AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

Uberuce wrote:

Quote:

Solo to 30: If the assassin has HIPS, then yes, it's not too difficult to achieve.
Want to try that with a cornersneaker? Only if your name is Uce.

I don't cornersneak in PvM, and soloing is decidedly Plan B.

Yeah, but if there's anyone uber enough to pull it off, most likely to be you.

Very_Svensk wrote:

74 Min (Sneak included) 86 Top, (Sneak included)
66 Damage Average x4 attacks = 264Damage if you hit all attacks in the first round.

I've got 1d4 + 4 mighty + 1d10 ammo + 9d6 death + 3d6 sneaks + 3d6 improved sneaks.
Get about 50-65 damage per hit. With rapid shot, 4 attacks as well.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

So...if that bard build started as a Tuigan, you end at a nice round 26 STR, and get EWF and EP on bonus feats, plus Armor Skin, OC, DC, and Lasting Inspiration? I'm guessing here...but that's pretty rockin' ass!

I just tested a 22b/4cot/4f (16b/2f/2cot). Greatsword.
I took Durpari but surely theres better subraces for this build.
AC:55, AB:45, curse song makes both better though.
Nice savings aswell, but your somewhat short on spells, mainly hastes.
Lingering song isnt needed with lasting, I wonder if extra music could be missing making room for imp KD (providing one went 13 INT)

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

74 Min (Sneak included) 86 Top, (Sneak included)
66 Damage Average x4 attacks = 264Damage if you hit all attacks in the first round.

I've got 1d4 + 4 mighty + 1d10 ammo + 9d6 death + 3d6 sneaks + 3d6 improved sneaks.
Get about 50-65 damage per hit. With rapid shot, 4 attacks as well.

64.5 damage is right in the middle of that, but with crap AB, you could be doing an average of 300 damage and it wouldn't matter. You only damage an enemy if you can hit an enemy and with 3 +3/4 classes and the -2 from Rapid Shot, you may have a difficult time doing that. You should do well in PvM, but in PvP you'll be lucky to hit on one of your 4 attacks each round.

It has HiPS though Ainj. Thats an automatic +4 AB from flanking and attacks from concealment +1 AB from point blank shot and +1 AB from small size modifier which works from the appearance.2da not the sub-race. In pvp it'll also be negating the tumble/dex/dodge AC of the target.

+1 AB from Good Aim for being hin too? 40 AB with a +4 weapon.
So that's 40 + 2 flanking +2 concealment +1 Small size +1 point blank +1 Good aim +1 Bless + 1 Aid +2 War Cry = 50AB
Flatfoot AC being the other variable, it doesn't seem so bad.

Besides, rapid shot is only activated after paralyse or knockdown.
I don't think the -2AB from rapid shot matters when faced with a sitting duck.

It does when ranged attackers get -4 AB to prone enemies, so that's -6.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

+1 AB from Good Aim for being hin too? 40 AB with a +4 weapon.
So that's 40 + 2 flanking +2 concealment +1 Small size +1 point blank +1 Good aim +1 Bless + 1 Aid +2 War Cry = 50AB
Flatfoot AC being the other variable, it doesn't seem so bad.

Besides, rapid shot is only activated after paralyse or knockdown.
I don't think the -2AB from rapid shot matters when faced with a sitting duck.

I'm not sure if good aim applies because its pre-req requires you to be a halfing which changed to outsider is a tad harder.

A prone enemy is still considered flatfooted Derk which means goodbye 3 - 6 tumble, dex mod if you don't have uncanny and dodge AC which is generally 5 - 20. So effectively you get x Rounds against a downed target for an effective AB bonus of +8 to 27+

Ah, right. I didn't consider the flatfooted aspect of it.

MoshingChris wrote:

I'm not sure if good aim applies because its pre-req requires you to be a halfing which changed to outsider is a tad harder.

I thought you keep the base race starting feats. Not 100% sure though.
Do feats on your sheet get negated when you do not meet the race requirements?
Are tiefling elves no longer immune to sleep?

MoshingChris wrote:

It has HiPS though Ainj. Thats an automatic +4 AB from flanking and attacks from concealment +1 AB from point blank shot and +1 AB from small size modifier which works from the appearance.2da not the sub-race. In pvp it'll also be negating the tumble/dex/dodge AC of the target.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like to rely on HiPS as the keystone of my fighting strategy; at least in PvP. With the prevalence of people with UMD and the easy access to scrolls that can shift a PC to Umberhulk and Dragon shapes, I just don't trust HiPS.

