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what would be the most weakest build ever? It could'nt do anything and it would suck in battle.
low ac, low damage, low hitpoints and low hit chance

Fighter 1, Wizard 29.

10 str
8 dex
8 con
8 wis
8 int
18 cha + 7 for level ups.

(( Or however the math works out for stats. ))

Last edited by TeroSNS on Thu, Oct 28 2010, 12:08 PM, edited 1 time in total.

why did you add that 1 level of fighter?

To gimp the INT. Otherwise you'd start at 11 INT and have access to level 1 spells.

A question i've been nagging Selvec to ask in his request. Now posting here.

Monkey grip.
Do you keep the 1.5STR modifier, Or do you loose it, when you get monkey-grip?

........

would you guys recommend 30 wizard or 29/1 rouge?

I have no comment on wut derk said, why would you cha on a wizard, or fighter...why?!

TeroSNS wrote:

what would be the most weakest build ever? It could'nt do anything and it would suck in battle.
low ac, low damage, low hitpoints and low hit chance

This is why. Learn to read, please.

-_- yes I saw the part about weakest build. due to the wizard 29 that ain't it. just wondered why charisma...

Glyph wrote:

-_- yes I saw the part about weakest build. due to the wizard 29 that ain't it. just wondered why charisma...

Did you notice that his INT is too low to cast spells????

That's probably why the CHA.

I've been thinking about playing a Ranger (with that new, cool-looking pet: Funnel-web Spider). I plan to make an existing character (Wood Elf) become one, though I'm unsure of how to turn it into one. Asking around, I received the same suggestions from various people:

Ranger 25/Fighter 4/Rogue 1
...or at least I think that's how it goes... I assume I take all twenty-five levels of Ranger first before touching the others?

Anyway, is this something that would be considered decent?

Quote:

Define decent...

Something I could use to loot grind through various areas, like Brogendestein winterlands and so forth. So mainly, a PvM build. The weapon(s) of choice would be handaxe.

I would really love to make this character what some call a "Spot-whore." Never had one before. But if it's not possible on a Wood Elf, that is fine.

Very_Svensk wrote:

A question i've been nagging Selvec to ask in his request. Now posting here.

Monkey grip.
Do you keep the 1.5STR modifier, Or do you loose it, when you get monkey-grip?

*Barump*
Anybody knows?

I'm about 95% sure you do not keep the modifier.

You keep it. I say this every time it comes up. no, it's not fixable, for the same reason you cannot 2 hand a medium weapon by exploiting it in the reverse way.

CTX wrote:

I've been thinking about playing a Ranger (with that new, cool-looking pet: Funnel-web Spider). I plan to make an existing character (Wood Elf) become one, though I'm unsure of how to turn it into one. Asking around, I received the same suggestions from various people:

Ranger 25/Fighter 4/Rogue 1
...or at least I think that's how it goes... I assume I take all twenty-five levels of Ranger first before touching the others?

Anyway, is this something that would be considered decent?

Quote:

Define decent...

Something I could use to loot grind through various areas, like Brogendestein winterlands and so forth. So mainly, a PvM build. The weapon(s) of choice would be handaxe.

I would really love to make this character what some call a "Spot-whore." Never had one before. But if it's not possible on a Wood Elf, that is fine.

Mosh and Uncle will smite me for this, but anything over 23 works. If you want the most awesome spot, Ranger 30 nets you that against favoured enemies. 25/4/1 is the best build in terms of AC, damage etc, but as long as you have BoE, everything is decent.

Last edited by IronAngel on Thu, Oct 28 2010, 20:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.

If I go paladin, there's no reason not to go pure, is there? As much as I'd love to tumble-dump, I'm not sure if this PC is ascetic enough to dip into Monk. I guess Paladin/CoT is the bosskiller variation, but for most PvM it's best to go pure, yes?

