AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Evil folks

TormakSaber wrote:

I just think it's cooler if a faction can be recognized by color, or even better, by characters. IC reputation means so much more than sticking a name in your... name.

And that's why the colors steel blue, tan, and black make everyone weary

What the Horsemen use there tags for mainly since there is quite a few of us in different timezones is so we'll know other Horsemen are on without having to go to forum list and look up names to see if they are on. At a glance in the party list you can tell.

I've also got it wrote in my bio, that she bears no insignia openly to state she is a Horsemen. Most know General Legion because she doesn't hide the fact of who or what she is. Going so far as introducing herself with full title. However in a case where she is in disguise for one reason or another, it states in the bio what I need to be there.

Oh back on topic, lol Horsemen are evil lol they just don't see themselves as evil, much like a insane dictator or tyrannt that see's what they do as for the greater good when actually they are in fact cruel and oppressive.

To me, Lawful Evil for the most part don't necessarily show that they are and may not even know, hell there might even be Lawful Evil characters that have infiltrated a group of knights or possibly city government (lol no places mentioned) to work there malicious deeds in a subtle way. Neutral Evil might even -act- good to serve there better interests, then turn on someone when the moment suits them. Chaotic Evil....now your talking -Evil- lol as most people understand it, they are usually the ones more outwards about it, not always but usually, a band of chaotic evil pirates for example don't want to -play- the part they like doing what they want when they want and kill anyone who gets in there way. Even this considered that doesn't mean Chaotic Evil characters are stupid, if it comes between self preservation or rampant violence more often than not they can keep a modicum of self control.

Evils around, they're just good it lol so watch your backs...they are.

Truly, truly well done LE is hard to distinguish from LG, IMO.

Evil in FR's terms, doesn't necessarily constitute lots of violence(hell all adventurers kill), malicious intent to others(even paladins sometimes vehemently dislike some non-evil things), but instead, selfishness/lack of empathy.

In other words, you don't have to be a douche to be evil. Most of the times, OoCly people interpret evil to be "huh, I have to be an utter douche to people". Which is why they meet a lot of resistance. My advice is to get into the character's head. You don't always do what you do because "Marharhar, I'm evil and blowing up orphanages gets my rocks off." Sometimes its "This is the -right- thing to do. The strong deserve to rule over by the weak. The strong are obliged to enforce their order. Might is right."

To simplify all of this down into a single statement as I've rambled for a bit now: If "evil" isn't working for Amia in the ways people would like it, maybe it's time to try a new brand of "evil".

Is not the greatest evil the one that can corrupt that which is good?

Dark Immolation wrote:

Truly, truly well done LE is hard to distinguish from LG, IMO.

thanks dark!

My Sovereign wrote:

Is not the greatest evil the one that can corrupt that which is good?

I believe that to be a matter of opinion some would say yeah and list several poiniant reasons why. But just as well some would disagree choosing another form and list just as many viable reasons.

There was one toon that used to play on here that said IC this...and I think it would satisfy any would be debaters pretty well.

"The greatest evils are the ones that are happening and your not aware of it." I'm paraphrasing but that's pretty much what the toon said.

I think this covers not only corruptors of goodness but takes it a step further as well to cover a broader spectrum of malicious intent.

The best evil is the evil that all believe to be the very epitome of good. The trusted general whom leads his armies against the most unholy foe may well be one silencing the competition.

In fact, I've seen it pulled off excessively well. I don't think he's been revealed as LE yet, assuming he's still floating around.

BrainSplitter wrote:

The best evil is the evil that all believe to be the very epitome of good. The trusted general whom leads his armies against the most unholy foe may well be one silencing the competition.

Yes! I cannot agree with this statement more. Evil does not have to be right out in the open for everyone to see it and shake a finger at it. Evil characters are going to continually be made and played well despite the seeming disadvantage that they have.

Don't rule them out and don't think that they are not there just because you don't see a tag on their character names.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I disagree strongly with it, the 'best' type? So by this judgement you would consider villains like the joker, hannibal lecter, Kurtz, Arkady Svidrigailov, etc to be lesser to say...empower palpatine from star wars? yeah....nah. Also, clever cat scheming roleplay is just so cliche, I love it when movies and stories have schemer types intersect with reality when some non-schemer just nails them to the floor. The only reason scheming works at all on AMia is if you are in with teh DMs and they protect you through the use of NPCs. Its why the Harpers are so OOC disliked now, becasue people feel they are unfairly manipulating NPCs through OOC DM connections rather than having to actually work at espionage by getting in close with PCs (which would actually be good roleplay rather than the shit that has been going on).

Wyjyn wrote:

I disagree strongly with it, the 'best' type? So by this judgement you would consider villains like the joker, hannibal lecter, Kurtz, Arkady Svidrigailov, etc to be lesser to say...empower palpatine from star wars? yeah....nah. Also, clever cat scheming roleplay is just so cliche, I love it when movies and stories have schemer types intersect with reality when some non-schemer just nails them to the floor. The only reason scheming works at all on AMia is if you are in with teh DMs and they protect you through the use of NPCs. Its why the Harpers are so OOC disliked now, becasue people feel they are unfairly manipulating NPCs through OOC DM connections rather than having to actually work at espionage by getting in close with PCs (which would actually be good roleplay rather than the shit that has been going on).

I would not consider those villains or their "types" to be lesser one bit. All I was saying is that in MY opinion and in the setting that is Amia, the "schemers" seem to work best. You're an open villain? Every good faction consolidates and eradicates you. That might be fun for a while, but where is the depth and where is the pay-off?

As far as your claim goes towards the Harpers? I can't say anything one way or the other about all that because I don't know anything about the validity in your claims and I'd say most people who complain about that are people who don't know what they are talking about. That seems to be a general rule for most things.

i dont know, palpatine took over the galaxy by playing a nice guy, dont see how you can be more of a villain than that

The sad thing is if Star Wars were NwN, he would have been metagamed.

Honestly, you can only metagame information that is known OOC. So it comes to a situation wherein you need to remain as extremely quiet as possible OOC, as well as IC.

If you are the only person who knows (Including both Players and Characters), then it is in a literal manner impossible for anyone else to metagame.

gorgometh wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

I disagree strongly with it, the 'best' type? So by this judgement you would consider villains like the joker, hannibal lecter, Kurtz, Arkady Svidrigailov, etc to be lesser to say...empower palpatine from star wars? yeah....nah. Also, clever cat scheming roleplay is just so cliche, I love it when movies and stories have schemer types intersect with reality when some non-schemer just nails them to the floor. The only reason scheming works at all on AMia is if you are in with teh DMs and they protect you through the use of NPCs. Its why the Harpers are so OOC disliked now, becasue people feel they are unfairly manipulating NPCs through OOC DM connections rather than having to actually work at espionage by getting in close with PCs (which would actually be good roleplay rather than the shit that has been going on).

I would not consider those villains or their "types" to be lesser one bit. All I was saying is that in MY opinion and in the setting that is Amia, the "schemers" seem to work best. You're an open villain? Every good faction consolidates and eradicates you. That might be fun for a while, but where is the depth and where is the pay-off?

As far as your claim goes towards the Harpers? I can't say anything one way or the other about all that because I don't know anything about the validity in your claims and I'd say most people who complain about that are people who don't know what they are talking about. That seems to be a general rule for most things.

Re-read what you've written there... "You're an open villain? Every good faction consolidates and eradicates you" ... why is it that easy? Why is an 'open' bad guy so so easy to find and kill?

Q: Where's his base?
A: Oh, everyone knows that... SOMEONE must have been there IC...

Q: Does he have any help?
A: No, we smashed the other evil guys last month and they haven't rebuilt yet...

Q: What if he can summon a mighty deamon host?
A: Nah, I would have seen something about it on the forums and he'd need heaps of DM approval and that'd take time and he's a pretty new 'open' evil guy...

Q: What if he steals my soul and banishes it to the outer planes of deadness?
A: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

IC questions... where do the answers come from. Now, I'm not accusing everyone of being a metagamer; but knowledge does cross over and the base IC element of 'fear' isn't there

As I mentioned in the other thread;

OOC information can only be transferred if there is OOC information to begin with. Strict self discipline in regards to information is necessary if you want to avoid metagaming. Simply because it's impossible to metagame information if the information isn't available to be metagamed. This has been made easier with Challenge Ratings no longer being visible.

Wyjyn, you're starting to sound like you are approaching critical mass again like you did a few months ago when you self-immolated on the forums. I don't want to see that happen to you again, so tone it down a few notches.

There is no "or else" here, btw. It may be faintly implied because of that title over there, but this is a request, not a command.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

The problem here for me is a simple one and that is I don't see any valid justification for shutting these areas down. Burningoutbright for instance got sick of it, I get that kind of, but its restricted to Cordor South. So basically, she doesnt have to go there and she doesnt have to play a guard. If its imperative that she plays a guard but doesnt want that specific guard roleplay, surely there is a more creative solution then shutting down the roleplay? If you were not in the mood for it, you simply could avoid the area. What it seems to me is being said is that people wanted to go into South Cordor and win, or they wanted the crime roleplay to be 'exactly' as they wished it to be. Sort of a 'my way or nothing'. Hence I stated the arguments against crime roleplay were awful. Its one area of the server, get over it.

I suggest you reread my posts to try and understand my sentiments, thank you, because you're wrong. I'm not going to argue to defend myself and my opinion when I believe it's there and stated quite well. Thank you.

Well, I have a question about that, Wyjyn, but I'm going to throw it over in the crime thread because it relates to Cordor South and crime RP specifically as a small subsection of, uh, whatever's being talked about in this thread which I've either forgotten or never knew in the first place....

alamut wrote:

Evil folks - where are you ?

In your closet. :twisted:

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Burningoutbright wrote:

I suggest you reread my posts to try and understand my sentiments, thank you, because you're wrong. I'm not going to argue to defend myself and my opinion when I believe it's there and stated quite well. Thank you.

Re-read them and came to the precise same conclusion really.

Quote:

So, basically, my take on criminal RP, and the challenge for criminal RPers is: Be creative. Make it interesting. Try not to get caught at all, and play the cards straight to eliminate all suspicion.

Isn't it sort of implied that if they are doing it, for whatever reason, it is already interesting for them? So basically the charge of criminal roleplayers is to be interesting for you, or not exist. Great.

TormakSaber wrote:

Colors are one way. Another way is cloak designs, or weapons, or shields.

Can I take that literally and recreate a Loviatar symbol on a different model of cloak, throw it into the lovely NWN format and hand it in? >.> I'd wear the current one but the cloak itself covers up shoulders and looks hideous.

Oh, and as for some of the evil people, we just hide in our Churches until the Good people are off at school. Then we come out to play.

The truth is the evil people are out there, but for "evil" its hard to find a real reason to seek each other out let alone work together.

We are there but in small pockets, all with different goals and aims, all with different outlooks, the goods guys have different philosophical views opposing deity views etc, but the one thing they have is they dont mind pushing these aside to "beat the crap out of" anyone who appears to be evil and working together lol

Thing is "Evil" people dont often work together, they are busy screwing each other and whoever they can do get ahead personally, the only way the all work together is when they have "aligned" goals, and until there is some "real" legit reason for the evil individual or factions of amai to work together.

we will just keep getting our ass handed to us.

guess that's a reason in itself right ?.... but who would lead this >.<

So...
The (visible) Bad Guys can't work together, thus get themselves stomped into the curb because they're isolated; but they don't work together because they can't find a reason to stick together?

The answer seems to be within the problem, IMHO.

I also fail to see how that's anyone's fault but the Bad Guys. If you can't work together and thus get yourselves Divided and Conquered, that probably comes down to you, well, not working together.

My kind of bad guy is the one that manages to stay hidden among the good guys, and eats their families while he is at it.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

BrainSplitter wrote:

So...
The (visible) Bad Guys can't work together, thus get themselves stomped into the curb because they're isolated; but they don't work together because they can't find a reason to stick together?

The answer seems to be within the problem, IMHO.

I also fail to see how that's anyone's fault but the Bad Guys. If you can't work together and thus get yourselves Divided and Conquered, that probably comes down to you, well, not working together.

That isnt the problem at all. With the banites we saw clearly what happens when the visible baddies get organized enough to start causing problems, the DMs and you specifically came down hard on them and that is why this thread exists.

Wyjyn, if you continue this behaviour I'll be sure to bring it to the attention of the DMs. Your consistent targetting and OOC Abuse is growing both boring, and ultimately tiresome. I believe that does classify as specific incidents.

In regards to the Banite Conflict against the Black Caravan; if anyone is still grudging over old news, they can send me a PM and I'll happily deal with it like a civilized human being.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Actually, I didn't bring up any specific incident. Technically, though, you did by bringing up the Black Caravan. So good luck with that specific incident argument ;D . There was a series of incidents and I am sure someone else can detail them further, I saw several and was hardly paying attention. I am guessing its why 762 cannot get over it, because it was so obviously biased against them.

Consider your response to my request for you to cease targetted comments both noted and recorded.

I belive this thread is more of a "wake" up evil people kind of thread, but i belive we are awak and doing our thing.

You cant say its "our problem"

the only way to fix it is to "Break" real rp, id have to make up BS reasons to band together with people that are evil lol.

I think ultimatley its almost impossibule to honestly have the "evil" community working together 100%, we are evil and cant help that fact that we are out for ourselves, an the only way youc ans top that is if there is a dog big enougg to back hand the rest into line.

so far there aint a big dog anymore, banites were getting there. but that was crushed.

anytime anyone trys to be organized and band people together thought fear or profit or whatever the good guys suddenly spark to life and kill them all.

The HOA have done a pretty good job of building up and laying low, but they are not going to side with "evil" people they are gonna side with whoever they deem will service there purposes. ( an the moment they do side with the wrong people it will be their end like all the rest)

Thus i personally and sadly belive the only way that us bad guys would have a chance is if a DM or the Staff created a few bad guy npc or even better perhaps a "war" with a top dog NPC, perhaps this Summoning plot could do just that, a "demon" war were the evil pc can work together to conquer parts of the island and have a reason to work together.

Perhaps a city or a fort could be built a "Free trade" place for slaves and everyone for all evil characters, and it could come from the mainland, such as the Black Network Zhents ?

well just my thoughts anyhow, ill keep trying to make it work icly the old fashion way anyhow.

Valkin is an up himself power hungry megalomaniac, but hed bow and serve someone if they proved to be far more powerful and knowledgeable than him, if there was only somone willing to take on the mantle of the "Dark overlord" or some such lol

What's confusing me is that there are plenty-big reasons for otherwise disagreeing Evil factions to work together, especially in the face of Cordor, Kohlingen, and various do-gooder parties.

A mutual "We'll stay out of eachother's way, and stop the do-gooders from winning" is quite plausible, IMHO. Some specific pairings aren't likely to happen, however I don't believe there's no tangible, or reasonable, IC reason for bad guys to work together.

It's simply a question of how long they can make it last, and keep their eyes both on their own objectives - and the one massive obstacle that they're all facing. The good guys.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

[quote='Yossarin']No flaming. No insulting. No baiting.[/quote]

That is not abuse. What you are doing, though, is probably baiting.

I will, once again, calmly ask that you cease your targetted statements, and now accusations of baiting; as I consider it harassment given previous history, and will report it as such.

Seriously stay in-topic pls

I disagree tho.

it is almost the nature of people who play evil characters to screw each other or just be involved in rp and pvp that ends such arrangements quickly. an seeming there is no way to punish characters icly that is actually scary well they do whatever they want, then by doing watever they want the evil guys cant actually "control" each-other.

As for "generally" working together, what do you mean cordor and khol... i mean what ic reason has valkin got to be concerned with them... he has not a care int he word from them in-fact best wishes to them, ig to no reason to do anything to them just because they are good ? *shrugs* whatever its those guys that get all funny about whats right and wrong, valkin dont care either way lol.

I guess we could all band together and decide to finally "rid" the island of those who would oppose us or at least cull there numbers. but... how can we do that.

iv been told occly we cant "edn" kholigen or "end" Cordor "EVER" so we cant do anything about the citys and the NPC can we ? so players then.. well they never stay dead so we can hunt them down or ambush them or do anything to adversely effect them, i guess we can in some cases trash there faction area *sigh* wow drama did it achive anything NO... so why do it other than for fun occ AWESOME but icly no way.

Point is we can't "Effect" amia with our evil ways, we cant have a long standing effect we cant siege city's we cant end factions as the faction's are PC's and even if 10-20% of the pc in a faction actually agreed to perma-death or "Retirement" or some such rp the rest would continue on, and join another good/ evil faction and the cycle repeats.

good has the advantage, its easy for dm, its easy for players and there are so-many reasons for good guys to band together and work as a team they can just make it up as they go.

>.< again i would LOVE to see amia invaded and allow evil pc a chance to work together under the banner of some powerful force

even if i go out every day and blow up 100 faction bases churches schools and orphanages as well as kill pc characters etc etc ultimately it will have no long standing effect. there are simply more good guys working together and they dont stay dead *shrugs* bad guys are just as bad we dont stay dead either.

the problem is that all evil people don't have those central factions nowadays and are roughly spread around the server, while all the good factions are more or less allied and dominate/control the areas. It kind of reminds me of the first level of a tower defence game... sporadic gangs of poor little villains on their death march through a labyrinth, besieged by a field of canontowers and flamethrowers.

Oh my evil heart is bleeding...

wiggedi2 wrote:

the problem is that all evil people don't have those central factions nowadays and are roughly spread around the server, while all the good factions are more or less allied and dominate/control the areas. It kind of reminds me of the first level of a tower defence game... sporadic gangs of poor little villains on their death march through a labyrinth, besieged by a field of canontowers and flamethrowers.

Oh my evil heart is bleeding...

O what a world lol

When Christmas break rolls around, I will be working hard to bring evil, back into the dark.

Bonfire.. Of.. Insanity.. Gi3f.

Everyone make a new character, we'll form a massive group of level 3 super-villians / raiders / militia or what have you and we'll take over Bendir Dale, Cordor or any other place of any kind of importance!

*nods* sounds like a plan, perhaps we should make all there last names "swarm"

I would like to thank you all for the constructive statements. It's good to know you noticed that as well. And I hope we could work "together" to archive something interesting in game, creating a new perceptive, and also creative, about how to play evil folks/faction.

Im in! >:D

Thing with evil

You need an reason why to be evil, that leads you to what goals would your evilness tend towards, in turn causing an need for way how to accomplish goal, and what to do once goal is compleated.

For example:

Evil Co. wishes power and money, but due to their tactics and demandor, they decide following:
Way to gain goal 1: To gain power, we need more like minded individuals, giving more power to our roar and punch.
Way to gain goal 2: To gain money we will start Assassination guild (random example) and perform raids.

If you for example, find 4 minions and get part of goal 1 done, it gives you head on boost to goal two (4 minions to work the guild or raids).
If you on other hand manage to raise money on solo raids, you could hire 4 minions and again, go back to more profitable way of earning money, in turn gaining more minions... vicious circle.

Thing is, you need that one guy who will play first gear of great evil machine. And he needs to be jaded enough not to give up when he is bruised several times.

Uh, I am over it, Wyjyn. I wasn't even around for the BC event.

I don't blame anyone for the Banites' demise. It's simply an outgrowth of the server setting, which is predominantly good-oriented.

This means any overt evil faction which takes an active role (like the Church of Bane) is eventually going to be defeated, and is thus temporary in nature. You reach a point of critical mass when you piss off the entire setting, until they coalesce into a group which can defeat you. It's only a question of when.

The conclusion is that overt evil doesn't work on Amia unless it's willing to mind its own business. Everything must be done cloak and dagger style, because of the good-oriented setting.

I've been running cloak and dagger now, for too long. But sadly there is only a limit as to what one can do covertly with no DM Backing (Not a flame, just that i log when no DM's are online) or lack of other people to interact with who are willing to do as asked of them. So currently i have resorted to doing... pretty much nothing, and hoping something fun comes along one day. Which is doubtful.

I find it hard to believe that bane has been defeated, I have no banite of my own but post-war I saw enough of a sign that people we're still lurking, though scattered. at the end of the day obviously it comes down to players and numbers, but a key factor imho is the fact that the base was destroyed, with no HQ you lose communications and then you lose, full stop. war is about tactics, use em. you don't need dm permission to rally the troops for round 2.

ed: in no way is the above ment as a snipe at anybody, use your imaginations and cunning and do something about it if you are up to the challenge, its down to you guys.

@Mathan: I should have mentioned that's part of it. It's impossible to accomplish anything significant on the sly without DM support.

@Glyph: I haven't counted how many active players are in the faction now, but before the keep was destroyed the Church of Bane had about 30. I'm guessing now it's a fifth of that.

And most of the remainder (those who have more or less quit the faction, I mean) have left the server I believe. Some linger around on good or neutral alts (like me).

I will say it has in the past been cyclical. We had a high point (17 I think) with the Wharftown event a few years ago, and it's gone up and down since, peaking at about 40 six months or so ago. So who knows.

I think this recent experience has been educational for a lot of people though, myself included.

BrainSplitter wrote:

As I mentioned in the other thread;

OOC information can only be transferred if there is OOC information to begin with. Strict self discipline in regards to information is necessary if you want to avoid metagaming. Simply because it's impossible to metagame information if the information isn't available to be metagamed. This has been made easier with Challenge Ratings no longer being visible.

I agree.

I think it would be a matter of pride to NOT be a metagamer. I've been on servers where metagamers were practically shunned.

My evil characters play it cool. I consider them evil only because they have no conscience about screwing someone over to enhance their own status, and they have no problem killing for selfish reasons. One of them is even a pretty sensitive and friendly guy, unless he feels screwed over and cheated... then he will gut the offender without a second thought.

Honestly, evil can take roughly half the blame. I'm not a DM, but I have seen meetings between evil faction leaders go up in flames do to honestly,bullcrap. Who's sword is bigger nonsense. There are moments where I see two evil faction leaders come, and once the hostilities begin, I groan inside.

And the worse part is even when and if evil factions come together, their own dogmas and goals is so vastly different, so it only fuels the bigger sword contest.

If I've seen it I'm sure the DMs have too...they probably groan inside too.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

And the worse part is even when and if evil factions come together, their own dogmas and goals is so vastly different, so it only fuels the bigger sword contest.

This is perhaps the main problem with "evil banding together". Good Characters can band together with the unified cause of taking down Evil, while Evil on the other hand usually don't share the same Dogma for their Deities and thus it ends up being Evil vs Evil. Therefore you've got Good + Good vs Evil vs Evil.

Only scenario that I can think of that got Malicar some new "evil" friends outside of his Church (aside from Banites, he mixed with them easily enough) was Hellballing during the Shadowflame tournament and killing a handful of spectators and his opponent. He enjoys causing pain and knew that'd be the case if he cast it, but the other Evil characters liked the chaos. He's Lawful Evil and thus casting Hellball during a tournament was a legitimate tactic and was kosher with the rules, so it was a rarity that he got along with a couple Chaotics after that.

The point being, the reasons for Evil to like each other are few and far between.

Always have contingencies.

A successful villain will be intimately aware of their capability and abilities, both strengths and weaknesses, and plan accordingly.

A villain should be secure in himself. No need to leave signs, cryptic notes, messages.

Evil folks - where are you ?

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