Removing names could be interesting.

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*shrug* Do whatever. If we remove names though, I wonder how many will confuse us two, Tormak? I went off in there a few times >>

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Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011

Do not remove my name or my identity from my posts.

I change my mind, I guess. Mostly it was just the posts like "lmfao I called it"... but... well, they will just shoot the messenger anyways, s o just leave them as they are. It doesn't matter what my post says.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Just noticed this from Hammer's PM... Ummmm. Edonil is a brand new drow city (third or fourth big update that they got during my time as a DM, too, so that's about one big update every one and half years) that's actually still being developed, if they just put a little IC work into it like everyone else, and are in contact with the devs and DMs about the changes. Well, some of the houses did, like with the captured NPC guards. But the UD is probably the place that has gotten the most revamps of cities on Amia. We had Udos Dro'xun, then we had Ultrinnan's first version, then Ultrinnan's posh & expanded version, and now Edonil to be everything Ultrinnan wasn't. Not to mention the UD requires more from the devs than just building a city, it requires building entire caverns and geography to meet the particular conditions, in order to make it playable. The drow have gotten, on average, much more dev attention than any other single group of players on Amia! I should know, given I've worked on most of those projects (except I didn't build Edonil, only done updates to it).

I seriously don't think I'm the one being unreasonable here. I'm simply dividing the slices of dev work cake equally among the playerbase, so everyone gets enough. But the drow don't deserve more than others. Edonil was put into the module last summer (August or July, something), it's not time for a new city yet.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

I'm very curious to see what the players involved in all this have to say about this because DM/player conflict (specifically drow) is something that I'm approached about quite often and is something that I consistently get confused about. I've already concluded a lot and would like to be able to understand even more about the drow OOC/IC society. Even if this devolves into a flamefest (the risk is high), I think it's great to try something that hasn't been tried before for all of this.

First of all, you can see that I brought up the idea of showing our hand in this, mostly because I, in my infinite wisdom and experience, knew what the outcome would be in advance. Therefore you may consider this one giant middle finger to those of you who said, "The DMs dreamed this up just to fuck with us."

Secondly, I hope it gives you proof of the fact that we actually take your requests to impact the world and put them into action. It can't be helped if you lack the common sense to comprehend the consequences of your actions. I also hope it casts the opinions and attitudes of different DMs towards your antics, so you may consider this a pretty good example of how we feel and think about you (individually, though not as a team, per se).

Third, I hope you see what your OOC backbiting and bitchery against one another is doing to you. This thread we've made public is like a small road map to hell bought at a convenience store on the edge of apocalypse.

Because I am mostly rageposting and venting off immediate feelings in the topic earlier, I should add that no faction gets to demolish cities just like that on Amia, this isn't some drow-specific thing. You don't waltz into Kohlingen or Cordor with bombs and quakes without discussing first if the devs have time to deal with the collateral damage or not. It's out of other ongoing projects to fix stuff so people can play again, and you can bet that we got plenty of ongoing projects scheduled all the time.

Don't really have much else to say on the topic, as the rest doesn't affect me or the players I'm working for in module projects.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

I'd like a little something here, for all those people that thought that the old plague plot was a mindless trololol attempt on my part. It's old lore now, so it really doesn't matter if I put it out here.

What many of the drow players seemed to have thought my effort was: U haz plag, u sick nao, lololololo, it iz dedli an mysteriuz.

What it was:

This is the initial lore (for my own use, to -clearly- define the exact mechanisms of the "disease") written up before even starting the plot. We -always- put effort into our plots, if we decide to run one, contrary to what we've been accused of at times.

Edit: It contains some old typos, but meh.

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"All along the watchtower,
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
,bare-foot servants, too.
Outside in the distance
A wild cat did growl,
Two riders were approaching,
The wind began to howl
All along the watchtower!"

God, yes, I'd been waiting to see that even if I didn't expect it to be under these circumstances.

There was a great misunderstanding which I am sorry for. We stopped the pvp , went back to the Tinnerai house to rp, and then we were asked icly to head back to the temple by drow.
I don't mean to pass the buck, but because I was under the impression that someone else was asking this to be done, then they already had everything set up and assumed the DM was still at the temple.--and never left. (tbh, I didn't even know that this entire time until just now)

The server reset, and quite a few did not come back, including myself because I had to go (I did come back 30 minutes later where I was told there were Yochols driving the Banites out, which would explain why I was under the impression a dm never left) . I'm very sorry about this.


At the time I did not have the sense to double check, which I should have done. I'm also sorry for any headache that this action has caused you and the grief you are receiving because of this in following through with the request of a pc driven plot.

Good luck sorting this out.

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I am the new way to go, I am the way of the future.

Cecilia - Most evil 2011!

