...I really enjoy that amia is an -easy- server, And not entirely a Hardcore super-duper masochist server. The raise dead system works fine - It's our(the players) attitude towards death that is wrong.

Think of killing another PC like rape Rp, That'll sure get you squirming at the very thought and perhaps give you a little respect towards death?

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

It's still an RP server though, charging in and getting limbs hacked off/ actually dying should have more consequence instead of the current chuck an easily obtainable, cheap piece of paper at a dismantled corpse and move on thing.

You know, you're right. But since nobody can agree on a mechanical consequence that can be implemented or even that it is needed, players are going to continue to act as though such consequences are optional. They see that they can finagle their way out of it, so they do.

The key to this discussion is: 'Can you have consequence but still have fun?'

Obviously you can have fun without consequence but as the rules developed by D&D show, consequence means that you can extend that fun by a factor of twenty. For example, if there was no concept of hitpoints or damage, your character could die at the DM's discretion during any battle in which they are injured. That's a rather extreme consequence, but if there isn't a lesser one available, you can only hope that he says, "No, you're fine you just need bandages and some bed rest."

With hitpoints and damage, your character only dies if they take enough damage (consequence) to put them below the point of incapacitation. The DM isn't going to let you off so easily if you're unlucky enough to die when the rules so you do, but it's also less likely to happen because you're less likely to take silly chances when your hitpoints are low. This helps things move along without it seeming like the DM is going easy on you for the sake of the story.

How does this help?

Well, Raise Dead means that even when you take silly chances or die from choking lag, there are ways for the party to keep going and continue the fun. It costs the party a little under two thousand gold, but that is not really as big of a consequence as death was. So basically, the consequences of damage and death or greatly mitigated.

If you were to make it more difficult to raise party members from the dead, you would not really extend the fun by any huge factor. Whether you make the gold cost higher, or make the scrolls harder to come by, the overall effect is to greatly mitigate the fun for everyone.

So the best thing is to choose a middle road where there is some additional consequence but there is also some fun too or not too much mitigation of fun.

I don't know a lot about the lore of raising or resurrection, but it seems to me that taking an extra few minutes to perform a ritual (two of which the player character is already non-raisable anyway) is not a huge hardship. So you could make that a pre-requisite to either, and all it involves on the part of those doing the raising is maybe some re-useable placeables and speaking a few words. Doing it right is not going to kill the fun, and having to buy some spawnable placeables (that you only need to buy once) is not going to break the bank.

I disagree. I think it would be more fun if death was something to be avoided. Not just in PVP, but also PVM.

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It already is something to be avoided. Lots of people go to great pains to avoid having to respawn. This is not exactly news.

If you've got a better suggestion, I'm listening.

None of this discussion is really worth having when the DM team in whole doesn't see that there is a problem in the first place. This is far from the first time we've had this come up, and the same ideas get repeated, then eventually it goes to the end of the pile, simply because no one other than the players who make these threads actually care about implementing anything of the sort.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

It's also because nothing solid and implementable gets agreed on. If you all formed a committee and turned the discussion into real actionable steps, it's kind of hard to ignore.

death is better avoided, but unfortunatly there is also a great monster and its name is lag.

ie: some deaths cannot be dodged, and having zero option to return other than loss of xp is the single most lame thing about nwn.

Averaged out over time, you probably make a lot more gains on the XP front than you do losses. If you don't already factor the possibility of losing XP into your expectations, you kinda should. And hey, at least you've only lost one-tenth of the XP needed for a level. There are some servers where respawning means it's back to the start of the level.

I am no big fan of losing XP because of respawning, but it serves as a reminder that isn't quickly forgotten - chug that potion, run sooner, or for goodness sakes let the guy in full plate with the tower shield go in front. My character will live longer if I don't screw up so damn much. Lag death is unfortunate but rare enough that I simply have write it off as one of those things.

Note: Dms are players just as you are. But they also help others with DMing.

Tell me, cause I don't know. Is there any DM here, who is only DM and not player? Or doesn't anymore play on the playerside?

