I haven't had a ranger very long, but at least from the places I have been, I don't see a lot of love for ranger and harper scouts, or even fighters who only use bows, on bows. I understand yes AA use magic to enhance there skills, but I don't see why a skilled archer or harper or even a fighter that only uses bows couldn't use some of the AA weapons. AA already have the extra things with the skills they get to enhance there arrows. once again I haven't seen all the none AA bows. Why these others couldn't use them as well. I saw a few with Ulimited Ammo and only for AA. I have a feeling this may spark an argument or a debate but I was curious after trying to buy arrows for my ranger.

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"Do or do not there is no try" -Master Yoda-

...Um...what's the question? >_> That seems more like an opinion than anything else.

You don't have to be an AA to get good archer stuff and if you are saying that there isn't any archer love for Rangers, then I'm pretty sure you haven't looked in the right places. Rangers/Druids get the best base arrows in the module in some respects. There are plenty of good arrows that you don't have to be AA to use, dozens of decent bows, and I can name 2 bows off the top of my head with unlimited arrows that any class can use. You just have to look.

As far as not much archer love for harpers, well it's not the most prevalent of classes in general, let alone as an archer. It's like asking why isn't there much archer equipment for PDK's. There just isn't. In respects to fighter, well, name one "fighter only" item. Exactly. It's a generic class. There doesn't really need to be any specific equipment for it. When fighters want to be archers, they take archer feats(with their nifty bonus feats) and/or go into a class that is usually geared towards it, like ranger or rogue.

The AA only items are there largely i believe so simulate the AA's infuse arrow ability. They get special arrows because that is their class ability. None AA types still get some nice stuff though, i think the Seeker Bow is what, +5 AB +5 Mighty +2d6 Massive Crits? From what i recall of the 'best' bow it was not a special class only bow, but a normal one buffed up with Mythals, Enchanted Ash i think? The Forest Defenders were also the best arrows for a long time, but i believe the special AA arrows are better after their last update.

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

Enchanted Ash bow mythalled or the Seeking bows are the strongest combat bows around. And both are useable by non AA chars.

As for the AA arrows, yes they are better than any non AA arrows out there for the same reason WM swords are better than non WM swords..

However there are still plenty of quite good arrows. And rangers can get some of the best of them. The best and most commonly used arrows have no class requirement.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

No, they're better because of what Mith said re: Imbue Arrows, etc.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That's the same thing in my mind however. May just me me though.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I still think the difference between AA arrows and all the other arrows is ridiculous though. It doesn't add to server variety given that AA's already net +1 - +10 damage/ab on their arrows already and will be the best Archers by default regardless of if the enchantment on arrows were exactly the same. Whilst I'm not saying the AA arrows should be nerfed I still don't think having arrows that are effectively twice as strong as what that other guy can use constitutes balance.

I actually find ammunition and ranged type characters to be exceptionally boring and one dimensional on Amia and its one of the things on my list of "shit to change if I possibly can".

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

As I'm playing a bow centric, non-AA character, I'll toss in my observations.

I'd have to say, over all, that it really boils down to Damage, AB, and self defense, in that order.

The Forest Defender is about the best arrow you can lay your hands on. It's +1d6 bludening, +1d6 piercing.
Of course the trade off is it's crap against anything resistant to piercing, like undead.
Bow wise, I've looked over every bow purchasable and its more a combination of attributes than any single manufactured bow. These are the trates to consider:
Massive Critical - this is where the pay off is. The best I've seen is +2d12. Of course you'll want the feats that increase your crit range as Bows and Arrows can't be Keened.
Mighty - This allows you to put your strength bonus into your damage. Best I've seen is +5
These combinations will give you about the best damage results if you can manage the crits and avoid the piercing resistant critters.

Of course the real trouble is the balance between accuracy (AB) and protection (AC). The more you armor up, the less AB you have, as DEX is your bonus to hit. So if you want to cut your dex down, you're going to need to look for a bow with a high Attack Bonus or Enchantment. Or both, though I don't know if Attack Bonus and Enchantment stack for AB. Enchantment also adds to damage.

Your only other option is try and Mythal your own arrows, giving a +1d6 elemental damage and maybe Vampiric Regen to yourself.