Some of you DM's need to pick up a book and start reading DoTU ^.^

Also, you should read the raise dead thread and do something. Whether it be Tormak's suggestion, or god knows, mine, because it pertains to the insistence of needless PvP. Of which I logged off before I knew the inevitably reoccurance happened. The event was okay but not great or particularly enjoyable. 100% due to the players. At least the part I was online for, it seemed everyone was more interested on who to hostile, giving OOC directions on where to go, what buffs they needed, and simply winning the day, rather than engaging with my character back in meaningful dialog. Personally, I find it more enjoyable now to lose; so long as the party aforementioned actually had a reason and good RP behind enacting the final actions. I feel that people have an OOC motivation and dedication to the outcomes. I feel bad for the people who stayed on for rounds 2 and 3 for the random PvP's (so I hear) :/

This is the second event I've been on where it seems like it was planned for months.. (well, I know the other one was, but not sure about this one,) and the other party that's getting inflicted on is aware of the event OOC or whatever, and just happen to be there IC. Unfortunately, since that usually doesn't lead to much else on Amia, it degrades into massive PvP and people getting massively butthurt over losing in a video game.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I suppose the drow would have been happier if id been able to find a horde of gobo's to have involved. They are commonly used in house fights and we know those gobo's arent lolthite. No if there had been anough of them to use some one would complain about that too. The mistake i made and know i made was alowing them into the temple, not who i used in the attack. Its known cannon for drow to put on a battle field what ever they can find to fill ranks, they dont convert them first or try to. Alot of the anger as its been made plain to me is ooc, the banites are known power builders etc, ive heard that more then just they were banites. Ive not been the one with ooc issues in this, i had to go to great lengths to seperate myself oocly so i could go through with what i felt my character would do icly. I am sorry though that the DM's have to get all this hate mail over a PC driven IC event.

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Ilharess Oloth'chu Tinnerai
Faeryl Freth

It is pretty refreshing to see the DM team openly ridicule and insult their playerbase on the server's forums. Not that I disagree that the majority of the UD players are "brain-damaged" and whiny bitches or anything, but it's amusing to see that the players aren't the only ones who view it that way.

What isn't refreshing is seeing uninformed DMs spout bullshit about wanting to drop bans on a single party over PvP that wasn't even initiated by said party. We chased down a running prisoner and then started getting attacked by random drow who appeared like two minutes later while we were waiting to be able to raise the dead runner. It was probably metagamed although I'm completely ignorant to why they might've had IC reason to show up there (baseless metagaming calls, see I can act like a DM too you guys!).

Do you guys just expect us to stand there and take it in the ass when red names rush up to us with zero RP and start trying to knock us down? I mean, we could do that, but since the drow playerbase is "brain-damaged" we could be waiting awhile for that to finish up. Seems to me like you guys just took the d'Vhid's side's word for what happened because they bitched the loudest, whereas the Banites as usual decided to stay quiet and roll with the punches. Maybe we should start crying over every PvP loss like everyone else on the server now? Apparently that's what gets results.

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Being one of the DM's there, I can safely say that you have a very limited scope of what happened, luckyz.

It had nothing to do with who bitched the loudest or who started the whole 3rd round of PvP-fest 2011. What it had to do with was the simple fact that it was the 3rd round of PvP-fest 2011 and every DM involved was ready to move on to helping the rest of the server. One player that you think we took the side of even got a temporary ban for their comments. So, if you want those results be my guest.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

I didn't take anyone's side. I think all of you were being fucking idiots, Tinnerai, X'dV, whatever other house, and Banites alike, in this entire situation. So there you go. None of us took anyone's side. Pay attention here: You all aske d to do things. The extent of our action was picking a day and letting shit go down. That was it, man.

But as Ainyjll, said, if you would like a temporary ban for the attitude you're showing here, which is the same results that the other side got... be our guest.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I take slight offense to the "and Drow alike, in this entire situation" comment.
Some drow purposely steered clear of the entire situation. Some of us do have foresight.

Although it does sound like its been like placing angry badgers in a small box, aka not good at all.

Brain-damaged, lucky. Brain-damaged. If you're going to quote me, quote me accurately! You're as bad as O'Keefe.

Side note: never read DotU, don't even know what it is, but my stance on canon lore is improving slightly after reading all the way through F&P. So Audrey, if that is in any small part an answer to my paragraph about Lolth (which is really just my supposition based upon how she is portrayed in F&P and a healthy dash of my own literary interpretation), feel free to correct me in a PM if you're feeling froggy. That's not a challenge or anything, actually it is an invitation. I'll admit to having a passingly weird interest in the deities and how they are and what they do and since I never actually do much of anything for the UD community it would be good to be more educated about it.

Of course I could pick up DotU and read, but that's not going to happen. That's why I'm asking.

Is it starting to sink in, yet, drow, that although some of us may not like you, we're actually not out to get you?

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

Sorry, that was supposed to say "And Banites alike" as I am generally pretty disappointed with everyone who was invovled her, based one what I saw and was told.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I know quite well you were there, you and Gers made it clear you didn't want to hear anything from either party after it happened. That's all well and good; I'm sure the situation was an even bigger headache for you guys than it was for us, and boy were they bitching hard. I would have paid money to see what their faces looked like on the other side of the monitor. However, making no effort to hear from either side gave you all a limited scope of what happened just as well.



