AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

This is, pretty much, me talking about game mechanics vs. real life again, this time, focusing on three different things: Invisibility, Stealth Mode and Sanctuary.

Firstly, Invisibility. I would like to raise that when you come up close to someone who is invisible, and they appear up on the screen, YOU DO NOT SUDDENLY CATCH SIGHT OF THEM SOMEHOW! Many people seem to RP it like this, and it annoys me. Invisibility is Invisibility, when you come close to someone under it's effect, you knock into them.
Hooowever, this raises another question: How about Stealth and Sanctuary? When you come close to someone under one of these effects, the game engine does not register any physical contact... Well, surely that isn't right... I can imagine Sanctuary having some way of skirting around this, like, for example "Contact isn't felt.", but Stealth Mode is, what with all the magical items and the ability to hide without any nearby cover, just a different form of Invisibility...
Finally, what about the other senses? Surely, footsteps would be seen a myriad of different malleable surfaces, surely a clumsy mage wearing a suit of half-plate armour would make a considerable amount of noise while invisible...

Anyway, yeah, discuss, and remember that this isn't the "Improving Amia" section of the forums.

I think the whole invisibility thing is stupid in the first place, but there are spot and listen checks for a reason. If they can get past the armor penalty and your checks then I guess they're stealthy enough to remember to avoid making sound or foot steps. Running into someone would obviously send a message to your brain that your eyes are deceiving you, maybe there is some sort of magic buillshit in the lore that prevents the synapse from occurring.
What about smell though? A blind dog can still find you regardless if you're making a sound or not.

It depends on the nature of the invisibility. As I recall, there are two types of invisibility. Standard, run-of-the mill invisibility as cast by mages and drunk by potions and cast from wands, acts in a manner that reflects and refracts light. You are masked from sight, and you do not cast a shadow. But, you still make noise. You can still be bumped into. It does not mask scent. If you step into a puddle, it causes ripples, etc.

There is also psionic invisibility, which is not represented in NWN. But, it is neat enough to warrant mentioning to contrast. It actually tricks the mind of the victim into thinking you are not there. They do not see you. They do not think they are touching you if they bump into you. They do not think they are smelling you, nor do they hear you. You, simply, are erased from their senses completely. Cool, but, irrelevant to the discussion, as invisibility per the spell does not do this.

I do hate it when someone walks by me invisible, suddenly stops and turns looks straight at me and asks, who is this?

Though it didnt stop me from sneaking into the Temple of Light and watching a ceremony as howl, invisible around 15 Knights for AN HOUR AND A HALF.

wereguy2 wrote:

Firstly, Invisibility. I would like to raise that when you come up close to someone who is invisible, and they appear up on the screen,

YOU DO NOT SUDDENLY CATCH SIGHT OF THEM SOMEHOW! Many people seem to RP it like this, and it annoys me. Invisibility is Invisibility, when you come close to someone under it's effect, you knock into them.

think of it more like a cloaking bubble.... they got inside your bubble so they could see you.

Problem with NWN is if you can hear it, magically you "see" it. Meaning if I can hear your invisible self meandering around near me, I can swing in your general direction to hit you. Its mechanics.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Problem with NWN is if you can hear it, magically you "see" it. Meaning if I can hear your invisible self meandering around near me, I can swing in your general direction to hit you. Its mechanics.

This is a problem but for the opposite reason you believe it to be. You are entitled to listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures regardless of their distance. NWN does not do this. IF you walk close to someone they hear ou. The solution is to be smarter with your invisibleness.

Yup. Range changes the modifiers on listen checks people. Just like light changes spot mods. Learn it, live it, love it

TormakSaber wrote:

DustSpray101 wrote:

Problem with NWN is if you can hear it, magically you "see" it. Meaning if I can hear your invisible self meandering around near me, I can swing in your general direction to hit you. Its mechanics.

This is a problem but for the opposite reason you believe it to be. You are entitled to listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures regardless of their distance. NWN does not do this. IF you walk close to someone they hear ou. The solution is to be smarter with your invisibleness.