I do see your point, though.

I don't use HiPS ever and would never have a character with that ability either. Its boring. Because of that exact stated reason that you made I never run more than 50 - 70 hide either. If I can't corner sneak then I don't want to have so much gear invested in Hide/MS that I can't make saves etc.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

I'm not sure if good aim applies because its pre-req requires you to be a halfing which changed to outsider is a tad harder.

I thought you keep the base race starting feats. Not 100% sure though.
Do feats on your sheet get negated when you do not meet the race requirements?
Are tiefling elves no longer immune to sleep?

They still work.

If you got the feat it works.

Yeah I just realised that I knew that anyway. Keen sense etc.

Course you did

Its true. Check your nearest animal companion xD.

I'm still trying to kick my '00bah action server' build habits, and backstory and RP are absolutely no issue (I'm a pretty creative fellow). I do have a generic question: it seems every melee build I come up with has an AB ~ 44-48 (with GMW) and AC ~ 50-55. Would this be considered 'typical', or is every idea I have gimped from the start?

If we look at those scores as plain numbers, we can say they're pretty typical for melee heavy sword 'n board builds. However, if we say those scores are after a huge set of low CL buffs, I'd say your build is pretty gimped.

Are those numbers with regular gear and no extra buffs (other than the mentioned GMW)? One-handed weapon? But yeah, typical. WMs get a tad above AB 50, everything else is normally lower but usually bumped up again over 50 by the probable buffs or stuff like Rage.

Strictly GMW, and I figured I was in the ballpark. Thanks.

In the grand scheme of things, how much would 10 spellcraft (total) be worth it? Points are cross class, btw, so I was sinking 20 unused points into there. Skills are as follows, and are for a fighter/rogue/sd

Appraise 8(9), Discipline 32(40), Hide 33(34), Move Silently 33(34), Spellcraft 10(11), Spot 33(35), Tumble 30(31), UMD 25(25)

Just trying to weight the usefulness of +2 saves vs spells. I mean, Getting like +5 and higher is nice, but is +2 really worth it for sacrificing 20 skill points on a character who's closest link to magic is UMD?

No, because a Fighter/Rogue/SD can't get Spellcraft as it's a trained skill. And even if you could, I wouldn't take it, because a level 26 Bard could bring that +2 down to -1.

Naivatkal wrote:

a character who's closest link to magic is UMD?

I wouldn't say a person who can't cast is required to be clueless about magic. A person who can't drive or fix an engine can still know plenty about cars/planes/ships/hovercraft, after all. Just as we live in a world surrounded by powered transport, non-caster characters live in a world surrounded by magic.

What I reckon Spellcraft does in terms of saves is tell you "hurk, Fireball coming, jump into water" as opposed to "hurk, Lightning Bolt coming, get the hell away from water."

Just to expand the point, Spellcraft is like knowing the mechanics of the spell too, the saves representing the benefit of that knowledge. Knowing exactly how the Weave is working(not just the empirical knowledge to know that it is) gives a PC insight into how to better defend/avoid/resist a spell.

"Lightning Bolt coming at me, I better sidestep the moment it arcs a 3rd time, because that's where it'll be the weakest" vs "Lightning Bolt coming at me... Fuck."

Uberuce wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

a character who's closest link to magic is UMD?

I wouldn't say a person who can't cast is required to be clueless about magic. A person who can't drive or fix an engine can still know plenty about cars/planes/ships/hovercraft, after all. Just as we live in a world surrounded by powered transport, non-caster characters live in a world surrounded by magic.

What I reckon Spellcraft does in terms of saves is tell you "hurk, Fireball coming, jump into water" as opposed to "hurk, Lightning Bolt coming, get the hell away from water."

lol Oh yeah, I know that for sure. I wasn't trying to make it sound like that, thought, just was giving a base idea of the class. Tyrus has knowledge of magic and such on a slightly more intimate level, given his past, but is not an actual magic user. That's what I was trying to relate

Dark Immolation wrote:

Just to expand the point, Spellcraft is like knowing the mechanics of the spell too, the saves representing the benefit of that knowledge. Knowing exactly how the Weave is working(not just the empirical knowledge to know that it is) gives a PC insight into how to better defend/avoid/resist a spell.

"Lightning Bolt coming at me, I better sidestep the moment it arcs a 3rd time, because that's where it'll be the weakest" vs "Lightning Bolt coming at me... [removed]."

