

Got the idea of making a monk that got his eardrums pierced for being in the wrong place in the wrong time by suspicious folks, catching him eavesdropping as a child. A love for books since his younger years has changed to devotion to written lore. Set on defending libraries and the treasure that is knowledge, he travels the world and writes about what he encounters. Races, cultures and so on. Etc. etc..

Would this build work you think? I never made a monk before. He is a wanderer who only uses his walking staff as a weapon. Very proficient you might say, with that many WM levels. Got the idea of using staff from the Dark Desciple chronicles (Dragonlance).

Monk 11/Fighter 6/Weapon Master 13

Race: Mulan
Deity: Oghma - Children of the Passive Voice (perhaps)
Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Str: 16 - 22
Dex: 14 - 13
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 14 - 16
Cha: 8

AB: 45 (without buffs and +4 weapon)
AC: 52 (56 with haste - 59 with maxed dex)
HP: 308

Skills 193:
Spot 32
Tumble 30
Hide/MS 33
Discipline 33
Concentration 32

1 M - Feat: Dodge, Mobility
2 M
3 M - Feat: Weapon Focus: Staff
4 F - Feat: Expertise, Wis: 16
5 F - Feat: Spring Attack
6 F - Feat: Whirlwind Attack
7 F - Feat: Weapon Spec
8 M - Str: 17
9 WM - Feat: Improved Critical: Staff
10 WM
11 WM
12 WM - Feat: Toughness, Str: 18
13 WM - Increased Multiplier, +1 AB
14 WM
15 WM - Feat: Blind Fight, Ki Critical
16 M - Str: 19
17 M
18 M - Feat: Skill Focus: Spot
19 M
20 WM - Str: 20
21 M - Feat: Armor Skin
22 M
23 F
24 F - Feats: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Spec, Str: 21
25 WM
26 WM
27 WM - Feat: Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
28 WM - Str: 22
29 WM - Feat: Epic Prowess
30 M - Feat: Epic Skill Focus: Spot

Sure, why not. With Fighter8/Monk6/WM16 you'd have more reason to sod WIS, though, but I guess that works better for what you're after. My only piece of advice is that I'd trade Toughness for something else, like Blooded or Luck of Heroes, but that's your call. +2 initiative/Spot, or +1 Ref/Fort would be awfully handy for something semi-dexterous and spotty, or to someone with moderately high Reflex and Fort saves with Improved Evasion.

Also, quite frankly, Fighter12/Monk11/WM7 would get you 2 more feats you could use in +2 STR meaning +1 damage.

Didn't get much feedback on the crunchy wizard build I posted a couple pages back. Anyone? Am I ruining what could be a perfectly good wizard?

I'd prefer Wizzy29/Fighter1 with Epic Spell Focus myself. Uce has (had) a pure wizard variant of that. Truly something out of the ordinary and great fun.

Speaking of crazy multiclass monks, if I wanted to follow along with some ridiculous Dark Moon typish monk (which would leave me alternating monk and sorc levels to 30), would I simply be regretting it because everyone and their mom can chunk a Mord's Disjunction scroll at me then kill me with carrots or watermelons?

It's kind of painful how useful that PrC class is.

Last edited by The1Kobra on Mon, Mar 28 2011, 17:35 PM, edited 2 times in total.

I think if you want to make a sorc monk, the best methodologies are to either: 1: go lots of monk with a minimal sorc splash (9 at most) for the buffs, or to go heavy on sorc with fewer monk levels.

I worked out a build (human) for a sorc heavy monk. It's pretty strapped tight, tight on feats, skills, stats, and especially gear. You'll have 4 stats to max out, I don't think you'll be able to do that fully. Here's what I'd do:

Monk/Sorc build:
Human
6 Mnk, 23 Sorc, 1 Ranger
4/16 Pre-epic, 4/23/1 post-epic
Starting Stats:
8/15/12/12/12/16:
1: Spell Focus
1: Greater Spell focus
3: Finesse
6: Weapon Focus (Kama or unarmed, probably kama)
9: Extend Spell
12: Emp Spell
15: Max Spell
18: Blind Fight
21: Epic Prowess
24: Epic Spell Focus
27: Epic Spell Mage Armor
27*: Epic Spell (Summon)
30: Armor Skin
30*: Epic Weapon Focus
end stats:
8/16/10/12/14/22

Skills:
26*2(sorc)+7*4(ranger/mnk)+33*2(int/human bonus) = 146
33 Disc
30 Tumble
83 left, spend wisely.