So you don't take anyone's side, haven't heard the whole story (from the Banite side at least, and I doubt from d'Vhid either), and weren't even there for the event for yourself from the sound of it... and yet posts like these are made?





Sounds like another DM that's sadly no longer on the team. Are you sure you're the real Tormak? Posts like these make me wonder "Why on earth would these two single out the Banites in all of this when Gers said after the whole mess he wasn't putting this on anyone?" Was it d'Vhid bitching? Was it the fact that they were dead and we were alive? You claim not to take sides but point the finger straight at the Banites despite knowing jack shit about how the entire situation got so messy. Each engagement was started with ZERO RP by the attacking drow, and we defended ourselves.

You suggested a temp ban based on nothing else other than the factions past history and what you heard from one person's severely flawed perspective. Call what happened idiotic all you want but if you honestly think those comments are fair to the Banite faction and suggest zero bias whether you intend it or not, then I think it's about time to put on that red wig and clown shoes because that's a fucking joke. Good thing it's not up to you or a bunch of fine, civil players would have gotten banned for nothing.

As for my attitude, I'm merely following the rude tone this thread took from the start which wasn't helped by you at all. Go right ahead and test out your banhammer since you seem so eager to suggest it. I think I've made my point.
I'll fix that right up for you.

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I actually wholeheartedly agree with you, and by 'dirty laundry' I meant ditch the feelings that it was ooc motivated and discuss the IC motivations people had.

However, I can see how my post didnt actually say that.

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Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

Apparently the DMs witnessing it in person is a "Very flawed perspective"? You must ride a very high horse indeed to have the one pure view on everything.

When you constantly live up to your past history over and over I will see fit to judge you by it. It is nice that Octavia tried to explain what happened here but your posts, lucky, only prove to me that her efforts in the faction fall on deaf ears towards people like you.... and why I can keep making the statements I do, and being correct about them. I think they are perfectly fair t the Banite faction based on what you did from the presiding DMs' comments. Stop living up to your history and stop repeating it and maybe you will find some of us stop expecting it from you, and asking that you be punished when it happens for the fiftieth time.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

To be honest, I kind of thought the PvPs were RPed.

While I never got to partake in the first raid due to a change in timing for the event I believe, I was there after it.

Subsequently, some drows whom i assumed were from the other house (not tinnerai) started showing up at Tinnerai's doorstep etc. So one got killed and more showed up. A Tinnerai then asked Oct if the Banites were available to finish up the job. That led to the second fight I believe.
I was under the assumption it was all fine of course as the first job was not complete.

So after the handmaiden of lolth stepped in, Tinnerai brought the fallen to Oct in the house and somehow, amongst the fallen was an unknown drow. So he got questioned and he bolted. The order was issued to get him back or kill him and so a few went after him. He got to Edonil i think(just outside the tinnerai cave entrance) before he got subdued and upon which, the other drow house appeared and pvp ensured.

Now, Im not pointing blame on anyone but just saying that the whole process felt pretty organic and IC. It was just RP flowing. Granted, on hindsight perhaps just the ones that were not pummeled by the handmaidens (Akamu, Maal etc) shouldve been involved in the chase.

A high horse comment from Tormak? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You don't even know the names of all the parties involved in this mess, but you presume to know what happened in Edonil and request bans for the Banites and ONLY the Banites?



So the DMs that apparently witnessed the event were upset about not being warned? Gers is a pretty sensible guy, if he was actually watching what happened from the very start he would have known there was little way for us to have warned him. The only reason we were there was because we were waiting to raise a prisoner. We didn't come out for a PvP-Spree, and if any DMs were watching us for anything other than the aftermath, they would have realized this.

It was a flawed perspective, Tormak. That's why this time, when you decided to make a statement, you were wrong. That's why sometimes it's better to let people ride on the high horse and settle for the pony rides for awhile when you're actually completely ignorant. Maybe if you did that instead of crying ban on undeserving players who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, then I might have respect enough for you to word things as Octavia did.

But I don't respect clowns.

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Meh, I don't think it's the other Banite's fault this time, just mine tbh.
I don't agree that they should be banned, because as faction leader I'm the one relied on to check things like this, and I'd rather not have everyone suffer because they were just rp'ing their characters when it was my mistake.

----------------------------------

I just think it's a shame that half of the factions are upset for one thing or another, and many people in the factions (not just people involved in this little discussion here) have taken breaks or quit, and there's so much frustration/hostility that it might as well not be considered rp anymore.

Sometimes things happen in rp that we don't like, and anyone who says they've never been pissed off about something in rp is either a noob or a liar....but maybe it's best to start getting over it, otherwise your rp experience is only going to get worse.
In any rp with conflict, someone always has to have a Wednesday, and occasionally when you do it might get frustrating like this.

The good part is that playing nwn kind of messes up most people's sense of time. Expect in two weeks no one will actually give a shit or mention it anymore.