And yes, this too. Spellcraft would also serve and RP purpose... but I seriously don't think it is that big of a deal. It's not like he's packing on a ton of Spellcraft, and it's not something that would actually get RPed. It's be more of RP flavor that is only really shown as the mechanis (ie the saves).

So, yeah, all in all not that useful in the end, I don't think. Time to spread those delicious skill points around!

Planning a Shadowdancer melee build, and I have room for either Armor Skin or Blindfight, but not both. Which do y'all think?

Hmmmm.... I would say Blindfight rather than Armor Skin.
+2 AC is nice, but I think Blindfight overrules it.
Plus, you should be HiPSing a bunch, so likely will be able to slip out of trouble, ya?

Just my thoughts.

Always armor skin. No contest.

TormakSaber wrote:

Always armor skin. No contest.

+2 AC all the time rules over circumstantial bonuses in every single case.

Blindfight any day of the week.

I disagree!

Blindfight!

Lizzie wrote:

Planning a Shadowdancer melee build, and I have room for either Armor Skin or Blindfight, but not both. Which do y'all think?

Blind-Fight. I would highly suggest you fiddle around the build to include both, though. A melee build should never be without either, unless it's a two-hander.

Book of Vile Rituals - How does one request it? Post a back story? Must you already have the Epic Fiendish Servant feat?

Make a request like any other, we do it all in game, and yes, Epic Fiendish Servatis a pre req.

Okay curious about something.
When using the Druid's Wildshape and Elemental Shape, the stats are altered to suit the animal/elemental's stats regardless of yours right? But the skills don't change?

Also does any of the Druid's forms get bonuses from Equipment?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

Planning a Shadowdancer melee build, and I have room for either Armor Skin or Blindfight, but not both. Which do y'all think?

Blind-Fight. I would highly suggest you fiddle around the build to include both, though. A melee build should never be without either, unless it's a two-hander.

Actually, my dex monk/sd with standard ac over 60 dont really need armor skin, so I guess its up to the build..

Yes you do, because all that 60 AC is rendered useless when caught flatfooted.

Armor Skin AC isn't rendered useless when caught flatfooted.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Yes you do, because all that 60 AC is rendered useless when caught flatfooted.

Armor Skin AC isn't rendered useless when caught flatfooted.

Theres a feat called: uncanny dodge, for that

EDIT: But btw: I of course took Armor skin still, only if I made a mage would I miss out on that..

There is some controversy over whether Uncanny Dodge actually works, but the real issue is that it only keeps hold of DEX AC. Your Tumble AC and Dodge AC all go toodles, so that's 10 or 11 gone, depending on what boots you wear.

When you're caught flatfooted with Uncanny Dodge, you only keep your Dexterity-related AC. Meaning, you're losing all your Dodge still, which will be 11 at the very least. 60 AC becomes a very sub-par 49.

Edit: Ninja cow. I've heard post-Uncanny Dodge II it fails to work properly anymore in terms of keeping your Dexterity AC, but I've never bothered to check if that's true.

Wis, too ,since we're talking about a monk.

I know, I just didnt think this was right:

PaladinOfSune wrote:

..because all that 60 AC is rendered useless when caught flatfooted.

And btw: My dex monk only got her uncanny dodge at lvl 23 or so, and I noticed a huge difference when caught flatfooded in the middle of a battle, I dunno if the difference was only 11 AC though...

There is a huge difference between 49 and 60 AC. The latter just about makes you hard to hit by mediocre AB classes, the former makes you a joke to hit in general.

Thus, if you're flatfooted, the 60 AC is useless, because with 49 AC you might as well be a class that can be actually deal decent damage.

Can you cast spells with expertise/ improved expertise on?
Can shifter spell abilties be maximized?
Does weapon specs and imp crits transfer over shapes?

No yes yes.

It is not the shifter ability you are using Maximise Spell on, though, it's the Druid spell. So if you lack the WIS or the druid levels to cast the spell, it's a no-go.

Does it make any difference if I take levels in a Prc //after// Epic level?

Yep. It can affect your saves and base attack bonus. Look on the wiki for details of both.

Got room for two out of Lingering Song, Still Spell, Brew Potion. 8DEX, Bard12.

Linger/Still only on the grounds that 15 rounds vs 10 rounds is a lot when you're a pansy 12 bard. But that's me.

What does best Ressemble a 'Shadow mage' Really? Nothing in mind to build, since i do not have a comp with NWN anymore *Le sigh* but what classes would be ideal for such?

Think the shadowmages in Tarkuul

Nothing, because they're undead and nothing you could create a facsimile of with a player character.

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

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