AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Was wondering; Why does Tiamat only accept evil clerics? Why not any other class? I haven't seen any other restriction such as this on other sites.
I've seen a group of Dark Druids here: http://www.wyvernsden.net/dasariawiki/i ... ark_Druids

Not sure where it is from but there is a slight connection I see here. Druids can become dragons at the very end. I wonder if you could make a Druid dedicated to Tiamat in this way.

*Puts on flame resistance* Anyone see my idea?

Because Tiamat is a bitch.

Well, yeah thats true.

Lore Thread is the kinda place to ask this sort of thing.

And what do you mean only accept evil clerics? She accepts followers other than clerics. Every deity does. Do you mean why are all of her clerics evil? Well...because she's evil?

If you're asking what I think you're asking, "Why doesn't Tiamat accept druids", I'd guess it's because she's not directly tied to any natural aspect. She a deity of dragons. Not fire, or air, or plants, etc.

The fact that dragons can wildshape into dragons has little to do with them being dragon related at all. A druid can shift into many creatures, doesn't make them perfect to follow the god of that particular creature, just like Shifters.

My guess you can make a druid that venerates Tiamat. There's no limit on the gods a single character can worship or work for. But your druid powers would likely come from another source. Which will be hard to find, as Tiamat's other name is "Nemesis of the Gods." Which as one might guess, means she doesn't have many friends at all, divinely speaking.

According to the Deity System link on the sidebar, Tiamat accepts LN.

Is Tiamat somehow more of a bitch than, say, Lolth or Shar or Loviatar?

Looks like homebrew stuff to me. Tiamat isn't a nature deity. Her domains are Destruction, Dragon, Evil, Greed, Hatred, Law, Scalykind, Trickery, and Tyranny, none of which save perhaps Scalykind are nature domains really. In addition, in every D&D novel/lorebook I've seen, dragons are very much considered unnatural creatures. Hence, it doesn't make sense for her to have druids. As far as dragonshape goes, I'm thinking that's a NwN addition, not canon DnD (much like the Discipline skill), though I'm not entirely sure.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Lore Thread is the kinda place to ask this sort of thing.

And what do you mean only accept evil clerics? She accepts followers other than clerics. Every deity does. Do you mean why are all of her clerics evil? Well...because she's evil?

If you're asking what I think you're asking, "Why doesn't Tiamat accept druids", I'd guess it's because she's not directly tied to any natural aspect. She a deity of dragons. Not fire, or air, or plants, etc.

The fact that dragons can wildshape into dragons has little to do with them being dragon related at all. A druid can shift into many creatures, doesn't make them perfect to follow the god of that particular creature, just like Shifters.

Yeah a bit. Its hard to explain what I'm thinking here. But I may have taken the amiawiki too seriously, but it says she only accepts evil clerics, so you could see how I could interpret it.

I think you are. If the system allows you to make an LN cleric of Tiamat, then you can make an LN cleric of Tiamat. Forget the wiki.

If you're taking it as "all of her worshipers are evil clerics", then yes, you're reading it incorrectly. Or the wiki is worded incorrectly.

But she's not a druid supporting deity as far as I know. Doesn't mean she can't have druids that worship her. Just that the few that do do not get their druidic powers from her.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I think you are. If the system allows you to make an LN cleric of Tiamat, then you can make an LN cleric of Tiamat. Forget the wiki.

If you're taking it as "all of her worshipers are evil clerics", then yes, you're reading it incorrectly. Or the wiki is worded incorrectly.

But she's not a druid supporting deity as far as I know. Doesn't mean she can't have druids that worship her. Just that the few that do do not get their druidic powers from her.

"Tiamat accepts only evil clerics. Tiamat's clerics, like Tiamat herself, seek to place the world under the domination of evil dragons." Yeah I was reading that. But yeah thats what I was trying to say. Not sure if it was allowed. But it was yeah a Druid what worships Tiamat, not getting its powers from Tiamat though.

Ah, well then that needs to be updated then.

If the system currently allows LN clerics then it's likely because some Chromatic dragons can be LN. Namely, Blue, I think. They're the most level-headed of any of their kin, Windy excluded.

But yes, it's completely possible. You just have to worship a nature-based deity in addition. This is the case with any deity. But in Tiamat's case, it's important for you to think why.

