Honestly, I don't thonk this question deserves its own thread but I'm also unsure if its proper to put in any other thread. Advice as to where to put something like this next time would be great.

What happens when a LG Paladin of Hoar and a LE Blackguard of Hoar meet?

Or the same with Helm... LG Paladin and LE Blackguard.. Assuming they're in nuetral territory with no laws.

_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

I didn't know Helm had Blackguards...

_________________
Characters:
Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues
Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia

I don't know for sure, either..

But he accepts LE? I figure that means he does. But I'm hardly a Lore nut.

_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Maybe they do.
Uphold the law by all means, And state grim examples of what happens if you dont.

Hell, helm even killed Mystra for trying to break the laws and get into the astral realm during times o troubles. That, if anything, is stating a GRIM Example.

Edit - The Means justify the End, Sort of.

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Helm killed Mystral, her avatar became Mystra.

_________________

Mystryl killed herself to stop Karsus. Muuuuch later, Helm killed Mystra (a fluke, a flux in the Weave, nothing happened here. Really.) The third incarnation of the goddess of magic surely won't get killed by anyone, though.

_________________
Playing:
Marcus Valis

Why is that..?

Wait! That's not even my question!

_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Mystral..
Mystryl
Myrkul
Mystra

One of them died by helm stating example.

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I've always been of the opinion that deities such as Helm are more interested in their followers upholding the Law, than them acting either good or evil. If two followers of the same god would meet, even if one was good and the other evil, I personally don't think it would come to trading blows. At least not between followers of a lawful deity. They may despise each other, but not much more beyond that.

As for the other discussion, Mystra was killed by Helm during the Time of Troubles. Midnight later became the new Mystra. Mystril, like was stated above, killed herself after Karsus cast the Karsus Avatar spell.

I'll just shut up now.

_________________

And Illmatar thinks -he's- a martyr...

Anyways. To add a new layer here.. In any of our wildest fantasies would these BG/Paladins work together..?

Perhaps to uphold the law of some nuetral town... Or to avenge someone.

_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

It depends on the characters and their backgrounds and the situations under which they meet.

Questions like this are loaded. There's no coverall answer. Ever.

I do not think so. A paladin is forbidden to work with evil.

_________________
Playing:
Marcus Valis

Well since they can't detect evil (or they can, but permission can be denied I think? and even if they couldn't, it's like a level 1 spell to counter it), it's up to whether or not the BG and the Pally are willing to cooperate. I'd say it can be done, given a proper enemy to unite against. Evil fights evil all the time, and a BG dedicated to the ideal of Evil probably isn't too bothered with helping just one paladin as long as they personally don't have to do a lot of good along the way, provided they still have the same end goal of sufficient importance.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

1) That's a "general" rule for paladins. And "general" rules are often subject to exception by dogma. Especially in the case of a deity that allows both LG and LE.

2)Usually, they're forbidden to knowingly work with someone currently committing evil acts.

I could completely see Hoar sending a Paladin and Blackguard on a mission to avenge some wrong. That's not to say the paladin won't fall if the stays by and remains quiet while the BG summons undead needlessly or commits evil acts for the sake of evil. Which is a double whammy because it would be against even the most loose of paladin guidelines and as well is against widely accepted Hoarite dogma(Not the needlessly raising undead thing, but acting evil for the sake of evil).

As for using Detect Evil, it's a cop out. A paladin that has to rely on Detect Evil to sense if someone's a tricky evil bastard ain't making good use of his Wisdom.

Don't paladins of Jergal work with undead that have been sanctioned by the church, at least for a very limited amount of time? Not sure where I read that. I could of just made it up. *shrugs* If it's true, I think it would be along the same lines as that.

_________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
-Socrates

...Would a blackguard fall for doing good with a paladin?

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

Last I checked it's not so limiting Dark, Paladin , Evil, not working together knowingly.

I could be wrong though, but I don't imagine the circumstances where they would be working together are common or relatively stable affairs.

Iirc doesn't helm's paladin group get bonuses vs chaos instead of evil? I don't have my books with me here at work to double check.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

If it's something involving the dogma then, of course. If you're a paladin, and the BG is of your faith and has the same goal of doing something involving your faith as you, then why not? It's a matter of doing something for your faith that your god has called you to. You and your fellow clergyman man have different methods, but as long as he doesnt cross certain lines, it's manageable. Don't expect either of them to be crazy about the idea though.