That's why it's not worth harassing other players, or carrying around some grudge over two characters in a video game. I'm of the opinion at this point that maybe some people should get banned for their own sake for a forced time out, and I guess if I'm included in one of those for breaking some rules then so be it.

It's just not worth it, and then people do or say things oocly that stick for a lot longer than they do ic that actually hurts real people. Not just characters.

This sucks, no one's pleased on any side out of all of this believe it or not, and with drow rp because of the nature of it, it is so easy to get upset, frustrated, and pissed off at people for a very long time, because it's intense rp of scheming and plotting between each faction and inside each faction and the non Drow included.

For what it's worth Drow players, I know very well that the DM's aren't 'out to get you' considering I can name four off the top of my head that I played with/"against" for years and actually love Drow.


Well that's all, just shrug it off as best you can and get back to rp and staying in character, if you can't, take a break for two or three days and chill, because every faction/character involved in that plot lost something important that is frustrating.

We're all in the same boat here at this point in time, but if you just keep it ic, rp your character working through it, you'll make it out with something pleasing to say at the end of all this.

good luck guys.

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I am the new way to go, I am the way of the future.

Cecilia - Most evil 2011!

Can we bring focus back to the main topic which is that our DM's backed your PC driven event up at 100%?
And the sad fact of how ridiculously the Drow player-base reacts towards it? You basically spit the Team in the face after getting what you wanted.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Alright, I tend not to get myself into this kind of mess due to fact it detracts from general fun of the game. But sort of not wishing to keep quiet anymore since the event did what it did.. so following things are what annoy me (also I prefer not to PM dm team, il speak plainly)

First things first. Event:

1. Both sides cheated. Dm Gers specifically stated that there is no resting untill event is done for, or during event itself. Both sides are to blame.

2. Notion that it was "player run event" was not very clear or known. It was said there will be event, declared by dm on public forum. For most of us, it was just another DM event we can join. So I would bid DM team members not to jest or insult players in regards of such. Even if it is plausible to do in regards of some but not most of the players that participated.

3. Event was what it was. It had good deal of roleplay at least form Drow side, since its only one I saw. However, it all died out after the second attack began. That being very sad since some players still tried to keep roleplaying part going.

4. Mechanics of the whole combat and aftermath were extremely... ignored. For few examples... There were two or three dragons in attack on the temple? Even if door is barely large enough for beholders (that attacked as well) to pass trough, let alone them. (no they werent summoned inside) likewise, after the battlefield cleared... I really doubt that remains of the battle could have been raised by "Raise dead" scrolls or spells. And as well, I doubt either side had enough ressurects for what happened.

5. I am very sad to see DM team disappointed as they are, even if due to circumstances it is understandable. However, I still am more disappointed in players, of whom some passed all the measures of courtesy or fairplay because of raging emotions. On one side, from this topic presented, it is obvious "underdark drow" are seen as second class players, but again... after the event it is more than obvious some players are responsible for it by their actions. Such thing is an issue because again, there are players who actually try, and try hard to behave and act accordingly. It makes it somewhat unfair for such.

6. This one is going to players... For sake of all the things... stop the goddamn saying of who should or would do what. NPCs (that includes from ant on the floor, over your house guard to the gods) act as DM team says. No more, no less. I saw it too many times... "guards would do" or in wake of such "lolth would do"... If it didnt happen, and dm is about, they wont. Its a server rule. Read and obey. If in doubt, ask and do not argue without proper facts to back it up with.

7. If you have issues with DM team, player or player group. Settle it out in private, if unable to, avoid same, or avoid place they play at.. or leave. This goes for DM-s and players alike.

8. If you are annoyed by how things went, or how you failed.. be at least courteous enough to go away silently... do not blow things up before you go away. It tends to leave mess for rest to clean up without any need for such, and sort of makes it harder to seek forgiveness if you choose to come back.

9. No, I will not leave, I will try to fix and rebuild. Be it the house, city, or goddamn reputation drow players have. (write that down in your char bio or something... it should be your new motto)

I think its all I had to say for the moment.

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I can be found as:
Tess Marbury - Girl from luskan
Erth'dar Songspinner - Drow bard
Celador Moonhelm - Elven merchant
Garambar of Hillsalar Hall - Dwarven sage
Moraina - Grumpy Monk

Drop it, luckyz, drop it. This isn't what this thread is for and you're getting dangerously close to being outright rude. You and Tormak can go back and forth all you want, but do it in PM's or on Messenger, don't clutter this thread with it.

To be honest, this isn't even really about the PvP, either. That was a pretty open and shut case. The real issue is seeing "THANKS FOR DESTROYING THE DROW!" and "I HOPE YOU DMS ARE HAPPY!" tossed through the DM channel, receiving PMs from multiple players about how this is all our fault and we are such wicked and evil people for doing this to them.

