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Hey folks whom art of the knowing-ness.

I want to know more about monks, specifically things lik rituals and acts.

I don't know, meditating in a dark room for three days or whatever and why they do it.
Also I am needing information on How Ki works, and how one -becomes- a monk.

Thankyou

Even in my state of non-knowingness I'll say this:
I've never went into monk lore, ever. Never ever shwever. When I played Thilidar, or any other of my numerous monkies (Including Radilith, who is barely a monk, but still!).

This idea is, monks were created I think in the AD&D period, -wiki search time- wait, found it!

Wiki told me:

The original monk character class was created by Brian Blume, inspired by the fictional martial arts of the Destroyer series of novels.[2] The monk was introduced in 1975's Blackmoor supplement

So, lore? I don't know really...

I can tell you now that I know more about monks, is that all monks are focused on one thing and one thing only:
Their law is their philosophy.

If their philosophy for example, being evil and whatnot (Iron fist, Long death, etc, etc) then they consider those things their law and act upon it. Each, as you asked, having its own rituals.

Probably concerning what its philosophy is, and if it's very god-related, I would go god-wise lore for it. Like Sun Soul monks and Iron-fisty, against Long death and Old Order, who might care about gods (or the god of death in the Long death thing-y) but don't consider them the main idea of their order. But the philosophy behind it.

Being such, since philosophy is the main drive of the monk, he'll get all his ideas on what to DO behind it.

But basically, all monks are fist-kicking brawlers. So, they all probably meditate, train with ninja-like-weapons and fists, run around fast and drink massive amounts of ale with Tsn and his new brewery.

Last thing is Ki. Ki is awesome, but it's not really anything that is lore-wise explained I think, pretty much anywhere.
Well, fourth edition it's psionics. But meh, no one listens to that.

Thilidar's and my own view on Ki up to now has been the fact that monks train the mind and body to work as one until they are in perfect balance. Right?

So Ki is the life energy of the monk (Or the power of the soul held by positive energy, as Thilidar calls it).

Since wiki can't seem to find for me anything else, I would go with "What Your Monk Thinks and Does". Usually though, I would bet many orders would have different explanations for the use of Ki, the "rites" monk have, although I doubt they have any offical ones besides meditating, and so on and forth.

Get some Oriental Adventure book online or something... I think Rokugan is the 3rd edition setting for it. Oughta have something there.

Thankyou Aridos

Google "D&D monk"
many links

Monks are incredibly flexible, and there's no right way. I suggest you look up a FR religion your monk might follow and brew your own monk philosophy around it. There's plenty of real world material you could adapt about ascetism and mysticism.

You become a monk by training with a large monk order, in an independent monastery or under a personal master, generally. It isn't necessarily restricted to these ways, and you could study the texts of an ancient master instead or seek your own enlightenment, for example. But you will probably have had some kind of monastic tutoring at some point.

It seem to me that the best way would be to take one part real world monastic order and one part FR diety dogma. Shake well to combine and viola.

Have you watched the movie "The Forbidden Kingdom"?

There is a part, close to the end of the movie (I think!), when it shows a monastery with a couple of kids training.

I believe it would be something like that.

few very useful links:

http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Monk

http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/M ... s_by_Deity

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... 01a&page=4

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5485

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/monks.htm

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a

That being said, if you are about to make a monk I'd reccommand Order of the Iron Gauntlet (aka Bane) cuz to my knowledge, it is the only monastic order that is activly being RPed by PCs at the moment. Also Church of Bane is one of the biggest factions on server and provides very good RP.

Shameless, shameless...

wereguy2 wrote:

Shameless, shameless...

you made your banite monk. so hush.

Damn.. would go banite.. But just made him a LG aasimar. Gawd damn lol..

'tis never too late.

I think I'll just put this shameless plug right about.....here.
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33065

Make yer own damn lore! And look at other people's too!

And for goodness sake, come one non-monk folk, post your stuff too. I've seen too many goddamn samurai running around Amia for there not to be someone posting their Kiai Strikes in there or something.

