AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Very_Svensk wrote:

Three Dm's! Congrats Herra!

I've seen a-lot of this lately and its not correct. Three DM's is the requirement to get something moved to the backstage areas from IA, not to get something approved. This is my fault I think because some of you have misinterpreted something I said in IA and that misinterpretation has become a miasma.

Three DM's might get you something approved, however one DM can get anything denied if that DM has good reasons behind denying your request.

Three DMS of 19 is so far away from anything even resembling a majority it makes my head hurt, and the same goes for requests but the fact of the matter is so few of the DMs regularly read those forums that I have to take what I can get.

Nope, there are no set number for requests. Depends entirely on what it is.

not that it really matters, but dont we only have 15 DMs active?

sure its a majority Tormak, its a majority based off the people who voted, anyway dont things only pass with around 3 DMs after a week or so has passed and offen after a DM has requested other DMs to speak up.

and its not like the DMs let anything real major get passed with 3 votes, or have passed anything overpowered or stupid as the ones who offen reply are the ones who make sure things are aboveboard.

corypx wrote:

not that it really matters, but dont we only have 15 DMs active?

Some don't usually comment at all. So it's still up the the 7 we usually see.

To combat the Fallacy:

DM list (Taken from R&L)

AlannaMolov - Out for RL reasons.
Bobo_Underhill - Has posted in Requests recently.
Fabian - Out for RL reasons.
Gers - Has posted in Requests recently.
GothicSauce - Has posted in Requests recently.
Hexx_Stonebeard - No longer a DM.
Infernal_Pain - Has posted in Requests recently.
Khylaria - Has posted in Requests recently.
Lalelilolu - Has posted in Requests recently.
Leggomi Eggolas - Out for RL reasons.
Mahtan Tasadur - Has posted in Requests recently (does Dev work, too).
Nekhy - Has posted in Requests recently.
PaladinOfSune - Has posted in Requests recently.
Peeves - Has posted in Requests recently.
TormakSaber - Has posted in Requests recently.
Transcendental Templar - Has posted in Requests recently.
Yossarin - Has posted in Requests recently.
Ziacat - No longer a DM.

---

As you can see, there are definitely more than seven DMs active. Each of the DMs noted above have posted in the Requests forum in the last month. Three is definitely not a majority of thirteen.

Maias227 wrote:

The life circle of a request

[list]1: The request gets posted in the request forum and gets initial feedback from DMs.

1a: Alternatively a request can be posted directly in the DC-discussion forum and bypassing the whole request forum all together.

2: When given the go-ahead the request is moved to the DC- Discussion forum. This is a hidden DM forum where we discuss your request and reach a decision. You will not be able to see the request while in this state and the request will vanish from the request forum.

3: You will be informed when the Team has reached an agreement by a pm.

As posted in the request forum. It seems fairly clear to what the process is. However, looking at the requests themselves, it's being shortcutted by most of the DM's. By not using the process, an exponential amount of confusion is reigning.

Perhaps an addendum maintaining that a request that does not move to the DM forums requires meet a clear criteria before approval no matter how many DM's are "cool" with it.

Mosh is talknig about Improving Amia. I am talking about Requests. 2 different things.

From what I've seen, relatively straightforward requests like skinchanges, rebuilds without major changes or RP items generally are okayed after 3-6 DMs say it's fine (And no DM take issues with it, or feel it needs something more)

No two requests are the same after all, and the story, reason and potential power behind your request plays ALOT into how many DMs generally need to okay it before it's approved.

It's my observation and experience anyway.

TormakSaber wrote:

Mosh is talknig about Improving Amia. I am talking about Requests. 2 different things.

Yup I am talking about how something I said in Improving Amia seems to have been taken to the requests forum when it shouldn't have been. A DC/rebuild request is based on its own merits and is approved -when- it is approved. There is no lower or upper limit on how many DM approvals you may or may not need for something to be approved.

I feel so surprisesecksed right now...

Koragi Mydnite wrote:

TAs you can see, there are definitely more than seven DMs active. Each of the DMs noted above have posted in the Requests forum in the last month. Three is definitely not a majority of thirteen.

One post, does not, an active DM, make. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I'm sure some DMs have their own field of expertise and can't be expected to be everywhere at once.

The ones I see with the most participation in requests, in no particular order:
- Tormak
- Yossarin
- Sune
- Peeves
- Lally
- Chris (???)

3 nods from any combination of them should be a good benchmark to forward the request.

The DMs have their way of dealing with requests, and it doesn't really need to be put into clear rules for players to see. Your request is approved when it's approved, and what goes on behind the scenes is really none of our business. You don't have to worry about counting votes and evaluating arguments, the DMs do all that for you and just tell you Yay or Nay. If a DM who deals with requests a lot realizes that this is a no-brainer request, maybe (s)he'll approve it off the bat. Maybe not. They answer to eachother for the decisions they make, not a codified process.

IronAngel wrote:

The DMs have their way of dealing with requests, and it doesn't really need to be put into clear rules for players to see. Your request is approved when it's approved, and what goes on behind the scenes is really none of our business. You don't have to worry about counting votes and evaluating arguments, the DMs do all that for you and just tell you Yay or Nay. If a DM who deals with requests a lot realizes that this is a no-brainer request, maybe (s)he'll approve it off the bat. Maybe not. They answer to eachother for the decisions they make, not a codified process.

You saying DMs shouldn't have to clarify on their rules/ect..

And on the Other, you have DMs complaining because we (As players) are *potentially* unclear on said rules and making assumptions.

In a perfect world, Rules would be made 1000% clear, so when a Player tries to reference said rule under the argument that "I didn't know, or wasn't sure" it would go right out the window. (To avoid potential DM headache)

A Player who is making assumptions on Server/Dev/DM Rules is in the wrong, however, when the cause of said assumption is a vague or unclear definition of a rule/ect, don't you think more than the player is to blame?

There's no "rule" here. The only rule is that DMs say Yes or No to your request. Players don't need to assume anything. What you're talking about is appropriate enough for things like PvP rules and other codes of conduct, but it has absolutely no relevance here.

IronAngel wrote:

There's no "rule" here. The only rule is that DMs say Yes or No to your request. Players don't need to assume anything. What you're talking about is appropriate enough for things like PvP rules and other codes of conduct, but it has absolutely no relevance here.

If there is no rule, then there is nothing to break, meaning this thread shouldn't of popped up in the first place.

But it did, from a Dev no less, *Because* There is no rule and players are left to assume what they can based on what they get.

That is the relevance from my opinion.

If there was a rule saying "Do not ask if a request has gone though, leave that to the DMs currently working on your request to deem necessary" Then this most likely wouldn't be happening in the first place.

This is, as I said, From my opinion, so take it however you wish.

This post clarifies to those who might think otherwise that what Mosh said in Improving Amia isn't a DM policy concerning the Requests forum. That's all. Nothing dramatic, no "rules broken". You're always welcome to ask about your request. You wanted to avoid player confusion, and that's exactly what this topic does. You're asking already busy DMs to slow the Request process further by coming up with artificial rules that don't actually help them deal with Requests, just so players can feel good about their knowledge, basically.

So what is the 'rule' on the number of DM approvials required to get a request approved?

There is/was no rule. And even if there is one now, you don't need to know.

IronAngel wrote:

There is/was no rule. And even if there is one now, you don't need to know.

So when does someone know when they got their request approved?

This is -Very- Contradictory.

When the DMs tell you, obviously. You don't see the votes anyway, they happen in private.

IronAngel wrote:

This post clarifies to those who might think otherwise that what Mosh said in Improving Amia isn't a DM policy concerning the Requests forum. That's all. Nothing dramatic, no "rules broken". You're always welcome to ask about your request. You wanted to avoid player confusion, and that's exactly what this topic does. You're asking already busy DMs to slow the Request process further by coming up with artificial rules that don't actually help them deal with Requests, just so players can feel good about their knowledge, basically.

Having a rule which clearly defines this situation (while by passing all of this potential headache) does exactly the same thing, is the point I am trying to make.

Aka..

" You are free to inquire about the various steps involving your request, however, you are to never assume that something has approval based on X number of DMs, Leave that to the DMs currently working on your project to inform you. Doing so will result in possible disciplinary action or denial of said request. "

Ta-da, Headache avoided.

