AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

Very_Svensk wrote:

Q - How much DEX was required again for Bards? 14?

Q - Does bard need spell Penetration?

DEX? Well, none is really required, many just go with DEX 14 because it's a comfy natural score. As you pointed out earlier: 10 + Maxed Cat's 5 + Boots of the Sun Soul 3 = 18.

Spell Penetration? No, bards don't need it. Don't take it, even if you were going with a pure Bard with spell foci.

Was thinking of boosting some Spell Focus in Illusion. For A decent DC Of Silence

dimension_w wrote:

So would you recommend?:

Ranger 7 / Shadow Dancer 6 / Sorcerer 17 (for a Magical dominant build)

(7 Ranger are the most levels needed to help get Shadow Dancer class requirements, skill points-wise. Ranger has class skills in Hide and Move Silently, whereas Sorcerer does not)

or

What would be the recommended levels for a dominant Ranger build? More than 17 levels of Ranger?

Personally, I'd go 6 SD, 1 Sorc and 23 Ranger. That'll give you HiPS and a few cantrips to represent the the character's innate magical nature. I'd strongly recommend dropping the SD and just being a corner-sneaker, that would make room for the last pet upgrade, a tumbledump/UMD class and an extra level or two of Sorc if you really have your heart set on it.

Uberuce wrote:

I hope that means the 19/5/6, if only because I know nothing Rogue19/Ftr6+Epic Dodge can possibly fail. Even if you bribed Tormak with catgirl pictures of Yossarin until he LETO'd five levels of Commoner onto it, you'd still pwn.

I decided to take the wisdom contained in this post and build this, including the commoner levels. For ease of building and to avoid any potential risk of violating the arcane laws of interstate commerce and racketeering, I bypassed the catgirl picture bribery and self added the commoner levels, which for purposes of this build are represented by Harper Scout levels. :wink:

Q - On what items does Point Blank shot exist? I know of a pair of Gloves... And a bow, Anything else?

Another Q - Do bards need Concentration?

Very_Svensk wrote:

Q - On what items does Point Blank shot exist? I know of a pair of Gloves... And a bow, Anything else?

Another Q - Do bards need Concentration?

1. Not that I can think of, at least.
2. Yes, but if your build is absolutely gimped, I'd grab Discipline, Tumble and Perform before instead.

Right. Finally, I've got the concept ready. Now i just need to finalize the build a little and ask for advice.

It's going to be an Elven (Sun elf) Bard / RDD (20/10)

Q - I want 'It' to be a Stylish and elegant Parrier, But i cannot afford Dev.Crit. Is it still worth it? Especially on a Lev.20Bard, I find it questionable.
Q - How much parry do you need to make it worthwhile? 70+ ?
Q - Brew potion and Craft wand, Any useful for a Bard?
Q - Does a Lev.20 Bard need Epic skill focus:Preform?

P.S - Im Dreadful at building bards, My biggest flaw.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Q - On what items does Point Blank shot exist? I know of a pair of Gloves... And a bow, Anything else?

Another Q - Do bards need Concentration?

1. Not that I can think of, at least.
2. Yes, but if your build is absolutely gimped, I'd grab Discipline, Tumble and Perform before instead.

Don't you really only need that if you're a "caster" sort, IE tend to be casting inside of melee?

Well, Who's to say you don't need to cast that Invis spell, Mid battle, or Battle-Cry spell somewhere in between. Maybe that Invis spell were intended for the partymember, getting chased by 10+ mobs... And now he died, and you're alone... Alone alone ... Trying to cast invis on yourself, But you keep getting interrupted.. again and again.

*Dramatic speech*

What pisses me, is that i'm trying to fit some RP Skills, But end up having to little skillpoints. With 16 Base int, You'd expect something more.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Right. Finally, I've got the concept ready. Now i just need to finalize the build a little and ask for advice.

It's going to be an Elven (Sun elf) Bard / RDD (20/10)

Q - I want 'It' to be a Stylish and elegant Parrier, But i cannot afford Dev.Crit. Is it still worth it? Especially on a Lev.20Bard, I find it questionable.
Q - How much parry do you need to make it worthwhile? 70+ ?
Q - Brew potion and Craft wand, Any useful for a Bard?
Q - Does a Lev.20 Bard need Epic skill focus:Preform?