Ah, sorry about that, I thought it also worked on folks moving while "hiding"

Well, even when someone "sees" you because you're close enough in invisibility, they're not really physically seeing you. What I believe it's supposed to be interpreted as is that they've receive enough visual cues(pushed down grass in the shape of feet, smell, sound) where they can make s guess of "Hey, there's a person somewhere in this proximity." You're still "unseen", but definitely observed.

For instance, if someone bumped into me in invisibility and ran off, what I'd say I observed was "a short creature, felt like it was wearing armor, brushed past me" not "A female hin in a blue adamantine fullplate bumped into me."

As far as there being an "invisibility bubble" that just doesn't work for me. I mean, that's what Invisibility Sphere is for. When you cast Invisibility on yourself, it hides your person and the things in general contact with you. You could put your nose square on that of a person in Invisibility and still not "see" them. But there'd be little doubt in your mind that someone was there, unless you were deaf, blind, and thoroughly unperceptive.

You'lle notice that with hide, the higher your ability, the closer you can get with it without being detected. Obviously it is easier to hide farther away than right up close. As a person with very high Hide, I can stand milileters right beside you and you will not spot me. So just remember if someone gets too close and you spot them its because they don't have very high hide (or you have excellent spot) and their proximity makes it impossible for them to remain undetected.

Again, I find that more a matter of observation.

Someone in stealth isn't physically "invisible" so much as unnoticed. Now whether there are unnoticed because they're under some shrubbery or they're just so silent and inconspicuous walking beside you, that you don't even notice them. Like they're hiding the your peripheral vision or, again, just really good at not being noticed, by whatever means.

Like when you sit your pen down for a second, and you say you "lost" it. You look for about 5 minutes, only to realize it was sitting on your desk right in front of you in the open the whole time. Doesn't mean the pen was "invisible" it was just completely unnoticed. Much the same way a person in Stealth mode might be.

Hrothmus wrote:

You'lle notice that with hide, the higher your ability, the closer you can get with it without being detected. Obviously it is easier to hide farther away than right up close. As a person with very high Hide, I can stand milileters right beside you and you will not spot me. So just remember if someone gets too close and you spot them its because they don't have very high hide (or you have excellent spot) and their proximity makes it impossible for them to remain undetected.

This is untrue. You're getting closer without being detected because you're rolling standard hide/spot checks. Invisibility only comes into play if you get seen by the spot/listen roll, and if you fail that but ar einvisible, no matter what your hide is, if you get within that radius, you'll show as transparent.

I think we have to play the game according to the mechanics. Real life should never be involved with NWN, anyway. Use your common sense, don't clutch to teeny details, and don't assume people know all the PnP rules in the world.

If you don't win the roll in Spot/Listen vs. Hide/MS, you do not detect the sneaker, as simple as that.

Ah, but if they show up on your screen, you can detect them: If not by sight then by some other method.

With spot you see the other person.

With listen you can hear where they are.

Problem is: You can not differate between the two.

All that NWn gives you is that *POOF* someone is there and you can notice them.

Basically what Tormak said.

If you pass your Listen check but not Spot, the sneaking PC appears transparent. If you pass Spot, the PC is solid. So it is possible to differentiate between the two.

It's invisibility when things are less clear. In my own case, I just put it down to them being within listening range, so my PC can hear them breathing and possibly some visual cues, but they're not able to see their actual appearance.

Same here. I guess it's more a question of interpretation, because I don't think you can accuse anyone of "poor RP", if you say something like that your outlines show when you're close enough, even if invisible.

And the character spotted will still appear transparent if the bastard has Improved Invis.

HellScourge wrote:

With spot you see the other person.

With listen you can hear where they are.

Problem is: You can not differate between the two.

All that NWn gives you is that *POOF* someone is there and you can notice them.

Basically what Tormak said.

I do not see this as a problem, and this is an ultimately stupid thread. You just answered your own question, but phrased it in a sense that is a problem, when the solution is right there.

It gives you spot, it gives you sound, but without differentiation - ultimately leaving it up to the player how they choose to pursue their discovery ICly.

Simple.

If the game mechanics show me your PC is there, my char will know he's there, period.

Concurred.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

If you pass your Listen check but not Spot, the sneaking PC appears transparent. If you pass Spot, the PC is solid. So it is possible to differentiate between the two.

QFE. This is the answer right here and what people need to be taught but that is not going to come from making forum posts since not everyone, most "bad players" or casual players, don't spend much time creeping anyway. It will come from people teaching people IG. I do it all the time with my SD. If a new PC I've not run into "sees" him I send a tell to that person and confirm that they understand what skill they are "seeing" him by. Barring a PVP situation you /always/ have a chance to reject thier initial RP response and make sure that they are playing it right. Once taught they will know and hopefully, if you've done the teaching kindly, will go on and teach others the difference.

hendrack wrote:

If the game mechanics show me your PC is there, my char will know he's there, period.

Happen to agree with this.

Don't want to be seen? Don't get that close, or hide behind PLC's.

But that's just the point that is being put forward. If you only pass a Listen check and the PC only shows transparent and is not actually seen but only heard

I think it's pretty obvious you don't recognize someone Invisible, but you do know exactly where they are. It's the same as Stealth and Listen: they're transparent, hence known but not seen. If it's a problem, just emote *is invisible* the moment someone steps close enough.

Also, True Seeing, See Invisibility, Ultravision, Arcane Sight, Whatever, still doesn't let you see someone who is hiding, unless you make your spot check.

I had someone tell me they could see my hiding character because they had True Seeing, and I couldn't make them realize they actually made their spot check on me

The Peacock wrote:

HellScourge wrote:

With spot you see the other person.

With listen you can hear where they are.

Problem is: You can not differate between the two.

All that NWn gives you is that *POOF* someone is there and you can notice them.

Basically what Tormak said.

I do not see this as a problem, and this is an ultimately stupid thread. You just answered your own question, but phrased it in a sense that is a problem, when the solution is right there.

It gives you spot, it gives you sound, but without differentiation - ultimately leaving it up to the player how they choose to pursue their discovery ICly.

Simple.

I.. I didn't start the thread! *cry*

Ze Cock is harsh, but fair.

It's a shame that server is high magic. Hard to be a magical creature or a humanoid with strong magic when everyone can do the same. Or use some level of magic, items etc etc..

What I mean is. For example pixies use invis a lot. However, if the pixie flies near other creature they "see him/her" and then cast see invis, true seeing. Ruins a possible great rp, on my opinion.

And when considering that when a pixie flies past invis in a forest, sure you can hear them.. Their wings making the noice. But after all it is a forest with a lot of insects.

Buut nothing we can do about it. Would love to see other results when I pass by, not the automatic see invis. (Plus if one casts see invis, others usually follow. ) >.<

Get 117 hide on your pixie?

Is that Brent Spiner on your avatar Hendrack?

Magiros wrote:

It's a shame that server is high magic. Hard to be a magical creature or a humanoid with strong magic when everyone can do the same. Or use some level of magic, items etc etc..

What I mean is. For example pixies use invis a lot. However, if the pixie flies near other creature they "see him/her" and then cast see invis, true seeing. Ruins a possible great rp, on my opinion.

And when considering that when a pixie flies past invis in a forest, sure you can hear them.. Their wings making the noice. But after all it is a forest with a lot of insects.

Buut nothing we can do about it. Would love to see other results when I pass by, not the automatic see invis. (Plus if one casts see invis, others usually follow. ) >.<

High magic sucks by default for it makes everything so epic that it just becomes lame and boring. The fact every character on amia is level 30 (Which is easily reached in a week) sucks, even if a few things are downscaled like the impact of hellball on the world. That's about it though. The fact every cleric can cast heal and true res is making everything silly. The fact that mages on amia can cast wish makes it silly. The fact you can play a tiefling or aasimar without request sucks. The fact that instead us being lower levels the NPCs are now level sixty making it even more epic is silly. The fact I can defeat a huge blue dragon in the abyss alone with Robert without breaking a sweat is silly.

It is no longer a place where the heroes risk their lifes in the face of great dangers for coin, glory or honor. No, instead they risk a bit of pain knowing for 2000gp you get returned. It is a place where everyone can become an adventurer as there is no risk and you can be sure that if you turn eighteen you can already summon a dragon, making it not a world of wonder but of "Pfft, seen that, done that. Let us get a drink of hot chocolate in the abyss and later I will study fifteen minutes to learn greater ruin." It is a place where you can say what you want to whom you want and do what you want because if you pull a Valas without breaking rules or ranting, nothing can happen to you. Enough people are. You can betray the Church of Bane and steal secret information and post it for all to see, because honestly, what can they do to you? You can keep poking Maladrina with a stick until she cries because she can not hurt you.[/Waving finger at ickyness]

That has little to do with the game mechanic, but I will not miss a chance to point to that and say "Nein, nein, nein, nein!".

Phearnun wrote:

The fact every cleric can cast heal and true res is making everything silly. The fact that mages on amia can cast wish makes it silly.

IF you couldn't cast heal or normal res, just about everyone could kill your character off easily. Plus true res and Wish spells needs DM oversight, and if you get a Wish that actually goes off without a problem you're one lucky SOB. Wish or Miracle usually comes with funny side effects like "I wish this insanity would go away" then boom, you're healed of insanity but now look like a frog instead, for instance.

There are two problems in distinguishing between sight and sound. The first one is the concealment appearance, because even if you pass a Spot check on a hiding character, who at some point had Improved Invisibility cast on them but are not still invisible, it's impossible to distinguish if you hear them or see them (already denoting a discrepancy on Improved Invisibility in NWN and D&D). The second problem is that Invisibility is not implemented as per its own description or standard D&D mechanics. You're supposed to be able to hear people at increments of distance proportional to your Listen score, but you don't: instead, you always see someone within 5 feet of you regardless of Listen, if they are not stealthed beyond your detection.

I think it was a point worth bringing up, if not just to re-iterate that someone near you who is invisible cannot be seen, but rather heard. Some traces of movement akin to rippling in the air can be seen closeby, too. But you're not visible - no shape, no color.

Saying that it's up to the player to distinguish how they interpret it is probably what this will come down to, which I find sad. WYSIWYG is of course the simplest way to go about things. I agree with the original post, but this is hopeless, if you ask me. Even on servers where harder-core rules are enforced, people still "see" the invisible in this way; people who, like some here, spend most of their NWN time spouting facts about lore, technicalities about gods and their lineage, like walking libraries of things no mortal on Toril would know - all without knowing that invisibility makes you invisible.

So, just for the sake of curiosity, if I was both Invisible and Silenced, would I be undetectable even if venturing within people's Listen range? Or is NWN not that smart?

Lizzie wrote:

So, just for the sake of curiosity, if I was both Invisible and Silenced, would I be undetectable even if venturing within people's Listen range? Or is NWN not that smart?

No, it isn't. You'd still be seen. Listen rolls have nothing to do with invisibility in terms of mechanics.

Yannno, I was always under the assumption, and that's how it was taken on my last server, that up until a certain point, invisibility works, until you are within mere feet of a person, then they can see a hazy outline of you, the bending of light waves around you doesn't work as well from close up, and that seemed feasible to me, and fit in with the way, IMHO, invisibility should work, which is bending the light around you, which makes sense. Seems to me that magic is just using the weave to alter your physical reality.

As a person who loves science, I find the above explanation to be more comforting, rather than assuming that invisibility just lets light waves pass right through your physical form, and it would explain why you become visible when you are close up, in the mechanics of NWN. I'd never thought to disregard what the mechanics showed me in that respect. I find that everyone seems to default to this conclusion being that when my character has walks up closely, under invisibility, to even the most excellent RP'er, I almost always get a "Hello Janna".

No. You're still invisible. You do hear them though.

I threw in an edit on my last post, btw, to clarify what has generally happened.

My post still applies. Invisibility doesn 't get weaker because you approach a person.

But someone invisible brushing past you would likely let you hear something and thus validate you using see invis to check if anything's there. Much like you'd turn on the flashlight if you felt a cold chill brush against your back.

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