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Beldan'aun d'Tinnerai

Usually on other servers, DM's aren't playerside as well, because it leads to bias and metagaming. It would be foolish to think that their opinions don't carry most of the weight of what gets changed. They tell everyone to stfu when it's already on their private forum where they make their 'balancing' changes.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Drop it, Needled. If you hate Amia so much nobody's forcing you to play here with us horrible DMs. But stop polluting the topic with that BS.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

How is it BS? you've banned one of your previous DM's for doing it. I'm merely pointing out the obvious, so the wheels don't keep spinning in the same direction over and over. And that conclusion you made about your DM team isn't one that I currently think. However, the balancing team, that's another story.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Needled, you've really been like..over the top pissy lately. I don't post much, but I read a lot. You can PM me if you see an issue you would like addressing, but please keep it off the forum?

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

It's BS because you're hogging the topic with that crap, whilst the time could be spent on something constructive. Anyway, I asked you to drop it and you didn't. Enjoy your days off.

And congratulations for getting a forum ban from the DM who almost never hands them out.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

What do people think of my idea?

What if raise dead's were still around, but the player being raised takes the xp and gold penalty when they are being raised?

This would stop the dead people waiting in entry, the weird RP around death, not teleport the dead corpse back to the nearest city(which is plain odd) and have the penalty in place.. perfect?

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

bad idea.... you cant refuse a raise so.... I kill you, raise you, kill you, raise you...KILL YOU SOME MORE AND RAISE YOU!

you are now at zero gold and at starting EXP for the level.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I'd say Yossarin is about it, to my knowledge. Maybe Nekhy.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

...Why is this not a good idea? I ask myself the same thing and couldn't find a reason. Unless it would be hard to script or something.

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

Because it's not. Pay attention to the topic and read the 5 rebuttals about why its a bad idea.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

My suggestion is on topic and gives reply to this -very- first post and my suggestion on how to put clerics(paladins and other like classes), in a position to be more appreciated. They being the only ones that could use scrolls without chance of failure.

"Because it's not", is a little vague Torm. I don't see where it was commented on. Would you quote what you was talking about for me?

If your refering to the flaming, I didn't start it or participate. The guy that did, has been dealt with from what I understand from a previous forum post.


Idea's already given a reason against:

Gold Loss:

so I'm guessing gold loss won't resolve the issue

Take scrolls out completely: would be harder for new players to level.

xp loss: kill raise, kill raise, kill raise..prolly not the best idea lol.

"Fatigue" When cast from a scroll, it's "raw" healing not the caring touch of healer. Plus the toon is just short of death when res'd by one. It -could- be seen as a tramatic experience even from the most reknowned of Heroes.

Option 1.
percentage scroll failure
Reason against: Doesn't target toons endurance

I have been thinking hard on this, it's feasable, but not as exacting as it should be concerning different toons endurances.


So instead of making a scroll having a percentage of failure, what would be even better is;

Option 2.
Toon Saves vs. Death -5/raise with Scroll(non healers)
Reason against: None that I can see lol

Make the toon roll a fort save vs. death with -5 cumulative(per server reset) to the roll everytime they get res'd by a scroll. That way the scroll doesn't fail, they do. That would also account for individual characters endurance.

Splitting the Raise timer seems like that would be easy and inspire roleplay.

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

Because it is a fucking spell, and you are dead ergo there is no saves going on. A spell is a spell, it does what it does.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Corpse roleplay: "..."

Most simple way to fix it right is the way to fix anything. Easiest way to do that: No entry raises. Uncap gold penalty on respawn. /done, at least imo. Which I already stated.

Attemping to control other's rp with systems never works. Its a mental thing, you don't fix it that way.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Alright, I can see your arguement but it's not a [never put there] spell I'm talking about. It's the body's condition near death, -after-, being raised by a scroll. That "condition" is what I was talking about making the save against, when a scroll is used.

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

IT doesn't matter what your body's condition post spell is., beyond "Alive and no longer dying". It is explicitly stated that the spell raises you and makes you NOT DEAD. This is what the spell does. You are not raised and then die 3 seconds later from bleeding. You are raised NOT DEAD. Once again, the spell does what it does.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

How about adding a supernatural (no rest or dispell cures) effect as debuff for x minutes after you raise, and as permanent (like curse) that could only be cured with valid spell, that would cost money, or a friendly cleric near by. The x would be CL or ECL. And I'd suggest the debuff would be 1/2/3 ability scores, depending of your level and possibly leveldrain for the epic levels WITH the 3 reduction to ability scores.

