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Dark Immolation
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 Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 0:53 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Very_Svensk wrote: You gotta agree we need to do something about the entire 'Gets killed 5 times/day and still acts like it's nothing'. Maybe this is a type of 'Something'
And Letumlux example is between two decent players, Which are a minority on this server. (My opinion) But why should we, Svensk? You're suggesting we impose our Reality on a fantasy world for no more reason than "It's bad, m'kay?". A PC who "acts like it's nothing", well the player is probably overlooking the pain that a PC would actually experience on the way to dying. A loooot of people seems to forget that. In truth, the pain that leads to dying is probably more painful than the actual act of dying itself. And by the act, I mean "when your soul leaves your body", or "the brain, respiratory, and nervous system cease functioning" by some definitions. It may be perfectly acceptable for a PC IC to not fear the act of dying. I will say that again. The actual act of one's soul leaving his body may not be as off-putting to you or I as it is to a man in a fantasy world. But the pain that he feels in the process of being killed is likely something to be feared. Or at least avoided upon pain of death(see what I did there?). What I'm saying is, no one gets "used" to being shot in the eye with an arrow. No one leisurely avoids having a Balor's claw driven through their chest. Pain is pain, and while one may build a tolerance to it, it is still a sensation that one feels that is the body telling one "Look, you're fucking up, stop whatever it is going on from going on." And usually, most mortals respond to that in a very cautious way, even if they realize death as a remediable state. _________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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LetumLux
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 1:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: Amia IKEA
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All of those examples are bringing realism to a game also. I don't think the game should be rigidly like reality, but I think there is a certain basis for it which makes the game world and the characters - especially the characters - more relate-able and compelling when there are certain familiarities of the universe we know into one that is teeming with magic and fantasy. Fantasy (especially D&D) is based in reality, regardless. Many of the monsters are inspired from real world mythos, gods taken from actual religions, concepts, cultures, objects, ways of building or crafting. It's already a parallel.
I think I am safe in saying no one here has died and come back to life before, so while that may be fun for some people to play, there's really no frame of reference for it - but fear of death? I think most people can relate to that enough for it to be a solid concept; actually dying is less so, and we can stumble over the awkwardness of that every outing, or we can save it for truly important encounters.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 1:08 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I can agree that it's certainly something difficult for anyone to wrap their head around. I can undoubtedly say none of us have experienced death, first hand. >_> Or at least I hope I can.
So it's all speculation, essentially. How are we to know our PC's wouldn't have given up adventuring after their first death? Who's to say they wouldn't have been offput by the first time they killed an ogre? I certainly hope no one here has run into an indigenous people's cave and killed the residents, either.
So if people would like to extend their RL fear of death over into their characters, who like it or not, experience it, are surrounded by it, and more or less deliver it a lot more than we do, then I can begin to understand that as a stance they are coming from to roleplay. But ultimately, no one here has ever witnessed someone being risen from the death once, let alone multiple times within a lifetime. Therefore it is my speculation that what we view as a permanent end, likely doesn't have nor need the same meaning we might wish to superimpose on it in a world where it is provably not permanent in all cases.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
Last edited by Dark Immolation on Fri, Mar 25 2011, 1:10 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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ainjyll
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 1:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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In my opinion and my opinion alone, when you die, you're dead. The only exception to this is in PvP where the victor says you were KO'd. There is no specific rule about this, mind you. It's just my particular take on the matter. I don't particularly have anything against saying that a character is KO'd, as long as it's RP'd well and not just hopping back up and moving on like nothing happened. Having been the recipient of several concussions from getting knocked out... you really want to do that, but it hurts way too damn much.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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LetumLux
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 1:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: Amia IKEA
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Dark Immolation wrote: Therefore it is my speculation that what we view as a permanent end, likely doesn't have nor need the same meaning we might wish to superimpose on it in a world where it is provably not permanent in all cases. I dig that. It's a good thing to keep in mind.