AB(Optimal): 11+5+4+9+5(enh) + [10](tensers) = 34[44]: 44/41/38/35/44 OR 42/39/36/33/44/42 (dualling)
AC(Optimal, EMA): 10+2+6(tumblac)+9(dex)+6(wis)+1(mnk)+1(mage armor)+20(EMA)+5(boots) + 4(haste) = 64
DC(Optimal 9th): 10+9+6+13 = 37

I'd probably take the spell focus in necromancy, but whatever fits the character concept best would be preferable. With the current setup, you can be a reasonably reliable PvM character with high AC, buffs, AB will be rather low without tensers but it will be good enough to get through trash mobs, etc. You can tenser up fully buffed with an epic summon to get you through PvM easier. If you go necro, you'll have fear, wail, and finger of death to help out.
This won't be a powerbuild, but you should be able to get by.

EDIT: I modified the stats a little, dropping WIS by 2 to raise CON by 2. However, you can tweak the stats to your desire. Like I said, this character pretty much needs everything.
EDIT2: Misdid AC calculation

I was wondering if there were any reasonably strong archer builds that allow for the use of a summon to tank? In other games I've enjoyed that style of play (in PvM) - dealing damage with a bow from afar while a single strong summon does most of the tanking.

From what I've been able to gather, the only really effective archer class is the Arcane Archer, while the only class that gets a summon strong enough to do dedicated tanking is the druid with the animal companion. I looked into making a Zen Archery based druid, but I also found that an archer druid is anemic at best in terms of damage dealt (all the feats / fighter levels to make the bow effective compromises spell damage, and the bow dmg is never particularly great).

Zen Archery cleric with Mummy Dust.

I have one, and it tops 55AB without even having epic wep focus.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Zen Archery cleric with Mummy Dust.

Would that have adequate tanking from summon while leveling up, though? With the changes to the Summon Creature spell (much shorter duration at lower levels) the char would probably be without a real tank until higher levels (even with animal domain).

Also, if I'm not mistaken the Magic Weapon spells don't work on bows, right?

Very_Svensk wrote:

I have one, and it tops 55AB without even having epic wep focus.

Ok?

Sorry, I was buying time while i searched for the build-sheet im about to post.

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/6053/clericarcher.jpg Check this one out.

I made mine with the Death domain. That means the mummy dust feat there could instead be Greater ruin or similar.

Death domain for the shadow summon, right? How effective is that at tanking? What level do you get it at?

Why Sun domain? Wouldn't Travel or Earth make more sense? I would say Trickery, but the only deity that works with Death / Trickery is a dead Drow goddess, which would seem like more than a bit of a stretch for a human cleric.

Kiaransalee is not dead on Amia. Nor are Vhaeraun, Selvetarm, or Eilistraee.

Hrm, I suppose that's what I get for using forgotten realms wiki . . . in any case, a drow goddess would be a stretch for a human cleric anyway? I guess a zen archer cleric could work as an elf (or drow), though.

You shouldn't chose your god based on their domains. You can get by with the summon line until EMD, you might just need to prepare it a few times, to last until you can rest again.

if you are however struggling to find a suitable got for your character, click the <-- deity system tab over yonder, then ctrl + F and search for one domain your after and see which gods match alignment and domain idea's, then check out the amia wiki for more detailed info's on those gods to see if they -really- match your characters ideal's and beliefs.

my favorite ones oddly have bonuses for non clerics too ie this

Quote:

Druids that follow a god with Animal or Plant domains will act like Clerics and give an auto-success party -wide alignment blessing. They do not get any domain blessings (as they obviously don't have a domain).

this however applys to specific character types and gods

Quote:

in any case, a drow goddess would be a stretch for a human cleric anyway?

maybe.....unless you we're a slave turned cleric slave...but that also doesn't work since the drow are more likely to just, you know, kill you. (and or tell you to go away, if they are goodly drow's, cause im still pretty sure human clerics of their faiths would be offencive.......??)