Paladins are buff enough to do just fine pure. Besides, if you crossclass Tumble, you'd only lose 3 AC, and Divine Shield'll make up for that. My original PC didn't have a Tumble or Evasion class (go figure which god they followed), but the sheer AB and damage they had more than made up for it.

How do you build one anyway? I mean, what base stats would you use?

Str 15
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

Bring Str to 16 and the rest in Cha, or more Str? I have no idea. Human, of course.

Well it depends if you are shooting for Dev crit or not. The normal everyday Paladin seems to aim for max str, 14 wisdom, and 16 chrisma if possible and let the other stats suffer.

Edit: Also... you don't need to dip into monk. You can always dip into rogue for tumble dumps.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Well it depends if you are shooting for Dev crit or not. The normal everyday Paladin seems to aim for max str, 14 wisdom, and 16 chrisma if possible and let the other stats suffer.

Pretty much this. If you're not bothered about Dev Crit, then getting your Charisma to 16-18 and then putting the rest into Strength works fine. 10 INT + human race skill bonus will let you take Discipline and crossclass Tumble, if that's all you want. IKD is always important, but less so when your AB's already going to be some of the highest possible, so you'd likely get away with not taking it and just going for a Ring of the Ram.

IDK is nice and all but I have never found it to be 100 percent needed. You can honestly survive without it just fine, that is much more true with the new dev crit as well.

I guess Dev Crit would be one way to go about it. I figured if you go Charisma, you should really go Charisma and get it into the 36-40 range. Divine Shield + Might seem pretty underwhelming if it's just some 8 round duration.

If I go for the Str build with Dev Crit, I guess I should take 4 levels of fighter.

IronAngel wrote:

I guess Dev Crit would be one way to go about it. I figured if you go Charisma, you should really go Charisma and get it into the 36-40 range. Divine Shield + Might seem pretty underwhelming if it's just some 8 round duration.

If I go for the Str build with Dev Crit, I guess I should take 4 levels of fighter.

I agree with you in that regards. My newest character, who happens to be a Paladin, is Charisma based with Divine Might + Divine Shield. Hes going to be a epic smiter as well, so he is completely built around his Charisma and has forgone even considering doing Dev Crit.

Last edited by IronAngel on Thu, Oct 28 2010, 21:18 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Sacrificing Strenght will mean cruddy AB, though, which is why I'm a bit hesitant. Paladins don't seem to get great AB anyway, because they lack the feats, don't have any special AB-boosting tricks and can't afford to focus in one attribute like typical tanks might. I'm not sure what Sune means with some of the highest AB around, because all I'm seeing is average fighter. Sure there's a few short term buffs, but nothing you couldn't get off scrolls and partybuffs anyway, save for that one-shot minute of Divine Favor.

There's really three ways to go about it. Dev Crit, Smite Evil or just balance. Dev Crit has little Charisma, basically fighter-esque builds that use the paladin buffs to give them an edge and a Divine Shield short buff. Ultimately, they're built for boss runs and PvP. Smite Evil focus have quite a bit less AB and a lack of any need for mythal saving throw gear, though it tends to do better with a few CoT levels in epic for extra Great Smiting feats. A balanced build's been described already.

If I were to rebuild my paladin, I'd go with a Charisma build. The lack of having to swap to saving throw gear all the time is awesome, and it performs well in both PvP and PvM, as long as you don't run out of Smite Evil uses.

IronAngel wrote:

Sacrificing Strenght will mean cruddy AB, though, which is why I'm a bit hesitant. Paladins don't seem to get great AB anyway, because they lack the feats, don't have any special AB-boosting tricks and can't afford to focus in one attribute like typical tanks might.

Paladins gain Bless, Aid, Prayer, Divine Favour, GMW and 1/1 BAB. Their AB rocks.

Oh true, but your typical WM will have all those running in a party anyway, save for the Divine Favor which I can cast once or twice at 30.

If going Charisma-heavy isn't a bad idea, then I think I prefer that to the strength builds. I've done a WM already, anyhow.

Edit: 25/5 Paladin/CoT sound good?

Yeah

What PaladinOfSune just said. Pallies have some of the best ab in the game, that is why you -can- go all out Charisma smiter builds. Your ab will still be around a solid 45 ab normally and 55+ when smiting.

One thing that does help as well though is getting CoT levels, it gives you access to some very useful abilities that work well with Charisma based characters.

IronAngel wrote:

Oh true, but your typical WM will have all those running in a party anyway, save for the Divine Favor which I can cast once or twice at 30.

If going Charisma-heavy isn't a bad idea, then I think I prefer that to the strength builds. I've done a WM already, anyhow.

Edit: 25/5 Paladin/CoT sound good?

Well I have mine setup 18 Pally/2 Rogue/10 CoT. The Cot are pretty much all in epic so my Paladin ends with Epic Smite 8 or 9 I believe.

20 Paladin/10 CoT works. 26 Paladin/4 CoT is viable for a higher caster level and immunity to dispel (as well as the full +5 Divine Favour bonus), though you will lose out on a single feat from it. You could also go 23 Paladin/6 CoT/1 Tumbledump class (or 20 Paladin/8 CoT/2 Rogue I suppose), but you did say you weren't keen on it.

Anyway, a typical Paladin with a 30 STR has 43-44 AB without any AB buffs. Hardly unworkable.

IronAngel wrote:

How do you build one anyway? I mean, what base stats would you use?

23Paladin/6CoT - 1Rogue/Monk.

Versatile, All around, All Paladin slots, And only get's 1 Feat less than 20Paladin/10Cot.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

20 Paladin/10 CoT works. 26 Paladin/4 CoT is viable for a higher caster level and immunity to dispel (as well as the full +5 Divine Favour bonus), though you will lose out on a single feat from it. You could also go 23 Paladin/6 CoT/1 Tumbledump class (or 20 Paladin/8 CoT/2 Rogue I suppose), but you did say you weren't keen on it.

Anyway, a typical Paladin with a 30 STR has 43-44 AB without any AB buffs. Hardly unworkable.

Full Divine favour bonus is lvl 20, Mind you.

'fraid not.

TormakSaber wrote:

That's how it's supposed to be. Ever seen Divine Favor Bioware style? 1/3 CL just like divine favor is 1/5 CL. 1-3 is 1, 3-5 is still 1. You don't get 2 until 6, then 3 at 9, 4 at 12, etc. Like here, you don't get 2 until 10. 15 is 3, 20 is 4, and 25 is 5.

Short answer: It was 'changed' because it made divine favor scrolls +2/+2 and that's broken.

Long answer: It was changed because of the above and because 1/5 is how spells actually tend to work, not the weird 1 + 1 thing.

I tried to build a 20/10 Great Smiter, but there's no getting 25+ Charisma before 28 on a regular human unless I gimp all my other stats. Oh well, need to think of something.

IronAngel wrote:

I tried to build a 20/10 Great Smiter, but there's no getting 25+ Charisma before 28 on a regular human unless I gimp all my other stats. Oh well, need to think of something.

Well... there is a human subrace that adds +2 charisma. It isn't a "normal" human like you wanted but it will get you that 25 Charisma before epic.

Human regional subraces are broken that way.

You could go:

14 Strength
8 Dexterity
8 Constitution
10 Intelligence
14 Wisdom
18 Charisma

The CON weakness isn't as bad as it seems, since you'll be gaining a d10 each level and your Fortitude'll rock with paladin saves. All the negative ability scores makes my eyes bleed though.

Maverick: Well, I do actually have a character concept in mind that I want to build around, not the opposite. And I'm afraid that concept isn't some weird Hindu new age exotica.

Aasimar is an option if all else fails, and it might be cool to interpret, but it's a tad too cliché.

I'll probably end up building an all-rounder after all. What's the optimal ending Str/Charisma on a balanced and versatile Paladin/CoT (with possibly a tumble-dump)? 24/16 or something?

Re: Sune's post above. Hmm, 14 Strength is so piss poor it saddens me, but I suppose it's still viable. He's a fat old man past his prime, so at least the negative modifiers would be appropriate.

I am personally a fan of:

16 Strength
8 Dexterity
10 Constitution
10 Intelligence
14 Wisdom
16 Charisma

Level up Charisma to 18, and rest in Strength, with one Great STR to make it 22. That way, you'll have a +10 score to your UMD, so you can put in 5 of the extra points you'll gain from the rogue level and have a 15 UMD score overall. You'll also have a base 30 Fortitude including buffed Charisma bonus, which is dead easy to get to 40.

If you want the tumble dump, 23 Paladin/6 CoT/1 Rogue. Otherwise, I still say 26 Paladin/4 CoT.

IronAngel wrote:

I tried to build a 20/10 Great Smiter, but there's no getting 25+ Charisma before 28 on a regular human unless I gimp all my other stats. Oh well, need to think of something.

Devcrit and +9CHA Modifier get's you -VERY- Far

Dev Crit with that much Charisma isn't really viable without using Aasimar, Durpari or Tuigan though. All depends on the race Iron's going with.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I'm about 95% sure you do not keep the modifier.

TormakSaber wrote:

You keep it. I say this every time it comes up. no, it's not fixable, for the same reason you cannot 2 hand a medium weapon by exploiting it in the reverse way.

Always a 1 in 20 chance to fail, yeah?

Very_Svensk wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I tried to build a 20/10 Great Smiter, but there's no getting 25+ Charisma before 28 on a regular human unless I gimp all my other stats. Oh well, need to think of something.

Devcrit and +9CHA Modifier get's you -VERY- Far

Feel free to suggest something, then. A breakdown of feats and abilities would be nice. It looks good put like that, but whenever I tried something focused I ended up having to sacrifice a bit too much in other deparments. I'm certainly not using a regional subrace, though Aasimar might be doable. I think I'd rather go vanilla human, though.

Dev Crit fires rarely, succeeds even less so, and only comes into play at level 29 or something (which I'll never get, but it's nice to plan anyway). Even then, the difference it makes isn't realms-shaking. I seriously doubt it's worth the investment if it means losing most of the stuff Paladins are good at. No extra Smites, no bonus Turn Undead. Lower saves and weaker special abilities, just so I can do something a WM would do much better anyhow. I don't see the point in playing a paladin but not playing my strengths. Maybe that's because I've never played a paladin in high levels, though. I'm open to the idea if you can suggest a build that's better than those Charisma-heavy all-rounders we've been talking about.

Quote:

Dev Crit fires rarely, succeeds even less so, and only comes into play at level 29 or something (which I'll never get, but it's nice to plan anyway).

21

Epic skill focus tumble: Does it give you the 2AC or not?

Jack O'Bannon wrote:

Epic skill focus tumble: Does it give you the 2AC or not?

Nope. Only unmodified Tumble ranks count.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Well, I would start by making a level 8 Rogue.
Starting stats something like this. Tweaked a little depending on race. This is for a human, it would be a little easier with an elf or something else that gets +Dex.
14STR
16DEX (+7+2or3 Great Dexes) (Buff to 38)
8CON
10INT
14WIS
14CHA (Buff to 26)

Power Attack and Cleave early on to qualify for BG. Divine Might and SHield a little later when the BG levels are being taken. Weapon Finesse, Focus, Improved Critical inbetween...one more preepic feat, probably Blind Fight but maybe Extra Turning. No KD to put the sneaks to work but there is always Ring of the Ram.

In Epic 3xGreat Dex needed for 26 DEX, might settle for one less if you want another feat. Might seem a little gimped but with your Epic BG bonus feats and Ranger feat you can take Epic Focus and Armour Skin, and Epic Fiendish Servant - although tbh I don't know if that does anything if you get the book of vile darkness? You could take Prowess there instead maybe. Rogue bonus feats obviously Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll. Doesn't really matter how you get to 29, as long as youre 13/16 by then. 30th level is the 1 Ranger, thats when you get Epic Dodge.

It's missing Epic Fortitude and Epic Skill foci.... but the AC should be pretty rediculous, with 38DEX, Divine Shield and the option of using a tower shield...60s,70 at a stretch? AB not bad either, high 40s, low 50s? Can't be arsed working it out. Damage great, Sneak +12d6(?) to go with Divine Might and all the other standard BG stuff. Lots of skills too, only 10 INT but all those 8 skill points from the Rogue levels give a human the chance to max 6 skills - Tumble, UMD, Discipline, perhaps Hide/MS, Spot...although I'd be tempted by Taunt. And by ending as Ranger you get to put 33 points in a lot of those. And of course with Dark Blessing the saves are going to be great. Pretty awesome! Divine Might/Shield a little underpowered compared to some but thems the breaks if you want Epic Dodge. I played the Paladin equivalent but its the same deal more or less. Tempted to try it myself but I don't have a concept to tie the build to. One day, though. Muaha.

I don't suppose Epic Dodge is somehow possible with an ECL +1 race? -1 Ranger?

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, Oct 29 2010, 6:03 AM, edited 1 time in total.

you can get epic dodge with 20 rouge pretty easily, or via SD or monk for the pre-requsites/some of them, for free. however from the top of my head I can't help, other than start at 18 dex, buff each level, should hit 25 at around level 28...without great dex's.

something like 26/3 so the feats show up at the right times. or just 29 rouge.

on a similar note no one said anything about my last question, pure wizard or 29/1 with a rouge level??

(maximised DC vs use magic devices for rp and also a few more weapons, again for rp. would also buff tumble but AC is not important...tumble itself could be since zero ac clothes though.)

I did think ze charisma rather than int on the weak build might have been that but...well its just overkill xD basically makes it a level 1 fighter with a famliar.

ed: I nearly missed the above build, would need some tweaking to work for an ecl +1 but i'm pretty sure epic dodge is doable.

ed2: got as far as rouge 10/ blackguard 16, 3 more rouge, but no epic dodge. you need improved evasion and defensive roll, so I think you would need to lose the epic savant =( if you want the 1 ranger at all would be 9 blackguard I think. *tests more*

Wizard levels have absolutely nothing to do with spell DC. 29 Wizard/1 Rogue is better than 30 Wizard in pretty much every way.

Rosencrantz, how easy you find Epic Dodge to get will depend on the subrace for +1 ECL you pick. The ranger level isn't necessary, but you're already giving up a ton of feats for all those Great DEX as is. Not taking ranger and losing out on level 30 will cost you another two feats.

Hrm.. What about an Unseelie Feytouched?

+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con

this ones stumped me, you need 13 rouge for the feats you need for epic dodge, 16 BG for the epic savant, and the final level for epic dodge, unless you can get it as a blackguard feat...

also you need alot of tumble so its one of those last few levels if at all.

Rosencrantz wrote:

Hrm.. What about an Unseelie Feytouched?

+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con

If you went Feytouched, then you could take this instead:

14STR
18DEX
8CON
10INT
14WIS
12CHA (increased to 14 through feytouched stats)

Which will ease up on the Epic Dodge requirements. Mind you, it's not actually a gain in power - you need two less Great DEX to get to 26 Dexterity, but you'll gain two fewer feats from the lack of 30 and Ranger. If you really want to RP a feytouched though, go ahead, it's not too different than the plain flavour elf build.

If i was going the all rounder pally it would be starting with

15strength 16cha or vice versa and i would not bother taking the great feat, and invest those extra two points in Int for the purpose of nabbing some more skills. Taunt is actually pretty damned useful.

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