Maybe not the best idea, but any ideas how to improve this?

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Beldan'aun d'Tinnerai

Hey, you could reduce exp gain by 50% on any char who died for x minutes? Unless raised by cleric or paladin? Also apply that to respawn as well.

Unless x is fairly big, there's no point. If it is, people will whine and complain endlessly (on a scale far larger than this thread) until it is scaled back or removed. That goes for both the above suggestions.

Why not just have time penalties based on the grade of revival?

Raise Dead scroll or item: Six to eight minutes.
Raise Dead spell: Four minutes.
Resurrection spell or item: Two minutes (this is how long characters currently have to wait).

This means that it's somewhat worthwhile for clerics in the party to prepare Raise Dead and/or Resurrection, if it'll get the party rolling quickly. If there isn't a cleric in the party, you have to wait longer.

but would it be a debuff, so could they not just rest or debuff from rest menu to get rid of it, or if not, what if the person ran up started using raise scrolls on living people, would they get 50% less Exp?

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Is it sad that the first place my mind went when I saw this revive again was:
"whoop, someone rolled up a cleric and wants to feel important in the party dynamic..."

Luckily that doesnt -seem- to be the case. While I am glad to see folks wishing things were different IG and figuring out mechanics and whatnot here on the forums, I simply wish to say that it is all a waste unless you get in game and start impacting the view on death via RP. Posture, scheme, and script out here all you want, but the attitude on Death won't change without RP to back it up/alter it.

For every alteration to the 'punishment,' people will find a way to adapt/cope, and the frustration with it 'not being enough' as it is will never go away. It is simply how things will go without IG actions/RP taking priority over the stuff out here.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Add a -5 penalty to saving throws, AB, AC, 30% arcane spell failure plus 10% movement speed decrease for 30 mins (perhaps less?) for people who are raised by other means than Resurrection.
It can't be prematurely removed by scrolls or rest, only with a Greater Restoration spell cast by a cleric.
Hmm.. perhaps add the option to have a character lose the penalties when visiting a healer NPC (those that are scattered over the place) for a suitable sum of gold. Say 1% of ones gold stash (no caps).

It would pick at the economy of the wealthier people, if they are in a hurry to get better and wish to ditch the aftereffects of being risen and the rp that could follow. Entering a fight after being risen without having a cleric nearby would be possible, but one would be weakened considerably.

Perhaps allow the arena heal fountains to remove the effect as well, for those who enjoy tournaments. Only works on people who has been killed in the arena area, so people won't abuse it and people can rp that the opponent is knocked out instead of killed.

Hehe, might be a bit troublesome to script perhaps, but it is an idea nontheless.

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drop con to minimum for 5 minutes to simulate being unable to breath because you just died. quater from nothing has put forth the most sane idea so far.

ie: you are now in shock, try not to die again

As far as I know if you use a Raise Dead scroll on someone who isn't dead, it won't do anything anyway. It's a wasted scroll.

What I was getting at was that people would quite probably make a twenty-page complaint thread about getting 50% less XP or being debuffed in some way that isn't easily fixed for thirty minutes after being revived. So there's not really much sanity in going down that road.



Cue a twenty-page complaint thread about the mean and nasty debuff that only clerics can cure.

I mean I know they're basically raises on legs, but you don't have to make them godlike.

-_- read my other 15 complaints.

ed: also greater restoration is a level 7 cleric spell, where as raise is level 5. so, you'd need to be at least....level....14? cleric, to raise people.

correction, 13 CL of cleric.

Since those greater res scrolls, or whatever they are have already been taken out(or so I was told), I'm really liking both these ideas compounded. This would be more along the lines of the "death/raise" experience, but it's actually IC, step by step effect of it, so you can rp that condition.



lol ie. "...a dragon just grabbed you and chomped on you a couple of times then spit you out, but other than that your juuust fine. Try not to move around to much and we'll -try- to get that armor off."

_________________
Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare