This is another sign that you're starting to lose your grip, Wyjyn. Your kneejerk anti-authoritarianism, while respectable on some level to me, is becoming more of your goal than actually making sensible claims. You're certainly not accusing me of any bias because I do not even have a PC.

But if you had any inkling of what those DMs who do continue to choose to play a PC go through, you'd realize that's not right. They're prone to second-guessing every single action they take, both PCside and DMside, to ensure that there's no existing bias, and that one action will not impact the other. When someone wants to pick a fight it is easy to point at phantoms and shadows and suggest that what you say is happening is happening, but it isn't.

Naturally, I sidestepped all of this by focusing exclusively on DM'ing and foregoing a PC while I have the title of DM. I have no investment beyond struggling to make a vibrant world and telling a halfway decent story.

You have a slightly more valid claim if you accuse DMs of a bias between what the majority playerbase wants and what the minority playerbase they are most accustomed to dealing with wants, and potentially getting those confused. It happens, but never maliciously, and never to any great detriment. But to say that they selfishly and willingly use DM authority to force favorable conditions for their PCs is inconsistent with the consternation and frustration I see them go through just to be able to play, a privilege the rest of you have, and not invoke these kinds of claims. In some ways, it breaks my heart because I want them to just do what I did and avoid the problem altogether and focus on DM'ing only, but they'll burn out very fast, and it is not a sacrifice they should be forced to make, but be willing to make, and a sacrifice that is not even necessary. I would say that to make the claim is insulting, but I'm not insulted by it. I could be insulted at the counterclaim that I must therefore be so blindly naive that I'm not seeing the bias you're talking about from my own colleagues, but I'm not insulted by that, either. I'm just left wondering why such a bold claim would be made unless you're wanting to pick a fight.

If you're thinking that the crucible of South Cordor is an example of DM bias beginning to change the way it works in favor of a PC, that's also incorrect. I'm the only one aside from Disco who knows exactly what I'm doing, and some have an idea of how, but in truth even I don't know exactly what I'm doing because I might change it depending upon what I see happening. I call it a crucible for a reason. But I have no PC who stands to benefit one way or another in any change made, and this isn't an idea spawning out of the mouths of any of the other DMs, into my head, and out again. Most of them know nothing about it, and I know that now that I'm showing a little more of my hand they're going to wonder what the hell I'm talking about, and the time will come when I'll have to spell it out, but they're pretty much in the dark about what's been on my mind for a long time and about "interferences" in the RP dynamic in that area.

I'm not trying to bash you, Wyjyn, but I am at least, I hope, giving you the argumentative response you want to see, even if it is with an illogical style and a hidden rhetoric. But I'm not interested in carrying the argument any further, but instead just defending my colleagues from the accusation of a sin I don't believe they're guilty of, because in the grand scheme of things I lack the time and patience and emotional fortitude for long exchanges in defense of myself or anything I do. Which only results in making me seem like a raging egomaniac to some when that is my way of saying I simply don't want to engage in an argument when there's nothing to gain from it. I'm a terrible debater and I lack the rational skills you and Ironangel have to organize and deliver, and I always walk a minefield with debates potentially getting personal because my greatest sin is pride and if that pride is threatened bad things happen.

And now that I'm at the end of that, all I have to say to myself is WTF was I thinking to spend time writing all of this out?

defending other dm's integrity and doing so pretty damn well lol.

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

Amia desperately needs readily accessible slums and warzones that everyone might have some reason to visit but that'd be dangerous to anyone doing so lightly. We need places for bandits and gangs to run wild and run things. There's no reason it should be South Cordor specifically, if the story goes another way. I really liked the original idea Leggomi had for the area ages ago when the story arch was started, but I'd probably really like what Yoss is doing now if I was involved, too. But in the grand scale, Amia is so terribly civilized, safe and nice that there's very little room for danger and darkness. I'd much rather see it turned into a setting where monsters roam the roads again (a really lame change to make roads safe, IMO), where the city militia are pressed to keep the city centres safe from the bandits, rebels and monsters, and where leaving Cordor gates to travel to Bendir Dale could mean death or mugging.

