AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Crime and Punishment: What is criminal RP on Amia?

That is a curious proposition Yoss... While courts serve the same purpose and function similarly, they all do not function the same way. Protocol varies from place to place. Is there a set style for Cordor already?

I've played criminals before and can play them and I've actually very cool with consequences and even a perma death. I personally don't mind all that.. then again that is just me and i'm not the usual player. Although I would like to see some more petty crime in Cordor.. I have already done a bit myself out of guards view. It's possible.

People have said it time and time again: "Be creative." To be creative, you should try and understand your fellow players and what they're looking for out of the game. Especially if it's not what you look for! More opportunity to expand and try to be creative! For example, try not to just rob and steal from Nivo. He posted in this thread about how that's not what he likes. But I do think that he would have fun with some sort of Criminal RP, it's just all a matter of figuring out what it is.

I've participated in Criminal RP both on the Surface and off.. some has worked, some hasn't. My tip is just to put others above yourself. Yes, this is a game. We're all here to have fun, ourselves. But you're not going to have fun if you piss everyone off. So try to figure out how to respect them first, but also have fun yourself.

That's all!

Also, Yoss, you're hilarious.

And Nev-- nice posts.

DustSpray101 wrote:

That is a curious proposition Yoss... While courts serve the same purpose and function similarly, they all do not function the same way. Protocol varies from place to place. Is there a set style for Cordor already?

Kinda-sorta. There's never been a real need to flesh it out at all in any detail, because it would be a waste of time due to its ultimate lack of relevance when PCs cannot actually suffer any of the negative consequences of legal indictment, up to and including execution, and even massive fines hardly make a dent with the economy the way it is. So in the "crime and punishment" debate, there is no punishment a player won't bitch about hampering him or her OOC'ly.

My proposition, btw, is also a highly dangerous one, but I am a bit of a maverick on the DM team, I think, sometimes. I waffle between wanting to give opportunities for you to do something great or destroy everything while making my job trying to minimize the amount of collateral damage you'll create if you take your inch and make it a mile-wide streak of destruction, and saying, "We've been there, we've done that, it won't work that way."

I just feel, innately, that the server cannot progress unless we take certain risks, be experimental, and be willing to fail without completely throwing ourselves off balance.

Suffice it to say, though, Neveah is right about the fundamental problem you would encounter right now with legality in Cordor - if you don't have a Certificate of Citizenship, they don't give a shit about you, and some of you have found this out the hard way. In which case, good luck getting the city to financially support a fair trial for you. A right-to-trial, in my opinion, actually doesn't exist as a law, and is rather something they do when there is a deep conflict that could result in either bloodshed OR could result in changes to the law - which is why the ACLU v. Galverson originally went to trial.

BLACK's trial was, as some of you may have guessed, a PR thing. The evidence against was ridiculously overwhelming but a public trial provided an grand opportunity to create the monstrous image of the Amian Conscripted Knights as a terrorist organization...

If they actually do give a shit about you, and you don't have a Certificate of Citizenship, you may have been the subject of a certain pressure to apply and receive one.

Sometimes, it is better to remain obscured..

DustSpray101 wrote:

*points at the pretty peacock* that.

Did someone mention me? Hm?

*Flourishes*

I guess what I am most curious about is if there was a clear cut system created and made publically known, would more intelligent criminals and vigilantes arise as people would start to try to trick the system itself? Consider it an escapism fantasy social study.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Consider it an escapism fantasy social study.

Isn't this Amia itself?

Anywho I would like to have seen these trials and such.. sounds fun to me.

Nev you made quite a few good points there. It's rather sad that you've only seen three good crimminal RPers in all your time on Amia; I've seen quite a few people attempt to RP being a crook and just give up because there was nothing to do. Their usual comment was 'why do I need to have a bunch of people with me to get DM permission?'. There was a general assumption, as was mentioned before, that anyone wanting to RP a criminal is going to be a twerp about it but that appears to be the prevailing attitude.

TormakSaber wrote:

Nev's post hit it on the head, most of the rest of the topic isn't worth reading.

All I've seen here is why criminal RP is bad. No one seems interested in the upside. If guards feel like overworked childcare workers then get another job or demand real punishments. If people don't like consequences for their PCs then why are they playing an RP game?

So far the majority answer to the original 'what is criminal RP on Amia' question seems to be 'It's a bloody pain in the neck that has little to no place here'. Yoss mand a good point with the 'everyone should be like me' comment. Sadly the other side to this is 'if you're not like me you get nothing'.

It seems that people just don't want any consequences... being good and staying somewhere safe appears to be the happy norm. So, Sims with Swords it is; but don't claim Amia is an RP server.

P.S.: This is not intended as a 'flame' post because if you read back this is exactly what has been said. To paraphrase; those that RP criminals here are not good enough RPers to accuratly play a criminal.

I think you missed some of the replies to your own post O.o please re-read them.

No one has said that criminal RP is bad all together, it is only that eventually one person or another comes along and spoils the fun when things don't go their way.

If it's one person then punish that person. My issue is that an entire character concept is pre-emptivly punished here. Amia is at present experiencing a resurgent interest in criminal RP; it will be mighty interesting to see how it all goes.

To be honest I've been quite surprised at the scope of negativity that has come out of this topic; it was intended to provoke discussion on the evolution of criminal RP but very quickly attract a plethora of posts illustrating why this should be a very limited function within the game world.

Yossarin wrote:

BLACK's trial was, as some of you may have guessed, a PR thing. The evidence against was ridiculously overwhelming...

I disagree! Further, I again re-state my innocence!

Now then where was I,

Basically my opinion of the subject of being a criminal is simple, if you want to commit a crime you must be willing to accept the fact that you are breaking the law. That entails accepting real punishments and consequences, things like allowing your character to be executed, or imprisoned indefinitely, or having your possessions impounded, or any number of bad things that tend to happen to criminals. That's exactly one half of the criminal equation, without the risk there is no point. If you are willing to accept the risks in a mature and reasonable fashion I think you'll find that Criminal RP is very possible on Amia and in Cordor.

Yes, risk versus reward is all part of the fun. But I've been saying that all along. The risk should also come from the crooks co-workers... and yes mature and responsible play comes into it.

That said; applying these risks to 'criminals' only (as opposed to mass murderers and demon summoning fiends) is stupid. A necromancer get's banned from the city for tormenting souls, a petty thief get's thrown in the clink for a year?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for harsh penalties and would accept them even if they were only applied to crooks in cities... but I would also like to see the risk be justified by the reward.

billytheid wrote:

...but I would also like to see the risk be justified by the reward.

Personally I think the RP is the reward, I would never make a thief because I wanted to get lots of money, it's the satisfaction of RPing a thief that I love.

Ðraco wrote:

billytheid wrote:

...but I would also like to see the risk be justified by the reward.

Personally I think the RP is the reward, I would never make a thief because I wanted to get lots of money, it's the satisfaction of RPing a thief that I love.

I think you're simplifying things a little here. Part of the RP you speak of is people fearing the loss they would suffer... that 'loss' doesn't have to go into the pockets of the crooks involved. Playing a criminal thief means you steal things... all of the RP is fun and rewarding... but you do steal things. Selling them for coin makes sense.

There is no fear of death on Amia and perma-death is not going to happen... the only other thing people really seem to fear is not having a mass of stuff. I'm sure there are some people who would sympathise with NPCs being robbed... but they wouldn't go hunting for what they take.

The job system has introduced heaps more stuff that can be stolen and easily replaced. Can we steal this kind of stuff? That would be rewarding AND traceable.

Temple of Waukeen got robbed by a PC rogue.

I think that pretty much sums up exactly what can be stolen. The limits are endless.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

So I guess all these toughie guard PCs and DMs are willing to accept the reverse as well, that if their guard PC or whatever loses in some way they will accept the consequences properly? Right? That is what you are saying right? Becuase if that is not what you are saying that would make you all quite the hypocrits.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Temple of Waukeen got robbed by a PC rogue.

I think that pretty much sums up exactly what can be stolen. The limits are endless.

One PC playing a Private Investigator tried to follow that theft up. Unfortunatly RL got in the way and they had to stop. Aside from that NOBODY tried to catch the thief. Clues were left, there was plenty of scope for follow up and investigation but NOTHING happened.

The simple fact was that no one cared because they didn't lose anything. The theif stopped leaving clues because no one tried to catch them.

So your ideal Thief RP is to instill in other people whom play the video game a sense of fear (a negative emotion) of losing things they likely percieve as having worked for? And what's your response to people whom wouldn't find this enjoyable, hm? Is the Thief's enjoyment the only operative factor? As long as the Thief gets to RP his Thief stealing things (which, I'll add, involves taking things from other players and instilling a directly negative effect upon them), irrespective of the other player's enjoyment?

So what if it's just some gold. If the opposing player gets annoyed by the loss, and your only justification is 'I'm a Thief', well... You're really playing it shallow. The Taking portion of it makes it significantly more severe than anything else. Even PvP, when you kill someone, the most you're doing is maybe wasting their time a little.

