I still disagree that anyone playing the bad guys needs a DM to make changes.

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The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

Well, considering its entirely upto DM's what happens to the Physical world of Amia, i don't disagree in the slightest. It is not a player decision whether some place gets blown up. You need DM permission for it. And the last time that happened, the Forest managed to magically regrow in a few months from a pile of ash and cinders. So, there are quite litterally no lasting effects on the physical world of Amia which are caused through Evil players.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

From what i recall there was extensive efforts to heal the forest by the Druids.

If the Bad Guys can break it, with effort, the Good Guys can fix it, with effort.

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Mostly Retired

lets be fair, one... time on amia is messed up months of real life time can be years IC.
DMs let you pick how much time has passed for you more or less, thats how kids can be born and grow up to be PCs on amia(they dont make you wait 18 years IRL)

two, you attacked something alive, it can repair itself in time alone without outside help like when a person gets a cut and heals, now if you cover it up it heals faster then if you did not try and speed it up and people tryed to help.

three, magically happening on a high magic server how is that odd(and it was not POOF burned down two days later its back) druids can use spells like Plant Growth, or Animate Plants
to name just two spell and had the forest back real quick if this was PnP.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I believe our ultimate goal should simply be to eliminate all good

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- "The fiend is less hideous in his own shape....then when he rages in the breast of man"

fireball and inferno if you want it gone again in PnP btw

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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard

with how much it rains in amia forest I dont think the spells would do jack other then burnmark a tree.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

then how did it burn down in the first place?
I never could quite figure that out >.>'

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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard

Everyone together now.

*Group response*
Ask IC

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Seems to me that us Evil Bastids get all wrapped up in our factions and assume it's Us v The World, when it really doesn't need to be that way. In fact, looking at the numerous times we've been smacked around, I would say there is certainly precedent FOR working together on at LEAST a limited basis. I'm not suggesting we all get together and form a Superhuman League of Extra-Special Villain Folk...well...maybe I am. There's NO reason we can't all plod along on our various courses to take over the world AND at least stay in enough communication to band together to fend off the Holier-Than-Thou's who keep trashing our plans. So, evil faction leaders of Amia, hear my plea: hold an occasional summit, get to know one another, adopt the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally' mentality, and let's whip some Goodie-2-Shoes @sses!

Just my 2 bent pieces of copper...

One time playing an evil character of mine, I managed to get two high level PCs killed and then banned from Cordor, all the while making my PC come out looking like a hero. I was level 3.

It's very possible to be successful as an evil character if you play your cards right, and realize that evil isn't just about hating everyone and wanting to destroy the world.

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Born to a [wealth level] family, you spent your early years doing [early activity] in [town type]. Your father was [father status], while your mother was [mother status]. You left your homeland at the age of [chosen age], seeking [reason for leaving].

I've noticed a lot that when a player claims a certain deity or wears the symbol of such a deity, they operate almost exclusively on what the deity's tenets are, in an almost extremist manner. The baddies even more rigidly so.

Now I can see a priest or Blackguard maybe going to extremes, but does one evil god care that much if a follower who is non-clergy associates with other evil gods' followers. For that matter does an evil god care if the clergy does the same, as long as the deity's goals are being worked towards?

I'm in no way saying that anyone's deity-related RP is crap. Not at all. Just something to consider when playing out your baddy's fervor vs. working together to achieve a mutual end.

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I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

One of the main reasons that evil factions don't band together to be evil, is because evil does not see itself as evil. They just disagree with the rest of the world on what "good" is. (Obviously you're all wrong, because I'm the good guy. Right? )

Evil is characterised by dedication to a cause that is incompatible with values typically seen as "good", or by a lack of moral values. In the latter case the characters could either deny the existence of such concepts as "good" and "evil" in the first place, in the former case the character would be fighting for a cause that they themselves see as "good". After all, if you consider all your enemies subhuman abominations to be purged, because whatever God says so, then it'd be "good" to do so.

The absolute definitions that Good and Evil have in the DnD settings are, to me, OOC information. Players know that their character is Evil, even though he has the best of intentions, because within the setting Good and Evil are defined forces. The character himself wouldn't consider himself as evil, after all, he has only the best intentions. In other words, the evil genius building his evil fortress of evil from where to carry out his evil plasn to spread evil across the world just for the sake of being evil is something that has no place outside of cartoons.