Back to Cordor South: No PvP is rarely good. I understand it in East Cordor, but the problems of Hellballing etc. you describe are exaggerated. Yes, I do remember a certain few short people causing havoc in Cordor back in the day. Today, though, I have a hard time believing anyone who made it to epic levels would do something so stupid and if they did, that they would do it again after a few months' ban. There's no reason a Full PvP/Party PvP Cordor south/west would be any more "hell" than any other low population PvP area.

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Agreed.

Also, I very much loved the atmosphere of this new island Gabe was working on. More stuff like that!

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Also agreed.

About time some new bandits moved into place pc/npc or some other crew to make things more dangerous and interesting , problem is the player base is so CRUSH anything evil so it dont last long lol, tbh tho there are enough towns and enough reasons for evil pc and NPC to want to take amia, i mean gosh the net worth of some of the players on this server >.< even if it was only being "rp" some organized bandits make a killing

p.s i created a toon to be a thug,bandit,thief etc etc and already hooked up with plenty of others, there just needs to be a "leadership" there to guide direction, even if its layers of leadership and we got no idea who we working for a dm npc in the right place could thro gold and items down a waterfall of ruff types leading to all manner of changes but then again a PC can kinda do the same, an i belive are trying.

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If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC :http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/

Sounds like a king-of-the-hill area, no thanks. Just do what the Banites did and go to some place and claim it IC like the Skull crags, with no NPC guards around and go nuts. Amia has so much module space I see no reason to add any 'war zones' for PvP jockeys or criminal 'RP'. The problem is with all the portals and magic shitz no adventurer needs to go anywhere by foot (once you got the portal the first time). I'd like to see more dangerous cart ambushes but players bitched enough about the Khem caravans already when their comfort was threatened. Script the caravans to be more risky at night?

I remember before the spawn locations were overhauled some time ago I created an elf and by accident made Winya his starting position. Before the edit, I had a hard time to go to Cordor as level 2, without money and without other characters present. Most routes posed a high risk for my character. Today you can walk between many settlements and places without any risk of getting hurt.

Too much comfort.

Thats what we are saying, lets make it more dangerous, and screw going out into the middle of no-place likt eh banties did what the heck dose my rouge want with a cliff-face fortress >.< he wants gold and jewls and prestige, so he wants the docks for himself lol or to make it "appear" like my "crew" owns said "area" lol

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If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC :http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/

All I have left to say on this is that Amia is NOT a Hardcore RP server. Infact, Amia not being a Hardcore RP server is something it has prided itself on for ages. It is an RP server, but it's more casual and fun then Arelith or other full on servers. I don't want to see that change because a few players are getting bored of the casual and want to delve deeper into their hobby.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

*Thumbs up to selvec!*

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NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

I do not see the relevance of what you are saying.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

One problem with drow rp is that even when there is lots of it and its going well, it doesn't interact that much with the rest of the server. I'm very open to ideas on how to solve that. When I've tried to do it with my matron, she shoots herself in the foot, because she is so arrogant no-one can work with her. When I send males to liaise with surface baddies, they come back Vhaerunian!

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#1 - You should't have built Edonil.
#2 - You should've Stayed in L-obsul.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Well, the issue rather predates drow on server B. I also didn't see a huge amount of visitors in either place. Until Edonil began being built, the population of L'Obsul was pretty much zero. Better to have a couple of dozen drow in Edonil wondering how to interact than zero drow in L'Obsul interacting just fine, surely?

I've placed adverts to invite other races into Edonil, there is really nothing at all stopping them coming. But I think to be honest the lack of interest runs both ways: surface evil has as little interest in the drow as they do in it.

As I said, I am open to constructive ideas on increasing interaction. "Go back in time and play somewhere no-one wants to be," isn't one, I'm afraid.

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Errr...

First, There was only L'obsul with Limited Pc's interacting
Now there's 2 Places with Limited PC's interacting.

All in all, There's even LESS on both sides.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Maybe this is a timezone perception issue? Anyway, lets not derail the thread - I think I posted on the wrong one anyhoo!