There are, also, some specialty arrows out there, but they're only going to be useful for so long, before the difficulty of creatures render their onhit powers or damage usless, which means swapping back to the Forest Defender.

Now, on some of the premade bows there's been some interesting features.
Personally, I wouldn't recomend bows that produce their own arrows. They're not doing the same level of damage as a forest defender. You might pick up one if you need it for a special target that has vulnerability to that element type, but might as well mythal up an elemental arrow for that situation.
I've seen bows that offer bonus to Sneak Attack damage. Those are nice if you can perform sneak attacks and that's your style of combat.
I've seen bows that offer skill bonuses, primarily to sneaking around, and, again, if that's your style, you may want to look at that. Of course, the trade off is low damage.

One thing I've found useful is UMD. It opens up a couple more options in bow purchasing, though it still doesn't get you around that TOP level OOC NOTE for the Arcane Archers on their equipment.

Over all, in the end, if you wan to play an effecitve, butt-kicking archer, you need to focus on build as much as equipment.

I do still like the lore of the AA arrowheads being focal points for their specific talent, but I must admit it was a bad idea for balance and variety.

Splat, there's a longbow that swaps your damage type to Bludgeoning, which is handy against the no-piercy crowd. Due to wacky NWN mechanics, the damage from Forest Defenders is actually 2d6 Piercing unless you are using that bow. You can try this out by asking a buddy to don some Blunt resist items(but not pierce) and shooting him or her. Nothing will be taken off.

Something of note:
Sneak attack bonuses on your bow, won't stack with rogue sneak attack (but will stack with BG or assassin sneak attack)

Bows get AB bonus, not Enchantment bonus. This means, your +AB will break DR, but not add to damage done.

This is handled by Mighty, which is again handled by strength. The max strength you will benefit from taking as an archer is 20 (+5 mod), preferably done with items so you can cap out on your dex or wis.

Massive criticals only add damage on critical hits. As such the 2d12 will average +12 damage on crits, and thus is quite useful.

As Uce said, Forest defenders gives +2d6 piercing because for some reasons, Arrows with physical damage bonus takes on the damage type of the bow they are fired from. (Thoguh I'm not sure this applies to bonus damage type: Bludgeoning/slashing).

Because of this, using forest defenders, massive critical hits, +5 Mighty on a bow and getting bonus damage type bludgeoning will give you some of the heaviest damage for critters in general. Fewer mobs have bludgeoning resist than piercing or slashing. and with the setup shown above, your damage will be:
1d8+5+2d6 (+2d12 on crits) Averaging out to: 4+5+12 = 21(63) damage per hit.

If this damage is bludgeoning and you managed to fit on +5 AB, you should be able to have this be more or less unresistable by most mobs. And since this damage setup doesn't require any real feats or effort from the player's or build's side.. you can put this damage on top of a rogue/fighter with say 10d6 sneak attack and epic weapon spec longbow. Adding in another +6 damage per hit and (average) 30 damage extra on sneak attacks.

21 damage per hit from a bow on average isn't THAT bad. Mind you, most AA's get about 18 damage more per hit average and most of that damage is elemental damage. Instead of taking 11 AA levels for +6 AB and Damage, you can always take just 4 fighter feats for +6 Damage, OR use your bow setup as a BACKUP and focus your entire build on something else entirely. (Which can be QUITE good, if you're a dexer for instance, or a sneak attacker)

Most AA's commit the entire char to only fight from a distance with a bow, compared to most other bow users that use their bows as a backup weapon, then complain about doing lower damage. Your damage can be just as good if you focus on sneaks attack for instance at certain times. And you can always fit in ranged damage type: bludgeoning on your bow, for a slight drop in average damage, but a totally different damage type that works on just about every enemy you'll meet. This would by teh way convert ALL your damage done into bludgoening, sneaks as well I believe.. putting ALL your damage into one type, and thus pounding past DR items like a total bastard.

Although sadly, if you want the top damage with a bow, you need an AA. just like if you want top damage for a weapon, you need WM levels.

My only issue with people demanding more damage for ranged ammunition is that they didn't put levels into a class designed for that thing alone. If the damage was boosted to say 2d10 on ranged ammunition types, you'd be just shy 7-8 damage from an AA that donated 11 or more levels into the class while you got Weapon focuses in melee, and use the bow for support only with sneak attacks that overall cause you to out preform the AA against non-sneak immune targets.

The Optimal thing to do would be to add the damage given by the various AA arrows as a buff or enchantment that AA's can cast on their arrows trough imbue arrow, thus levelling the playing field with the gear to the same as WM/Non WM people get. (For instance xdx boost of damage or alter damage type until next use of imbue feat/rest/reset)
Which is just too much work to do, or even bother with I'm sure, especially since the current system isn't broken.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Is that because the Assassin attack is Death Attack and they're two differnt types of damaging, mechanics-wise?


Gah. I didn't even notice that. Well, that helps me as I've been trying to figure out how to balance stuff by adding a Mythal Enchantment to my bow.


I can agree with you on that. My problem is that, unless you wan to play Elf or Half Elf, there are no other classes that emphasise Ranged attacks other than AA. Most of the effects from Weapon Master are melee only.

I think if there were any improvements for ranged specialists, Feats wise, I'd like to see:
An Overwhelming and/or Devistating Critical rebuilt for ranged weapons
The ability to surprise attack bonus (snipe) targets at longer distance for Rogues, Assassins, and maybe SD/HS? (I've not played SDs or HSs so I'm not sure how well that would fit into their design)

*shrugs* Just some more thoughts.

Meh, there are some pretty sexy arrows out there for non-AA types. Belegs fist lets you pwn some areas with ease; facing off with a mage, open up with some magedeath arrows or arrows of disenchantment; lightning weak? Go with the arrows of Faenya; low fort - hit 'em hard with arrows of stumbling. There are many more arrow types out there and they can be mythalled to specification as well.

Overwhelming Crit and Devestating Critical do work for ranged weapons. Which is probably why, with the new DevCrit, I giggle when I see 400 magical damage from an arrow.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

I don't see how dev crit should work with bows though, after all its like having an AA that is pure str, you are dead before you even get close to them, most ranged spells don't have that effect, why should dev crit have it. But anyways I digress, and its another ball of fun that should stop with the comment, I have seen very heated debated on dev crit before and this is not what the post is about. Thank you for clarifying somethings for me though

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"Do or do not there is no try" -Master Yoda-

Well, I guess I just assumed that as most of the prerequisets for it were melee only (Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave) that the end result would be melee, too.

Still, it doesn't make sense for a ranged based character to put their strength up and focus on those skills. I could see something that replaces Str with Dex, and then sub out the Cleave, Greater Cleave, and Power attack for Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and Point Blank Shot to represent the dedication to archery.

*shrugs* Still more thoughts.

Dev crit's pre reqs should not be subbed out for dex users, absolutely not. It's the only damn thing a strength user has to look forward to unless they're a spellcaster.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

STR gives Damage, AB, and Devcrit if you want it. (carryweight don't count on Amia!)
Dex gives AB, AC, Reflex

Dex is already good enough >_>

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Shouldn't the average be 4+5+6 (+12 on crits) = 15(57)? Or am I missing something about the forest defenders?

>_> Yes it should, I'm just quite tired.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Str adds to Melee AB
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Strength

Dex adds to Ranged AB, except for those using light weapons with Weapon Finess.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Dexterity

I just wanted to clarify that, as your other post makes it sound like a Str archer has the same AB as a Dex archer with equivelent stats.
Also, Dex bonus is penalized by the armor worn and sheild carried. Str doesn't have any such modifier.

And I don't understand why someone who can swing a big chunk of metal around is able to inflict large amounts of critical damage, but someone who can accurately deliver a percise shot isn't able to. Or, in other words, why there cant' be Both a Str and Dex based feat for either of the higher crit Feats. It doesn't have to be both Feats.

*shrugs*

Armor yes, shield no, and only AC. AB and reflex do not incur this penalty.



You are perfectly able to but the fact of the matter is that it would be unbalanced and broken for me to be able to roll a 10 monk/1 wizrd/19 AA with monkspeed, AA, and dex based AC, AB, and dex based Dev Crit. Period.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Arcane Archer builds with Dev Crit are pretty nifty as it is anyway.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

They don't? Cool. I was not aware of that the AB and Ref was unaffected by the max dex bonus of armor. That gives me a differnt view on dealing and managing my Dex now. Thank you.