Krav Maga. That is my take on monks. Monks can be anything really, from holy ascets who sit on the top of a mountain or remorseless assassins who do the bidding of their master without question. All you need is something to represent the Lawful aligment, perhaps a Code of conduct or a set philosophy that you must adhere to.

QPR wrote:

Krav Maga. That is my take on monks. Monks can be anything really, from holy ascets who sit on the top of a mountain or remorseless assassins who do the bidding of their master without question. All you need is something to represent the Lawful aligment, perhaps a Code of conduct or a set philosophy that you must adhere to.

Well yes, and no. Krav Maga is a discipline that teaches you how to disable and kill your opponent in a quickest and most effective way. What I want to say is that there is no art, or spiritualism or mind training in that. At least not like with kung-fu or ninjutsu.

PS Krav Maga rules.

A monks primary goal is the path of self perfection, to be the perfect representation of ones own being, it is why Monks become Outsiders at level 20

That's true for some monks. Not all. Perhaps in due time, they get there, but it's not always the sole goal of the class.

Well for some monks its not direct goal, but passive, certainly. It is always a goal of some sorts. It's what drives, imho, most monks to train themselves, or at least to start it.

You're making huge metaphysical assumptions there. I highly doubt that all monks even subscribe to a philosophy that allows for concepts such as perfection, self, or the essence of one's own being. Instead, I can imagine some would try to diminish and fade out their self, or embrace some kind of perspectivism that invalidates all notions of perfection.

The path is what the monk is. The goal is the 'Ki', a supernatural power springing from mind and spirit. But, how does one unlock thier inner Ki?

Just like in most real world martial arts, Ki is an advaced concept or spiritual connection. This is attained by eliminating physical concearns so as to concentrate on unlocking the inner Ki. By elimination, I mean conditioning the body to a point where consious thought is no longer needed, thus freeing physical needs from the consious mind.

How to accomplish this task is different and varied for all seekers of Ki. Some endure physical hardship to build resistance to trauma, others find geometric movements help focus the mind, while others strive for a more direct physical practicality.

The end result is still the same however, mastering the body to unlock the spiritual. Many paths, leading to many treasures of enlightenment. So, self perfection is correct, but like all such broad concepts too vauge to be useful. Which is why there is so much diversity among all the real world martial arts.

The Monk class is based on self perfection and mastering of ones own power, how one achieves that goal can vary, but that is the basis of the Monk class.

Ki does not come naturally, a Monk has to train and perfect such abilities. Being able to bypass DR, gaining the ability of 50% conceal, the increased speed, self healing abilities all represent the path of self perfection, these abilities do not come naturaly just because someone is a Monk, they have to persue and train such abilities.

You're all blinded by the conventions of common life and fail to see past the veneer of individuality that distorts our experience. A monk would know better.

Something like a Buddhist or some kind of a Hindu monk would never talk about self-perfection, because the enlightenment lies in losing the self. That's just one example. Monks are about living by a philosophical and/or religious code and devoting themselves fully to it (both in "mind and body", though the monk might not even acknowledge such distinctions). You're trying to posit questionable metaphysical presumptions as something all monks acknowledge, when monks are exactly the class who're most inclined to unconventional thinking and alien philosophies. The self, mind, body, perfection, mastery. These are all concepts loaded with theoretical baggage the monk might not acknowledge.

In D&D the monk class mechanically is based on self perfection, as are the vast majoraty of FR monk orders

Mechanics don't always determine RP.

Some monks achieve perfection by seeking it specifically. Others achieve it merely as a byproduct of their own metaphysical epiphany. As Iron said, loosing the self to understand and embody the nature of Truth, Reality, or any other axle of philosophy you can conceive.

One of my monks is the former. One of my monks is the later. Not all monks are sole seekers of self-perfection. And that's that.

As for the monk Orders, which ones are you talking about? Most of the monk orders I've seen in lore, and I've seen a lot of them, are based around some alternative motive than self perfection. Healing and protecting mankind(The Broken Ones), using destruction as a tool of renewal(Disciples of the Salamander), defending the society and well-being of a race(the Hin Fist), ensuring that Death occurs(Long Death), and many, many more that are dedicated to simply aiding and spreading the word of a particular deity.