Good does not have this problem. Characters identified as "Good" in the setting tend to agree on what "Good" is, almost by definition.

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Shynt'iira, Ilharess d'lil Qu'ellar My'ana

Evil will never fully band together because even if you have a great plan, leaders of their own factions feel threatened by someone having a better plan, so they try to derail each other's plots...which just serves to stab themselves in the foot.

The UD is actually a prime example of what happens when you eat your own legs and have nothing to stand on. Cause an all powerful matron is absolutely nothing if she only has five troops at her disposal.

Well, I guess it's just a reflection of other things in FR too.

I mean you don't hear accounts of Archons(LG) constantly fighting Ghaeles(CG) in FR. But the Bloodwar, if nothing else, shows that pure LE and CE don't get along too well...

Still, what I'm seeing is "Our evil isn't worthwhile/doesn't work the way we want it to". To that, I still say just "try something new". The Good people of Amia have no reason to change their Power Rangers gameplan of Evil Shows Up -> Does Something Evil -> Everyone and their Grandma ride out and Attack it. At least not while Evil folk are still pulling the same stuff.

For the most part, Good plays a reactive role on Amia. We don't do anything until something's been done to someone. So Evil folk, what does that tell you? Change it up. Either be secretive, or seek to subvert and corrupt, or so on. You can't keep smacking your head into a brick wall and blame your pain on the mason who built it to keep you out.

I offer this bit of advice I've learned from playing Evil PC's on other servers: "A LG Paladin and a LE Blackguard will do the same type of things, for the same reasons, to ultimately different ends."

My point was that there's a difference between 'Evil' and 'Stupid'. To continue doing the same things and expect different results is 'Stupid'. Any organization on the isle classified as 'Evil' will know the fate of their predecessors: ask anyone wearing white, they'll be happy to tell you. In light of that, it's 'Stupid' to NOT band together to at LEAST bloody the nose of Aforementioned Good Guys. Agree to disagree...but put a hurt on Joe Paladin and Entourage FIRST, then go back to cutting each other's throats. That's all I'm saying: don't be 'Lawful Idiotic' or 'Chaotic Stupid'...be E-V-I-L.

The horde will return!

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---
"Every time you play with fire, the fire plays with you.
and when you take the sword, the sword takes you, too."
Malle Malone

I find it difficult being evil. As a drow, I'm often forced to go to the surface to find someone to level with. I've been in groups with elves, paladins, clerics, champs of torm, etc... If I were to act my true alignment, I'd never get any xp.

I noticed this on other servers as well.

The problem with allowing evil PC's is that evil is hard to play, because 1. it's counter to our nature and 2. it ruins other peoples fun.

We restrict pvp to the point that it's impossible for someone to be a sadistic murderer. Drow are not allowed to be drow. Orcs can't commit wanton slaughter and mayham. Petty theives can't commit petty crimes. Anytime we want to do something that runs in the characters nature we've gotta fill out forms in triplicate to make sure no ones feelings are going to get hurt.

Which is understandable to a degree. We're playing this game to have fun. And allowing constant wanton slaughter, thieving, pillaging, etc... Doesn't promote fun for the people that it is happening to.

So whats the solution? As far as I can tell, there is none. You could just stop allowing the play of evil alignments. But the uproar from that would be unbelievable. So, we're pretty much left with playing limp-wristed dastardly bandits.

I suppose ppl can play a real monster race prone to wanton slaughter.

"//You dont have to die/pvp. you can just emote giving up your limb/items and then go along your way. Not to different from emoting giving the gold to highway men you know?"

It does completely suck the fun and thrill of bumping into a highway man or towering ogrillion in the wilds though.

Feign death?

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My one main personal issue with evil/good rp is the unfairness of reaons to kill someone.

Good can kill evil because it is evil, but evil can't be evil, so in essence many seemingly evil people are then killed for no reason at all.

Evil should be the one killing with no reason at all, and once that is allowed, thenso many evil people won't ask the question of this thread.