But if it's some regular joe shmoe who's evil for the hell of it and the mission doesn't involve your faith at all, and you might even be able to do it on your own, then I wouldn't see the need for it. Like treasure hunting with a palemaster. It would ICly show that you hold wealth higher than moral standards. Which would be grounds for falling, in my book.

Helm would not have blackguards, as he would not have fiendish servants. Hoar might, though, since his domain is on the Barrens.

_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

It sounds like a scenario I would love to role-play.

_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

How so?

In terms of serving a particular diety that supports a wide range of followers in the lawful spectrum, there would be little chance unless the person involved had a major change of heart. It's the means by which they serve the forces of law that would be the defining factor.

For instance, followers of Kelemvor can be either good or evil, and most likely very lawful. As Kelemvor supports both LG and LE, a blackguard of Kelemvor is a possibility, only the methods of upholding Kelemvors ideals would differentiate the BG and paladin is His service. While a paladin would balk at using torture to gain information, the blackguard would readily do so and use the fear of such to his advantage.

So, serving the same diety would not provoke a fall for either, but the actions taken might. In any case, it should always be easier for a paladin to fall than a blackguard.

_________________
Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Just because they belong in the same church, doesn't mean they'd be friends.

The LE would be willing to do alot more worse things than the LG one.

The main difference would be inner thoughts.

If Both the LG and the LE had to torture someone(WHich in case of Hoar, the retribution must exactly fit the crime ie if you got tortured you MUST torture them back), the LG would not smile and feel good doing it, the LE would laugh and mentally enjoy it.

regarding detection of evil, other classes get counters to it, and even then it takes three rounds. i'm not answering any more *are you evil* tells =D do it right.

as for the hoar thing, if they know they are a blackguard yea theres gunna be a clash, but if they are just an evil rouge or something, lawful evil monk even, should take more time to realise at the very least, if not for the 'greater good' to team up, and that way the paladin would see any evil acts, and thusly smite them as duty dictates.

ed: I don't know what everyones opinion of this one is but I don't think the paladins view of evil should be solely based on the alignment chart.

Find a bard willing to cast undetectable alignment. Most paladins don't drop a dispel before making the attempt to detect evil anyways.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Or just refuse it, since it is a dumb ability meant for tabletop games.

_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Unless it is a DM event, in which you do not get a choice to decline or not.

To answer the question set forth in the post: IF the Paladin ever became aware or had reason to suspect the Blackgurd was, in fact, evil ad a blackguard, he would be oathbound to dismiss his company or lose Paladin powers.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I disagree. A paladin of Hoar could very well enjoy seeing someone get what they deserve. They're doing exactly what their god wants them to do. If they don't take joy in what their god takes joy in, then there's probably a disconnect. Not saying all of them are ecstatic about chopping off the hands of thieves, but the fact they've carried out dogma should give them at least some good feeling. Otherwise, why are they a paladin?

IMO, they acknowledge eachother and tolerate eachother's existence, and they won't actively work against eachother in matters of the church. However, they will have nothing to do with eachother and will go their seperate ways. Now if they were ordered to work on the same mission by a legitimate superior who was in divine favor, and the paladin found no help from his god when he asked for advice... Well, I have no idea. Depends on the DM/person making the call, but IMO obedience to your faith takes priority and you do what you're told if you can't find a good way out of it.

This is a generalization, and there's always an exception to everything. That really boils down to DM consideration, though.

_________________

It's exactly that attitude that makes paladins here so very un-paladin like. People seem to forget that in this setting there IS black and white...for creatures...and actions as well. The same way a devil cannot be NOT evil, a paladin should not be EVIL, and be allowed to do evil simply because you as a player interpret it as good.

If a paladin relishes and enjoys another beings suffering, they are evil, plain and simple...not "doing the gods work", or any other other excuses justify it. Were I a DM and saw ANY paladin laughing at something else's suffering, they'd be automatically fallen IMO.

Also note that many paladins/clerics sometimes disagree with their gods wishes....they do it anyways if they truly follow said deity....and in ay book you'd read...the most fervent undeniably worshipping clerics/paladins who question nothing of their gods...are the villains or become the villain in some manner.

_b

My answer of choise.

_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Oh yes, I agree with 762 too. Not just any neutral deity can have Blackguards, because not just any neutral deity has Evil Outsiders working for them. And having friendly contact with one is a prerequisite of becoming a Blackguard.

Also, boobookittyscrew: I'd rather not turn this topic, too, into a discussion on paladin alignment. I've repeated the same points over and over again, but you can find a recent and thorough explanations some months back in this forum. In a nutshell: there's no "black and white" in morality. Those are colors. In the Realms, there are forces called Good and Evil. Their relevance to actual character ethics is indirect. The reality of the Realms is extremely "gray" and complex as far as D&D settings go. No one is or does pure good or evil, not even the gods. It's completely unscientific to say that relishing in another being's suffering is always evil: you can't possibly have exhausting empirical evidence of this, so it'd be better not to make conclusive empirical statements.

Dark Immolation's point is very valid: if a paladin believes he delivers righteous revenge, why couldn't he feel good about it? But them, I'm personally inclined to say that Hoarran paladins do not revel in revenge but rather emphasise poetic justice, teaching a lesson sooner than exacting mindless punishment. It seems some people take Hoar as an example of a controversial deity that sponsors paladins, and then choose the more extreme aspects of his portfolio to show how his paladins act. No, that's a poor approach. Rather you should see how you could interpret the god's dogma in as Lawful and Good a way as possible, and emphasise that. Yes, Hoar is seen as a merciless god of revenge in the east around Chessenta. But in the north and west, he's often portrayed as the humorous god of poetic justice. That's the aspect paladins of Hoar are likely to worship. Not the cruel Lord of Three Thunders. Anything is possible, of course, but we should remember the norm is not extremity.

_________________

Oh. This doesn't directly answer your question any better than my first post, but it's what I wrote about Paladins of Hoar in general:

Paladins of Hoar

Hoar is a dark, vengeful deity of retribution and poetic justice. Balancing between the influences of Tyr and Shar, and dealing with Beshaba to bestow bad luck upon the deserving, the Doombringer seems an ill-fit patron for paladins. Yet there are those who brave this narrow path and earn a fearsome reputation as uncompromising paragons of justice.

In Chessenta and the southern lands, Hoar is known as Assuran, the god of vengeance. Two temples, The Thunderous Hand of Vengeance in Akanax and the Amphitheater of the First Thunder in Mourktar, rival for leadership of the faith. Paladins from this region are uncommon, but are likely to swear fealty to either one of the temples and act as the priesthood's swordarm to mete out just punishment. In western and northern Faerûn, however, Hoar is considered to be more concerned in poetic justice and fitting punishment rather than vengeance. There, his worship is scattered and the only notable temple is the Hidden Hand of Fate in Archendale. Paladins from these regions are more common, and often act without the strict guidance of the clergy.

It is the Hoarites' duty to learn of injustice and repay it in full. Hoarite paladins often track down wanted villains, but refuse to collect the bounty unless it can be used as fitting compensation for the wronged party. Enacting justice is reward enough for the paladins. Feared and disliked as they are by many less-than-innocent people, they are often the only hope poor folks have of repaying those who've wronged them; whereas bounty-hunters demand gold and local authorities may not find evidence enough to press charges, the Hoarites will listen to the most wretched beggar, assess the truth of the account and decide the most fitting way to enact retribution.

Hoar instructs his followers to uphold the spirit of the law over that of the letter. After catching a criminal, a Tyrran paladin will take the captive for trial in the city where the crime was committed, if at all possible. A Hoarite, however, may suspect the captive will weasel his way free of any charges with his knowledge of local legislation. To make sure justice is done, he will simply administer whatever punishment is fitting on the spot. This has gained Hoarites the reputation of vigilantes, and the disapproval of many town watches and Tyrrans.