The only order that I can really think that has the specific goal of self perfection would be like the Old Order. And that's mainly based on their philosophy of everyone having a "divine spark" within, so it's almost a religion, even though the god that supposedly taught that belief is long gone.

@IronAngel

what I meant by self-perfection is actually leveling yourself. The ways and final destinations do vary, I agree. Some level themselves trough self-destruction, some level themselves trough training, some level themselves by doing nothing.. but it is the thrive that fuels them. The big question is what makes one a monk? The usage of Ki energy? The martial arts? The ability to see past physical/mortal aspects? The devotion to faith? Or everything combined?

I do agree that the monk will probably aspire to advance on his path, however that advancement is understood. (Though it's not unconceivable that the monk's progress in levels would be a spontaneous byproduct of his devotion to his discipline, such as helping the poor. In D&D mechanics this will be XP-related, but XP can come from various things.) But my main criticism is focused on the use of these two loaded theoretical terms: self and perfection. Both are complex and theoretical in nature, and not something all monks will understand or accept. But I guess we're done in that topic!

What makes a monk is taking the monk class, I guess. In IC terms, I would say there's no definition by necessary and sufficent prerequisites. It's more like a family resemblance thing. Some monks might practice martial arts and try to master matter with the mind, others might be devoted to a faith and only share the mind over matter theme with those other monks, but that doesn't mean that mind over matter would be the defining trait of all monks. But I guess this goes for all classes; the PCs may not share one single defining feature of their class, but they're loosely connected by chains of characteristics so that two Fighters or Rogues might not share any traits with eachother, but they're part of the Fighter or Rogue because they share enough traits with the average archetype. (OOC, there is the defining characteristic of having class levels, though.)

I don't think Ki is a concept all monks would acknowledge, understand or care about. Whatever it is, it's a mystery. Maybe there is no shared source of Ki, and monks just happen to develop similar skills. Maybe Ki is just a misinterpretation of something known by other names in other contexts. Or maybe Ki is quite real. But monks will have their own interpretations according to their philosophies. If you believe in the ultimate unity and identity of the soul with the cosmos, you interpret "Ki" as nothing but awareness of the fact that you and everything around you are the same and therefore malleable according to your imagination. A faithful monk of Ilmater may see Ki as a divine gift to help him serve his purpose, whereas an Oghmanyte recognizes the superiority of idea over matter and causation from the former to the latter. And so on. I think people make too much of this Oriental "Ki" business. Monks get mysterious powers unknown to other mortals, and how they interpret them will be determined by their discipline and philosophy (because, obviously, that's also how they gained the power).

IronAngel wrote:

I think people make too much of this Oriental "Ki" business.

LOL...

With the exception of a few purely military 'Martial Arts', like Pancreatum and Savate, most martial arts are oriental in nature due to the variations of eastern philosophy that spawned them. It is a proven fact that extraordinary abilities and feats can be achieved through extensive training.

For the purposes of the fantasy monk, it's a matter of simplisity to call those abilities 'Ki'. Doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone, especially since there are so many different ways to attain them. It really comes down to being able to rationalize the varied abilities one can achieve.

Bravo21 wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I think people make too much of this Oriental "Ki" business.

LOL...

With the exception of a few purely military 'Martial Arts', like Pancreatum and Savate, most martial arts are oriental in nature due to the variations of eastern philosophy that spawned them. It is a proven fact that extraordinary abilities and feats can be achieved through extensive training.

For the purposes of the fantasy monk, it's a matter of simplisity to call those abilities 'Ki'. Doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone, especially since there are so many different ways to attain them. It really comes down to being able to rationalize the varied abilities one can achieve.

What's your point and how does it disagree with mine?

As I said, PCs will understand the source of their abilities in different ways, and not nearly all of them will posit a specific energy or power that works in them. They certainly won't call it Ki. You just repeated my point.