But I'm just a player so feel free to step all over that all you like ( And I mean that in a completely non asinine way, even if it doesn't sound like it )

EDIT: Damnit, I'm sorry, Alterix, I accidentally edited this post when I meant to quote it and inadvertently erased the entire message...

-Yoss

I'm fairly sure that somewhere on the forums it's said that "a Request isn't approved until you're told it's approved." If not, I think that sort of falls under common sense. You never know, though.

IronAngel wrote:

I'm fairly sure that somewhere on the forums it's said that "a Request isn't approved until you're told it's approved." If not, I think that sort of falls under common sense. You never know, though.

Sadly common sense isnt a very good argument when dealing with the internet and its users. (Customer Service Rep)

The complaint there is, its not exactly fair to expect players to dig though hundreds of posts when it could clearly be labeled in say, a Rules section. (If it isnt)

"Somewhere on the forums" Isnt exactly a good reference when dealing with something that could potentially warrant disciplinary action if said problem gets out of hand. (As is what *I am assuming* could be the case)

"The life circle of a request" wrote:

2: When given the go-ahead the request is moved to the DC- Discussion forum. This is a hidden DM forum where we discuss your request and reach a decision. You will not be able to see the request while in this state and the request will vanish from the request forum.

3: You will be informed when the Team has reached an agreement by a pm.

See this link.

There is, as stated above, no information about the details of what happens in step #2 (ie. how many DMs need to approve it) - 'it is a hidden DM forum' and the decision-making process is irrelevant to us as players. Ignore the man behind the curtain.

Sorry but this is just a seriously dumb thing to complain about imho..

When you make your request, you either ask for it to be sent to the DM forums and poke the DM you PMed it to once in a while to ask about it's progress.. OR you have a simple enough request that it can stay on the Requests forum, and the DMs give you a good feel for how long you'll have to wait with the answers they give.

Sometimes it's plain and easy answers because they didn't have an issue with it, and then one of them eventually say "This is approved" in one form of the phrase or another, or multiple of them say it's denied because of reason X.

EVERY request is different, and if they were set to a specific rule that this and that request requires X numbered of approvals, it doesn't change the fact that most of the time it would VARY.

Here's the WHY:

Your request will not be the SAME as another similar request, and as a reason the DMs may want to see more, or want more DMs to chime in on the okay before it's approved.

It just annoys me that people would actually start complaining about a simple fact like this. My guess is that the people that actually complains have gotten their requests denied several times, or have sat back and not proactivly followed up their own requests with patience.

Personally I have had ALOT of requests over the years, and I've never had a single issue where I felt I was treated unfairly or "deserved" to get something approved after X numbers of DMs said yes. When I had gotten a certain amount of yays on a request, I simply asked how many more I needed and then I got an answer. HERE is a link to one of my requests, and I got it approved and done after I asked Tranny ingame how many more I'd need to get it approved.(Before a wave of people start nagging at DMs ingame now, I should note that it was at a time where few players were around, and he had just asked in shout if anyone needed anything) He took a look and gave it to me.

The times I've gotten a request denied, I've always gotten a reason when I asked for it. I took the reason to heart, and either dropped the request all together or dealt with the things they wanted to see and requested it again at a later time. The time I did the latter, I got it approved btw.

Please define "Go-Ahead" as to me, that means approval.

Does this mean that a request has to be approved to be placed in that specific forum, for DM discussion, before it can even be considered for approval?

.Alterix. wrote:

Please define "Go-Ahead" as to me, that means approval.

Does this mean that a request has to be approved to be placed in that specific forum, for DM discussion, before it can even be considered for approval?

It would likely depend on the request, and you can just go ahead and ASK them if it comes up. Problem solved, as you'll get an answer.

There's no set number of approvals needed because requests vary, as do the reasons people request them and the RP they've done for them. It'd simply be impossible to have a one-size-fits-all ruling for this.

When the requests are pretty much stock standard, as is for item spawners and say, summoned dragon colour changes (your character is LG, you want a silver dragon and haven't been RPing CE, for example), it's a bit different.