That's what it's about. This whole thread is to maybe help some of you see the light that we didn't plan this out. We didn't orchestrate this attack. We're not "letting the Banites take over Edonil". We're not "letting" anything happen. The players are. We were completely reactionary to events set in place by players. All we did was set a time that was good for us to watch and bring the environment to life.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

I wouldn't say drow players are second class, considering they had 2-3 and then 4 DMs overlooking their event. They have their own subforum for the area and then theres a whole bunch of private forums for their house factions (When some of them might just be compiled of alts.) They also have at least one DM dedicated solely to underdark roleplay. I'd say that's some first class treatment, personally

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And this. I hope this topic has at least illuminated why some DMs refuse to plot anything in the Underdark, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few more choose to leave you in the dark (get it?)

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The whole 'drow players are marginalized by the DM team' thing has started to grow a little tiresome as well as ring a bit insincere. It's like Silent said. There were two or three DMs on for this event. People that were using their time to try and help the drow players have fun. That's more than most factions ever see for any event.

But it seems that's not quite enough. Rather, some people seem to think that it's a reason to bitch at those very DMs. I didn't think this attitude of the drow players was appropriate, back with the Ultrinnan plague plot, ran by Templar, and I don't agree it now. It's selfish, immature and outright insulting, in my opinion.

After reading all these pages, all I can say is that I find myself agreeing with what Tormak and Yoss said, for the most part. And, honestly, I'm curious to see which DMs will continue to be willing to dedicate their time and patience to the Underdark, after this new fiasco. If I were in Gers's shoes, which I'm thankful I'm not, I would refuse to have anything to do with this section of the playerbase, henceforth.

I think some people should stop and take a good look at what they're doing. 'We've invested 'n' months into Edonil' isn't an excuse. The DM/dev team has invested just as much time and effort, though some seem to take that for granted.

I like to say, I don't need a thank you for investing my free time into the entertainment of others, but I also don't want people to spit on me for doing so, if things don't go exactly as they wanted. I think it's quite a reasonable expectation. I'm not out to screw anyone, after all, but genuinely enjoy making as many people as possible happy with this game. It doesn't do me any good to screw them over purposefully.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

Reasons I guess for the continued PVP past the first one, only taking a shot in the dark here.

1 quite literally everything and one was killed in the first pvp for good or bad...who icly did the raising that aloud the following events?
2 drow showed up in tinnerai cavern A) drilling or something into house wall 2) laying traps outside the compound (that was ordered dealt with so if those people ran back to temple to escape it explains second round in the temple)
3 how a drow being questioned opened a door and ran off when door keys had icly been changed i dont know but it resulted in me pointing after him and saying kill him. If the other house some how just happened to show up in the tinnerai cavern as this other drow was trying to escape, obviously no way around that was going to be pvp. If that drow had not managed to open the door when the other house had shown up outside of tinnerai it would have obviously been another fight. So the third "pvp" fest isnt tinnerai or banites fault. Either the other house was acting oocly to come help one of its members or the house was icly coming to tinnerai, either way would have been a fight.

All goes back to the number 1 item. With everyone dead who did the raising that let this go on and on? As far as resting i wasnt aware anyone had including myself untill the first battle was over and we were all back inside tinnerai and i considered the event over. Rp began and i was pleased to have a Bloodbeard visit, during which the tinnerai structure came under attack and i realized the event must not be over.

Really though assuming there are servivors and an intact chain of command a battle does go on for more then one fight, usually the attack, counter attacks and clean up operations that follow so my assuming it was concluded after the initial fight was rather silly i guess.

Hostilities between d'Vhid and Tinnerai arent over but as far as i'm concerned they are over in edonil, meaning the main city. After seeing d'Vhids intentions here i know now they are willing participants and i no longer feel badly (oocly) about fighting with them as i had. I never got their serender or we will attack you thing mentioned here after killing their guards who were guilty of restricting access to lolths temple, unless you were d'vhid. If i had all of this would have started then.

I thank the DM team for its involvement, there were 3 dm's involved and thats quite the commitment. This was player generated and essentually ran. The forum post about the heads up was gers siggestion and my agreement that it wouldnt be right to just attack a faction base in total surprise and it be undefended and wiped out because no one knew anything, faction bases are a big deal. It was in keeping with a serprise attack to an extent in that the target and exact time werent anounced. It was our attempt to give some measure of fair warning. I feel this has generated several future avenues of rp for a variety of factions. If they cant see it because something they may have been working on that moment has been stalled, i'm sorry for them.

editNekhy I never expressed intention or proposed any plans that would have endangered Edonil itself. Ive no desire to take it away from everone else and tinnerai has always had a vested interest in guarding the commoners who inhabit it. We are still waiting on a trash can we asked for like 7 months ago lol I know youve been busy actually it was so long ago i think it was disco we asked for one.

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Ilharess Oloth'chu Tinnerai
Faeryl Freth

Bjorn said a lot of my thoughts with a more informed point of view, but I'll sum them up quickly:

- Hash your issues out with whomever it is in private.

- Be thankful you've gotten the attention you have.