Why is this PC focused on both nature and furthering the rightful place of Chromatic dragons on Toril? What could possibly link the two? Does he/she think that the key to Chromatics gaining stronghold is to turn to the natural world, instead of the Arcane which they've indulged up until now? Is he/she a druid that sees dragons as the rulers of the natural world, their elements encompassing the brutal truth of Nature, perhaps even Nature personified, as the Elementals are? Why are they worshiping a both a deity of Nature and a deity who doggedly hates all other deities?

These are things you have to know before you make a character that does something like this. Because ICly, someone's likely going to ask your PC "You're a druid that worships Tiamat....why?" and your character, being who they are IC, should have a dialogue that have led them and their story to that decision.

Yeah. I'll try to formulate something.

Quip:

Evil druids is a weird concept in itself. Evil druids of Tiamat just sounds stupid. Not that I'm against you doing it, but there...well...its like that drow druid of Llolth I once saw walking about in Cordor without a signet ring and no disguise blatantly saying it was a drow druid of Llolth and casting spells and otherwise being an evil git while metagaming the cordor guards and...

...yeah, you get it.

It causes senseless runnon sentences, and is just silly.

Draconomicon wrote:

TIAMAT
The Chromatic Dragon, Creator of Evil Dragonkind
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Five-headed dragon
Home Plane: Baator
Alignment: Lawful evil
Portfolio: Evil dragons, conquest, greed
Worshipers: Evil dragons, conquerors
Cleric Alignments: NE, LE
Domains: Destruction, Dragon*, Evil, Greed*, Law,
Trickery (Hatred, Scalykind, Tyranny)
Favored Weapon: Heavy pick (bite)
All evil dragons pay homage to Tiamat; green and blue dragons acknowledge her sovereignty the most readily.
Good dragons have a healthy respect for Tiamat, though they usually avoid mentioning her or even thinking about her.
In her natural form, Tiamat is a thick-bodied dragon with five heads and a wyvern’s tail. Each head is a different color:
white, black, green, blue, and red. Her massive body is striped in those colors.

Tiamat has many consorts, including great wyrm dragons of the white, black, green, blue, and red varieties.

Dogma:
Tiamat concerns herself with spreading evil, defeating good, and propagating evil dragons.
She enjoys razing the occasional village, city,or country, but only as a diversion from
more subtle, world-spanning plots. She is the villain who lurks in the shadows.
Her presence is felt but seldom seen.

Tiamat constantly seeks to extend the power and dominion of evil dragons over the land, particularly
when her subjects find themselves embroiled in territorial disputes with good dragons. Tiamat
unfailingly demands reverence, homage, and tribute from her subjects.

Clergy and Temples

Tiamat accepts only evil clerics. Tiamat’s clerics, like Tiamat herself, seek to place the world under the domination of
evil dragons. Though most evil dragons honor Tiamat, few keep shrines dedicated to her in their lairs because they don’t
want Tiamat’s greedy eyes gazing at their treasure hoards. Instead, they dedicate vast, gloomy caverns to their deity
and keep them stocked with treasure and sacrifices. Tiamat claims not to need allies, though most believe she
has bargains with many archdevils and lawful evil deities such as Hextor. Her enemies are numerous, including
Heironeous, Moradin, and, of course, Bahamut.

Aye, but that's base D&D and the "default pantheon." Hence the references to Hextor and Heironeous.

I imagine Forgotten Realms' Tiamat, and subsequently Amia's, has no such stipulation. And thus, LN clerics of Tiamat are possible here. That's all that matters.

Ack....it had totally slipped my mind there was a Forgotten Realms: Faith and Pantheons entry for Tiamat when I made that page. I'll go through soon and edit it with FR-canon stuff.

aaaand done.

One Step Rule is a crude and failed 3e attempt at standardizing gods, anyway. It's very possible that the lore of Tiamat doesn't sit well with neutral servants. Gods used to have detailed lists of worshiper alignments (Lolth and LE, for example) but F&P overruled this with the One Step Rule and nothing makes sense anymore. But it's one of those rare changes I don't horribly mind as long as it's used only in the positive way (opening new worshiper alignments) and not in a restricting way (closing the alignments that were previously available even if they fall out of the One Step Rule).