A confused player wrote:

Second, You have DMs/Devs complaining about this because it causes headache.

The only real fallacy here is this. I don't think DMs and Devs get headaches over request crap. This thread was just a benevolent note to save you the trouble of getting yourselves worked up, even though watching you get worked up gives me ample entertainment.

Rules are made nebulous because its more about the spirit than the letter of the law. Rules lawyering sucks, requests are a seriously subjective thing. Its not feasible to follow some flow chart or itinerary or methodology. The complexity of such a chart, or ability to 'game the system' if one knew such is likely why things are held to obscura.

Only thing a player needs to know is how to answer this question with their request: 'How does this request provide something beneficial to the server.' This doesn't nessicarily mean a good PC, it could be a horrible evil bastard, but if it stirs up RP, thats the honey which DMs love.

Who the hell cares? It's approved when it's approved and it's denied when it's denied. We don't have to know everything that goes on behind the scenes.

Our Dungeon Master screens didn't yet appear on WikiLeaks, yeah...

The point I'm making is that there is no set in stone rules for requests, each request is taken on its individual merits and each DM opinion of a request is taken into account as-well. You could get 14 DM approvals and a "No" from DM Palanekh_PeeLallymak because that individual has identified an issue with your request.

hehe..PeeLally

Lally wrote:

hehe..PeeLally

I am so calling you that from now on.

Pee Lally, the Mac?

For a moment I thought Tutteri's all three personalities had become DMs.

A DM sent me here as if there was an answer for me in this mess of words. If only the answer was just explained to me instead of me having to search for it.

I don't like to bother DMs more than I have to, but I want to know what constitutes an official approval?

Is 'Ask in game' = Official Approval?

Approval is never actually official because even after it is has been approved it can be revoked based upon new evidence (say, we discover you are a dirty rotten cheater or something.)

Perhaps a better analogy is to imagine your requests are prayers and we are gods. If you continue asking the gods "why won't you do this for me?!?!?!" the gods may become irritated with your mortal whining and visit upon you and your house one of seven plagues. If you merely cast your prayers into the divine ether and patiently wait for providence to provide, it shows the proper gratitude to your fickle overlords in the sky.

To clarify slightly, being told to ask in game means that this normally does not require a forum request but rather something dms grant ingame. That is if the dm ingame has the time for it and is satisfied with the reason you provide/ have enough dcs for it.

Placeables, head changes and name changes to name few of the most common.

Yossarin wrote:

Approval is never actually official because even after it is has been approved it can be revoked based upon new evidence (say, we discover you are a dirty rotten cheater or something.)

Perhaps a better analogy is to imagine your requests are prayers and we are gods. If you continue asking the gods "why won't you do this for me?!?!?!" the gods may become irritated with your mortal whining and visit upon you and your house one of seven plagues. If you merely cast your prayers into the divine ether and patiently wait for providence to provide, it shows the proper gratitude to your fickle overlords in the sky.

Deity Slot: DM.

Fantastic! Now I wonder how many prayers it takes to get the ninth level conjuration spell: Cows from Hell... Maybe I'll ask them if they can be renamed to Holy Cows and add the cool glowing holy vfx to them because I am so devout... Bah! Screw it. Need more prayers anyways. *prays*

Thanks for the clairification. :mrgreen:

Yossarin, your new time avatar thing is weird and creepy and way too appropriate for your plotlines and craziness.

I always wonder how many Requests get PMed/forwarded to people that we don't really see and how they compare to the public ones. I know I've done that once or twice. Especially for specialty races.

If there's ever a question over if your request is approved or not, isntead of making a post in th topic, PM me. It keeps the topic cleaner and it doesn't bug me as much if it's a simpyl PM vs a (sometimes) whiny-connotated post in the request itself.

I'm ultimately trying to find a way to avoid being 'whiny', that's why I wanted clairification. I don't like being repremanded for asking questions when things are unclear.

There's a difference between asking after 3 or 4 days have passe,d and asking after every single DM posts. We get the latter quite a bit and it grates on you very quickly, like a kid in the car asing "Are we there yet?"

If you just PM me I can give you a consice answer much easier.

The Three DM Fallacy

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