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 2:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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no one has answered the question, why can you avoid a finger of death. and thats because the only answer involves avoiding rp. I have nothing else to say on the matter, its like playing chess with a three year old who doesn't get it.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 3:45 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I'd ask you to not be so quick in judging people just because they haven't replied to your particular question, Glyph. I for instance didn't know you asked a question until now, when you mentioned it, because I was responding to other people.
To answer your question, you can't. And no one has said explicitly that you can, from what I remember. The main issue was upon things like mobs and melee attacks I believe. As you cannot see what is actually hit on your PC besides knowing only that he/she was hit.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 3:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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I have no problem with people RPing however they want but I draw the line at talking dead people. actions have consiquences. if I may however give an example, its like saying your not poisoned by toxic gas when your health bar has turned green and the effects are set in, because you disbelieve it due to some rp relevant to your character, again, nonsensical, yet in essence the same. ed: immolation I didn't ask the question originally Grymia did, i'm just saying there has been no answer because its null and void. I nearly forgot to mention, it was said that some mobs use death spells too, not just PC's ed2: removed several paragraphs worth of ranting, just, get it already. please? Quote: I'm essentially saying there's a high likelyhood of either, which is why always RPing PvM deaths as KO's seems a little bit silly.
does that make sense? I'm not trying to make you all conform to without question dying i'm asking that you RP sensibly and don't try to underplay hunting, its already underplayed enough.
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Drakos_Vek
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 6:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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Way I see it from what I read so far...
In PvP, whether the player died or not, is up to the discretion of the party that felled them.
PvE is however, circumstantial. If your player dies from a death spell like finger of death, you die (unless of course, you pass the save and die from the 3d6 damage that is still entailed). So, the option to roleplay your character as knocked out, should only come if the character dies from direct damage. However, whenever the option to roleplay it as KOed does arise, it is just that, OPTIONAL.
DM Events are completely different, and are decided by the DM them self.
...Anyway, that's what I can summarise from all this.
_________________ Kerath Zau'tar - Underdark commander and thief - Scheming and lurking. Derryn de'Drenise - Watcher of Helm - Scolder of witches and wizards
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 6:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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....
...which begs the question whats the difference between being knocked out and dead from a typing things standpoint? still shouldn't talk other than -maybe- something on the way to the floor. the only difference would be *emotes of horrific bloody mess* or *is unresponsive*
unless we're getting into the debate of death, incapacitation and slight headache but frankly this will be my last post in this topic, I have said all I can and pointed to every mechanic I can think of, though the mechanics have been utterly ignored here.
ed: I'm still concerned that this thread is directed at dm's and expecting players to stand by in the previous thread of the same topic and let this fly, this is a community not a voting system.
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Drakos_Vek
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 7:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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Glyph wrote: the only difference would be *emotes of horrific bloody mess* or *is unresponsive* Pretty much. Amia is a role play server, so it is not played straight by mechanics. Role play rules above mechanics. It's the same case for Deity rings, the game mechanics say I can wear all of them, but the RP restriction say no, and they take priority. Mechanic-wise, SDs can hide WHENEVER and use shadow jump to go wherever, however, server policy dictates we follow the lore rules and not the mechanic ones. The point being, game mechanics are not always the best thing to run by. Also, Ironangel, it occurs to me you only wanted DMs here, apologies. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say really, so I'm out. _________________ Kerath Zau'tar - Underdark commander and thief - Scheming and lurking. Derryn de'Drenise - Watcher of Helm - Scolder of witches and wizards
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 7:23 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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page 145 players manual, 3.5 edition.
rant removed, sanity semi-intact.
for the benefit of those that do not own pnp books, it is a page and a half detailing exactly what happens in relation to hit points, including disablement at 0 hp, unconsiousness, death, stabalization, healing, temporary hit points, and non lethal damage.
there is no other 'lore' on the matter
ed: I assume from the astounding silence of others that this is free to fly...just letting you know here, I will not acknowledge talking dead/unconsious persons. thats fair is it not.
maybe I value the pnp version of the rules too much but if your not playing by the rules your not playing dnd your just acting and making it up as you go. if its wrong to oppose that then sue me.