P.S - Im Dreadful at building bards, My biggest flaw.

1. Yes. If it fits your RP go for it. Otherwise no its not worth your time.
2. 70 is good. 80 is better. 90 is best.
3. www.nwnwiki.com
4. No.

P.S - I recall numerous cleric-fails.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Q - Does a Lev.20 Bard need Epic skill focus:Preform?

how about level 30?

A level 30 bard needs 100 Perform to get the last song increase.

33 Ranks
9 from CHA mod
50 from items
=
92 Perform. Yes, you need Epic Skill Focus.

Parry mode operates with ranks in Parry + 1d20 against a DC of the enemy's AB + 1d20 (as a usual attack roll). 70 Parry and up will make you 95% immune to attacks (at least 3 of them per round) of a character with 50 AB, making it a comfortable number unless someone you're fighting uses True Strike. 80 Parry will give you a 100% rate of riposte attacks against 50 AB attackers.

90 is best because of counter cursing pure Bards for instance, who will crap all over your song.

It will make you immune to maximum 3 attacks per round and not the bonus attack granted by haste because it occurs at the end of a flurry. To play it correctly you need 63 - 70 AC 80 Parry 80 Discipline and Dev Crit to actually make a true riposte. 25 Bard 4 Fighter 1 Ranger does this better than any other class.

what are important spells for a support bard?
lvl 1: mage armor, prot. from x <- answer that way, it makes it seem pretty simple and I know what to pick at what point, instead of looking a huge list of spells.

All the ability buffs, haste, see invisibility, Improve Invisibility, Mass Haste.

It would be easier to make a list of spells that AREN'T decent bard support spells TBH

TeroSNS wrote:

lvl 1: mage armor, prot. from x <- answer that way

Again? You promise to read it this time?

Uberuce wrote:

//Trimmed it down, Sorry bruce.
Must-Have Spells

1st level : Protection from Evil, Mage Armour, Balagarn's Horn
2nd: STR, DEX, CHA buffs, Clarity, See invis
3rd: Haste, GMW, Keen, Wounding Whispers
4th: Improved Invis, War Cry
6th: Mass Haste

If you want pure buffery, that's the essentials, take loads of CHA and everything else is entirely up to you. I don't think the pure buffing route is any good, since you lose about 50% of your offensive ability but only gain about 5% more buffiness. I personally would try for a bit of debuffing ability too(if someone held a gun to my head and insisted I go above 18 finishing CHA*), so take Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment and Confusion as a spell, and you can get a good enough DC to mess up a fair selection of spawns.

*I used to recommend starting at 14 and finishing at 18 since it lets you get an extra Mass Haste a day, but in practise you don't need it, so my Bards these days raise it to 16 and then points go elsewhere.

Uberuce wrote:

TeroSNS wrote:

lvl 1: mage armor, prot. from x <- answer that way

Again? You promise to read it this time?

sorry uberuce :S
and thanks svensk.
.
.
.
I feel lame.

MoshingChris wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Right. Finally, I've got the concept ready. Now i just need to finalize the build a little and ask for advice.

It's going to be an Elven (Sun elf) Bard / RDD (20/10)

Q - I want 'It' to be a Stylish and elegant Parrier, But i cannot afford Dev.Crit. Is it still worth it? Especially on a Lev.20Bard, I find it questionable.
Q - How much parry do you need to make it worthwhile? 70+ ?
Q - Brew potion and Craft wand, Any useful for a Bard?
Q - Does a Lev.20 Bard need Epic skill focus:Preform?

P.S - Im Dreadful at building bards, My biggest flaw.

1. Yes. If it fits your RP go for it. Otherwise no its not worth your time.
2. 70 is good. 80 is better. 90 is best.
3. http://www.nwnwiki.com
4. No.

P.S - I recall numerous cleric-fails.

Yick. I managed to type it wrong, Here's the real Craft question.

Q - Between Craft wand and Brew potion, Which one is the most useful on a bard?

And aye, Clerics are a weakness of mine. But bards are completely uncharted territory

Very_Svensk wrote:

Q - Between Craft wand and Brew potion, Which one is the most useful on a bard?

I'd like to know too, although I could see the wands being pretty useful, as silence could be spread out for wizards and sorcs.

Obviously craft wand, because then you can craft War Cry and Imp Invisi wands.

Brew Potion so you can cook me dat sweet, sweet Wounding Whispers. Don't listen to the Aussie, he's always wrong when he doesn't agree with me.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Brew Potion so you can cook me dat sweet, sweet Wounding Whispers. Don't listen to the Aussie, he's always wrong when he doesn't agree with me.

Can't it be done with Craft wand instead?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Brew_potion
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Craft_wand
Wounding Whispers potion is bollocks for most classes, really. I'm just using you to make my DwD prettier.

My bard has 18 Starting INT. That should be enough to get me my RP Skills *Grumpy voice*
Also took craft wand, Since it sound fancier.

"Dagnabbit, Im out of Improved Invis people, One of you will be without- . . . On no wait, I remember i had an Imp.Invis wand here in my pocket!" *Casts imp Invis and everybody's happy*

You can't possibly need that many skills. Besides, that RDD will get you another +2 INT, though only at epic. That's 8½ skills to max. Perform, Discipline, Concentration, Spellcraft, ½UMD, Parry.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

You can't possibly need that many skills. Besides, that RDD will get you another +2 INT, though only at epic. That's 8½ skills to max. Perform, Discipline, Concentration, Spellcraft, ½UMD, Parry.

#1Concentration33
#2Listen33
#3Discipline33
#4Preform33
#5parry33
#6 Half UMD15
#7 Tumble30
#8 spellcraft!33

Oh, phale.

MoshingChris wrote:

Obviously craft wand, because then you can craft War Cry and Imp Invisi wands.

What? When? Who hax?

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Oh, phale.

Nuuuh. jack of all trades!

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

Obviously craft wand, because then you can craft War Cry and Imp Invisi wands.

What? When? Who hax?

Wiki wrote:

# For the crafting feats (potions, wands, and scrolls), this spell is treated as having an innate level of 3.

I would say Brew Potion, since all the good and uniquely Bardic spells are level 3 for crafting, so you catch the no-UMD market because potions don't need it, and get the got-UMD market too, since you have a product the two-a-penny wandmaker mages can't copy.

Uberuce wrote:

I would say Brew Potion, since all the good and uniquely Bardic spells are level 3 for crafting, so you catch the no-UMD market because potions don't need it, and get the got-UMD market too, since you have a product the two-a-penny wandmaker mages can't copy.

The only 'Unique' Potions a bard can craft are -
War Cry Potions,
Silence Potions,
Wounding whisper potions,
Amplify potions,

The only 'Unique' Wands a bard can craft are -
Sound burst wands,
Amplify wands,
Silence wands,

Apparently you cannot make War Cry Wands.
Strange sidenote - You can make Darkness/grease and Web Potions. Unsure wtf happens when you drink them tho.

Edit - I also wonder what happens if you drink a silence potion.

Amia is the only server I've ever played on that Warcry isn't wand craftable. Strange as bro.

But then yes Brew Potion.

Blank wands are also rare.
While blank potions are limitless in abundance.

I'm pondering a turning-specialist build. Super CHA, lots of Cleric levels, Good and Sun domains, and the Planar Turning feat. I'm thinking Aasimar, for the synchronicity of the race's lore with the concept, and for the +2 CHA/WIS, so I'd be taking an ECL of +1. The theory is to be able to make even high-level tieflings and palemasters fear my mighty, mighty turnings.

Anyone tried this? Is it even viable? Suggestions/comments? My initial build thought is Paladin 4 / Cleric 25.

I don't honestly beleive you can get Plaanr Turning on Amia. If you can, color me surprised. And you should go as pure cleric as possible.

A neat idea for that build would be to also take spell focus feats in Abjuration for your Banishment...although, it seems wrong for a cleric to take that, but it seems fun.

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't honestly beleive you can get Plaanr Turning on Amia. If you can, color me surprised. And you should go as pure cleric as possible.

O jeez, there's a second ability requirement there that I totally missed isn't there...

Well, color me blonde, and, uh, never mind me.

Lizzie wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't honestly beleive you can get Plaanr Turning on Amia. If you can, color me surprised. And you should go as pure cleric as possible.

O jeez, there's a second ability requirement there that I totally missed isn't there...

Well, color me blonde, and, uh, never mind me.

Can always get Good/Evil domain and pwn?

Very_Svensk wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't honestly beleive you can get Plaanr Turning on Amia. If you can, color me surprised. And you should go as pure cleric as possible.

O jeez, there's a second ability requirement there that I totally missed isn't there...

Well, color me blonde, and, uh, never mind me.

Can always get Good/Evil domain and pwn?

I was thinking that the fact that the Good domain turning power allows targets to add more of their spell resistance to resist the turning, made the Planar Turning feat important. But now I wonder... is that even much of a concern? How many people really have enough SR to worry about? Drow, monks, and... ?

Outsider PC's? Not so many
Outsider NPC's? Quite a few

I would expect it would be similar to Terrifying Rage Barbarians with pimped out Intimidate gearsets: when you don't know they have it they take you by surprise and WTF AAARGH overpower NERFhaxNERFhaxNERFhaxNERF pwn you, but once you've seen them in action and know what their trick is you can block it with trivial ease.

I dislike ECL races so I've never played an Outsider, but you can bet yo monkey ass if I did I'd have a SR ring or ammy in my PvP gearset bag for easy swapping when I saw a known Good/Evil padre coming. If I'm reading the Wiki right, the best a level 30 Cleric can turn is 34 effective HD, which for Outsiders means HD +SR, so all you need is 10SR and 24 levels and you're immune.

Uberuce wrote:

I would expect it would be similar to Terrifying Rage Barbarians with pimped out Intimidate gearsets: when you don't know they have it they take you by surprise and WTF AAARGH overpower NERFhaxNERFhaxNERFhaxNERF pwn you, but once you've seen them in action and know what their trick is you can block it with trivial ease.

I dislike ECL races so I've never played an Outsider, but you can bet yo monkey ass if I did I'd have a SR ring or ammy in my PvP gearset bag for easy swapping when I saw a known Good/Evil padre coming. If I'm reading the Wiki right, the best a level 30 Cleric can turn is 34 effective HD, which for Outsiders means HD +SR, so all you need is 10SR and 24 levels and you're immune.

Contingent on availability, I'd try to be packing Disjunction scrolls (yes, I'd need a bit of UMD) to lower a target's SR if necessary. Also, my understanding of the way turning works is that it's really hard to gain immunity from it, in any of the ways that you'd typically gain immunity from Terrifying Rage:

NWNWiki wrote:

Turned creatures are forced to flee from all enemies, and can take no other actions. This is similar to being frightened but can affect those immune to fear or mind-affecting effects (such as most undead creatures). The usual source of this effect is the turn undead ability (hence the importance of affecting those immune to mind-affecting effects).

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Turned

Still maybe a bit too wonky? On top of the SR concerns, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort to supermax out my CHA enough to get the best possible turning checks, which might preclude me from getting enough WIS to cast epic spells, which would be very the suck.

The ring and ammy I have in mind have 16SR, so a level 29 after a dose of Mordy is on 35 effective HD. Immunezors. I didn't check if Sun domain adds to the maximum HD of single target, though.

And yep, Turning is one of the most reliable effects. No save, and only Outsiders get this de facto immunity.

doesn't that have sort of autosuccess on 20 and autofail on roll of 1?

I'm looking for a good Red Dragon Deciple, Monk build for barehanded combat. I'd rather see it go more towards dex with rather more and stronger attacks per round and good doge then dev crit.

Just a vague idea for a character I have, don't know if I'll end up playing it, but I'd like to satisfy my curiosity.

hadeismetirion wrote:

I'm looking for a good Red Dragon Deciple, Monk build for barehanded combat. I'd rather see it go more towards dex with rather more and stronger attacks per round and good doge then dev crit.

Just a vague idea for a character I have, don't know if I'll end up playing it, but I'd like to satisfy my curiosity.

20Monk/sorc/9RDD. Its pretty straight forward

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