BrainSplitter wrote:

So your ideal Thief RP is to instill in other people whom play the video game a sense of fear (a negative emotion) of losing things they likely percieve as having worked for? And what's your response to people whom wouldn't find this enjoyable, hm? Is the Thief's enjoyment the only operative factor? As long as the Thief gets to RP his Thief stealing things (which, I'll add, involves taking things from other players and instilling a directly negative effect upon them), irrespective of the other player's enjoyment?

So what if it's just some gold. If the opposing player gets annoyed by the loss, and your only justification is 'I'm a Thief', well... You're really playing it shallow. The Taking portion of it makes it significantly more severe than anything else. Even PvP, when you kill someone, the most you're doing is maybe wasting their time a little.

I don't think any of it as a waste of time or really that negative.. people should use this in their RP..simple as that.. why does Amia need to be filled with everything going your way all the time. I know people play this game for fun.. i get it.. but like you say in PVP you are just wasting someones time.. I don't see it as a waste. People get really upset in PVP sometimes, it doesn't mean we shouldn't allow pvp because someone doesn't like it. What about some character depth here. Being a thief isn't shallow.. unless I am not fully understanding your meaning.

You're not getting what I'm saying.

PvP - The biggest Con you do to an opponent player, is waste their time, which is boring and occasionally frustrating. If they get bored, they have means of dealing with it directly. They can just log out if need be, and suddenly they have their time back.

Theft - You take something. When compared to 'Time', this is actually significantly greater in value given the playerbase's typical attitude. No one likes their things being taken, and especially things that they (perceptively) worked for. If they want their stuff back, there isn't a straightforward means of getting it back, and thus the Thief has incurred a loss to the opposite player (Items Taken), while the Thief earns a perk (Items Acquired), and the Victim is not typically in a position to return the favour.

This comes down to 'People want to have fun. Having your stuff taken is not fun'. It's also, obviously, not -gold- that wants to be taken as that's been shot down many times as being 'meaningless' - so what are you going to take? Player Characters only have two things. Gold. Equipment.

So, really. If you want to play a thief just so you can take stuff, without respect to the other player, then you (The Player) are ultimately being quite shallow. It's even been touted that this will instill a fear of having your things taken.

I see no Pro to a fear of having your things taken by some nitwit thief, especially when some players are precious of their gear, and some rightfully so.

Last edited by billytheid on Fri, Oct 29 2010, 3:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yes damnit, IC fear. Why do people go sky diving, bungee jumping and so forth? It's scary and exciteing... that would be a nice addition to Amia wouldn't it? A little more immersion, a wider scope of emotive interaction. This is supposed to be an immersive RP world in a dangerous environment.

Are we seriously that childish that we're going to have a cry because someone stole a toy!?!

EDIT: And killing someone is just wasting their time? No it's not! It's KILLING the PC... terrible, horrible end of life. But there is no fear or concern there.

Consider how people get up in arms about PvP in our playerbase.

You think taking people's things will be better?

Of course, I assume you'd also be willing to have situational rules on Theft along the lines of PvP, such as;

There must be an Out.
And therefore; there must be RP to provide the out.

If you want extreme immersion, risk, and reward - Hardcore is right over there. I think you'll like it. You also need to be afraid of not eating enough and starving to death.

Inversely, you could just do what I, and many others have done with success.

Roleplay it, and be considerate. I have a thief (or rather, Had, as I don't play anymore) that was quite successful as far as petty thieves were concerned. All it took was an RP'd attempt at a courtesy tell saying "Character is trying to do X. Are you cool?". If they aren't cool, why waste your time on them? Do you really want to push that on them when they are not comfortable with that RP? I mean, how selfish can you be?

.o( This person is not cool with me stealing their stuff, but hey, I'M the thief - I'm taking it anyway. )

BrainSplitter wrote:

Inversely, you could just do what I, and many others have done with success.

Roleplay it, and be considerate. I have a thief (or rather, Had, as I don't play anymore) that was quite successful as far as petty thieves were concerned. All it took was an RP'd attempt at a courtesy tell saying "Character is trying to do X. Are you cool?". If they aren't cool, why waste your time on them? Do you really want to push that on them when they are not comfortable with that RP? I mean, how selfish can you be?

.o( This person is not cool with me stealing their stuff, but hey, I'M the thief - I'm taking it anyway. )

I think we are all saying this should be happening but there are too many guards watching..

I don't believe anyone is trying to push anything on anyone, honestly.

Given the posts in this thread by the Pro-Thieves, and billytheid's in particular, it seems to me alot more like "Thieves should have a means of stealing from other characters", directly.

As it stands, you can do Thief RP on your own and with your fellow players quite comfortably. As long as you respect your fellow player.

OK, I'm going to take that last few comments with a grain of salt and assume you're not saying 'if you don't like it then get out'.

I'll go back to the original question; what and how is criminal RP on Amia conducted? How can it have an impact on the game world if PCs are not the target of the offence.

It's been demonstrated in the past that robbing NPC groups has little to no impact; so what then? Real crime would give Guards something to do other then escort loudmouthed pests from the cities.

As to the ask them first; yes that is a possibility... but, as with assassinations, the target will usually take precautions that would otherwise not have been present. It also leads to the 'hey! I stole 100 gold from that guy!'... why would a thieves guild bother when it is obvious that half the server are multi-millionairs weighted down with priceless artifacts?

There is also the possibility of stealing jobsystem items. These are not unique and can be replaced without too much stress.

Should we harden up and raise the bar? Would it benifit the overall feel of the game? Bear in mind that 'overall feel' doesn't always mean 'better for me'.

Quote:

OK, I'm going to take that last few comments with a grain of salt and assume you're not saying 'if you don't like it then get out'.

That's actually exactly what I'm saying. "Don't like how Criminal RP has to work on Amia? Then get out of the Criminal RP Scene"

Quote:

I'll go back to the original question; what and how is criminal RP on Amia conducted? How can it have an impact on the game world if PCs are not the target of the offence.

Courtesy, mutual player agreement. You want to pickpocket someone, do the leadup RP, ask in a tell if they're kosher with it. If they either A; Metagame, or B; Illustrate discomfort, then your character decides they're a poor mark and move onto the next person that seems a potential victim.

The same goes for thieving someone's corpse. Ask them. "Do you mind if my character takes X? You can try get it back later".

Quote:

It's been demonstrated in the past that robbing NPC groups has little to no impact; so what then? Real crime would give Guards something to do other then escort loudmouthed pests from the cities.

Robbing NPC Groups or otherwise performing criminal acts against NPC groups has little to no impact? I would like to bring your attention to the (of course innocent of the accused crimes) B.L.A.C.K. Organization whom has done a stunning job of this over it's time, and gotten quite alot of player interest despite largely targetting, well, NPCs.

Quote:

As to the ask them first; yes that is a possibility... but, as with assassinations, the target will usually take precautions that would otherwise not have been present. It also leads to the 'hey! I stole 100 gold from that guy!'... why would a thieves guild bother when it is obvious that half the server are multi-millionairs weighted down with priceless artifacts?

This is largely what I'm harping on. You want to steal more from them? If the player is only comfortable giving you 100 gold, then they are, by definition, uncomfortable with a higher amount. If that discomfort is irrelevant and you deem you need more, then you're pulling into "I have no OOC Courtesy" territory. Take what you can get. If the target metagames, then really; are they worth the effort?

Quote:

Should we harden up and raise the bar? Would it benifit the overall feel of the game? Bear in mind that 'overall feel' doesn't always mean 'better for me'.

In the words of a wise man; Tough Up Princess. You take what you can get. You play a character type that does not properly mesh with either the setting, the culture, or the playerbase's general attitudes you need to expect some amount of difficulty or lessened effect in the long run. This is the same playerbase whose characters are supposedly rendered completely obsolete by balance changes, or where PvP is the most gruelling thing to ever happen to them.

You want to take more from players who do not want to give you more? Deal with it.

I was trying to think of a way to respond to this that would continue to be productive, and not start an argument, so I'll say this and avoid being baited. I don't think this is anything that talking on the forums will fix. If there is going to be change, it needs to be put into practice and then people's minds will change. Show me some of this exceptional criminal RP and show me it's not going to result in any of the frequent scenarios I posted earlier, where the players involved are:
a) Frustrated
b) Bored
c) Otherwise dissatisfied and/or unhappy.

I do not enjoy criminal RP, by and large, as it is. From the usual criminal RPers I get, they don't enjoy it either. The thing you have to get about Cordor is we have PC guards and NPC guards who work together. In situations with PC guards around, you deal with both. Not one or the other. It's not going to get easier for criminal RPers in Cordor, and it is challenging to be a criminal in a place swarming with Guards. Maybe it's not a prime location for your crime RP after all, hm? Especially not for the amateurs, who are out to get a reaction only and have no plan. I am usually not impressed by criminal RP because it's so obvious and is just there to get attention on them. See: Tedious and boring.

So, please. If you want to be a criminal, don't do it to get attention and then cry when all your grandstanding for attention gets you locked up or otherwise. I'm not going to start pushing the DMs for "real punishments" like enforcing permadeath or item removal, because those things are negative towards players as well as the PCs. What I wish would happen is that there would be respect for punishments and have the character go, "Ouch. I'm not doing that again. Not like that anyway." But, I am very likely dreaming.

The gist of it is, it's not going to get any easier to do criminal RP if you keep reusing the same lame plans, and it's not going to be any more fun for anyone. Freshen up the act, have me change my mind. Please. Prove me wrong. As it stands, I'm not optimistic for the times I get involved with criminal RP, but I attempt to humor it for the sake of the RP.

Also, Jess. Those things have very little value on their own anyway. I'm not sure what you want. You want a payoff and good reward for a risk that really doesn't exist because no one likes consequences, and you suggest worthless common items to be stolen? Even though the really nice stuff you'd want to steal is from the burglar job already? Thieves among thieves, I suppose.

if you run a criminal you might try sending them a message in tells asking ooc'ly if they'd be down with it. If not then why waste your time on someone that isn't going to have fun with a rp you come up with. Seperate yourself from your toon and think whats actually going on. Your playing a game, if you think things through and communicate with the other player,...hell they might even ooc'ly "give" your thief 10k or more in gold that he got in the mugging after you ooc res them. I play a Yakuza, -assassin- uuh make that bounty hunter lol he wears black when he's -on the job- only otherwise he poses as a ranger in forest colors and since he has class level and a companion he's technically not in disguise...just doing his day job lol. It's been said time and again "Be Creative", if your stupid especially in a place like Cordor your -going- to get caught. Word of advice don't mug in the daytime and mugging in Cordor square...a bad idea. Case a character follow them hell befriend them talk them into following you since your a good tracker and you know where a large hord of treasure is but you can't get there by yourself. It's not the hard to come up with how to's you just have to think.

Greyweaver wrote:

if you run a criminal you might try sending them a message in tells asking ooc'ly if they'd be down with it. If not then why waste your time on someone that isn't going to have fun with a rp you come up with. Seperate yourself from your toon and think whats actually going on. Your playing a game, if you think things through and communicate with the other player,...hell they might even ooc'ly "give" your thief 10k or more in gold that he got in the mugging after you ooc res them.

Pretty much.

I really doubt it. Players will always complain that there is the possibility to steal physical items from people. Plus the thieves will complain when they get caught. Swear they were metagammed because they are the best thieves ever.
Why do you think Pickpocket was changed? Its a can of worms to huge issues and problems we do not need. It is also a griefing opportunity for people who have nothing better to do than rob the low levels. Even making that opportunity is a no.
Be creative with your RP, if stuff doesn't workout IC, you're doing it wrong. No one else's fault.

And your example of how the robber of Waukeen's Temple was never caught or whatever. What is going to stop that for others? Especially when you want to open it to literally an unlimited amount of these events happening at once? Its a bad zone to get into. People will still just log off, not log in while they see the guard PCs on and avoid IC consequences. The guard will get even more sick and tired of it and Ban you from the city forever and I'll have no sympathy. Our community is not capable of such a "real feel" you are hoping for.

There is plenty ways to get some criminal RP to go on, will it need a DM? Sometimes yet. Another thing is 1 person against the city is stupid 99.9% of the time. Individual crimes are bad beans in this City. Look up Selgaunt, that city is a death trap for individual thieves. They rely on factions for their crimes. Cordor is the same way, if your an individual crime maker, you will most likely be caught and punished until being banned since its the only effective thing. Get some buddies, start a real Underground city community below Cordor ,(Where we already have such an area) get more people involved then propose to a DM what you wanna try and do.

And an example of some great criminal RP I seen before and someone undermining the guard. Someone joined the guard, had all his buddies commit crimes on his watch every now and then, he'd throw them all in jail get paid and then go with said buddies and have a beer while they milked the system.

During Ron's tenure as DM he dealt very closely with criminal RP, and has seen first-hand how it can work but mostly how it doesn't work. I've seen both, too, but he was the poor schmuck who most often had to deal with it.

I can safely say there's probably only been two groups/factions that have successfully pulled off criminal RP, but the fact is that they haven't done it consistently, but rather have fluctuated, sometimes being positive and sometimes being negative and the only difference really seemed to come down to individual players within the faction making their own decisions on what is right and wrong to do and ultimately exercising poor judgment.

Hence we return to the 2 things I said that are needed for it to ever work.

Burningoutbright wrote:

Also, Jess. I'm not sure what you want.

Mainly I wanted the opinions of players and DMs. Changes and arguments I threw out there were postulations to argue for and against. Possibilities that may or may not work.

Yossarin wrote:

Hence we return to the 2 things I said that are needed for it to ever work.

I wish I could be like you, Yoss. In every way. But I can't!

But in all seriousness, he's right. Criminal RPers are people who can't play like Yoss-- can't accept the consequences for their actions. The bottom line is that Yoss doesn't need to accept the consequences because he's so good at avoiding them. Just sayin.

Estara wrote:

Criminal RPers are people who can't play like Yoss-- can't accept the consequences for their actions.

I'm not sure if I should feel insulted or not now...

An alternative to consider, though Estara.

What if Yossarin can accept consequences because, in the greater scheme of fun RP:

- Success (well played) can bring great and wonderful RP.

- Failure and the resulting consequences (well played) can bring great and wonderful RP.

Win Win.

I admit, I am not like Yossi , much as I want to be in the ways that are relevant here. (Being an exact clone of someone's not so much fun). I strive to be though.. and really really would like to be.

I might be more optimistic, but it is possible for such RP to exist, and to exist for the enjoyment of all.

About a year ago I was playing Raz and I happened to step into the nomad for a drink. In the Nomad I happened into a girl who I will not name because it is not cool to expose criminals oocly. She offered to buy me a drink I accepted and had a pleasant little chat with her...until a took a sip of my drink and passed out. I awoke in the upstairs of the nomad she was searching threw my various satchels and boxes. I pm'd her telling her if she wishes I will tell her the things in my inventory. She said she would like that, so I give her a list of the things I had on me. Among those things was my journal. I sent her a pm saying if she wished I would let her read it she wanted to so I split everything I had into pages. Everything I knew (which was allot) She read in that journal. She then made her way to my coin purse. At the time I had something like two hundred thousand. I told her if she wanted she could take the gold. So she did. It was one of the most memorable and fun times I have ever had on this server. I think when things like this happen you should just roll with it. Another thing is I love playing criminals. Thats what Im good at. I am not a selfish person and I do not wish to make peoples experience on this server a bad one. I am perfectly willing to have my character imprisoned interrogated tortured and even perma killed if the situation called for it. I do agree if you cant deal with the consequences of in character actions then you have no business playing a criminal. But if you are heading threw the bad part of town and you get mugged its your own damned fault.

BrainSplitter wrote:

So your ideal Thief RP is to instill in other people whom play the video game a sense of fear (a negative emotion) of losing things they likely percieve as having worked for? And what's your response to people whom wouldn't find this enjoyable, hm? Is the Thief's enjoyment the only operative factor? As long as the Thief gets to RP his Thief stealing things (which, I'll add, involves taking things from other players and instilling a directly negative effect upon them), irrespective of the other player's enjoyment?

So what if it's just some gold. If the opposing player gets annoyed by the loss, and your only justification is 'I'm a Thief', well... You're really playing it shallow. The Taking portion of it makes it significantly more severe than anything else. Even PvP, when you kill someone, the most you're doing is maybe wasting their time a little.

This is the kind of attitude why Amia doesn't get off its collective ass and take some risks to reach new levels of awesome, IMO. Wow, fear is a negative emotion? I wasn't aware that there were such things as "negative emotions." I thought the thrill of RP was to experience the whole range of human emotions through your character. I know nothing better than the adrenaline of a very real threat, whether it's getting mugged or destroyed politically. Any OOC immunity would completely ruin that.

People who "wouldn't find this enjoyable" need to avoid it IC and grow a pair if it does happen. This walking on eggshells for a few pussies who can't take the heat is the singlemost disappointing thing about Amia. You can claim you're defending "everyone's fun" and facilitating all tastes equally, but in reality you make a choice. A sandbox and a dynamic world can't coexist. I'd rather we chose the latter. We can start by drastically reducing the OOC safety nets currently in place.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Awful thread, awful arguments from the non-crime people. Just awful.

Yossarin wrote:

Crime RP sans a DM cannot flourish on Amia until two things happen simultaneously:

- Everyone becomes willing to be victimized.
- Everyone becomes willing to be OOC'ly compassionate when they victimize someone else, instead of going into mean extremes such as griefing and all of the other "bad things".

Simple. However, can players do this?

Derangedminor wrote:

About a year ago I was playing Raz and I happened to step into the nomad for a drink. In the Nomad I happened into a girl who I will not name because it is not cool to expose criminals oocly. She offered to buy me a drink I accepted and had a pleasant little chat with her...until a took a sip of my drink and passed out. I awoke in the upstairs of the nomad she was searching threw my various satchels and boxes. I pm'd her telling her if she wishes I will tell her the things in my inventory. She said she would like that, so I give her a list of the things I had on me. Among those things was my journal. I sent her a pm saying if she wished I would let her read it she wanted to so I split everything I had into pages. Everything I knew (which was allot) She read in that journal. She then made her way to my coin purse. At the time I had something like two hundred thousand. I told her if she wanted she could take the gold. So she did. It was one of the most memorable and fun times I have ever had on this server. I think when things like this happen you should just roll with it. Another thing is I love playing criminals. Thats what Im good at. I am not a selfish person and I do not wish to make peoples experience on this server a bad one. I am perfectly willing to have my character imprisoned interrogated tortured and even perma killed if the situation called for it. I do agree if you cant deal with the consequences of in character actions then you have no business playing a criminal. But if you are heading threw the bad part of town and you get mugged its your own damned fault.

And you went out of your way to provide fun, mature RP, and rolled with it. Kudos.

I have recently created a rouge character, and TBH i look forward to being "caught" out for things i plan and do, its fun either way i think, and well i guess it makes it more thrilling.

I say reward can only be measure by by the loss and struggle to obtain it !

in-fact once i have immersed myself more in the seedy underworld that Amia certainly already had i will be hoping to plan a number of "fun" and profitable jobs such as steeling valuable trophy's from the Wilton keep or perhaps the idol of "some god" that i will auction to the highest bidder.

Or just a classic BnE team

I cant weight to get things like this rolling, and imagine if i got caught, the thrill of the shackle and the noose, the trial and perhaps a chance to get broken out, or bribe a guard, who knows or perhaps like others in the past my character will hang swaying in the wind after a whirlwind of tom foolery and scalawag behavior . !\

Long live Sammy, i mean Barry i mean loris i mean Tommy i mean >.<

"spare some cutter me brother !"

I'm just going to outright and say it.. Since I play a character who does rob people and RP it.. I'm pretty insulted by the blanket statements that all thieves and criminal players "Can't play and can't accept the consequences". It is an insult and yes this thread is getting dumb. My characters (most of them) has broken some kind of rules in Cordor most of the time outside the view of guards or through other means of intellectual crime. So with that said.. Since not everyone has played with me specifically I will just give you the benefit of the doubt but say have an open mind people! No I won't say what characters because that will ruin the fun.

I say perhaps a DM wants to oversee this specifically again?

Edit for grammer

Just as a note.. To every criminal and guard out there, I'm totally okay with being mugged and having my stuff taken away if I commit a crime. I have a favor of realistic RP and will happily try to make Amia more 'dynamic' than 'sandbox' in my own small way. Really, I think that is all we can do at this point. There are -far- too many who complain OOCly whenever something negative happens to their character due to another player. However, that doesn't necessarily have to ruin the fun for all of us. Just ask in Tells, which I'm sure you do, and you'll lure in players that you actually will enjoy RPing with for your Criminal/Justice RP instead of the mob of OOC whiners.

IronAngel wrote:

BrainSplitter wrote:

So your ideal Thief RP is to instill in other people whom play the video game a sense of fear (a negative emotion) of losing things they likely percieve as having worked for? And what's your response to people whom wouldn't find this enjoyable, hm? Is the Thief's enjoyment the only operative factor? As long as the Thief gets to RP his Thief stealing things (which, I'll add, involves taking things from other players and instilling a directly negative effect upon them), irrespective of the other player's enjoyment?

So what if it's just some gold. If the opposing player gets annoyed by the loss, and your only justification is 'I'm a Thief', well... You're really playing it shallow. The Taking portion of it makes it significantly more severe than anything else. Even PvP, when you kill someone, the most you're doing is maybe wasting their time a little.

This is the kind of attitude why Amia doesn't get off its collective ass and take some risks to reach new levels of awesome, IMO. Wow, fear is a negative emotion? I wasn't aware that there were such things as "negative emotions." I thought the thrill of RP was to experience the whole range of human emotions through your character. I know nothing better than the adrenaline of a very real threat, whether it's getting mugged or destroyed politically. Any OOC immunity would completely ruin that.

People who "wouldn't find this enjoyable" need to avoid it IC and grow a pair if it does happen. This walking on eggshells for a few pussies who can't take the heat is the singlemost disappointing thing about Amia. You can claim you're defending "everyone's fun" and facilitating all tastes equally, but in reality you make a choice. A sandbox and a dynamic world can't coexist. I'd rather we chose the latter. We can start by drastically reducing the OOC safety nets currently in place.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that BS might just be saying that to some it IS a negative emotion. Maybe not to everyone or to you, Iron, but to some it is. And if you're going to go into some details about how they shouldn't feel that way, well, talk to them. See how much you can change their mind! And then the DM or the player has to deal with that negative emotion recoil because some people really don't plan to ever lose things that they worked for in a game.

The point is this: Do you want to deal with the OOC drama of it? Or do you want to make a DM deal with the OOC drama of it?

Or do you just want to, as the criminal RPer, walk the higher road and figure out who would be willing to participate in the kind of RP you like and take it all out on them?

You know.. for all you who really want the hardcore freedom, there's even a thread for this kind of thing. But it shouldn't be widespread. It really shouldn't. Go here!: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49569

For me, fear is not a negative emotion. I am with Iron, and am a bit of a junkie about running the full gamut because I realize that the "fear" is only an illusion because the game is not real and nothing I've ever acquired or accomplished is sacred.

However, since some people don't feel that way, that is precisely why I noted Step 2 - the criminals players therefore have a responsibility to consider this while at best never having any OOC communication at all. It can be done.

Quote:

I'm just going to outright and say it.. Since I play a character who does rob people and RP it.. I'm pretty insulted by the blanket statements that all thieves and criminal players "Can't play and can't accept the consequences". It is an insult and yes this thread is getting dumb.

I don't believe that's been stated. I certainly didn't say it. My exact were that criminal RP will not proliferate or flourish until both criminal RP'ers and non-criminal RP'ers think about and treat criminal RP the right way.

Therefore, I am arguing in defense of criminal RP, not against it, and I'm just telling everyone what needs to be done if you want it to happen.

I think people get sore about losing items when no effort is put into stealing them.

The old Bioware Pick Pocket system is an excellent example of ruining thief RP for everyone. Takes hard earned items with little to no effort on the thief's behalf. You can understand how someone might get pissy at losing hard earned stuff with someone rping "Swipes the sword fast". Furthermore since Amia's population is a large percentage of epic characters, the ratio between catching a thief or not is quite a bit larger from lower levels. It's quite possible on Amia that a level 30 SD could get away with stealing a sword strapped tightly to someones back because they can get their rolls maxed at 110 or so. Where as in the lower levels, 20 and under, the ratio between a high skill roll and a low skill roll isn't as large, so such things aren't as likely.

It comes down to the fact that you can max your skills out to easily on Amia, and thus get away with extraordinary thefts without severely ruining your thieves performance. It's not fair to ask other classes however to run around with spot and listen gear sets at all times.

//I apologise if that sounds all over the place. It's 5am. I'm going to bed.

I agree with all of Yoss's posts. And Burningoutbright also had some very good points.

Thus far the most interesting, intense experiences I've had on this server were encounters that I barely survived, and fun, interesting RP with people who were genuinely good at it.

My most uninteresting moments on the server were grinding for experience and standing around in the square, listening to angsty emoting that was being passed off as RP.

I think a problem the server has is that it doesn't seem comfortable with its identity. Is it an RP server? Then why are there WoW-style killing grounds where monsters respawn rapidly? Is it an action server? Then why does everyone give so much lip service to RP?

There are a million guards everywhere. Why? There doesn't seem to be any need for them whatsoever, because there are so many OOC restictions on what can happen between players. Even a DM can't permakill a character? Really? Then why bother?

Bottom line, if there's no risk, there's no reward. And it's not a question of "I'm wired this way, you're wired that..." If you think that the only way you can have fun in a game is by powergaming your way up to the be the best and have all the best loot and have no chance that anything bad is ever going to happen to your imaginary guy or his giant pile of imaginary stuff, then you are not mature enough to play on a REAL RP server. -IMO-

VinceKlortho wrote:

I think a problem the server has is that it doesn't seem comfortable with its identity. Is it an RP server? Then why are there WoW-style killing grounds where monsters respawn rapidly? Is it an action server? Then why does everyone give so much lip service to RP?

Vince has his finger on a major point here with identity, something that deserves its own dialogue, but it is a dialogue we've had for so long now and over so many things and it continues to break down and fail. I have come to secretly blame lack of solid leadership somewhere.

Crime and Punishment: What is criminal RP on Amia?

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