As instruments of poetic justice, paladins of Hoar are not without a sense of humour. Hoar teaches that revenge is at its sweetest with an edge of irony. While evil clerics of Hoar might think highly of the irony in feeding to the wolves someone who beat their dog, his paladins aim for punishments that teach a lesson but still compensate the crime committed. Violence will meet violence, but a paladin should avoid excessive violence whenever the foe's offence does not outright demand it. A greedy landowner who's kept his underlings in hunger would be better served with a task of sowing the fields, reaping the harvest and baking bread for his servants, rather than starving him to death; something a more malicious Hoarite might opt to do. On a similar note, retribution has two aspects: punishing injustice, for certain, but also rewarding good deeds. While far from charity workers, Hoarite paladins do their best to give suitable rewards to those they witness doing the just and right thing. If someone offers a room in their home for a travelling Hoarite to rest in, the paladin might later invite the family to spend a few nights in a fine inn in the nearby city, at his expense.

Paladins of Hoar are in a difficult position in their church, because some Hoarites are evil and even their neutral brethren may enact cruelties that would enrage many a goodly faith. Hoar's dogma speaks of an eye for an eye, and his paladins consider it a strict commandment that ensures fairness, whereas some others interpret the maximum severity of punishment more liberally. Especially in powerful temples, church hierarchy is established and paladins might end up subservient to evil clerics. That's one reason paladins are uncommon in southern lands where the rule of the church is stronger. Hoarite paladins in the Heartlands and the North are often loners who interact little with the rest of the clergy. A paladin of Hoar will not fight an evil priest of Hoar, because he knows they both apparently have the deity's favour, whether he likes it or not. The paladin may debate matters of moral and dogma and try to persuade the clergy to condemn excessive cruelty, or simply avoid or refuse to work with the evil clergymembers, though. However, it's not unknown for Hoarite paladins to thwart the plans of Hoarite assassins and other lay members when they go too far. Such incidents occasionally cause strife within the church and set the extremes of the clergy at odds with eachother. Fortunately, the neutral medium is by far the strongest group and has so far managed to maintain balance and relative unity.

Hoar's dogma tells to answer evil with evil, and that ”those who do not respond to attacks against their person or that which they hold dear only invite further attacks” Mercy is a luxury for those who don't take the fight against injustice seriously. On the other hand, it's important to a paladin that something good also results from the punishment. The path of a Hoarite paladin in narrow and paradoxical indeed: excessive cruelty results in a fall from goodness but showing undue mercy at the expense of rightful retribution is a breach of their code just as well. Likewise, working against the church they are sworn to serve is unacceptable, but neither may they actively partake in evil deeds. There are certain practices in the church of Hoar that would seem blasphemous to paladins of deities such as Lathander or Kelemvor: sometimes the victim of violence or betrayal begs with his last breath for a chance to take revenge. A Doombringer of Hoar may grant that wish and raise the victim as a revenant, an undead whose only purpose is to take vengeance upon those who wronged him. Once the task is done, the revenant crumbles and the spirit passes on to afterlife. Similarly, Hoarites may command undead to turn against their creator and crumble once he is destroyed. Paladins of Hoar understand the grim irony and justice in such actions, allowing these undead to complete their task.

There are no actual paladin orders dedicated to Hoar. However, the Fellowship of Poetic Justices is an order of bards, paladins and crusaders of both Tyr and Hoar who seek to spread tales of ironic justice and fight injustice in ways more efficent than violence.

_________________

Helm is a fun deity. He CAN have evil followers.

And I also remember reading that some members of Helm's clergy of holy warriors are buried in OPEN coffins, so that they can be raised as undead guardians should the temple be attacked. This is only done when some sort of agreement is made where they swear to serve Helm even in death, and after they have been used to protect it, they are put back to rest in respect.

I'm going to poke around and find the source of it, just because I hate not remembering where I dig stuff up from. But I did research this when I made a character to pose as a helmite with his undead bodyguard. It worked surprisingly well. Hint hint Velsharans!


As for Hoar, I'm not completely sure, but I think he'd accept blackguards. And technically a LE and LG servant can fight side by side.. though a paladin.. It would be iffy I think. They'd be brothers/sisters in faith probably, but I'm not sure if it would be anything but that. Like that strange uncle you only see at christmas and sort of hope he's never comming. That's the LE blackguard of Hoar.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Yes, but that's not enough. Can he have evil Blackguards? He'd need Evil Outsiders to serve him and induct these Blackguards into his service.