Allow me to give some context to the "evil just has to be smarter" commentary. Taken at face value, it is disingenuous, but I believe the statement comes out of a desire to answer the complaints of evil people who lose/fail and complain.

The truth of the matter is, a good story or series of story has elements of subtle/manipulative evil and outright balls-to-the-walls kitten-killing evil. Some situations or challenges will require evil to employ subterfuge to achieve its goals. Other times, it requires brute force, and not necessarily always of a physical level (you can be brutish and wicked without ever throwing a punch), though even physical violence is critical to achieve goals.

And even aside from achieving goals, the deliberate (for the player, not for the character) MISUSE of evil tactics contributes to the drama - being a brute when you should be a politico, being savvy when you should just knock their teeth out.

No matter what, though, it always plays out that the brutal obvious evil gets targetted so much easier, and so they complain, and so the answer is, "If you don't want to be targetted and taken down several notches, be more subtle. Be more intelligent, be more subtle."

I've never seen it as a statement of how evil should or should not be in anyone's eyes. Just how it needs to be if you're complaining about never having your fair day because you're outnumbered by the good guys.

Just like good can "never" lose, nor can evil. Where has it gone? More minuscule and boredom-relief filling roleplay can be fulfilled if you're a good player, as you can go to the main RP hubs and not be PvP'd for whatever stupid reason someone can think of. More complex 'evil' schemes, religions, plots, plans, and stuff many evil factions used to spend hours planning all seem to have drifted away, because nothing ever seems to happen. I'm not talking about one side winning over the other; I'm just saying from a logistical standpoint that I've heard too many incredible event ideas that never get played out simply because there isn't enough time in the world for the DM's; and perhaps that's not their fault. Good on the other hand, doesn't need anything to happen for them to be 'doing the right thing.' At least that's how I see it. Stagnation, basically. There's only so many times you can say you're going to do something before it gets old.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Thats the very nature of an RP lite server though. The worst thing a loss gives here is a 5min time out.

If players had IC repercussions to pvp then... People would play differently

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The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

This isn't an RP lite server.

There are repercussions, if you roleplay them. The worst that can be mechanically applied to your character may be five minutes, but if you choose for them to be out of action longer than that for one reason or another, then you're choosing a roleplaying server where being beaten can mean something.

The threads with ideas on how to make defeat or death mean something in mechanical terms are all very well, but it means a lot more if players overwhelmingly choose not to go for the cheesy five-minute return, even if the game says they can be raised when the five minute timer has run out.

Im not trying to knock it at all, I very much enjoy playing here... But there is no other way around it: Amia is RP lite.

I would wager good money that over 50% of the chat that goes on in game is prefixed by "/p" or "////".


There are ic repercussions for IC actions but only ever if you choose to follow them. And even then most of the time following IC repercussions to the limit means you're left dead for 30min to 1h then your body is burnt/buried. I have no quams or issue with this, it fits the RP light style of gameplay which I personally find appealing. I can pop on, hack slash, RP moderately, and leave. And its all good. Some "hardcore" RP servers require alot more time to bring any fulfillment out of logging on. Just traveling places takes forever. Where as here I just click a wand and appear where I want to go. I find that appealing. Sure immersion is harder to achieve but still I find the light atmosphere fun.

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The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

I have avoided posting here up to now. But a few of the comments in the last page or so made me think back to those simple days of good vs evil. And when TV shows for kids gloried in the idea of those neverending battles. One impaticular came to mind...



Now someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the line was... 'Where ever evil exsists... Mumm-Ra lives!'
The idea of course being that the ideals of being evil are haboured in the thoughts and deeds of all. Mumm-Ra being a manifestation of this evil.

Always makes me think of certain evil type characters that way. You cant kill them off anymore than the good ones. Its a war eternal and one that never ends. Occasionally certain of those characters fall into blackness and maybe it would be worth considering that when a character gets 'beat' then they take a back seat on the scene for a while to represent them 'regaining' their powers or what have you.

But on both sides of the spectrum there should be some sense of... not sure what to call it... achievement perhaps. There is no sense putting so much work into beating the bad guy if they are up and around again in five minutes. The same goes for the good ones.

We would all have far more respect then for both good and evil architypes if we allowed one another some advancement in our individual plotlines instead of the same vicious cycles. That way everyone should get to have more fun.

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Siggy by Maryn

..Well, We could implement Permadeath-Light..


Remember this discussion?

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I am here! *waves*
HERE!!! *flails* I AM HERE! LOOK AT MEEEEE!

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I'd like caster classes to lose a portion of their spells on death yes. That would be nice. Akin to unequiping their CHA/INT/WIS gear and re-equiping it.

like i said dont do "DEATH" = the end, and if so it should be like 20-30 deaths or something, but each time you die you lose more levels once past 10 deaths, so eventually death would mean that a level thirty has to start all over again.

BUT !!!!!

if this kind of system was put inplace or something similar

you need to have better "subdued" systems at play, or a way of being able to actually set to "pvp" sub an that all damage will only take the character to 0 an not lower (no re-gen)

that way if someone is trying to capture them they can be precise about how the harm them were they cast spells at them etc etc so we dont all lose lives so quickly.



p.s i think purchasing extra lives with DC is also a good idea.

but if we enforce permadeath, i think we should have "pick pocket" back as normal and players should drop gold on death !

o.. o.. yeah an no more "warning" icily or setting hostile, actually have the server harm effects spread out to anyone who is no in the party at all time s thus pvp can take place anytime any-wear.

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If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC :http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/

Hahaha, kinda seems like you want 70% of the server changed.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

not really, i was just making a point that many of these things go IMO hand in hand, if you bring in perma ya kinda should make other things more of the same level of enforcement and power.

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If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC :http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/

And you think the whining about good vs evil is bad now..

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

^That.


And:

Money dropping would anger too many people to even go into. Permadeath with limited lives? Alot of mistakes can happen to a low level char. Especially one who doesn't have a powerbuild like the rest of us. >.> And most people would never -dare- to burn a precious DC on a new char just to have him continue. Item un-equipping is really just another caster nurf. Find something that equally nurfs all who die, and you might have an argument.

I like the level loss idea, however im sure getting to the point that lvl 30's drop to 1 wont go over to well with certain people. Again, also those who try so hard to level a 30 RP build then some powergamer casts implosion and ruins it all again in one foul swoop.... Not fun.

I love Gothic Horror, and I feel Amia sort of lacks that in areas it should be plentiful.

I want to scare characters, and moreso I want my character to -feel- scared when standing before something that can obviously tear the life from him. Knowing someone with a raise scroll can come along in a few minutes and bring him back sorta kills that.

Oh, here's another idea. Take raise scrolls from common merchants, and remove all potions/wands above level 3/4 from the game. I assure you chars will be more hesitant in their actions.

Thats my thinking anyway.

This is a hardcoded part of the NWN engine, even if full PvP there are simply a lot of effects the game needs to see you as different mechanical factions, orhostile to one another to put into effect.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I don't think the absence of evil charcters has anything to do with death penalties at all.

I think it stems from the beginning, the plot/plan/idea.

What it seems to me from what I've seen and heard is that many villain plots are either negated/ignored/denied, and usually at the point a DM becomes involved.

Mind this isn't a comlaint against the DMs so much as it is a warning to help them avert having topics like this.

There are two types of evil characters in Amia. The Outrageous and the Serious.

The Outrageous characters are the ones who seek impossible things. World domination is a prime example of what an Outrageous evil seeks, not to mention personal vengeance. Outrageous evils provide that daily beat up and end it style RP (like an episode of Batman). Outrageous characters rarely ask for DM assistance and sometimes can become problematic OOCwise in things usually concerning PvP.

Serious evils are ones who seek possible goals. Changing cities, building faction areas, and affecting places in a long term sort of manner. Serious evils provide depth in their villainy. They provide the "uh oh, the villain has won" "to be continued.." style of RP. In the long run most of them realize they will be defeated...but wish to go out with a rather large bang before they do. They constantly harass the DMs for any assistance they can scrape up. They get upset at DMs for never allowing enough evil to have it's day. They become problematic on an RP level, usually complaining that somehow good is allowed to win, or helped by the DMs.

I am focusing on the Serious evils, for they are the ones who go out of their way to plot and plan and go through the motions with little to no reward at all. If the DMs seriously believe that the RP in and of itself is the reward, you're deluding yourselves. And when these Serious evils finally achieve something without the need for a DM(which happens rarely because a Serious evil's goals requires DM assistance), sometimes it's the DMs themselves who negate it all and destroy an evil persons entire plot with little to no consideration at all to the player who worked to also make this place fun for others.

These Serious evils eventually grow tired, up and leave, then....we get threads like this.

Amia has become like Star Wars without The Empire Strikes Back, so in the end instead of the overall RP of the entire server amounting to ever having The Empire Strikes Back feel, what it all amounts to is a 300 minute episode of Batman, where everything is fixed after the next reset. I admit I exaggerate somewhat...but not alot.

Once again..this isn't to say the DMs don't care or aren't doing their job. I just don't believe they truly focus on something they really should do: Making it challenging for the good guys, by allowing already established bad guys have their day.

Mind you also DMs that this would go a long way in having to deal with arguements over PvP incidents, thus resulting in a publically made apology on behalf of an Outrageous evil. You'll be trading it in for an arguement over RP semantics...but at least you'll argue with someone wo wanted to make things fun for the server, rather than berating a player who actually desn't give a shit about it.

I am pretty sure in my time on a few other servers i had seen it done, im not sure how but if its taken seriously i could look into it i guess.

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If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC :http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/

Are you aware, bbks, that Cordor's northern agricultural district was decimated because of something a group of evil PCs did?

Are you aware that two major NPCs over the past year have been murdered at the hands of an evil PC, and one other with indirect aid from an evil PC?

Are you aware lots of people were treated unfairly by a particular NPC because an evil PC had that NPC by the balls?

Are you aware that certain evil PCs have learned how to manipulate a few of the things that are making Cordor itself an inhospitable location, to render it either more inhospitable, or inhospitable in favor of the evil party?

Are you aware that the Amia Forest burned to ashes because of the actions of evil PCs?

Don't sell us too short here. You probably don't know about these things because I try to be discreet and not advertise the actions of evil PCs OOC'ly at all, and if it ever happens IC'ly it comes out of the natural consequences of actions and RP.

Of course, the argument you could bring up, "These things only happened because you wanted them to happen, and just put it in the hands of the evil PCs and allowed it to go that way."

I can assure you, this is not true. The fact is when I design story hooks and challenges and the like, I think at the very least dually, and often plurally, and sometimes it just comes down to who his paying enough attention to find and grab the reins. And other times an evil PC says, "I plan to do this," and while I might say, "let me be your common sense for a second" to save those "outrageous" evil PCs from throwing themselves into an early grave, it still takes me by surprise and I'm inclined to say "yes" even if only to give all the bored good guys something to do.

This person...gets it.

This is exactly what leading an evil faction is like on Amia.

Yoss: As far as agricultural changes and internal politics that don't affect 90% of the PC's on the server....who gives a crap?

How long was the forest really burnt down, anyway? Without DM's telling me in threads like this, I'd have never known about it. That's how irrelevant it was.

I guess the players who had a part in it reminisce and think it was a cool event. But ultimately nothing has changed, since the forest is as it ever was now.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

You didn't read his post, and this much is clear, based on this reply.



What's wrong with believing roleplay is the reward on a roleplaying server?



Hardly irrelevant. And saying that is a major disrespect to the PCs that did it and were affected by it.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

What you don't get is what motivates people to take on an adversarial role. The tradeoff of being the bad guy, of being the shithead that everyone hates, is making a lasting impact that people feel. It's the potential of making an adversary that is so heinous that the influence he has is felt across a generation of RPers.

I am not saying every person who plays evil needs to be remembered in such a way, but they want to be part of something that is epic and memorable. Why else would they bother? Good is so much easier.

How can that ever happen if everything stagnates? So what if I burn down Amia Forest, when it regrows again in a month or two? So what if I take over Wharftown, when it kicks back to the good guys within a couple months? So what if I raze Khol to the ground, if...oh, wait, who am I kidding.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

You did not need to add that last sentence to your post. Your point is very much made without making another veiled jab at the DM team.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

History speaks for itself. And I don't blame the entire team for the stagnation.

Anyway you've devolved back to taking shots at me rather than deal with the subject at hand. So get back on topic.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

If it speaks for itself, then surely you didn't need to write it in your reply. Nor did you really address my reply to you. I am not taiking shots at you as your edit might suggest. I am replying to you to say that if you would honestly like the situation to change, then you can't keep doing and posting as you have been. Your point was perfectly made by mentioning the forest and wharftown. Making a slightly sarcastic mention about Kohlingen's perceived invulnerability, and slyly blaming the DMs for it wasn't needed at all.

I believe this is perfectly on topic, since the topic is about evil people and a perceived bias regarding the DM team, and so I feel that making jabs at the DM team who tries to resolve these things and make the world fun for everyone isn't a constructive way to approach the issue at hand.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It is worth bringing to the collective attention of the playerbase, and even the DM team, why Kohl has never fallen, or even been seriously damaged, despite all the evil factions that have come and gone on Amia.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Every one (or at least most) of those instances you mentioned was overturned when the massive ocean of good PCs tried to undo/amend/restore the damage that had been done, though. While I would personally love to see evil PCs commit some act which cannot be undone (there are existing hooks in my plot for this right now), when you burn down the forest or invoke Talos to tear up the farmlands or take over a settlements, there are then ten times as many people burning the midnight oil to help.

The problem that grates on me is the meta-problem I feel the wave of good PCs don't see - by struggling so hard to restore what was lost/damaged/threatened/destroyed/whatever, they are in effect contributing to the stagnant effect of restoring the status quo.

Yes, 762, I am pretty much agreeing with you here, but from my own perspective as a storyteller.

But from my perspective as a DM, I also come short when I ask myself, "Can I really get away with absolutely ignoring or denying the genuine effort these PCs are putting in to put their little piece of the world back together again the way that it was?"

In some respects, this means we have to work a little harder and risk a little more as storytellers. By risk, I mean piss people off.

My preferred approach is to actually try to reveal to the ocean of good players how oddly damaging is their desire to put things back the way they were in spite of the odds, as in the romantic tradition, because doing so returns things to the status quo.

I was bothered when I heard from a player that I have a reputation for being "a DM that doesn't allow crucial NPCs to be raised". As though it were a bad thing. Johnathin Leohnard was practically a fluke, and "Saint Weston" actually had to make a percentage die roll and nailed it against incredible odds. But I knew that I could use both success and failure to my advantage to create a story for the people following that drama.

This bothered me because it signified to me that intense desire to put people back the way they were, as though they were ornaments in a house that had merely fallen off the shelf. It means that the evildoer suffers the consequences of his act, but reaps none of the glory, because the impact of his action was rendered void. For dramatic purposes, when people die they should stay dead. And I have no reason to fear evildoers going on a spree to assassinate every NPC in the server because SINCE I have garnered the reputation as the NPC-killer DM apparently, the amount of requests I have to attempt an assassination on critical NPCs is practically nil, but when it does happen, it is often with good reason and solid intent, not the chaotic stupidity that concerns people.

Now I could as a DM, IC'ly FORCE the good guys to accept these losses and failures and the entropic effects that are essential to the balance of powers and a dynamic setting, but in spite of my apparent bitchiness at times I really do not want to FORCE anybody into anything and would rather coerce and convince and try to show people exactly how to think in metaterms about the server, its story, and their interactions with the in-game world and with their fellow characters and those characters' players. There is a complex machination at work here that gets destroyed the minute your desires move into the realm of wanting to win rather than wanting to contribute...and God (and Tormak) forgive me for saying this, but it also gets destroyed the minute you cling loftily to the notion that I MUST DO WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO IN THIS SITUATION WITH NO DEVIATION when clinging to it in effect forces a return to the status quo.

I could ask the Peacock to back me up here, but I don't think he reads this part of the forum - it is commonly accepted in the modern drama that what really pushes an engaging play forward is when characters act contrary to their natures, often compelled to do so by external forces. If you say that your good PC would do everything in his/her power to "right the wrong" that was done, I can understand that.

But you can also sometimes intuit, as I have at times, that some things are better left changed for the worse, and you can invent your own external circumstances for not leading some "bored epic" charge to restore the status quo. Some of you actually already to this, I've noticed - your "good PCs" find a reason not to get involved in something that you see ten thousand other PCs trying to "fix".