PosImpos wrote:

Death domain for the shadow summon, right? How effective is that at tanking? What level do you get it at?

Why Sun domain? Wouldn't Travel or Earth make more sense? I would say Trickery, but the only deity that works with Death / Trickery is a dead Drow goddess, which would seem like more than a bit of a stretch for a human cleric.

Dunno. Pick whatever doimains you want, those were the ones i choose on my PC.

It's encouraged, though not enforced, that a cleric should pick his deity's domains. And of course there are certain taboos, like a cleric of the God of Life taking Destruction and Death as domains. Always try to explain your choices somehow. 'My character beats up stuff so I snatched War Domain', is simply not good enough.

Sehanine Moonbow might be suitable for a non-undead death domain elf. She has the death portfolio in the elven pantheon, not the domain though. Osiris doesn't have the death domain either but my cleric does, I don't think it is too far fetched if you RP it with some thought and understand the dogma of your god.

Quote:

Sehanine has also forged alliances with some of the other human and demihuman powers who oversee death, but she has no tolerance for those who practice in the black arts of necromancy. (Sehanine does tolerate careful experimentation in white necromancy, and it is said that she vigilantly oversees the creation of baelnorn as a necessary, if undesirable, practice.)

Quote:

Dunno. Pick whatever doimains you want, those were the ones i choose on my PC.

You should know better, Svensk.

Wha!?

if I may interject, and if I am not remembering incorrectly, svensk picked his domains based on what domains his god has ? and was meaning don't pick the same ones for no reason ?

is I assume why he just said "wha?!"

For a wizard to get epic spells, the requirements are INT over 20 and at least 21 wizard levels, right?

21+ base int, 21+ levels of wizard, and spellcraft pre-requisites.

nwn wiki shows the pre-requisite as level 9 spell casting however this is noted beneath to be untrue and requires

Quote:

being an epic cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard, or having at least 15 pale master levels. Furthermore, this feat can only be chosen when gaining a level in the qualifying class.

Yep, I remember reading the spellcraft prereq's for certain spells, just couldn't find the INT/CHA/WIS requirements

um, actually, now i'm kinda confused because

Quote:

Mind that you need a base Wis, Int or Cha of at least 20 to be able to cast Epic Spells!

this is from the spells section over <--, so....does 'at least' mean 20 or 21??? >_>

20 of course?

thats real fun that cause I just wasted a stat point then on my newest toon...doesn't actually break it but, could have had more hp quicker. kind of annoying that.

Soooooo 20 base, then? My wizard is already 19 so I should know XD

But, then, here's my wizard's stats:
STR 11
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 19
WIS 10
CHA 10

Should INT really get pushed over 20? Or should I start to bump something else?

depends how you want the character to play out, I would personally buff all my main stats with items at epic levels if not beforehand. soo, how many more level 9 slots would you like for example? more AC? buff dex, more health? buff con, or level out the str stat to 12 and buff to +7 and be a spellsword (imho though maybe don't do this)

there are many possibilities. should also mention while wisdom is nigh on useless to a pure wizard it does increase your will save. and charisma.........meh.

Naivatkal wrote:

Should INT really get pushed over 20? Or should I start to bump something else?

More INT = higher DC. Amirite?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Should INT really get pushed over 20? Or should I start to bump something else?

More INT = higher DC. Amirite?

Yerrite!

not for spell resistance, thats Caster CL + d20 + spell penetration feat

but for saves on spells >=)

Quote:

DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier

this from here http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Difficulty_class

also some other skills take int into account for DC...god damnit svensk ninja'd me >_>

Yeah that's why WIS and CHA are at 10 XD
Spellsword = not so much, he's a mage and that's about it, so he's not going to be taking any fighting classes or anything of the like
I forgot about the bonus spell slots, hah
Looks like for an extra lvl 9 slot I'd need to sink to feats into Great Int, which kinda sucks :/

But, yeah, I think INT would be the best route. STR and DEX and CON can all be buffed. Spells hoooooooooooooooooo!