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I'm not sure what "hardcore" actually means. I hardly think it's a thing to be proud of, in any case. Amia is not a pedantic, petty and narrowminded server that caters only to a specific few tastes, I'll give you that. Nobody wants to change that. But I think some focus is in order. Tangible IC consequences up to and including permadeath are hardly "hardcore." They're necessary tools to facilitate meaningful conflict and intense story.

We can't please everyone. I honestly don't understand why we should choose to please timid players only interested in social RP and clinging onto their characters. The NWN playerbase has matured over the last seven years or so. I don't see why Amia shouldn't, too. I daresay the great players we've lost over the years because we're too much of a bureucratic sandbox outweigh the contribution of those few complainers we'd lose if we'd introduce some "real" risk and tension. Of course, it boils down to taste and a judgement call on who's more valuable to the server. But you already make that call every day, you just don't want to admit it. You choose in favor of the latter.

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People really, really need to stop and read this. I feel like I've been 100% honest with the player base and have done my best to keep them happy and treated fairly. Yoss has thrown himself to the wolves a few times on this forum and for once I'd like less storming of the Bastille. We're full of torch burns here.

We're not paid leaders, we're not this ...nasty group of people in the shadows rubbing our hands together happily over the bad shit that happens to your characters.

I usually don't chime in because I know our intentions on this stuff, but my friends are being character assassinated en masse and I'm tired of it.

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

Sorry man, but I'm going to have to call call bullshit on that. Have you ever played in either place?

I played at both times.
Before Edonil got built, I'd be lucky to find anyone on at all. Finding a party to hunt with? Heh, now there's a funny thought.
I'm not just referring to Drow either, there wasn't really anyone around. The best RP was to be found at the local kitchen when Quar'agh was there, and even that was usually no more than 2-3 people at the best of times.

Now, there are Drow on pretty much whenever I play, because the RP is taking shape again. During most of euro primetime we have anything between 6 and 16 Drow PCs online, in several different factions. It's still far from perfect, but it's a lot better than before. The political scheming is getting some life back into it, the heart of any healthy Drow community, and I'm confident that we'll at least be getting somewhere in the forseeable future.

Going back to before Edonil was built is a good way to flush all the life we've managed to get back into the UD over the past year right back down the drain. On a related note, I wouldn't exactly call Edonil built either, since there are exactly two finished public structures.

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Shynt'iira, Ilharess d'lil Qu'ellar My'ana

Please no drow discussion. Pretty please with cream and cherry on top.

Well said, in all honestly something as simple as a enforced level loss leading to permadeath "old soul" could change the entire server, making death "scary" th hrs taken to level up stack up as your character is murdered. a 2-4 day ban on the character that has been murdered and "enforced" death amnesia (aka they dont remember a set period of time before the character death. Or the weave changes the gods forsake us and now true resurrection no longer exists an thus if you are dead without fails safe that's it) these are of course just ideas and how i think stuff could change and make the risk real.

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If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC :http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/

My question is, why the obsession with Cordor being the X for criminal RP? PCs put the effort into making it a difficult environment to commit crimes there, why should there be a discussion about an OoC reason to "turn it back" so crime can flourish down there again? Perhaps it's time to move on to greener pastures.

And yes, I know I'm going to get flak for it, but it's an honest question.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

It's a question I'd also like an answer to honestly.

Yeah, Cordor's the big city, but at the same time, there's way too much heat for criminal activity, between Anti-Adventurer sentiment and other factors.

The highlighted statment is just arrogant to make. I've made a statement of one of the things that my guy does. Try reading people's IC treads before you decide what is "inconsistent" and even then you've little right or cause to say what is IC for PC that is not played by you.

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Guys I play:
Finng Meras
Joshua Steel
Daniel Makie
Celub Elubmiire
Tristan
Len'ionel

Cordor is the hub of the server. The hub should offer the conflicts and opportunities of the server in a minituarized version. All in all, I think Amia is a bit too thinly spread. If you knew some far-off area to be a dangerous den of thieves, why would you go there? If, on the other hand, the only place to escape the abuse of the city guard and yet enjoy city life was right around the corner, if the regular adventurer had to go there to meet people, get information or illegal wares, then the place would be lively.

It may be true that such a turn of events would be awkward IC. I don't know the details of Cordor South, and I said it doesn't have to be Cordor South. However, there's something wrong with the setting design if it's possible to come to a situation where the environment has been made safe and prosperous for all. An overwhelming sense of helplessness, being outnumbered on all sides and not being the top dogs of the block would do good to any adventurer.

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Cordor's not about catering to adventurers though! So sayeth Plot.

Right now. Anyways.

(I love thta smiley right now.)

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

No kidding Tormie. Getting a guard to give you the time of day if they think you're an adventurer is impossible. Having a dragon step on you in the Nomad on the other hand they are nice enough

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Guys I play:
Finng Meras
Joshua Steel
Daniel Makie
Celub Elubmiire
Tristan
Len'ionel

Why not use the Cordor Underground and the Underpassages?

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Haven't read shit else yet. I agree with /this/ point, if nothing else.

It's also a point I raised ICly with Ianthe.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Make them connect to stores, inns, even some off-the-way outdoor areas in a Party PvP Cordor, add more stuff down there and give people reason to go there. Make a real underground world. Then maybe it's doable. But there's still the issue of spreading the playerbase thin. It would be best to crudely split accessible and already populated areas into turfs with different rules.

I'm just brainstorming, though. I know there are a lot of issues to be worked out, but that shouldn't keep us from trying.

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True. But it's the players' job to be trying, and then letting the DMs know of their efforts. So get in there, players, and change your world! So far Stormak thinks you're losing and digging in all the wrong places... but try new ones!

This, for me, is a simple answer. Criminal RP is not just about money and power, it's about 'sticking it too the man' and getting away with it. You can't do that nearly as well in a little hicksville town. Insofar as the Underpassages and so forth go they are used... perhaps not enough but that can change.

Scimitar; you make a good point and it was perhaps a bit hypocritical of me to deride someones RP in such an offhand manner.

Lally; You're right. I know I certainly value your input as both a player and a DM. More then that I value your tolerence of my constant badgering. As to DM bias, well I dunno, they say power corrupts but that assumes a lack of character so... that and everyone has their bad days.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

The more I read these topics about RP on Amia, and comments about fad factions, and what people want I keep seeing that it's linked to a problem of the playerbase being spread to thin to utilize all of Amia and get PCs to react with each other realistically, and be able to adapt to an environment. People avoid smaller towns because no one goes there until the Alt-disease kicks in, and some players make short-lived PCs to exist there for a time.

RP does not flourish in other places because of this, I think. It doesn't establish itself elsewhere, because there are just too many places to go and not enough players at any one given time to establish (meaning long-lasting persistent RP) anywhere else but server hubs; IE: Cordor, Amia Forest, and occasionally Bendir Dale.

I keep hoping that one day the criminals who are not allowed in Cordor, or players who are very Anti-Cordor will go and make PCs to occupy another pre-existing area and bring a server hub there, but I suppose there is no effort in doing so.

If the problem is that there is no interaction anywhere else with PCs, then perhaps some areas should be cut that are not used, to make interaction and untimely/unwitting/unplanned interaction more frequent so there isn't need for a designated "crime" area of the server to be placed in a server hub. It could permeate everything, instead of further fragmenting the playerbase into RP sections where they dare not leave if they wish to participate in a certain kind of RP. I believe that stifles potential more than anything else, and far, far more than NPC guards.

No criminal will leave for green pastures to try and establish elsewhere because there is no RP there for them, so they stubbornly cling to somewhere it existed before and inhibit any kind of IC growth or influence in that area. I find that unfortunate. NPC guards may have had a hand in discouraging crime RP, but I believe that it's the inability of a community to adapt to a changing criminal scene and environment that stymies criminal possibility. It doesn't matter if ICly that Cordor is a bad place to commit crimes-- people get executed, exiled, jailed, fined, have their entire criminal stock taken and then the criminals just come back in spite of having a bad wrap. I do not understand what needs to be done for the criminal community to go, "Hell no. Cordor isn't a place for a criminal community to thrive." I would crave Cordor one day having a connotation to it like Wiltun or Kohlingen have, but I do not believe that will ever happen due to a sense of entitlement of Cordor being the place for criminal affairs.

What I see here is an OoC request for the floodgates to open for some reason, and make criminal RP easier for you, whether it's relevant to what anti-crime people have established IC already or not. The argument for PC guards to do more guard things.... well, isn't a hardcore attempt at preventing crime one of the more guardly things to do? I sure think so. But so long as this stubborn clinging to an area of the server where criminals felt entitled and obligated to do their criminal RP, in spite of IC effort to uproot them (which I've participated in since I had a PC in the Guard faction) then... well, why should I bother? The tables are just being turned again.

Edit: For those of you who don't know, I've been in the Guard faction since mid-December in 2008. I'm coming up on my two year anniversary~

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Well, what did John Dillenger do after he got out of prison? He went back to robbing banks... and they had to create the FBI to catch him. That's something to aspire to right there.

As to "moving on to greener pastures"... I believe I answered that; "stick it too the man". So what if you can be exiled, executed and so on... "they won't catch me". NPC guards do play a huge role in stifling 'crime' RP, that cannot be denied. To say that 'criminal RPers' should leave the place it makes the most sense for them to attempt to exist is a bit... well a bit cruel. Cordor is the proverbial 'Big Smoke'; if you can make it here you can make it anywhere and so on. Saying 'leave because we've done things to stop you in the past' is forceing RP on people; RP that if you follow it too a logical conclusion leads to no evil anywhere.

The OOC request thing is a little harsh; this is a discussion on possibilities for the server, there are no demands here.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

After re-reading my post, I feel a response explaining my feelings about NPC guards needs to be reiterated and deserves it's own post. I do not believe that NPC guards are needed if a standard of quality is upheld that will make it fair and enjoyable for both parties involved in criminal-esque RP, which I remain unconvinced about thus far. My challenge stands for it to be proven to me that a quality and immersiveness to it exists, but I'm a tough customer because of the time I spend having people executing their "get aways" by running north through the gate that guards open in spite of my Guard PC going "Hold the gates, damnit! Criminal!" It's likely I'll remain unconvinced until little things like that cease to be an issue. I am also strongly against PvP in Cordor, because that is a whole other can of worms about what is appropriate and what is justification/appropriate outs/whatever that I do not even want to touch or have to deal with when it comes to Law in Cordor ever again.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

It's me cutting to the chase in a way, I suppose. The discussion is backed by a want for something to change, and it's somewhat of a request. If that offends you, I apologize. Without making it too personal, I'll just say I'm unconvinced (hence the challenge) if criminal RP can hold a standard to make it enjoyable. It's quite a feat, and the last thing I want is Nevaeh's job to become my job as a player. Your version of criminal RP is ideal, and would require a change in that community, and I think it deserves a chance to see it happen, but I'm wary because if it doesn't work out as intended, well. Who faces the brunt of the RP we already do not enjoy?

But ah, you're right. This is a discussion and I'm being too negative for it is be conducive to a good discussion.

Edit: I also realize that I may have to give up some of my grip on the subject for your version of criminal RP to have it's chance to see if it works; however, I'm not for making it easy at all.

Edit 2: I feel like I'm being vague in my post. What I feel needs to change is, and some of it is reiterated from earlier posts, but it's as follows:
*Criminals need to respect whatever consequences they're given. No logging, no watching TV, etc.
*Criminals need to stop logging off directly after "Getting away with it" to prevent after-the-fact consequences. Justice waits and is patient, yes, but still. (A lot of the time, I get criminal PCs who come after both not playing for a month and getting away with something, and then are shocked at they're still wanted as criminals. Cue unfair argument.)
*Criminals need to establish better escape plans that don't involve running past guard posts and using guard gates.
*Further, if criminals know they "got away with it" don't come waltzing back in to the area you "got away from" if you were seen escaping because of your lack of creative exit. Where is the immersion in that?
*Be willing to adapt, please, to something that does not involve you escaping/getting away with it. All the time I get these ridiculous and unfeasible scenarios of escape attempts.

Those are my biggest issues with the current system of criminal RP and make me, personally, not enjoy it. I feel like an evil babysitter OoCly, and I feel that I'm perceived that way for wanting quality, regardless of circumstance, sometimes.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I would say point well made there.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Hardcore RP: A server in which the penalties of actions are harsh enough that it's like RPing a life instead of playing a game. Be it in leveling, how RP is enforced, or the penalties for actions being taken. Examples: Arelith, Ravenloft: POTM, AFLA. Servers where the in game mechanics and rules require a lot of thought and planning. These servers generally back up their play style with rules such as "Always stay IC, failure to do so will mean insta-ban".

Don't get me wrong here, I love Hardcore RP servers. I have happily rped on several servers other then Amia in my years on NWN that could easily be considered "Hardcore RP". However, I always come back to Amia as it's more of a casual experience where I don't have to be to mindful of every single action I do or say. Which is great, because I have enough going on in my life without having to be that focused on a bloody game as well. I don't want to play a server where I can't go AFK for 5 minutes to go to the toilet, or log off in the middle of something because I have to do something out of the game. Yes it may annoy your RP and immersion, but this is still a video game, and I was under the impression for the last five years or more that Amia was happy to make allowances for that. Some of the more extreme talk in this thread makes me wounder if these people would have been happier with a duplicate of Arelith.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

That's where the balancing act starts: how far is too far? How far is not far enough? We can't discuss the point if people assume that another is making an argument for the extreme opinion right away.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

I can't really answer that question without giving specific examples, and I don't want to target anyone. Wouldn't be fair.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I like you.

I'm going to put in a note about Burningoutbright's pertinent role in this discussion, for those of you who are not aware:

She plays Neveah Tarvencia, who has been recently made the faction leader of the Adventuring Division of the Guard, and is therefore THE go-to person for legal matters in South Cordor. This puts a ton of weight on her shoulders and on her character's shoulders, and so it seems prudent for me to add here that criminal RP had best be quality RP, with a willingness to suffer consequences, a willingness to provide cooldown time, a willingness to be understanding that you pretty much have one player here and a single faction trying (I anticipate in futility) to handle every instance of criminal activity, or you're going to burn these players out so fast no one will have a good time.

I've seen both good and bad criminal RP, and her ultimate point is that we need less bad criminal RP that is akin to trolling or griefing.

point.

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No. You seem to suggest that the people here want an extremely hardcore server. All I have seen is people suggesting there be certain areas where there is more danger and risk. Certain areas that are more 'hardcore'. That or to make things a little more realistic and 'hardcore' in general. Not 'Let's duplicate Arelith!'. I don't think many here would favor their slow leveling, or their zero tolerance to OOC, or even their eat/drink/fatigue system. I think people want to be in a darker shade of gray, not black.

Edit: Nobody, in what I have read, wants to get rid of that casual nature of Amia wholesale. Who doesn't like being able to take bathroom breaks and not stress about every action your character makes. However, I think many.. Or at least myself... want to see more real, entertaining, fleshed out, and engaging stories play out in Amia. I like to think we're all a bunch of players who do enjoy casual play but also love in depth RP and every now and then when we key out the RP of our character it fits with the RP of several other players just so like a bunch of jigsaws and combines to create a brilliant story. Like atoms mixing to form molecules. But in our laboratory environment with the variables held to get a specific result (less whining, less complaining, less cans of worms for the DMs to suffer through) we limit the natural process and these 'molecules' can't be formed as readily. I "get" why its necessary to limit things and I understand it produces benign things like less stress all around, but I think it does so at a high cost of improved storytelling and I can't help but think we can adjust a little bit to get the best of both worlds.

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Ah, two very good explanations above about RP.

BoB's post is equally as good about the crime, I respect her as a player for all the responsibility she takes on IC, and don't belittle her at all for wanting to play some other characters to get out of the rut of being 'good cop'.

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I disagree, Selvec. "Hardcore RP" is a loaded description that doesn't actually say anything. You just listed a bunch of features that are unrelated to eachother, some of them vital to good story and others the product of a petty and pedantic mind. It's a stamp similar to "RP Lite" that speaks more about your attitude than the server itself.

You should be able to go AFK or talk OOC without risking a ban. These have nothing to do with the quality of RP. Levelling is somewhat unrelated, too: levelling that's somehow connected to IC achievements is arguably more fun, but we can choose the practical and easy way on a server as large as ours. As for choosing and role-playing classes, I am one of the most liberal people out there and have always fought for free player judgement in this matter.

But then there's the stuff relevant to the story. Things like never suffering consequences from PC-PC conflict, the complete lack of PvP penalties, the immunity of all your possessions, the guaranteed OOC chance to get out of any hostile situation, the inability of other PCs to keep your PC prisoner, the constant emphasis on consideration for your playmates' OOC feelings (in which I strongly disagree with Estara), and so on. You equate "fun" to "whatever I feel like at the moment." That's counter-productive. Of course there would be times when you're frustrated you just lost half your gold to a highwayman, that your PC's criminal schemes failed and you have to rot in jail for two RL weeks, or that your PC made too many enemies and ended up killed and hidden in the depths of the Underdark, where rescue is uncertain. Nobody's saying it all has to be fun. But I guarantee you, in retrospect most of these experiences would seem rewarding and the overall atmosphere would improve. It's a mistake to think that the server is the most fun when everyone can choose the consequences they face based on how they feel today, avoiding all negative experiences. That may result in a relatively painless gaming experience, but it's also extremely shallow, empty and meaningless. Being forced to lose every now and then is for your own good. Of that I am absolutely convinced.

Amia is frustrating. We are powerless. We can't change anything (without months of effort and OOC collaboration with the DMs or other players, at least). Any change there is to be can't start IC. It has to be an OOC decision that then accepts the IC changes that follow. I'm not interested in playing a criminal myself. I want criminals to have an easier time so that my civilized PCs will actually have to worry about them.

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I believe a part of the players that do not want negative things happen to their character see their playing time as investment. Levelling is somewhat related to that mindset because most players need considerable time to get to 30. After that, and earned IC status, if something would happen to their character, the former playing time would be perceived as 'wasted'. Thats my impression.

I agree. That's exactly what it is: you've "worked" for your character and you feel you "deserve" his/her IC achievements. It's one of the most harmful attitudes and illusions on Amia, and I think we have to uproot it if we want to move forward. That'll happen on its own as consequences start kicking in and your only options are to deal with it or leave, though. I seriously doubt many people would choose the latter.

It's probably also a matter of control. In Amia, you can be in control of your character's life. It's the kind of control you can never have in real life, and that may appeal to some. I feel the opposite, though: the charm of roleplaying is to fight for some shred of control over your character's fate as events toss him one way and the other, or simply let go and see where you end up.

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Not to spam.. But to spam... a little. I love the strong correlation here with drugs.. Drugs are an instant 'Gimme Happy' button and it's easy to get hooked. But if you go out there and work and achieve things you'll find yourself more happy (or rather more satisfied) in a more real way than the drugs ever produced for you.. Or at least that's my personal experience. So Amia needs to kick the drugs! A little, anyways. [/spam]

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

There's great truth in what you say Iron; the desire to hold onto power is, to my cynical mind, the strongest guiding force in what is essentially a faceless society. The will to hold onto any measure of power is almost an impossible one to master and it is that wall we're, in a sense, looking at now.

So, is this a question of relinquishing a modicum of personal power to facilitate an empowerment of the narrative dynamic in Amia as a persistant story world?

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Just want to point out I didn't say everyone who posted in this thread, nor did I say that people didn't amend their intial idea's. Don't take it as that please. First sentence makes it sound as if I did say that, which I didn't.


@Iron:
Look, I'm not saying don't improve storytelling, that's not how I meant it to be perceived when I made my original post in the thread. Rather, I meant
it as more of a "Keep in mind" type of thing. As I did notice some of the original idea pitches where a little heavy handed, and some of the suggestions seemed to be heading into an area Amia has stayed away from generally.

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