Now: I absolutely cannot under any circumstances tell you not to do what your character would normally do. If your character would fix the problem, then by all means, do that.

But what I want you to remember - and it pains me that I am possibly poisoning the waters here - is to consider that when you amass to "fix" a problem and put it back exactly the way it was, you are returning an otherwise dynamic setting back to the status quo. Alternatively, if we ever tell you, "No, that doesn't happen, X is lost irrevocably, Y is changed indefinitely, and it seems nothing you can do can change that", do not hate on us for trying to keep something that at least resembles dynamism over a brief hiccup and then a return to functional passivity.

Remember that a good drama has characters sometimes be constrained to go against their natures, even if you have to invent those constraints yourself.

I am not trying to advocate some massive shift in "how we do things here", because I know I cannot do that alone. I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I am not trying to say "good guys, you have to give evil guys a fucking break!" (although in a way I kind of am). I am not saying "you are doing it wrong" to anybody.

I am giving you food for thought, trying to show you things from what I might as well haughtily call a superior perspective, so that you have what I hope is a slightly new understanding of the impacts on the server, your role in impacting it, and the roles good PCs and evil PCs play both in the world and in the metaworld of the "story".

Please don't roast me alive. Especially because I don't have a fix for this beyond, "We all have a rough sea to navigate, DMs included."

Yes, and it is because no one's tried, because they all believe it to be invincible without trying. I mean seriously tried. Not "I want to destroy Kohl". I mean very seriously, researched the city, looked it over, taken the critical steps at overcoming the solid obstacles that are present in the city, and moving forward with a base of supporters and a plan of action that won't crumble when it hits the city. There was at one point a rather large coalition set to do something, but they fell apart due to planning issues on their end and a crucial lack of communication with the DM team who would make their plans and dreams possible. I'm not sure why you say it is worth bringing to collective attention WHY it has never fallen, but you don't say why. Why is it then? Is it that the DM team is biased to good guys and that we hate evil PCs and don't want you to do anything cool? Why wouldn't we just stop you from playing evil PCs then? It would be a much more succinct solution to the problem and really cut out all the nasty insults that are slung at us on a daily basis. If you are going to leverage a threat sch as "It is worth bringing to the collective attention of the playerbase, and even the DM team, why Kohl has never fallen, or even been seriously damaged, despite all the evil factions that have come and gone on Amia.", then you need to post with proof, screenies, situations, comprehensive knowledge and concrete support for your claim, because as it sits, it is only an inflammatory line in a topic dedicated to fixing a problem that you are currently helping propagate by making attacks at the DMs in this topic as you are, instead of letting the players and DMs work out anything, if, indeed, it needs to be worked out, in an amicable manner.

I can tell you right now that if an evil faction managed to pull it off they could do it. I will not divulge how, because that effort is the crux of anything that any player does in the module, good or bad, lawful or chaotic, individual or organized. They could do it to anywhere really. the only exception is if it gets nixed from the designers and the devs. If Disco or Mach say "Sorry, no can do" then we as DMs are tied. There's nothing we can do there. That's not bias, that's mechanical and scriptical restrictions and nothing that anyone can be blamed for, since this isn't PnP where the world only exists in the imagination, and with a descriptivie paragraph the world transforms.

Kohlingen has been hurt and damaged in the past by PCs cunning enough and wily enough to do things do it. I do not see why you use this as some sort of leverage as a conspiracy against the DM team, though. After all, Cordor has never fallen or been seriously damaged by player characters as well, on an architectural level. Cordor itself, rather. The outside was, but, in your words, since it didn't affect 90% of Cordor, that makes it "irrelevant", I believe. Bendir Dale is the same way, as is Winya, Fortress wiltun, and really, every city in the entire module except for Wharftown, who I believe you mention due to having been one of the brainchilds behind the operation. Why do you only single out Kohlingen for your attack against the DMs? Is it because of Imperator? Imperator has his restrictions like anyone else. Is he powerful? Of course he is. Is he defeatable? Absolutely, though I wouldn't recommend walking up to him and drawing a sword, of course, just like I wouldn't recommend drawing a sword and walking up to Chairman Joseph Maximillian, if you wanted to kill him, nor would I recommend drawing a sword and walking up to Lord Arsant Wiltun if you wanted to kill him either. Each "goal" in the module has its own series of obstacles and things that need to be overcome before you can assail the mountain and claim the flag at the top. For some goals, these mountains are bigger and the challenges more rocky and craggier than others. If you endeavour to make a black market in Uhm, you'll have an easier time of doing so than if you want to lay siege to Kohlingen and render it a bloody, burning blaze, fires burning ruby red in the sunset.