_________________

Blackguards get their powers from an evil outsider, not a deity. So yes.. a blackguard can follow Helm as long as the fiend that gives him his powers is fine with it. He'd not get any blessings and such from Helm though, I think.. then again, neither would a non-holy follower of Helm.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

This is wrong, Grave. FRCS contradicts what you are claiming directly.

The powers could come from the lower planes instead of a deity, but it would take an archfiend or something of similar power to place them at a mortal's disposal.

In theory a BG worshiping Helm could make such an arrangement. But he would not be a BG of Helm. There is a distinction.

_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

What about Blackguards of bane.
They sure as hell get their divine powers from bane, And that's contradicting your contradiction!

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I said could.

_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

As far as I've always considered it, Paladin = Paragon.

By that, I mean that the Paladin's goal is to be a representation of their god's Good and Lawful aspects. Whatever that means, for better or for worse. As it's always been said, the paladin's god makes more of a difference than any blanket generalization of LG.



My paladin loves destroying demons and undead. And I don't mean that in the sense that she "loves her job". I mean caving in the face of a Mane or beating a Vampire into pulp and ash is on par with ecstasy to her. Both the drug and the sensation. It's an addiction to the point where it often scares her as well as others around her. It's literally in her blood.

By your reasoning, she'd be Evil, I believe.

Impossible:

_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Uh, it's not impossible. Scyllua Darkhope is a blackguard of Bane. Check FRCS.

_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

*Fist Pump*

Yes! Score for me! I Was right!

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

FRCS? Whats that?

I usually check the core rules and stuff that directly contradicts it needs to come from a proper source.

_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the 3.0 Forgotten Realms setting book.

I concur with what 762 says, having owned, read the book and also read particularly of Scylla.. (Who was indirectly an inspiration for Dmitria's last name. XD)

blackguards can SERVE evil deities but they make deals with fiends for their powers.

Regardless when I made my BG on Amia, I asked in the DM channel if they get their powers from a god or a fiend and I was told that it's given from a fiend. Though I was also told that if my BG for instance serves a powerful fiend like Anathraxus, the powers probably wouldn't come directly from him but from one or more of his servants.

Also...



After I looked over all the lore on blackguards I could find, I still wasn't sure if it was from a fiend, deity or both. I got told it was the first one when I asked.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Then I have found more lore on it than you have (which is not surprising, since I've researched the topic extensively and written an RP guide about it).

I suppose Amia could have its own house rules regarding such things (although I can't imagine a reason for going against canon on this particular point), but I think it's more likely the DM in question made an honest mistake. It is a popular misconception after all.

_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

I'd love to see the part directly from lore that says their powers come directly from a deity and NOT the fiends they serve/deal with, then.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

There's no house rule; you simply got told wrong.

We can all read that description, and it clearly states a prerequisite of friendly contact with an evil outsider. What this means is unclear, though: it could mean you strike a deal with that outsider and get your powers from him. It could mean the outsider is a mediator between you an a greater fiend. It could mean the outsider serves a deity who grants you your powers. Or it could just mean that you have to show your vileness by chatting with a demon, but I don't think that's the intention.

We know for a fact that Blackguards can get their powers from a god. This is a no-brainer, really: they get divine powers. (And there's Darkhope, for example. She is a Blackguard and a favored servant of Bane, no unclarity about that.) But we also know of many fiend cults, and the whole theme of Blackguards seems to be infernal pacts. I imagine we could also find canon NPCs that get their powers from fiends.

So I think it's pretty clear they can get their power from one source or the other. It is not quite clear whether this evil outsider you deal with has to serve the god you intend to get your powers from, but I that follows if we logically assume that this contact has the role of a mediator. That's why a Blackguard of Helm seems iffy: Helm probably doesn't have evil servants in the planes, so you couldn't contact one.

If you maintain that Blackguards can't get their powers from deities, Gravemaskin, your issue becomes nonsensical. You couldn't talk about Blackguards of Helm to begin with, unless you meant a Blackguard who happened to worship Helm as patron. But that's really trivial, because a Blackguard who got his powers from a devil could worship Torm or Selûne just fine, too. He wouldn't need any divine approval because he wouldn't be getting his spells from the gods anyway, so the whole question of alignment would become moot.

_________________