- Please, everyone just try to chill a bit.

- In regard to Lore, a DM trumps anything a book says. Especially a book that's not even FR (Sometimes I need to get a bonk on the head to remember this as well but usually it's not needed to be a hard bonk). Honestly, as an example Yossi's who's chimed in on this thread a couple of times has done a GREAT amount with interpreting and filling in lore gaps. IMHO, if he ever built his own completely seperate world I'd be curious to see what he does with it. And those of you who say 'Oh but this is Faerun and blah blah blah' ..

Again, go back to the first part of this point. DM > Book. The books work as a great framework. But, the DM's are the ones running the server and the campaign. They're the one's with the plan or lack thereof. Heck , they weren't even the ones who triggered this event, y'all were.

I once had an experience with a Drow character where I had a quit-triggering experience. *In actuality the move and all that was done was legit I was just frustrated to heck, so yeah I left Amia , which had it's ups and downs but I'll save that for another thread* . Talking with the player? They aren't a bad person and I actually got to getting along with them.

- The DM's aren't out to get you. Or, if it seems like it at this point it's because this isn't a singular incident of frustration with DM/Drow relations, and the DMs are fed the hell up I'd hazard. I'm understanding this has been a longer going issue. The idea of Underdark Drow become a Platnium race is quite compelling to me at this point, but then again this might be a kneejerk reaction on my part but kneejerk reactions seldomly come without some sort of stimuli.

And I know you don't need it Nekh but thank you for spending your time and effort to help with this server and keep things moving.

Thank you Tormak, Thank you Yossarin, Thank you Ainjyll, Thank you Gers, Thank you Templar, Thank you Silent, thank you all the DMs who're continuing to work to make this server a better place to the best of their abilities.

Yeah, I've not gotten much requests from the drow so far except for a few specific things, and I don't know what's been requested before. There was a lot of changes in the dev department and well, the topic with all the old UD requests was deleted by the asshat who got on our forums... I'd suggest making a new topic with the little things that need to be fixed, and working ICly on the rest, so that I know what you're working on and the DMs can approve it.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

The Drow of the Underdark is THE Forgotten Realms scorce pertaining directly to play for drow characters by D&D if thats the book your refering to. Its 2nd ed but its also the ground work all other future D&D drow reference books would be built off of. Yes DM's here have the final say in anything, however the DM's here havent written mountains of reference material for drow players to research and study D&D has. So we do our research, study and plan, When we run into something a DM overrides and says doesnt apply to Amia we try to mental note it and forget that bit of cannon doesnt apply to amia. For some of us that have been playing longer then some have been alive its difficult to forget years of rules and information about a race weve grown use to playing for so long elsewere. Its a learning experience for everyone.

EDIT I wish you would just stop posting here seems like every one of your posts is intended to fan one flame or another. After rereading this i see no place where i demand anyone read any thing nor where i bash anyone for not having read anything. I'm not going to create a seperate new post just to address your totally unneeded and unconstructive statement in repsonce to my post. On a humorous note, i cant spell In my opinion your being a suck up, defending DM's where no attack has been made. Everyone knows they arent paid cash, they are compensated though. Probably not neerly enough to deal with all of our squabaling though.

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Ilharess Oloth'chu Tinnerai
Faeryl Freth

As long as our DM's aren't getting paid, I don't think it's reasonable to demand that they read up on every bit of lore there is . ><

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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Fortunately, it isn't being demanded, just recommended, which is perfectly reasonable. Even if for some of us who are literature snobs and prefer to keep our noses in high-minded contemporary fiction it is also unlikely.

Officially, the DM Team does not view drow players as second class. However, I cannot contain my views, as they are readily apparent, and I knew they were even when I suggested this thread be made public. I do see you as "second class" players in Amia. You do not get my attention for a variety of reasons, and I will almost always DM on the surface rather than in the UD. The last effort was thwarted by a Banite player who rallied the UD players against me in a thread here some several months ago where I tried to propose something to help your sacrifice RP flourish. To step in and not even DM but just try to help, and then to be ganged up on and shut out so completely was really the last straw for me.

The fact of the matter is, I don't like most of you people. You're mean, but not mean in a funny or self-mocking way like I am. Half of you seem incapable of separating IC from OOC, and the rest of you don't have the balls to socially ostracize your own rotten eggs, the ones you complain incessantly about, and instead you either try to manipulate the DM Team to do it for you or eventually erupt or burn out. And at the end of the day, your fingers are pointed at the DM Team, and this time, we're showing you how wrong you are to point them that way.

But do not let my comments or my viewpoint bog you down. In spite of all my perceived bitterness, Ironangel actually knows me best when he says I bitch to bitch and hear how emptily it echoes. I know that I cannot effectively blanket statement your community with anything.

If I had my way, the DM Team would go fascist on drowland. We would plat coin your race and micromanage your community and your IC leaders until we find that magical balance of the right players in the right places in the community for you to be able to RP your wicked culture beautifully both IC and OOC. We would outright ban assholes who scream at us in all caps on the DM channel and tell us to our faces that they are not going to do what we tell them to do, and instead do whatever the hell they want to (I'm looking at you, Velthura, when you're back from your ban.) The only thing that has ever kept me from saying "Amia doesn't need a drow community" is the fact that Disco made an incredible UD area and the fact that it would actually be unfair to a few of you who do a damn fine job.

Forgive me for venting here, really, but when I saw the "second class citizen" comment come up and Silent say it isn't true, I had to disagree. As a team, he is right, it is untrue. But from my personal perspective...yeah, it is true. Maybe it'll change one day, but probably not until you find a way to make the UD work for you without villifying anybody, your fellow players or DMs both.

The DMs who do great jobs for you don't see you the way I do, and that's good. That's very good. So give them your love and try to forgive me my learned biases.

I'll start by saying that I mean this in the most neutral possible way:

Yoss I quite happy that you choose not to do drow stuff, not because I consider you a bad DM or anything like that but rather that it would be like giving me power over the characters that have 13 kids and are "good" all the time.
At the very best there would be unwanted changes.


And to the rest of my compatriots in the UD: Remember to think about things calmly and rationally before you act, don't just go off on people about things that really aren't that bad.
It doesn't matter if you think you're right or wrong, take it from me that acting while angry is NEVER in your best interests.

Good advice, at least if your oocly angry. We know what an angry ic drow will likely do.

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Ilharess Oloth'chu Tinnerai
Faeryl Freth

If you ask me, I think allot of players have just forgotten what the point of Roleplay is. Namely to have fun, regardless of winning or loosing.
A simple philosophy of life: "Consider the feelings of others and they will do the same for you, there will never be anything to regret." applies here as well. Easier said then done of course.
My point is that I'm beginning to wonder if there is any Roleplay happening at all recently. I'm not calling out anyone, just saying that none of this seems even remotely fun, least to me.
I've been guilty of the same things of course, and I get upset over things I think are unfair the same as anyone else. I don't think I've ever done much more then rant about it with some of the other players though, usually that's enough to cool me off.

The only real solution I can think of at this point is to have some sort of, qualification exam? For the people who lead factions. Not just those who create one, but also those who take over.
The idea being that if the leader of a faction has a level head on their shoulders and can clearly different shape between IC and OOC, s/he should be able to keep the players in line. Course that is a rather high requirement and may end up with a drastic drop in factions, so maybe a better compromise would be that faction leaders will be held under a much heavier scrutiny then regular players.

I'm basically saying all of this based from the short time that I was RPing with Gurth. Specifically the way he was rather "anal" about the clear defining line between IC and OOC and how we were to enforce it. Few or no corners were cut, regardless of the consequence, least that's the impression I got.
Regardless of the outcome, good or bad, at the very least I can say it didn't leave a bad after taste, the one thing I really hate.

In closing I'd like to point out again that I'm not calling anyone out, or pointing fingers, I'm just putting in my two cents.
I am also listening to My Bloody Valentine and am getting drowsy. So, good night.

This has been discussed before by several drow players I know of. And it would be a welcome change frankly. It would at least move the UD to lore based RP instead of the RP decided by PvP so seemingly the norm elsewhere on the server. PvP has it's place, but lets be honest, it's simply a matter of powerbuilding, and it comes down to a numbers game that makes any RP irrelevant.



And, taking this statement into account... How could one come to another conclusion than it being a DM event and no player action would be allowed to interfere with it? So how exactly does that become entirely IC and player driven without even a chance at turning the outcome? This is still my one and only question besides the event becomming a PvP fest and totally out of control from the outset. Really, which DM can honestly say that they didn't know it would devolve in that fashion? It's not like theres no precident for it.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

I keep seeing all this ooc reasons etc crap. There were none, none! I like hammer the player, had to distance myself to do this because it was what my character would do icly.

IC reasons Oloth'chu doesnt tolerate Velthura any longer (these are her perceptions in most cases from her point of view):

1 After Velthura (the commander) assumed command of Ultrinnan and herself disolved the council she tried to declare tinnerai not a noble house
2 Velthura failed numerous times to cleans Lolths temple in Ultrinnan of the filth that had taken it over
3 Velthura (its suposed ruller) abandoned Ultrinnan to begin on B before ultrinnan and its temple were cleansed as Lolth had herself demanded it be
4 When Velthura did finally agree to help with what Lolth commanded but velthura wanted to involve one of the extraplanor beings we had come to understand had a part in the recent plague and some how that deal would even promote her in the temple (insane and blasphemous)
5 d'Vhid was not represented for the cleaning of the temple and distruction of Ultrinnan as lolth commanded all be
6 Other ilharessen including Vehdra and the matron of a now dead house icly came to Oloth begging her help to kill velthura or at the very least stop her from making so many drow leave the new settlement (edonil) Oloth did not (probably cause of my ooc feelings for hammer)
7 When most recently Velthura was placed in charge of edonil by an element inside edonil and males in particular left icly in droves hurting our numbers even further oloth concluded there was a definet lack of faith in Velthuras ability in that role by edonil's residents and should be replaced.
8 Word reaches Oloth that d'Vhid is seeking keys for Tinnerai, itself an act of war (should note this stired the dm's who said faction keys should only be traded with their supervision and with good rp for it)
9 Velthura who was currently without temple rank after having been stripped of it twice by two different ulyathtallars had named herself Ulyathtallar
10 By claiming the position of Ulyathtallar Oloth felt Velthura had violated agreements lain down at the founding of Edonil that no house would directly control an acadomy or temple
11 By placing d'vhid guards outside the temple Oloth felt Velthura had violated yet another agrement in whish no house would restrict access to any temple or acadomy, when the guards got new orders not to permit anyone in except d'vhid or a few selected by velthura it was a clear violation of this agreement, those guards denied Oloth access to the temple and in fact attacked her.
12 when d'vhid guards outside the temple attacked oloth, d'Vhids guards had attacked the matron of another house, in itself an act of war
13 Word cerculated the Velthura intended to go to war with the banites, one of the only 3 factions who would assist edonil if it were to need defended, our own forces so ragedy it no secret even to magthere that we can not defend our own city alone. Velthura's war with the banites would have gotten their allies angered as well and spell the end of edonil, dont pick a fight with a superior in strength and number force, bad leadership

When i remember more of them I will be happy to post them so you can consider to whimper about all the non existant ooc motivation in this and how there was no rp or ic reasons for an attack.

On another note, had the tinnerai cavern entrance been caved in successfuly without damaging Edonil a few rock to muds later this all would have kicked off alot sooner. Some materials save alot better then others when it comes to crushing so there would have been a fair chance the tinnerai complex had servived a cave in, in which case again this would have all kicked off sooner. Though i wont get into detail here what exactly makes up the tinnerai complex rock substances are the least used and mostly in a decorative capasity.

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Ilharess Oloth'chu Tinnerai
Faeryl Freth

Player events are not exempt from the rules. Hammer attempted to browbeat several DMs including new ones into doing what he wanted and then threw a crybaby fit and said he'd do it and the rules didn't matter when he was told no. A fitting punishment is to thus miss the event that he was so desperate to manhandle.

But he wasn't banned so it doesn't matter. You have no conclusions to draw because really you'd never have seen this to begin with in any sort of circumstance even RELATING to ordinary.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I'm going to assume that Grey was responding to what I said, and if not just disregard the following.

I was not calling anyone out, certainly not you Grey. I mean I know next to nothing about what's going on in the UD, how could I possibly call any Drow out. I'm practically clueless.
I said what I did based off reading some of the posts in this thread, namely the ones made before the event itself. Reading the posts, the comments about IC and OOC decisions, most importantly how the DMs just seemed so fed up with with all of it, is what prompted me to write what I did.
I know very little about what happend in the UD during the event, less so about what the motivations behind it were about. At this point, I am quite content to leave it that way.

Yes, I'm still awake, Nirvana popped up on my play list. Can't sleep through Kurt.

Lol, no wasnt you specifically, just as i have more time to review this stuff at work ive notice more n more it was all ooc this or ooc that so i thought it time it was clarified once n for all. To clarify on my absense the week too, we had a murder in town this week so alot of off time has turned into work time, saturations and as now me sitting in a patrol care on the street it happened for visibilities sake. well maybe the perp will happen along and i can arrest him we do know rather we have a suspect.

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Ilharess Oloth'chu Tinnerai
Faeryl Freth

Rationalizations and excuses aside, how does any of this justify any behaviour? Still looks like a continuing attempt to be the victim.

Everyone, including myself, has handled this entire situation badly. However, after a week of bitching and thought on the matter, I'm ready to shoulder the burden of my own actions and harsh words of condemnation. The statement has already been made that all parties involved acted badly, it's true. But as long as Grey didn't do anything wrong IC'ly and it's definately not OOC, then everythings kosher, right?

Anyway, publicly. For Gers, I had some harsh words for you and by extention the DM team in general. Know that it was in frustration, and in no way an assault on yours or anyone else's character, and I apologise for allowing it to be taken as such. If there's anyone else who's toe's i've stepped on, let me know so we can at least reach an accomodation.

And Nehky. From some of your comments it seems that your feeling personaly slighted by all of this. And I wanted you to know for a certainty that you are considered a superstar by myself and everyone I know. You're well loved, even if the message is lost in the midst of all the whining.

I for one would like some thoughts on how the DM team feels would be a way to move on. And what I can do as a player to help.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Well, what can I say to that? Nothing I guess. But from the player perspective, since it wasn't a DM event, was there any way at all to alter the outcome before the event? And if not, can you not see the frustration that might cause?

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

What do you mean "Alter the outcome"?

We as DMs didn't do anything but play the environment. I have no clue what you're asking here. How is there frustration?

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham