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PaladinOfSune wrote:

I'd go 5 Ranger/15 Assassin/10 SD if you really want to make an Assassin with SD levels. No Epic Dodge is a sorry sight.

So you think Epic Dodge is worth losing Improved two-weapon fighting and the 4th attack?

4 Ranger pre-epic gives you the 4th attack...

...and yes. Yes it is worth it to trade 1 off-hand attack for Epic Dodge. :twisted:

Alright, I think I agree with you after I made the build. Thanks for the help.

Jehran wrote:

Alright, I think I agree with you after I made the build. Thanks for the help.

Do you use the ranger levels to get Dual weapon feats, or are you using the Ranger levels because you want him to be a ranger, RP wise?
If ranger is ... Just there to fill out a hole - You should consider using 6 Levels of Fighter instead, and nab Epic Wep Spec.

5 Ranger is the minimum level required to hit the skills needed for Assassin. He needs Assassin to qualify for Shadowdancer.

Silly me

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

5 Ranger is the minimum level required to hit the skills needed for Assassin. He needs Assassin to qualify for Shadowdancer.

This, I needed a base class that had hide/ms and with rogue, bard, or monk, I would sacrifice too much

So I made a Bard 14/Fighter 6/RDD 10 for the fun of it. Human. What's it look like?
Rough concept was a heavy hitting dualer, hence the Ambidex and Dev Crit and such. Rapier was the choice for the threat range and it being all bard-like.

Abilities
STR: 14 (30)
DEX: 15
CON: 10 (12)
WIS: 10
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 14 (16)

Feats
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Bard(1): Blind Fight, Ambidexterity
03: Bard(3): Two-Weapon Fighting
06: Bard(6): Power Attack
09: Bard(9): Maximize Spell
12: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus: Rapier, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13: Fighter(2): Cleave
15: Fighter(4): Great Cleave, Weapon Specialization: Rapier
18: Red Dragon Disciple(2): Improved Critical: Rapier
21: Red Dragon Disciple(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier
24: Red Dragon Disciple(8): Overwhelming Critical: Rapier
26: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}
27: Bard(12): Devastating Critical: Rapier
29: Fighter(6): Epic Weapon Specialization: Rapier
30: Bard(14): Great Strength I

Skills
01: Lore(4), Perform(4)
02: Lore(1), Perform(1)
03: Lore(1), Perform(1)
04: Lore(1), Perform(1)
05: Lore(1), Perform(1)
06: Perform(1)
07: Perform(1)
08: Perform(1)
09: Perform(1)
10: Perform(1)
11: Perform(1)
27: Perform(1)
28: Perform(1)
30: Concentration(33), Discipline(33), Perform(2), Spellcraft(30), Tumble(30), UMD(20)

Skills Totals (32 remaining)
Concentration 33(34), Discipline 33(43), Lore 8(25), Perform 18(21), Spellcraft 30(33), Tumble 30(32), UMD 20(23)

Just never made a RDD before, so trying my hand at it. Of course, if I ever actually made it I would have the skills more spread out and such, yesh. Dunno what to do with the leftover 32 points, also. Can't think of a good spot for them, since he's not going to be a sneaker or anything. Taunt maybe?
Course, I could drop the INT to 14, I'll have to take 1 point from a skill at the end, but also unlock an epic feat to take Armor Skin instead of Great Strength. Maybe?
Thoughts/suggestions?

Those bard levels aren't really going to help you very much. I think you're trying to do too much with that build.

Aye. Bard are best served in terms of 20. 25, or 30. Anything else is ... A waste of classes, basically.

Mm I thought the 14 level song was decent, at least. Mostly supposed to be a melee build anyways, with the fighter levels for bonuses and such. Bard as for the RDD req, though I figured going more than just a single level of bard would be nice.

What about doing just a couple bard level and the rest going to fighter? Bard 1/Fighter 19/RDD 10

Bard2 for skilldumping, but the overall build is just meh, unless you're ok with a mundane fighter with wings. Or I just don't know much about RDD because I don't like the class.

Well, the fighter levels can be removed. They are not really needed and I was mostly taking them for the weapon spec feats.

20barD/10RDD.
You'll loose one attack and 6 damage.

But you'll gain Winspiration and improve the bardsong drastically.

20 Bard 9 RDD 1 Fighter. I value the heavy armor and weapon proficiencies higher than anything RDD 10 gives and I include +2cha in this.