That makes sense. Keeping mechanics balance is always a pain, and unbalancing is not what I would wish. True, I'd like to see a way to increase my damage or Crit damage, but not at the cost of unbalancing things. *nods* ( <== And this is NON-Sarcasim. Just in case there's any misreading).

Well, thank you both for your imput at least to my part in this thread. I'd ask more questions about this, but that seems to be heading into the Build topic, which has its own thread. And I'll save that for there and another time.

Semi-lore question:
Where do the AA arrows in the module come from?
Was there some origin long long ago where the first master AA on Amia made and gave out the arrows?
Which is to say some may already have been lost with time?

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Prescia the Pristine Voice

DMs gave them out to various AAs when we took their old Onhit Cast Spell arrows, and we let the PCs give them out from there. Its's like Flight and Shadow Jump. We don't directly hand them out and I doubt we'll ever e-seed them unless there's a serious risk of "Extinction" so to speak. As far as I know, no arrows are "lost to time".

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

*Dies from laughter*

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Yeah... funny joke that is... I don't even think there are nay WM only weapons anymore, OOC ones, and the ones that are... aren't better. Trust me.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Both NwN and NwN 2 have a hate on for archers, simple as that. The Arcane Archer prestige class partially fixes that (as it is only aviable to two base races), but anyone else are left with a weapon style that is inferior to more or less any variation of melee combat, ranged divine mighters excepted.

There are som nice non-AA arrows, true, but they are largely situational. Giant slayers work well against giants, and undeath slayers against undead, but it remains a back up weapon. Even when I ran a dex based ranger with bane of enemies, melee was the better option.

Unless the hak pack gives the possibility to add a prestige or base class that gives some of the bonuses the AA class have, archery for non elves will be an inferior option.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

Yarp. The maximum perception range just isn't long enough.
Level design can give it more love by increasing the travelling distance between target and shooter, but it's not yet been done on purpose on Amia. Laying down mazes of the low walls, split levels, water features and other PLC hinderances would work.

I think ranged weapons are fine, they could use improvement on the "fun" side of things, but I see nothing gamebreaking. A dedicated ranger gets +5 AB/DMG and 2d6 dmg from bane of enemies on his bow. Cleric/Pally ZEN types get +5 from favor and average 10 dmg divine might dmg wise (dont get me started on cleric, really). The dedicated AA has AB/dmg a plenty and the dedicated rogue build nets out nice amount of sneaks. Darts, sling and all those other less used ranged things could use some improvement.

The plain bow using fighter will be sucky, yes, but I mean... yeah. NWN favors melee and magic, don't think we need to balance *everything* out.

Personally, i'd like to see some more archery feats. There are only two dedicated feats afterall.

More archer feats... sounds like an interesting idea.


Btw, aren't the AA bows in Winya usable by anyone with a few UMD skill points?

Only OOC restricted items I've seen are deity rings, AA arrows and WM weaponry (some were OOC restricted.. not all I believe).

Sooo, you should be able to use the bows with the AA restrictions, unless it says OOCly otherwise.


Do correct me if I'm wrong.

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By the word of Disco, OOC is moot.

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Prescia the Pristine Voice

Including arrows?

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Why should arrows be an exception to the decree?

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Prescia the Pristine Voice

No. The arrows are restricted. As are Deity rings.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

The arrows are because if you are not AA they are plain junk arrows to you. Its always been that the AA can "activate" them for what it is. That was the IC behind the OOC message for only being AA.

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I've seen a heavy flail and bastard sword I think, inaddition to a double-sided axe that were WM only. The sword was actually pretty good, if only against Evil.

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The point is there is zero options for anyone who wants to do anything else that isn't be an AA with a longbow because of the pure suck of all the other ammunition weapons. Grave doodled alot of things earlier in this thread none of which matter a bees dick when you take into account the AB/Damage bonus from AA. The class is the most loaded class added to NwN and we gave it arrows that let it do more than fighter damage in some cases.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Well since it was mentioned that it was OOC tedium to switch the descriptions of the rings, combined with "Just state that "OOC: Wuzzywazzah" means nothing from now on."
If your statement is the official DM stance regarding OOC restrictions on gear, might I suggest a thread is created in the rules section regarding any and all itty-bitty minor regulations. Eg. Not allowed to RP wings you don't have. This might clear