But we're not aiming for mechanical simplicity here, we're aiming for a rich and accurate picture of a monk's IC reality. People clearly make too much of the Ki business, because several posts refer to it as the central issue of monk RP. To me, that's almost like saying Fighter RP is defined by bonus feats.

Except that every monk ability is pretty much explicitly explained as being afacet of Ki/chi/that body stuff.

Ki for a Monk is the same thing as the Weave for a mage.

Every ability a monk develops is represented of thier mastery of Ki energy, which is why Ki is the central focus of a Monk. Each level in Monk shows how much mastery of Ki they have obtained.

Yeah, what Tormak said.

I don't neccecarily disagree on any specific point except the implication of Ki being irrelevant. The monks abilities are metaphysical in nature and no one definition is applicable for all. It should be the RP that determines the character, the ability to define exactly what Ki is to a particular monk will develop that RP. I certainly hope that some find the freedom to explore new and interesting ways of explaining Ki in their monks.

My point.
|
| Great distance.
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Tormak's head.

I guess we don't disagree, Bravo21, because I never said or intended that the concept of Ki is irrelevant. I merely said it's emphasized a little too much, as if it was meaningful and important to every monk in their philosophy and training. I seriously doubt every monk has some kind of a concept of Ki that they consider their goal, which is what you said earlier. I was also answering Dead, who wondered if the use of Ki energy is the definition of a monk. And most importantly, when I say "people make too much of this Oriental "Ki" business", I mean they tend to borrow way too much from pseudo-philosophical kung-fu mumbo jumbo because they feel the word "Ki" must have a meaning they can find in real world martial arts. I'd rather they came up with their own theories and concepts, because that is the very essence of the monk. If you have to look for an explanation to your monk abilities (or Ki) outside the philosophy and world view of your monk, you've failed to create a coherent theory. Because monks are all about learning from their discipline and understanding it fully, they must see all their powers as a direct consequence and logical part of that system of belief. Something like: "I serve the poor and sacrifice my own desires in service to my god, for that is the way to perfection - oh yeah, and then there's this Ki energy that gives me superpowers" doesn't seem like a coherent system of belief. The IC interpretation of monk abilities should be based only on his philosophy, IMO. If the idea of an independent mind/body energy called Ki doesn't sit well in that system, too bad for Ki.

I got your point perfectly, I just don't agree with it and think it was not applicable in the context in which you explained it. I'm not stupid just because I don't agree with you.

Well, your counter-argument had nothing to do with the subject at hand, at least in any clear sense. You may not be stupid, but your inability (or unwillingness) to post explicit, clear and thorough arguments which actually answer the points other posters brought up can make you seem that way, a lot of the time. You didn't even specify which of my several arguments and posts you wanted to refute. If you really do understand but just don't want to act like it, then I guess you're a bit of a troll. Or maybe I'm dumb, and your argument utterly destroys all my points and I just don't see it. But if that's the case, you need to explicate it so that us dumbos understand. You can't educate the clueless if you won't step down from your intellectual high horse and lead us by hand.

Ki is as real in gravity in the FR setting. A monastic philosophy that doesn't harness Ki will do about as well as a philosophy of welding that does't harness heat.

Unless you mean that they are harnessing Ki, but not calling it that. I've done that twice with WM's; they weren't just guys who practised a lot with their weapons; there was supernatural gubbins afoot.

I do agree that whatever it is that gives monks their abilities (called Ki in the rules) is real and common to all monks, more or less. I guess you could simplify my point by saying "they might not call it that" but it's more than that. They might not even identify a specific "energy" that gives them powers, and they might not think of their discipline as "channeling" or "using" something that's external or distinct from themselves or the world. That's what I mean when I say Ki need not be at the center of monk RP: a monk's philosophy might not have any specific concept for Ki, the whole of their abilities might be understood in a completely different way. So not only do monks have different answers for the question "What is Ki/this energy", but some might not even ask that question.

My perspective is only IC. The actual source of their powers has been labelled as Ki in the game rules and that's fine, but it's not necessarily relevant IC.

Monk Lore.

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