Also, since I don't think I've asked this before:
What are the 'must haves' for a wizard? Already have Empower Spell, and I think Maximize spell is a main one to have?
Chara also has Spell Focus and Arcane Defense in Evocation right now, since that's his specialty.
What about Spell Penetration, up to Epic SP?

edit: Also, planing on going up to Epic Spell Focus for Evocation. I think

You want extend and maximise. Silent spell is handy if you expect to be silenced by other characters in PvP to have some backup spells and to bump spells into a higher tier. I'd only take SP up to greater spell penetration, the epic feat is more valuable for something else. Epic spell focus is a must have.

Okay, good to know.

Also, I take it that the Epic Warding feat is impossible to get on Amia since you cannot get the 34 base Spellcraft ranks for it? Or is it supposed to be total spellcraft?

No warding on Amia, yups.

Essentials: Extend, Maximise, Spell Focus

Useful: Silent, Empower, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration

Don't take: Epic Spell Penetration, Arcane Defense

Last edited by Glyph on Sat, Mar 26 2011, 18:14 PM, edited 1 time in total.

sort of depends on the end build, full pure wizards and sorcs too I guess would benefit from epic spell focus because monks are ungodly hard to hit and every bonus helps. monsters can have spell resist too. don't count on it hitting rogues though evasion is one of the best feats period.

arcane defence is useful to avoid certain death, example your arcane defence against necromancy might help to save you from wail for lack of a good fort save. I don't usually take defence but then I usually make paper cannon style wizards who rely on counterspell and other tactics.

extend, empower, max are all pretty essential, you can stack similar spells into different levels that way and make your 6 fireballs into 18. and either still or silent for the same, and still for in heavy armour, silent can help if you prepare something that would get you out of trouble if you get silented, because thats a deffinate killer to a wizard.

not all spells stack with those powers, and each power has its own benefits, the debate of empower vs max has been going since nwn was released so...lets just skip that one >_>

epic focuses help to further the DC dished out against opponents, again probably good against monks. they also have other benefits like boosting your summons time on the field. there are also some focuses which are probably a waste of time because of the limited amount of offencive spells under their hood but still would help for said spells.

I -think- epic skill focus spellcraft also gives the +2 saves against all spells -but- I found in testing tumble does not give the ac you would expect and would not put a bet on the fact that spellcraft isn't the same.

as you can tell I like wizards =D

multiclassing is another matter entirely, and if you leave it at 24 i wouldn't rely on epic spell focus to make up the difference between a well built monks spell resistance, that said your likely to still anhiliate most monsters.

quad ninja'd -_-

ed: extend is great for boosting buffing spells like cats foxes owls dogs geese ?_? and haste. this is one of the metamagics that don't work for stacking offensives so well but comes under the essential category for survival and general awesomeness.

---

while we're on the topic of wizards I do have a question, how do I build a sorc >_> I know that sounds dumb but I never know what spells to pick or anything it confounds me.

Alrighty, here's what I am looking at so far. Tell me if I am way off.

Human, Halruaan
I think I am going to go all wizard. Maybe add a level of Rogue or something, but I highly doubt it.
Pretty much an Evo spec, unless I add another, and especially adept with fire.

Currently have:
Spell Focus: Evocation
Arcane Defense: Evocation (RP flavor)
Skill Focus: Concentration
Empower Spell

Next up:
06: Skill Focus: Spellcraft
09: Extend Spell
10: Maximize Spell
12: Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
21: Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft
23: Epic Spell: Greater Ruin OR Hellball
24: Great Intelligence I
26: Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor
27: Epic Spell Focus: Evocation

This leaves me with 4 feats and 2 Epic feats.

ALSO: I just realized I effed myself out of the bonus lvl 9 slot. I have to sacrifice one of the Epic feats for more INT if I want it. Hah :/

AND: I have like 114 unused skill points after 33 in Concentration, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Lore, Spellcraft XD
What the heck to do with those.

And in regards to Spellcraft: According to the NWN Wiki the bonuses against spells take into account total for the skill. Which right now, at level 30 he will have a 55 :3

Well first off, don't take those skill focuses on Spellcraft. The Spellcraft save bonus counts toward the +20 cap, making it not something to rely on.

Take Mummy Dust instead of Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft, and a crafting feat instead of Skill Focus: Spellcraft or Great Fortitude (though didn't you say he was a spellblade? Take some melee feats if you want to be worth a damn at it).

I would suggest losing mage armour simply because it does nothing once you max your ac

Quote:

The bonus granted by this spell consists of +5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus. The deflection, armor, and natural bonuses do not stack with bonuses of the same type.

it is useful, but considering you just lost a feat slot this may be a good option for you.

I also deffinatly recommend a crafting feat aswell, making potions and wands is awesome fun

No, no, you don't drop Epic Mage Armor. You take it so you free up a whole load of mythal slots, not to mention +5 Dodge AC...

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Well first off, don't take those skill focuses on Spellcraft. The Spellcraft save bonus counts toward the +20 cap, making it not something to rely on.

Take Mummy Dust instead of Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft, and a crafting feat instead of Skill Focus: Spellcraft or Great Fortitude (though didn't you say he was a spellblade? Take some melee feats if you want to be worth a damn at it).

lol No no, I said he wasn't going to melee XD Glyph was asking if he was going to be heh

Why would the +20 cap have something to do with not relying on Spellcraft bonuses? I would think it is better to push that sort of thing up there to reach the bonus cap? How else would he achieve the max bonuses and such?

I'm going to have to look into the Mummy Dust stuff, I know there a topic on it somewhere lol

Also, what about things like the Black Blade of Disaster and Shelgarn's Persistent Blade? How do you get those summons? I've seen the former in action and that's pretty valuable in my opinion.

And brew potion is something I thought of, but forgot to add haha. Done.

fake edit: As you can see, I have no experience in casting characters haha

real edit: I am so taking notes on all this XD

Naivatkal wrote:

Why would the +20 cap have something to do with not relying on Spellcraft bonuses? I would think it is better to push that sort of thing up there to reach the bonus cap? How else would he achieve the max bonuses and such?

What would you say is better? +10 Spellcraft (and hence +2 saves against spells) or Epic Fortitude, which is +4 Fortitude against everything? The point is, you can't rely on saves against spells when there's a whole host of other abilities you should be careful about. For instance: pulses, Dev Crit, traps and assassin abilities.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, what about things like the Black Blade of Disaster and Shelgarn's Persistent Blade? How do you get those summons? I've seen the former in action and that's pretty valuable in my opinion.

Just take the spell?

Shelgarn is level 1, Black Blade is level 9.

true, could buff saves and DR, and flawless mythals are not exactly common, nor are +5 boots...however idk cause from my perspective, do you cast and gain up to 20 ac or have 20 ac without buffing?

black blade is a level 9 spell, relies on concentration to sustain it, very interesting one to say the least and has a bunch of other special features, difficult to use I imagine but strong.

persistant blade is conversly a level 1 spell, and is fairly good to begin with. I forgot to mention the most important difference between wizards and sorcs, wizards can learn from scrolls

class feat.

I guess spellcraft may not be such a good idea but still has its uses in amia other than the saves bonus, mythaling and counterspelling for one.

and said topic is here http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=774963

nin....I agree with paladin on this one, fort against crits is probably better than spellcraft though it does have its other bonuses like I says.

A good mage doesn't need AC really. Without going the AC route with still spell III or some -ASF armor/shield the feat is more or less, wasted, imho. Unless he's some sort of spellsword and you melee.

And ditch epic spellcraft like the others said.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Misinformed stuff!

What would you say is better? +10 Spellcraft (and hence +2 saves against spells) or Epic Fortitude, which is +4 Fortitude against everything? The point is, you can't rely on saves against spells when there's a whole host of other abilities you should be careful about. For instance: pulses, Dev Crit, traps and assassin abilities.

Hah! Put that way, it makes so much more sense

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Silly stuff!

Just take the spell?

Shelgarn is level 1, Black Blade is level 9.

Pfffft total fail on my part XD I thought it was something special to Amia for some reason lol

Also, now I have to decide between another level 9 slot or Epic Mummy Dust. Hmmmm I'm tempted to think Mummy Dust. The Evo one is kinda cool, though I'd wish it could be a fire elemental considering my character's aptitude for fire XD

black blade has some changes from default, its at the bottom of the summons <-- list, and yea mummy dust is totally worth one slot.

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