If you do instead direct your wrath outward to the entire module for being "stagnant", then I suppose my criticism is that evil factions tend to paralyze themselves. They want to do X thing but their first response is "the DMs will never let us do that." But they don't know without trying. Perhaps it will be an explosive failure or a complete success. Perhaps, in some rare circmstance, they may be denied due to Dev reasons above, which are reasons outside anyone's control including the DMs, since we cannot force the Devs to let us do things, no matter what.

Perhaps the world is stagnant, to a degree. But I do not believe this is due to our fault, at least, not to the degree to which you would claim and lay against us at our feet. We play the environment in a manner that is compliant with the world and its lore and its current setting. If the bad guys cannot muster and defeat the good guys, that is an onus that is on them, in my humble opinion, and not an onus that is on the DMs. If a bunch of Paladins failed to take castle Wiltun for whatever reason, the blame should not fall to the DMs, again, in my humble, but rather on the actions of the Paladins. For reasons they may not entirely understand OOC (since everything is not always apparent and there are hidden motivations and things happening in the world that PLAYERS may not always be aware of), it did not work. The same applies to a group of blackguards who attempt to take Kohlingen.

Instead of bemoaning the 'fact' that Kohlnigen is invincible, these frustrations should be channeled constructively into an IC form, where you can prove everyone wrong. If you do destory it, will it be destroyed forever? I do not know. If someone can swing a wrecking ball, people can place mortar and brick, as well. It is not fair to either side to be able to demand the ability to inflict permanent damage, if yu are not willing to take permanent damage yourself. After all, the Banites have lost Temples, but been allowed to rebuild them as well. If the Forest burns, then, should it not be allowed to regrow under the tender care of Elves and Druids? The Horsemen were found in their base, but were allowed to establish a base of operations in Frozenfar and have gone a s far to get a settlement under their thumb. Should not, then, Wharftown, be allowed to give the good guys a chance to rectify the situation their village was in, and bring a down and out faith back to prominence? IN the end, what IS permanent, anyways? Nothing is really permanent, if one puts forth the effort, the time, the elbow grease, and the real, honest to goodness drive to affect a change.... and succeed. And in some cases, a failure will still bring about change as much as success did.

I think the continued comparisons to Star Wars and the Empire Strikes back are disingenious. You cannot possibly compare a completely living and ongoing server history to a slotted, beginning and end story and movie like the Star Wars Trilogy. And even if you do, you must understand that evil does have its heyday, which is what the Empire Strikes Back is about. The Banites took Wharftown. they owned the Skull Crags. The Horsemen laid waste to the area. Renowned NPCs were murdered. If you would like to compare the server to Star Wars or some other movie or story, it is best done over the arc of stories and events. For example, the Banite occupation of the skill crags. You have the Banites finishing their castle and moving in, which is equatable to the Detah Star finishing and A New Hope, with minor resistance being crushed. Then you have the Empire Strikes Back, with the Banite expansion, rougher rebel resistance utlimately destroyed, and Guldorand coming under Bane's thumb with dominance threatening to expand outwards into the center of the island and even through the trade portal to Khem. And then you have the Return of the Jedi, with the final organizing from "the good guy" PCs that took many RL months, planning on their part, espionage (equatable to destroying the shield generator on Endor), and finally the battle of the SecondDeath Star, which would be the massive siege at the end that brought the castle crumbling to the ground. That is how you can compare Amia to a mvoie. comparing the full years and years history to it is unable to be done.

I think I addressed everything I could hope to address in those replies.

~

I forgive you, Yossarin, and do agree with you on one point: That a return to status quo need not always been a retrun to status quo.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham