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WM 5, Barbarian 19, SD 6?

that doable?

ShadowSoul89 wrote:

Are there any good Rogue/Blackguard builds out there? Race is Tiefling, shooting for a dexer. And if at all possible, a fiendish servant would be nice. This is probably a challenge...

Tiefling kind of screws it up. 13 Rogue/16 Blackguard/1 Ranger 'works' for level 30 PCs, though it's more for novelty. You'd have to drop the Ranger level, which means one less feat and no dual-wield. It can be lived with.

I'd go Barb24/WM5/rogue1.

Dex based WM/Rogue/Fighter - Wielding a rapier Two-handed. Weapon finesse works on rapiers, and gives you a fancy crit-ratio.

Plus, you can do pretty decent damage and have high AB, and have lots of AC while you don't die by going two-handed

I'd go Team Awesome and go for a Cloakshadow guy: Paladin17/Rogue13 Epic Dodger. I just love the coolbeans factor of a Pally who's sponsored by his or her god to be a sneaky liar. Rogue19/Pally5/Ftr6 for a Fearless savesy Sneakwhoring guy who can do some Bless Weaponing is probably worth a pop too.

Svensk, you tart. Rapiers arn't Finesse for Small races.

That does indeed sound awesome! Any reason to take Paladin 17 and not go Paladin 16 + 1 Ranger, for the free feat and some free dual wielding for fun?

BTW. Johanna Hardingdale still around?

You miss out spells/day and the usual CL perks, but the free feat probably beats it. I'd be inclined to go for Improved TWF, so the free Dualwield is moot, but I admit I'd not even glanced at a build for it, so I dunno how feasible that is.

I'd need a lot of charisma to make the paladin 17 worthwile, wouldn't I? That work while while still getting enough dex to epic dodge?

What about... rogue 13, ranger 11, paladin 6?

Free improved two-weapon fighting, and some cool ranger stuff (blade thirst among them) + cool paladin stuff?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

ShadowSoul89 wrote:

Are there any good Rogue/Blackguard builds out there? Race is Tiefling, shooting for a dexer. And if at all possible, a fiendish servant would be nice. This is probably a challenge...

Tiefling kind of screws it up. 13 Rogue/16 Blackguard/1 Ranger 'works' for level 30 PCs, though it's more for novelty. You'd have to drop the Ranger level, which means one less feat and no dual-wield. It can be lived with.

Blarg... I'm guessing that dropping BG to four and focusing more on rogue would be better?

Kjetta wrote:

That does indeed sound awesome! Any reason to take Paladin 17 and not go Paladin 16 + 1 Ranger, for the free feat and some free dual wielding for fun?

BTW. Johanna Hardingdale still around?

The player is, I dunno if the PC is.

ShadowSoul89 wrote:

Blarg... I'm guessing that dropping BG to four and focusing more on rogue would be better?

Not really much point in the BG levels then, I'm afraid! You're not going to get much out of the saves due to the Tiefling Charisma penalty, and anything else can be done better through Fighter.

Kjetta wrote:

I'd need a lot of charisma to make the paladin 17 worthwile, wouldn't I? That work while while still getting enough dex to epic dodge?

What about... rogue 13, ranger 11, paladin 6?

Free improved two-weapon fighting, and some cool ranger stuff (blade thirst among them) + cool paladin stuff?

Spreading yourself too thin, there. You can fit Epic Dodge and 14WIS onto just about anything if you don't have to worry about the other stats, so abandon the Divine Might/Shield route, especially since the 13STR requirement really stings a gnome. What you have left is an Epic Dodger with Divine Favour+3, Prayer, GMW+5, Bless Weapon and Bless/Aid on top of reasonable Sneak dice and an easy +6 universal saves bonus even if you keep base CHA at 10.

Paladin with 10CHA is still pretty good, it's just not *as* good as Paladin with 18 or so. Epic Dodge, however, makes up a lot of ground. I think I'd prefer to play the 19/5/6 version, though.

@Kjetta

A few things you'll have to deal with as a rogueish gnome from someone who's spent some time over the years thinking about it:

STR penalty
No DEX Bonus
Small

So, you'll be spending more ability points on DEX or using more Epic Dex feats than comparable builds in other races to reach the Epic Dodge threshlod. You'll also have lower base STR so you need to go for other sources of damage.

You can go dual as you initially suggested to get more attacks but you are more limited due to being "small". I'd avoid small hammers as if you dual wield them you will take it in the AB since they aren't considered "light offhand weapons" for small races. You can only dual wield tiny weapons and get the smallest AB penalty (-2). That leaves you with daggers and kukris. The only thing hammers have going for them (if you are medium sized) is that no one uses them so you can pickup SureStrikes and Wonderforgeds on the cheap and build an entire collection for the price of one wonderforged scimitar or kukri by the time you reach epic levels.

You can go WM to increase crit damage and frequency but that comes with a significant feat investment.

You can go divine class as suggested to get damage from weapon buffs.

You can do what Hendrack is doing and max out your sneak dice. I'm also doing this on my Hin rogue where I'll take 29 Rogue levels. This means you'll kick some serious arse in parties where you have someone tanking and setting you up to flank something sneakable. There is usually something sneakable unless it's an undead heavy zone. Sneaks are sneaks so 15D6 Sneak dice is nothing to sneeze at. You'll hit like a sick kitten if you aren't sneaking but thems the breaks.

One suggestion I have is the "cunningly devilish and inventive gnomish trap master" with heavy rogue levels. Max out disable trap, set trap, and craft trap. A string of epic traps will put a big dent in any boss and having umpteen gajillion skill points does come in handy. I always wondered if it were possible to DC request a custom trap of your own design which would nicely (I think) align with gnomish inventiveness. You can snag a class with discipline as a class skill late in epic to top up your discipline and get shield proficiency as you only need 29 rogue levels to max out sneak dice as they fall on odd levels. The extra 6-7 AC will likely come in handy at some point.

I tapped out a 19 Rogue 1 Ranger 10 Paladin and it worked fairly well.

As for my own Gnome chap I'm looking at playing 16 Barb 1 Ranger 13 Rogue also known as the Terrifying Dodger (indeed his draft name is Terrence Dodger).

What I can't decide is whether gimping strength to 8 is worth it in favour of an extra round on raging.

The current schematics look as such

8STR
18DEX
16CON
8WIS
14INT
8CHA

He'll be using daggers.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

ShadowSoul89 wrote:

Blarg... I'm guessing that dropping BG to four and focusing more on rogue would be better?

Not really much point in the BG levels then, I'm afraid! You're not going to get much out of the saves due to the Tiefling Charisma penalty, and anything else can be done better through Fighter.

Sigh... So much for my infernal cultist. I'll look into other stuff, thanks.

Hendrack and Mosh's both playing gnomes. Awesome. I better get to it, before you're level 30. You're not evil, are you? Thinking I'll try the build suggested by UCE (never failed me in the past, so...)

My gnome is paladinfriendly NG. Though me and Mosh ought to make Urdlen gnomes again in the future.

Kjetta wrote:

Hendrack and Mosh's both playing gnomes. Awesome. I better get to it, before you're level 30. You're not evil, are you? Thinking I'll try the build suggested by UCE (never failed me in the past, so...)

I hope that means the 19/5/6, if only because I know nothing Rogue19/Ftr6+Epic Dodge can possibly fail. Even if you bribed Tormak with catgirl pictures of Yossarin until he LETO'd five levels of Commoner onto it, you'd still pwn.

Pally16/Ranger1/Rogue13 will struggle to be dreadful too, but I'm less confident.

Uberuce wrote:

Kjetta wrote:

Hendrack and Mosh's both playing gnomes. Awesome. I better get to it, before you're level 30. You're not evil, are you? Thinking I'll try the build suggested by UCE (never failed me in the past, so...)

I hope that means the 19/5/6, if only because I know nothing Rogue19/Ftr6+Epic Dodge can possibly fail. Even if you bribed Tormak with catgirl pictures of Yossarin until he LETO'd five levels of Commoner onto it, you'd still pwn.

Pally16/Ranger1/Rogue13 will struggle to be dreadful too, but I'm less confident.

Bahahahah Goddamn it, Uce, I had a mouthful of coffee.

Urdlen Gnomes!

The purpose of which will be to get to 30 and then kill themselves!

I wont be playing until early feb Kjetil. I believe Pusty is looking to start a sideline business in Gnomes as-well.

I'll be going Chaotic Good albiet considering a more traditional Barbarian build over the next month given I don't want another throw away character.

I'm gonna follow Uce blindly in this, I think. Will be fun at the very least.

Thinking maces are the way to go. Pretty cool crushing knees then ribs then faces like that, as I imagine short fellows with blduge weapns do!

@ Mosh: I will try to offer the best "throw away characters" I can. Side-kicks and plot devices I'll provide, nothing more! Hoo-raah!

Kjetta wrote:

BTW. Johanna Hardingdale still around?

Yes. What do you need?

MoshingChris wrote:

As for my own Gnome chap I'm looking at playing 16 Barb 1 Ranger 13 Rogue also known as the Terrifying Dodger (indeed his draft name is Terrence Dodger).

He'll be using daggers.

A Gnome Dual wielding Daggers doesn't sound very Terrifying :mrgreen:

3 Feet Tall with two 4 Inch Blades, screaming and charging me would more likely result in a laugh, especially if I am a Race thats Twice your size. :twisted:

Bet you'll stop laughing when the kneestabbing beginns...

Kjetta wrote:

That does indeed sound awesome! Any reason to take Paladin 17 and not go Paladin 16 + 1 Ranger, for the free feat and some free dual wielding for fun?

BTW. Johanna Hardingdale still around?

The Ranger route is the way to go, yus. I can remember Cloakie making the Gnome Rogue13/Pally16/Ranger1 with CHA 14, WIS 14 and Epic Dodge. Terribly gimmick but captures all the aspects of a paladin and is a beast when buffed. Looking forward to seeing you around, hun.

For some reason the thought of being attacked by a mob of gnomes is utterly frightening. Kinda like running into a gang of angry clowns and quickly realizing they just aren't "right" up there.

*shudders*

Better make a gnome for myself to ward off the heebie jeebies................

maglorine wrote:

For some reason the thought of being attacked by a mob of gnomes is utterly frightening. Kinda like running into a gang of angry clowns and quickly realizing they just aren't "right" up there.

*shudders*

Better make a gnome for myself to ward off the heebie jeebies................

Kind of like being attacked by Hell's Grannies.

I'd guess...

13 str
15 dex
10 con
14 wis
10 int
14 cha

with Dodge as first feat, finesse as third? Take 1 rogue, then the paladin levels to maximize AB, then back to rogue, ending with ranger?

I've been working on a level 30 bard build all day now and it keeps coming out crap. Could someone please help me make one?

Race is: Half-elf
Weapon is: Longsword or Rapier

Dex based, strength based, or charisma based? First is an AC whore, second is the offensive one, and third is the all around party buffer.

Unsure. Not charisma based, but I'd like 16 cha. Would dex or str be best for PVM?

I've never played a full bard here. I do have a bard/fighter build I was making that was strength based. He seemed really efficient. I imagine that dex based would be more survivable and the strength based would clear rooms faster.

The downside to strength based is that you tend to suffer with either AC or spellcasting until you can find and afford some 0% spell failure armor.

Ruce can get far more technical than I can with bards, I hear. I love bards, but rarely play them. Odd, that.