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Nekhy
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 8:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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How many critters cast Finger of Death on Amia, btw? I don't think insta-death spells are a relevant point here at all, when we're discussing the innumerable deaths that happen when adventurers get pummeled down by monsters that lose interest in the characters the moment they fall down. Of course you die if you get hit by an insta-death spell and fail your save. But that wasn't the point.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 8:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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ok, lowbiest lowbie enemy on the server, kobolds. poison tipped arrows, knives, attack in groups, if they manage to kill their goblin enemies. Mc level 3 runs at said kobolds, do they A run B knock them unconsious or C kill them stone dead with the poison tipped arrows they possess?
i'm out, again im sorry if I've offended anyone.
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Nekhy
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 8:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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I trust that you can RP each situation mentioned in a way that builds your character's storyline appropriately, and if you're in doubt, you perhaps ask the opinion of others for the particular situation.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 8:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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If you get shot in the chest and go completely limp with poison and blood loss, do you think you die that moment? If your gut is sliced open and everything pours out onto the ground, do you think you die that moment? If your body is covered in fourth degree burns, do you think you die that moment? You may want to ask some paramedics about the things they've seen.
You make the assumption that (barring very rare cases where you fall between 0 and -9 HP) the very first strike that has any effect on your PC's ability to fight (because until HP 1, no strike does) also happens to kill you in an instant. Talk about ridicilous, hmm?
Also, what Nekh said. I'm not sure who thinks that they never die or that others can't die either. At least my point is only "I trust my situational awareness and good taste, and will roll with the punches as the situation warrants." If you're trying to infer general rules from my stance you're going to fail, because I specifically abhor all such rules in RP.
Dark Immolation, while I think it's secondary to discuss how the game world should be, I'll explain why I prefer what I prefer. You're talking about some imaginary fantasy world that is not Forgotten Realms. People don't die and come back just like that in FR. They need to find a priest who is willing to cast the spell, they need to locate and buy very expensive diamonds (which considering Amia's inflation would cost something like 500000 gold) and they have to hope the body is in good enough a condition to be raised. Even after all this, the raised one still loses a level. So no, even in the world of magic, mayhem and adventurers we're supposed to play in, death is not just an inconvenience. That's how it is on Amia, but that perverted state of affairs is nothing to idealize and cherish.
It boils down to what we want from the setting and atmosphere. It's fine for you to want what you want, but don't pretend it's the way it "should" be. Your interpretation is about as far from the real FR as the real world is, on the other hand.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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QPR
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 12:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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As long as you can keep on fighting at full ability when reduced from 364 to 1 hitpoint, D&D mechanics carry with them a major flaw, and must thus be open to interpretation.
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 14:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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Not really. The base rules of DnD outline it pretty clearly. -10hp, death. @IronAngel: IronAngel wrote: If you get shot in the chest and go completely limp with poison and blood loss, do you think you die that moment? If your gut is sliced open and everything pours out onto the ground, do you think you die that moment? If your body is covered in fourth degree burns, do you think you die that moment? You may want to ask some paramedics about the things they've seen.
You make the assumption that (barring very rare cases where you fall between 0 and -9 HP) the very first strike that has any effect on your PC's ability to fight (because until HP 1, no strike does) also happens to kill you in an instant. Talk about ridicilous, hmm? If you get shot inthe heart? Your dead  Yay critical hits! Otherwise, what you are saying is that we can ignore lore, fluff, and mechanics if it suits us because Super Realism is the true name of the Fantasy Roleplaying Game Dungeons and Dragons? Ever notice how the real world doesn't work in d20? Come now, IA, the whole point of -10 is that your soul leaves your body once it hits that point. Blame Gygax if you take issue, not us. Your shiny core rule books say it straight to you.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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The Great Equalizer
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 15:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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NWN's mechanics suck and also don't allow for the same control you could manage in a PnP game.
Taking it as a KO seems just as valid to me, not like it changes much when death generally means jack-all anyhow.
Although I don't really care either way since I prefer the route of just not dying regularly enough for it to become an issue.
Also Screw D&D or even NWN ideas of death, Amia really isn't them and using them as any basis seems slightly odd to me, just do what makes the most sense to you for the setting you are in.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 15:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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If Amia isn't using DnD, let alone the FR setting, then that comes as a serious shock and you have debunked the entire need for this discussion as well as the basis for the Lore thread. In any case, if we can pick and choose mechanics, why would a shadowdancer then need a shadow to HIPS or Shadowjump? Why not ignore alignment for gods because with mechanics and lore out of the way, who is to say Bane can't have LG followers? Paladin of Cyric anyone? What I am getting at is what makes it OK, the practice of tossing death lore and mechanics out the window, as compared to the rest? I understand the concept of Homebrew/House Rules, but I want to know the logic behind setting this one apart and what makes it special.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
Last edited by DustSpray101 on Fri, Mar 25 2011, 15:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 15:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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Quote: If you get shot in the chest and go completely limp with poison and blood loss, do you think you die that moment? shortly after. Quote: If your gut is sliced open and everything pours out onto the ground, do you think you die that moment? without a shadow of a doubt Quote: You may want to ask some paramedics about the things they've seen. paramedics are not clerics. Quote: If Amia isn't using DnD, let alone the FR setting, then that comes as a serious shock and you have debunked the entire need for this discussion as well as the basis for the Lore thread. is why i'm -still- arguing the point.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 15:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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The Great Equalizer wrote: NWN's mechanics suck and also don't allow for the same control you could manage in a PnP game. Just to quickly point something out here: That is called DM intervention. As a player in a PnP game you cannot randomly go 'Oh, hey! That dragon (or whatever) didn't just kill me even though I hit -10 HP! Yay!'
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBnL4Rj6V8Mskip to 4:40, watch closely. understand the anti-climactic implications. making me compare an argument to monty python is a bad sign. ed: I literally have nothing more to say, if you don't get it yet thats your problem. ed2: I don't mind how you rp im just trying to prove a legitimate point about dnd in general. be happy we don't die at 0 hp like in 1st ed.
Last edited by Glyph on Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:14 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWnoIf Monty Python is what you are looking for, this better sums up the ridiculousness. That is if seen from the standpoint that the Black Knight is the PC and Arthur is simply a wandering encounter.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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Glyph
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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yup.
what more can I say? those that disagree with the core mechanics have obviously already made up their minds.
ed: I saw in another thread that nothing was invalidated nor validated, however I don't think you realise this could cause people to think its fine to rp including talking while dead/incapacitated/otherwise, people are going to get annoyed if this happens because it is an immersion breaker, people that think its ok will do it and others will do the same.
for the record, it wasn't the game that made me leave last time it was arguments like this, I don't want to argue and bitchfight over every mechanic to prevent this place from becoming, idk hero quest or something, thats another tabletop rpg. its dnd, its fr, and the rules should matter, else everything falls apart.
i'm going to -try- not to read this thread again, I have said far too much already.
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Nekhy
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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DustSpray101 wrote: What I am getting at is what makes it OK, the practice of tossing death lore and mechanics out the window, as compared to the rest? I understand the concept of Homebrew/House Rules, but I want to know the logic behind setting this one apart and what makes it special. It's a way to make a happening more meaningful, and most importantly it doesn't hurt anything if done tastefully. It's not that you trump mechanics for the sake of trumping mechanics, but you might do it to make your character's storyline a bit more believable to yourself. Is it unrealistic to assume a character is knocked unconscious in the heat of the battle and forgotten by the enemy, instead of being ripped to shreads right away? Not at all. Is it unrealistic to, well, let's use the Monty Python Black Knight as an example. Yes, that's quite unrealistic and an example of how not to RP a KO. It may be a fine difference, but I don't think it's a difficult concept to grasp at all. Just ask: is this reasonable and tasteful? Or is it excessive, overblown and comical? This applies to a lot of rules. If it's not too far a stretch and doesn't break anything seriously, if it's done reasonably and maturely... then go for it and bend the rules a little, if it makes your character more real to you and others. There's no need to be anally dogmatic if it doesn't serve the story. The rules are there to serve the character, not the other way around.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:32 PM |
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I don't know what else to tell you but that if you can't work this out amongst yourselves through a combination of reason and flexibility, something is wrong with you. I never had this much trouble as a player navigating a fabricated universe. Holy crap.
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The Great Equalizer
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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Just like to point out that I really don't mind either way what anyone chooses to do, with that said:
Lore and mechanics are separate entities, one may often derive logic from the other initially but that does not mean that you must take one with the other just because it has been so classically.
I advocated simply that D&D and NWN mechanics do not always have to be held to in the classical sense, not that we should dismiss lore. Then again we do have a large amount of homebrew anyhow so even the argument that we must stick to lore religiously is a weak one.
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Kudark
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Every one of us has a slightly different outlook on how death is portrayed. People will do what they do, if you don't like it, take it up with them in Tells or PM's, not in //OOC please.
So far, I've only seen a handful of those that have a hard time with their character getting killed. For the most part, most are mature about it and are just trying to have a good time.
_________________ 
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 19:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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DustSpray101 wrote:
Otherwise, what you are saying is that we can ignore lore, fluff, and mechanics if it suits us because Super Realism is the true name of the Fantasy Roleplaying Game Dungeons and Dragons?
Actually what I'm saying is that I want to ignore that stuff in the name of my petty pride in my superior taste and my distaste for some random punk 3/4 my age, 1/2 my education and 1/4 my intelligence telling me what to do.  (Not you or anyone else specific, mind!) But seriously speaking, the freedom to be the arbiter of my own actions is one of the major reasons (in addition to a familiar and friendly community and culture and a professional DM team) I play Amia rather than some servers whose design appeals to me more. Amia respects its players and gives us the freedom and responsibility to flourish or make asses of ourselves. If you're old enough to participate in an online community, you're old enough to take responsibility for your bad RP without DMs nannying you. But anyway, Yossarin is pretty much on the mark. In stark contrast to forum reality, I never actually have any problems and arguments in game and nobody's ever complained about my ridicilous RP. (Though in fairness, I've not been very active lately.) This is not a new thing, either. So I think people are overreacting a little. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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RaveN
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 22:30 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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@ Nekhy -
Beholders cast death gaze, which kills people instantly if they fail the save. There are quite alot of beholders on the server.
That aside, when you say that the monster "knocks you down" and then loses interest... I think the term "monster" is being too loosely used. You all like real life comparisons to video games. Go watch what happens with real animals. They eat the other one. If a human was bleeding and a shark was starving, you wouldn't get knocked out. A beholder has much sharper teeth than any shark we know, probably.
Not to mention the severe strength of some of the critters.. (Some ranging over 40) actually have [more] strength than gods in the books! I can't imagine that if a Balor Warrior cuts you down that he's just going to leave your body on the ground in the abyss. I can't imagine you'd somehow get up and just be like.. "oh that was a bad experience. I don't want to get knocked out by the blunt of his blade again.. herp derp."
Not to mention there are certain monsters who look like lorewise, they would sacrifice you to their god, or hell, just for fun, after you die. There is also burning corpses, which is extremely common to fallen foes.
Now, by taking out all of these elements and methods to die, you're removing an entire element of lore, roleplay and instead, giving people the freedom, which they currently abuse, to walk around like PvE deaths means absolutely nothing and they go about their day as if a Celestial Avenger didn't just decapitate them without even trying.
This flies in the face of lore, and it also makes no sense why PvP death's would count any differently.
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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 22:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Needled247 wrote: *Snip* Why or how the hell would any critter do the stuff you describe in the middle of a heated battle for life and death where five other armed-to-the-teeth adventurers are pressing on them and their lair? You see an enemy fall, you turn to the next one. You don't stop to check if they're dead, have their toes for a snack and burn the corpses while the battle rages around you. PvP isn't treated any different; it can result in either death or incapacitation, as the situation warrants (decided by the victor). NPCs don't decide anything so it by necessity falls to the victim and those he's playing with to judge the circumstances. Mechanics can and should never overrule human judgement as long as we're role-playing a story. That's a principle that absolutely has to be maintained. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Mar 25 2011, 22:52 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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RaveN
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 22:52 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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What happens when your party dies? They just float over your corpse until they despawn?
No. They probably would do something, and none of the results are looking good for "KO".
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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 22:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Needled247 wrote: What happens when your party dies? They just float over your corpse until they despawn?
No. They probably would do something, and none of the results are looking good for "KO". If your party dies, you obviously don't get raised in the next few minutes you have to live and therefore it's not appropriate to RP it as anything but death. Do you seriously have no situational awareness, or are you just trolling? In fact, if your entire party dies you'll have to respawn safely back home, which makes your point especially ineffective. If you think the bodies get sacrificed and burned, feel free to accept permadeath for your PCs. Until you do, your argument is hypocritical and inconsistent. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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RaveN
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 22:57 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Lmfao, if I was trolling, I'd be posting alot less words. By insulting the other person, instead of proving your point, you don't prove them incorrect, you don't actually make yourself look any better. I have no desire to get into a pissing match over a video game, but if one OOC rights another one, then by all means, keep piling them on.
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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Mar 25 2011, 23:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Then why did you ask such an obvious question? It has been repeated ad nauseam that situational awareness is key and everyone is free to make the tasteful choice that fits the circumstances. If we're RPing raise scrolls as powerful first aid magic that can restart organs and heal lethal injuries but not actually call long-dead souls from the dead (which I do, because I refuse to accept my (almost) godless rogue having the ability to personally invoke gods through a scrap of paper), then a situation where the entire party dies and nobody is there to immediately raise them is obviously grounds for real death and not just incapacitation. You're setting up strawmans to burn down, and nobody actually stands behind them.
But I guess if you're uncertain about the situation, go by the mechanics. If you're confident that you know better, follow your nose. Everybody gets to do their own thing and nobody gets hurt.
I did support my point and refute yours, by the way. Don't let my provocative (though I wouldn't say insulting) tone distract you from that. Commenting on my style and tone and conveniently ignoring my rebuttal of your argument isn't very convincing, either.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 1:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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So he is "nearly" faithless?  No wonder death is frightening. 
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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weales
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 6:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Location: toronto, canada
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this post is a good example of why i dont bother contributing to the community in the form of ooc discussion because it shows me just how useless it is to express an idea to said community. but i do have my own input and you're going to read it whether you like it or not.
i think the idea iron brought up is circumstantial at best and i think we're all grown ups and can consider the things that would outright kill us in a fantasy setting or something that might put us into an unconscious state where maybe some healing magic would bring us back as opposed to raising a fully dead body.
its not even the point of making some radical transition to a new system, just take the idea and incorporate it into your groups RP. clarify with your party what you plan to do. example: you got stomped by some guy with a big blunt object and fall to -10 (mechanically dead.) in real world scenarios you can sustain such damage and still be "alive", but would need medical attention. use your imaginations and diversify your rp. if you get cut in half or death magic pwns your soul then yeah, you're dead. if you feel you and the others around you feel that every single person who dies might have had a fleeting chance of life and "nursed" back to health with powerful healing magic, do it.
i'm sure the average player (hope i dont regret this) doesnt give two shits about playing god mode style and could conceive the notion when out hunting that people could have a brush with death and still come out of it with the correct attention given. some players probably dont even care they die 20 times and disregard it after the hunt is over. i'd say the point of someone nearly dying over someone actually dying would create more rp, which is strange, but given the mechanics of the game and the way death works to be honest...being on the brink of death would most likely serve a better story for those involved, as opposed to actually dying amia.
ill remember to come look back every few days to see the regular forum goers get all pissy, it might prove amusing.
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Glyph
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 9:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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Quote: Actually what I'm saying is that I want to ignore that stuff in the name of my petty pride in my superior taste and my distaste for some random punk 3/4 my age, 1/2 my education and 1/4 my intelligence telling me what to do. (Not you or anyone else specific, mind!) ed: do I actually need to say anything I don't think I do. Quote: If we're RPing raise scrolls as powerful first aid magic that can restart organs and heal lethal injuries but not actually call long-dead souls from the dead (which I do, because I refuse to accept my (almost) godless rogue having the ability to personally invoke gods through a scrap of paper), then a situation where the entire party dies and nobody is there to immediately raise them is obviously grounds for real death and not just incapacitation. scrolls are just scrolls of the spell RAISE DEAD, not magic first aid, this is not a debate unless you want to argue divine magic aswell. if you hadn't been on amia for so long I would swear your a troll... (ed: for the record I didn't join in 2010 before anyone tries pulling that on me. been here longer than that.) nother edit: weales while some people do do what you describe frankly it is one of the more annoying things about rp on the server, some people don't rp on hunts at all, its just xp for them, so what? rp! ie. if they want to suddenly dash off into the darkness let them, there comes a point where spamming mobs becomes as fun as watching paint dry which is why good players will try to break it up at least a bit with some rp. more specifically when you run into another party and three of your party say in /p chat "come on ignore them" I usually do not carry on or ignore them, its bad form. (if you do not agree with this don't partay with me =) )
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Nekhy
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 19:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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Not RPing on hunts, btw, is very specifically against the server rules. It's IC all the way after the entry.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 20:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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@weales, Nehky
If it is meant to make death more meaningful, it is failing miserably. It is that very attitude, IMHO, that has lead us to the present situation where meaningful death does not exist unless your character -never- gets back up. Shrugging it off, neglecting the system of the world and lore (yes, two different things but very much hand in hand) has only lead to a degradation in the RP value of Death.
Raise dead, as has been echoed numerous times, is meant to restore the soul to the body. The soul left at -10 hp. Seriously, if you want to call it a super duper Med-kit and invent a new process, IMHO, to cheat death, then rename the scroll or release a secondary one that has a more appropriate name. To use the name Raise Dead is to say you were Dead. Simple as that.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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Nekhy
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 21:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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Well, if you think it's failing miserably, that's fine. But someone else thinks the soul leaving body several times on a hunting trip, only to be returned several times (with a spell that in PnP costs a lot to cast) cheapens death.
Both are just as correct, because it boils down to what means more to you as a player. Amia's always been about live and let live in many RP interpretations. Have a little faith in your fellow players and allow them to make the choices that mean more to them and their characters, and the favour shall be returned.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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Glyph
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 21:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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I am beginning to agree with nekhy, to be honest its not worth arguing anymore at any rate. I still however agree with tormak and my statement about divine magic, if you start changing small things like that next its restoration makes a plaster cast of your arm instead of fixing it, then something else, and so on.
but "to be honest its not worth arguing anymore at any rate."
god i'm quoting myself, I hope the comprimise is worth it.
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Nekhy
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 21:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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Changing small things and improvising is just fine, if it's not completely out there. The rules are there to serve the story, not the other way around.
Naturally, there are situations where the rules don't allow much room for wiggling. But there's plenty of situations where different interpretations do not hurt anything, but enrich the experience for different players in different ways.
It just takes a little situational awareness, as Iron put it so aptly.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 22:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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If you are truly aware of the situation with -10hp, you're dead. But I'll leave it at that.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 23:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: Have a little faith in your fellow players and allow them to make the choices that mean more to them and their characters, and the favour shall be returned. Except it's not, and the players have proven this time and time again. There never seems to be agive unless the get to take first. You have seen it plenty yourself, Nekhy.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Grymia
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Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011, 23:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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I have to agree with Tormak.
I've seen a lot of cool and generally reasonable people on here.
I've also, unfortunately seen situations happen which can bring out the worse, even in me. I can give a more specific example to you if you wish to talk of it privately Nekh although it's not contextually related to this particular topic.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, Mar 27 2011, 0:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well that's just an ideological decision. If you don't expect the best from people and trust them to be just as reasonable as you can be, you really don't deserve anything but the worst they can give you. I've been here a long time and I've yet to see the horrible dark things that seem to have convinced Tormak of the hopelessness of our situation. Considering we've probably seen the same things, it's probably your attitude that shapes how you experience the server culture and other players, not any external reality.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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tsukasa1991
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Posted: Sun, Mar 27 2011, 6:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
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how is this even a heated debate?
the game is about rp. it is an rp server. certain things exist IG as IG items and connotations. death means death. to peasants maybe it means death forever and ever because theyre poor. for adventurers death isnt the last road youll ever walk down. the PCs are special characters in the world for a reason. idk, all i can say is that the way i rp it is that if i see something IG i take it at that. if i can come up with a nifty way to utilize the item without it being immersion breaking i will.
example, i would not use Raise DEAD scrolls as "bring them out of their semi, post combat coma" scrolls. read dead means raise DEAD. you cannot return the soul of someone who has not died. therefore, wasted scroll. now, if i was to raise someone who was mechanically dead due to pvp or some such but it is agreed apon that the person is only KOed not dead, a raise dead scroll could be used but ignored as ooc mechanics, as raise dead is the thing to reverse the mechanics of the game. perhaps some lengthy rp with bandage kits or herbs would be used after, idk, im making this all up. in pvp its a little easier as the pvp allows raising of the person for free but i still rp it as reading a raise dead scroll and i emote that.
people who say that pve is okay to say that your death was just a KO i say you can go right into a fire sir. if you die in pve you dont really -have- to rp it if your alone because noone is there, but remember someone COULD be watching. i do that sometimes, just go invisible and watch someone rping. if i find them to be interesting ill rp with them, or maybe ill be setting a trap which will lead to some rp, whatever. if i saw someone die, respawn back to the point of death and keep on fighting without any rp i would instantly jump in and say something IC about it. if they just ignored me i would say in a tell that they should be ic. if still nothing well i would report them. everything is IC no matter what, solo hunting for loot and exp is fine but if someone comes along dont you dare ignore them. you dont have to instantly join up with everyone you meet on the road but you can atleast make some idle chit chat. people totally have just walked by me and not said a word, ignored my IC rp and left for no reason. it breaks the immersion into tiny pieces when it happens.
i really think there needs to be a hard dm ruling on what is ok for rping death and respawning. i have pretty strict ways of rping these things for myself and i would prefer to have that reflected in the ruling. infact im very happy about the gold cap being removed lately, just the other day i was ambushed by some silly beetles and i almost bit it and had to dive into the shadow plane portal to escape. it was kind of exciting not knowing how much gold i was going to loose if i did die. if only there were more consequences to dying in game. i would have the pc deleveled to lvl 1 for like 60 rl minutes or something. it would stop farming the monsters and make pvp actually meaningful. i know it cant be done mechanically because of the dragon desciple class and such things but it just goes to say how much im a masochist for this sorta thing. some people might not find it fun but rather tedius to have to actually... idk... rp on the server instead of just grinding all damn day...
_________________
Plays-
Maggot Bucktooth (Retired)
Giando Paladrious (Retired)
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Nekhy
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Posted: Sun, Mar 27 2011, 14:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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Well, you know by now I'm a hippie and my glass is always half-full, so I'm not going to give into the despair that we have nothing but asshats and troublemakers, who seek nothing but to destroy the enjoyment of others by abusing every liberty granted. Sure, there's a few who will do it, but it doesn't mean everybody, or even the majority is doing it.
It's a simple choice to make whether to shape your view on the community based on the good players or the bad players.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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