So I go with a combination of F&P and other sources. If Demihuman Deities says Lolth has LE, NE and CE clergy and F&P says she has NE, CE and CN, I will go with the conclusion that she has LE, NE, CE and CN clergy. Doesn't seem like a problem in Tiamat's case, because her clergy alignments fall within one step of LE anyway,

Tiamat has absolutely nothing thing to do with nature and so she doesn't support Druids.

As for her Clerics:
Faiths and Pantheons says LN, LE and NE.
Powers and Pantheons says LN, TN, LE, NE and CE.

The deity system follows the one step rule. Mortal alignments aren't as absolute as those of dragons, celestials and devils/demons, anyway. Got a little wiggleroom.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Tiamat has absolutely nothing thing to do with nature and so she doesn't support Druids.

As for her Clerics:
Faiths and Pantheons says LN, LE and NE.
Powers and Pantheons says LN, TN, LE, NE and CE.

Oh, so I guess they're all good. That makes her pretty tolerant a goddess. Always go with the more inclusive source, IMO, and combine where necessary. The Deity System follows the one step rule like Nekh said, but that's for clarity and simplicity. It would be horrible to check every source for every deity and decide what's the right interpretation. When the deity system was introduced, it was agreed to cut some corners for the sake of consistency and convenience but it shouldn't be seen as a normative lore argument.

But yeah, nothing druidic about Tiamat.

Im fairly certain Tiamat also gives powers to any who follows one of the Nine Devils of hell as their powers cant breach Baator. Shes close to Asmodeous or something and grants all their clerics powers.

Any idea where you read that? Fiends should be able to grant their powers independently, as per the "Worshiping fiends" sidebar on F&P page 8. It makes no specific mention of any current archdevils, but it does mention both demons and devils several times. There's no clear power level requirement mentioned for the fiends to be able to grant powers, either, so I assume your run-of-the-mill pit fiend could do it too.

Early versions of D&D had Tiamat as far more powerful than she is today. Even at one point being the most powerful evil in the Hells.

Even 3.0/3.5, if one is to believe Draconic creation mythology would tend to agree.

When you're the 'first' evil, then...well. You're kind of the most powerful by default.

Candlekeep is a great place to go read about this type of stuff.

Shar is the original evil. And she indeed is the most powerful evil god in the Faerun pantheon -- hell, one of the most powerful gods period at a level 18 rank.

At least from 2.0 and on, in FR, Tiamat as always been a lesser power. Remember that FR specific material always overrides Greyhawk/Core material.

I agree with several points:

No Tiamat druid, doesn't make sense at all. I play a monk of Tiamat and a druid and their rp are totally different. Tiamat would burn all forests if that would make humans evil and her worshipers and she would burn it twice if it brought the chromatic dragons to rule the desert world. It is about power, it is about slavery of anyone that isn't evil and reverent to dragons. At least the amian chromatic draconic rp when there was one, was like that.

She is really freaking evil. Eating human babies in front of their mothers and laugh about it type of evil. Burning a human city with everyone in it type of evil. I don't understand neutrals revering her unless they have something to gain with it. But, Iron is the man for lore, so I am going with him.

The clergy and the alignments I am not really sure, I play two clerics and they still puzzle me with their lore.

Delarwyn wrote:

She is really freaking evil. Eating human babies in front of their mothers and laugh about it type of evil. Burning a human city with everyone in it type of evil.

:O

-IM- that type of evil! Oh goddess!

why isnt tiamat chaotic evil?

Because she isn't.*shrug*

Her Chromatics range through all the evils. they had to choose one. But my true guess is that since she schemes for ways to slight other gods and get a stronger hold on Toril for her kin, she's LE. Just because there's significant forethought that goes into her evil. I don't figure she'd go out of her way to raze a town on land that has no food and offers no benefits to dragons. There's better things she could be doing. Evil things, nonetheless, but with more strategic benefit.

Dragons > All.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Because she isn't.*shrug*

Her Chromatics range through all the evils. they had to choose one. But my true guess is that since she schemes for ways to slight other gods and get a stronger hold on Toril for her kin, she's LE. Just because there's significant forethought that goes into her evil. I don't figure she'd go out of her way to raze a town on land that has no food and offers no benefits to dragons. There's better things she could be doing. Evil things, nonetheless, but with more strategic benefit.

Yep. I agree with this.

Tiamat

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