Half-Elf

STR: 13 (Raise to 20 by level-ups)
DEX: 13
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 16

Pre-epic Feats: Curse Song, Extend Spell, Maximise Spell, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Knockdown

Epic: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Fort, Improved Knockdown, Armor Skin
Bard Bonus Feats: Lasting Inspiration, Epic Perform, Epic Discipline

Skills:
Perform: 33
Discipline: 33
UMD: 10
Tumble: 30
Spellcraft: 33
Concentration: 33

You'll have skill points left over.

13 Dex + Max Cats spell will be 18 which fits rather well with the amount of ASF 0 chain on the server.

Dex based bards are as inefficient as all get out.

MoshingChris wrote:

!

Awesome, thanks!

I was wondering how Rogue 15 / Ranger 15 works out.
I have Fighter 4 now, but was thinking to drop them at level cap because the character didn't really have any formal fighter training. I guess I was doing it for solo, but the char. has no "fighter" feats anyway.
Character is level 24 now, so room for improvement.

Any suggestions?
Thank you

How much hide is it worth to invest into a rogue 30 cornersneaker? I think Mosh said 80-90+ hide is enough for PvM cornersneaking, but how many players have that 100+ spot neurosis like I have? Question is if I want to invest into ESF:Spot/Hide or get improved sneaks in epic.

Speaking of sneaks:

1) What's corner sneaking?

2) What's the 1/10/100 rule on spot and such?

Thanks!

Last edited by Uberuce on Sun, Jan 02 2011, 22:17 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Kudark wrote:

Rogue 15 / Ranger 15

The split's not doing you as much good so deep in the middle. You can go as low as 5 Ranger or as high as 28, but don't set it middling.

You need at least 21 levels of Ranger to get the +5 Enhancement Blade Thirst and Bane of Enemies. Between 10 and 21 on Ranger is a gulf of nothing much going on except the pet getting better, but that is only useful when you're beating up things where a level 10-20 companion can hold its own, and you won't seriously fight them at level 30. Ranger 25's pet is nasty enough for epic, but level 26-28 is going to be shade better. That takes down your Sneak Attack dice though, and in my opinion you get more bang for your buck out of 3d6 Sneak on you and the 25th level pet than 1d6 and 28th, but it's not a great difference each way.

If you're not going the proper Ranger route, then you could go the proper Rogue route of Rogue25/Ranger5 and just use Ranger to get the 4th attack, a free Epic WF from Ranger5 and that snazzy Hide/MS boost outdoors. If you want the best saves and AB from the Rogue version, you could go Rogue12/Ranger8 into Rogue19/Ranger11, which frees up three feats for proper dualwielding and grants Epic WF for free as Ranger10. You get another die of Sneak attack from Rogue21/Ranger9, but what you gain from 19/11 is better.

The above assumes you really only want Rogue and Ranger. On the 19/11 split in particular, you're better to go 19/10 and then you can pick and choose from all the things that are good in a single dose.

Naivatkal wrote:

Speaking of sneaks:

1) What's corner sneaking?

2) What's the 1/10/100 rule on spot and such?

Thanks!

Cornersneaking is the act of breaking line of sight with The Other People and then going into stealth mode. Cornersneaking in NWN is almost a bad name since a lot of things are plainly good enough to hide behind, but don't break LoS, but many others are plainly not adequate over and work just fine. My favourite example is the pole under the canopy of Yaegan's shop in Wiltun square - every time you see someone go half-shaded on the other side of it, they could cornersneak, even though it's only five inches wide. Conversely, most trees, regardless of width, aren't considered wide enough to break LoS.

It's utter arse in PvM compared to finding things that are easy to KD and just trip'n'shanking them, but in PvP it is incredibly good, precisely because of the 1/10/100 rule.

The 1/10/100 rule is inaccurate, because really it's the 9/26/100+ rule; what both refer to is the Spot score of the Amian populace, because hardly anyone takes Spot ranks and almost every character that doesn't cast WIS-base spells dumps their score at 8, so they have -1 Spot. However, if anyone suspect sneakiness, they use True Seeing items because they last longer than See Invis, and therefore have 9 Spot. Cleric and Druids run around at 38-42WIS with True Seeing up, so they get 26 Spot. Then you have people that actually want to see stealthers, and they equip, sing or cast their way to +50 skill, +12WIS, have Epic Skill Focus, and an Alertness item (or the feat) at the very least, for a score ranging between 100 at worst to...115, is it? I forget.

Hendrack: Improved Sneak Dice, all the way, although you are already a silly person for going pure Rogue when the maths of the fourth attack is plainly better. If anyone is concerned about SD's, they will see a cornersneak. What you do then is kill their no-Spot friends and deal with them by other means. I had much more success leaving Va's Hide/MS down at 40 and boosting his saves than by whapping up Hide/MS. Admittedly he had no epic foci, so he was only on 90's.

Ahhh I see, I see
So, for the most part a Hide/MS of 50 is going to beat most spotters, since not everyone amasses the 100+, eh?

Uberuce, MoshingChris, etc. wrote:

a lot of things.

Reading this thread makes me feel very, very dumb.

Don't feel bad, that's how I felt when I first came into this XD

Also, I've been thinking of stuff on my drowess bard assassin
I think I might do a spread of Bard 22/SD 6 or Bard 21/SD 6/Ranger 1

Dunno if I want the 22 Bardsong or the Ranger 1 feats ><

In either case, stats/feats/skills will roughly be:

STR: 12
DEX: 14 (20)
CON: 10
WIS: 10
INT: 16
CHA: 18 (19)

Bluff 30(34), Hide 30(35), Lore 7(31), Move Silently 30(35), Perform 30(47), Spellcraft 30(33), Tumble 30(35), UMD 30(34), remaining skillpoints 12

Curse Song, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Lingering Song, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus: Perform, Maximize Spell, Epic Skill Focus: Perform, Lasting Inspiration, Favored Enemy: Elves

Nothing is left over except the 12 skills right now. Bluff is to maintain the fact that she travels to the surface and needs to bluff her way around with assassinations and such.
Also, I upped CHA to 19 without thinking about it, as I was trying to up her CHA to 20+ then thought about it and realized that upping her STR or DEX would be better, heh
I went with DEX over STR because she will be wearing light or medium armor and with Weapon Finesse it gives her a high AC and AB

Ideas?

Don't go dexterity.

An assassin is supposed to be able to kill things, dexterity based bards fail in this regard.

That was one thing I wasn't sure on, STR or DEX

So, let's go with:

STR: 12 (18)
DEX: 14
CON: 10
WIS: 10
INT: 16
CHA: 18 (19)

Also, gonna pull out the Weapon Finesse to leave room for another feat. Improved Critical, perhaps? I've not done a Bard so I'm just trying to make sure I cover the vital things.

Any thoughts on the Ranger level and extra skills?

To much Charisma.

You can swing it to 22 Strength and 16cha by the endgame.

I'm a big fan of the 14/14/14/14/8/14 on a bard, with your 8 being Wisdom.

Oh she's already been made.
I suppose it's too much, but she is also a part RP build. The CHA helps with her being conniving and such. That's why I cut it off at 19, because I think that's plenty lol
Should have left it at the 18 at most

19 won't do a single thing in comparison to 18.

I know, cause like I said I was going to go to 20 and realized it was a waste to do so. *shrugs* I can wear a tier 1/3/5 CHA cloak, though, and it's not worthless I guess XD

Last edited by .Alterix. on Mon, Jan 03 2011, 7:55 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Talos based Caster/Zen Archery Hybrid Druid with Darts for the aspect of the "Stormlord"..

Go...

And by that I, Can I please have advice on the build? :mrgreen:

*Edit*

I considered the Dragonshape Build on page 68 As it kind of fits, however, I wasnt sure that Dragonshape would be a proper goal for a Talos based Druid *Shrug*

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