Mm good ideas, there.
Yeah I see the RDD 10 doesn't give much, might as well stop at 9 for anything really worthwhile (I neglected to remember Amia's changes lol I need to update the Build Calc for our subraces and class changes still ^.^)

Yeah, 20 Bard is what I was thinking now, so that's cool. Good to at least know what to do.
So it' pretty much 2 Bard or 20 bard with RDD 9/10?

The +2CHA can pump your Cha up to 18, and that means one more cast of masshaste and some extra spellslots?

My cleric just took the epic spell:mummy dust. However, when I try to summon it, it tells that I do not have the required abilities. She can cast level 9 spells and her spellcraft exceeds 15. Am I missing something?

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=23225&p=644297#p644297

Amia spells wrote:

Mind that you need a Wis, Int or Cha of at least 20 to be able to cast Epic Spells! This is in your casting stat, so Int for wizards, Cha for Bards/Sorcs, Wis for Druids/Clerics.

That line should be placed at the Rules and Lore section, Summons, too - To avoid Misinterpretation.

23Paladin/6Fighter/1Monk - Can we make it an effective Ranged paladin, You think?

If you really want an effective ranged paladin, I'd recommend going paladin/wizard/AA, probably half-elf to ease up on some of the RP restrictions (Though Elf would be mechanically better, but elves tend to be chaotic not lawful). 20/1/9 and 23/2/5 seem like solid combinations to work with.

Elaborate

I was thinking along the lines of:

Elf || Half-Elf Pal/Wizard/AA
Stats: 10/16(18)/12(10)/12/14/12
2 + 10 + 4 + 6 + 6 + 4 = 30
20 Paladin, 1 Wizard, 9 AA
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Pt Blank Shot
6: Rapid Shot
9: Weapon Focus Longbow
12: IMPR Crit Longbow
15: Blind Fight
18: Extend Spell
21: Armor Skin
24: EWF Longbow
27: Eprowess
30: G-Dex 1
10/24(26)/12(10)/12/14/12
10/36(38)/12/(10)/12/14/12
AB(Unbuffed): 20+5+4+13(14)+4(enhancement)+5(AA) = 46(47)
AB(Optimal) = Unbuffed+1(GMW)+1(bless)+1(aid)+1(prayer)+4(Div Favor) = 54(55)
AB is 8 lower if using a melee weapon.

Looking at it again, you might end up getting more if you reversed it and went 10/1/19, don't get all the buffs but you do get more AA benefits, means you don't really need to buff for your AB/Damage, since you're good all day every day. I suppose you could try to fit in divine shield and divine might but I've never been a big fan of them myself, too short of a duration and you'd need to revise your stats, means you'd need everything and I think you'd be spread too thin.

Looking at it from afar, I'd say it could get more beefy with Zen archery and WIS based, Really.
And should probably lower the AA levels a little, to 7 and raise the Paladin levels to 22. That way you get +5Divine favour, instead of +4.
9 AA to 7 AA = -1Ab/damage,
20 P to 22 P = +1Ab/damage

No real gain but some extended spells.

Hmmm ..Not to shabby!
Rapid shot exists on a cloak... Could be replaced with Power attack. Blind fight is no longer needed, So it could be replaced with Divine might, and Imp.Critical is rather useless - So we'll take Divine Shield there instead.

Basically
Weapon finesse = Zen archary
Imp.Critical = Divine might
Blind fight = Divine Shiled
Rapid shot = power attack.

Then Change the stats around a little to
STR 14
DEX 8
CON 12
WIS 16(Raised to 23 + 1 Great Wis = 24)
INT 12

AB = 25+5(GMW on bow)+13WIS Modifier = 43 + Divine favour = 47 + Bless/Aid/ = 49 + 4AA = 53 + 3Epic wep focus = 56. (57 with prayer, Too)
Damage will be
8 Cha modifier + 5 Divine favour + 1d8Bow + 5 Mighty + 4AA Arrows = 23 Minimum and 30Maximum. + Whatever arrows used.

You need 13 base STR to take Power Attack.

Sorry sune, Was adding more to my post while you wrote! I thought about the 13STR, Too.

Unsure if i would ever come around to make it, But the idea sprung to my head and i wanted to test it out. You've been a star The1Kobra for helping me

Hendracks non-AA axe tosser I believe is better than that. Same line of thought but does a bucket more damage.

I wouldn't bother going Zen either. You'll get at most 1 line of extra spells, whilst a high enough dex is more AC than

To give the nudge:

14str (6)
14dex (6) -> 20 + 1 Great Dex = 22 = 12 modifier = 12 AC versus fullplate 9 AC.
10con (2)
14wis (6)
12int (4)
14cha (6)

Otherwise 23 Paladin 6 Fighter 1 Rogue.

14str
8dex
10con
16wis (20)
12int
15cha (18)

25 BAB + 11 Modifier + 4 Prowess/EWF + 5 GMW + 5 Favor + 2 Aid/Bless + 1 Prayer = 53 AB

Throwing Axes.

Well yeah you get the point. The AA version is missing to much for it to be considered better and hends bloke was striking between 40 and 60 damage with throwing axes. (automatic uncapped mighty).

Very_Svensk wrote:

Blind fight is no longer needed.

Thats new, or did I miss something again?

I can only assume Svensk accepts it's purely a PvM build?

Yes. I wasn't specific as to why i removed it, But indeed- PvM build.

I've seen the halfling Pala-Tosser in action, and it's Godlike even at low levels. A beefy shield and Divine might gives it plenty of AC

Any more suggestions on the build I posted, taking into account the changes I mentioned?

Mostly wondering about the feats and skills now.

Naivatkal wrote:

Any more suggestions on the build I posted, taking into account the changes I mentioned?

Mostly wondering about the feats and skills now.

20bard/10RDD - Personal flavour. Start with 16CHA(Later will get 18), Pump rest into STR. Base DEX 10

Fun facts
Bards can easily pump their Listen up to 80
Level 20 bard - 33+20Amplify+10Clayvoyance+9Bardsong+11Skill = 83.

My opinion.

My ranged hin pally has zen archery because I have a spot neurosis, no other reason.

Well, imo - A handaxe paladin doesn't need more AC. He's running at 51-52 ac normally., and 60-61 with divine Shield

Zen archery is nice.

Besides, the loss of 3 AC isn't that major when we compare that to the solid number that isn't lost when flat-footed, the better AB gained by going WIS all the way and the hefty Spot score. Also, a Dev Crit version of that is possible for giggles, though the sorriest of the three.

kama monk vs unarmed monk?

Kama is better, lame and ugly.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Besides, the loss of 3 AC isn't that major when we compare that to the solid number that isn't lost when flat-footed, the better AB gained by going WIS all the way and the hefty Spot score. Also, a Dev Crit version of that is possible for giggles, though the sorriest of the three.

Its 14 AC. No Towershield, half tumble, no dex. The AC will be so low in fact that even with Div Shield running your still going to get pinged by middling AB's.

Im confused, Are we talking about the Bow Paladin or the Handaxe paladin?

The Bow Paladin since thats the one I was talking about in regards to upping dex.

The throwing axe one has 8 dex score and zen archery.

Barbarian gets no penalty for wearing heavy armor right?

Dead wrote:

Barbarian gets no penalty for wearing heavy armor right?

'
Nooope.

MoshingChris wrote:

Its 14 AC. No Towershield, half tumble, no dex. The AC will be so low in fact that even with Div Shield running your still going to get pinged by middling AB's.

I was talking about the throwing axe chap, silly. Yarp, misread that myself.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Any more suggestions on the build I posted, taking into account the changes I mentioned?

Mostly wondering about the feats and skills now.

20bard/10RDD - Personal flavour. Start with 16CHA(Later will get 18), Pump rest into STR. Base DEX 10

Fun facts
Bards can easily pump their Listen up to 80
Level 20 bard - 33+20Amplify+10Clayvoyance+9Bardsong+11Skill = 83.

My opinion.

Not bad, and didn't think of the Listen implications lol

Not sure on the DEX yet, cause I dunno if I would want him to go with TWF and Ambidex... but if not, frees up two feats and some skill points =D

Anyone else?

Dead wrote:

Barbarian gets no penalty for wearing heavy armor right?

Barb doesn't get the feat though, so you'll need another class or the feat.

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't honestly beleive you can get Plaanr Turning on Amia. If you can, color me surprised.

*Colours Tormie*
But seriously, it's a piddling build for a hardly useful feat. Is there a point to it?

Quote:

Aasimar Cleric 19/CoT 10
STR 13
DEX 8
CON 8
INT 10
WIS 18 => 25 (Great CHA VII)
CHA 19 => 26

I am colored. And no, it isn't useful at all.

Wasn't there a discussion to change the Planar Turning feat to only require 20WIS or 20CHA at the same time as Improved Whirlwind would've been improved.

There's better things to do right now.

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