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Prescia the Pristine Voice

I think that flail is one of the better weapons in the game.. 2d6 or 2d8 bonus damage? They don't make em like that anymore! But is that the fault of AA arrows for being good, or the WM weapons for being general crap? Id say the latter, but I'm (<--look Ragi!) biased in favor of anything elven.. unless its Drow AA. *spits*

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

Yay, Mith! Application of lessons! >.>

*ahem*

There are a dozen and a half topics about the AA arrows and their IC use and creation, etc, so I won't go into it here. As a player of a Dev Crit: Bow AA character... Fun combination. Totally worth it. Just try it if you're interested in archers.

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The crossbow arrows are quite good and nothing stops you from using a shortbow. I see nothing wrong with AAs being the best archers. Do clerics complain that WM-

nevermind, yes they do, actually, but my point is that few people seem to have issues with WMs being the 'best' in mundane melee just like AAs are the best in archery.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Which is fine. Except for the fact that WM's don't get a bunch of arbitrarily assigned weapons that widen the gulf between them and other mundane melee types. My ranger can use a WM's sword, as can my Paladin, my rogue, any number of my characters.

There is the difference. AA's get front-loaded WM-like boni and advantages and then are the only characters operating from range which are assigned decent munitions.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Fair enough.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Well, it could be there's less complaints, and this is just my opinion, that WM are open to any race so they sit as an always possible option in the back of the head, while AA's are open only 2 races and that stands out more noticable because of the limited accessability?

I played a longbow using Non-AA character for a time. Even with HIPS and Epic Dodge it was still the kinda build I'd never want again. So tedious. Could spend hours chipping away and miss half my hits. When I did hit, it was like a bee sting. Waste of time, better off going Melee. Its one of the reasons I haven't made a ranged character in a while, with the exception of my Shortbow dude.

Eventually, one day, I'll get around to making those items I said I would like...two years ago xD

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I do have a level 30 pure ranger. I started it as a ranged, bow using hunter, but quit and went for tower shield and katana instead. There are two reasons, both Amia specific:
1: The spawns almost always appear around your feet. As a hunter, you want them to appear at a distance. Now, you have to move in stealth, spawn the critter, move back to a sufficient distance and begin to take down the enemies. I assume that the reason for this is the small maps in Amia with lots of spawns. You don't want the spawns to appear too close if two groups enter from different directions. Still, areas like arachnaid valley are ok for a hunter, I just wish more were like that.
2: The enemies have been given far too high spot in Amia, much higher than the original critters have. "What's wrong with that?" you might ask. The problem is in the NWN mechanic. The high spot makes the whole spawned group charge you after the first hit on anyone of them. It's impossible to take out parts of the group and you don't want to be surrounded by a full group where all get an attack of opportunity on you whenever you use your bow. The traditional hunters way is to use called shots at the legs to hurt the enemies as much as possible before they reach you since the AC is 7-8 points lower without a shield and you do half the damage you can do in melee. Since the whole group comes for your throat anyway, it's better to go in stealthy in melee and charge them instead, taking out the casters in the first attack. The spot is low enough for hunting for level 2-10 though. Hunting orcs, trolls, bugs and so on is as it use to be in other servers. It's when you reach the areas where higher level spawns reside you can't "hunt" with a bow anymore, making an archer useless. A solution to make the areas more "hunter friendly" for bow using characters is to lower the spot value of the enemies, but that would perhaps make the shadow dancers drool with happieness, or why is the spot value sky high otherwise?

Nope, that's because you're not in stealth mode any more after your first hit. Dumping the critter Spot/Listen down to zero won't help that, but you as correctly say, that would make SD's win win win.

I've never doubted your knowledge bout NWN mechanics Uberuce, but how come that you can select individual spiders, orcs, trolls and so on and trick them towards you, but for instance bandits at Pearldivers bay, northern orcs, northern barbarians, and the animals in Forrstakkr all attack en masse whenever you hit just one. To my own knowledge, the amount of points in the spot skill also determines the range the enemy can see you at, so if you have a higher spot range than the enemy has, you can hit one and attract just that enemy to you, or that one and some enemy standing adjacent to it. At least, it was the way the official campaign was possible to be accomplished with an archer character.