If you want 20 BG levels, why not Fighter8/Rogue2/Blackguard20 (8/2/10 @ 20), something like that? You can get 20 ranks in Tumble easy enough with some preepic Rogue levels, and plenty of UMD too. Or 9/2/19, to take EWS. Whether its worth forsaking the 1AB (From taking Rogue preepic) and 2 AC (From missing 10 ranks of Tumble)...depends what you're going to take on the 19BG bonus feat. I'm not sure it is.

Do yourself a favor and get thoose 14 wisdom! Sacrifice con sinstead. Especially with that many BG levels the additional spells are weh nice.

_________________
---
"Every time you play with fire, the fire plays with you.
and when you take the sword, the sword takes you, too."
Malle Malone

Keep your WIS at 14, you may as well just play an evil fighter if you have too low of a WIS to get all the cool BG toys. You can also drop that DEX down to 10. A Cat's Grace is worth a definite 2 pts. of DEX every time. That should let you keep a bit more CON and still have a 14 WIS.

_________________


"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Like others have said, drop your CON waaay down, and DEX to 10. If you don't have 14 WIS, you're really missing out on big BG perks. I'd also recommend you decreasing your DEX to 8 (if you can stand the penalty) so you can pick up 14 INT - IKD is worth it.

Regarding level spread, you don't need those many fighter levels, it's just a waste. You'd likely get more use out of a 10 Rogue/4 Fighter/16 Blackguard. You take your 4th fighter level in epic for Epic Weapon Specialisation. It gives just about enough feats for everything you'd like - Epic Fiend, IKD, Blind-Fight, Crippling Strike, not to mention puts out a huge amount of damage due to the 10d6 sneak attack on top of being a strength-based build. The main problem with the build is the lowered BAB, but Divine Favour + backup support from your epic summons means it won't be as big a problem as it could be. Deeper Darkness also works perfectly for this build.

On the other hand, if you really do want that many fighter levels, then 12 Fighter/16 BG/2 Rogue is going to be where you gain the most bonuses. You aren't lacking anything 17-18 BG can do, either.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Addendum.
If you're going with an UMD Class. DEX 8. Since You'll get Monk Sun Soul Boots, And they give +3. Then just add 1DEX on Some random Item, Or Drink pot.

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Yurells Choices

10 ftr / 20 BG (I presume this is possible?)
11 ftr / 19 BG (10/10 pre, grabbing EWS)
10 ftr / 19 BG / 1 rog (tumble/UMD dump)
10 ftr / 18 BG / 2 rog (not sure about this, since I lose the last epic bonus feat and 1d6 sneak attack).
11 ftr / 18 BG / 1 rog (10/10 pre, grabbing EWS + skilldump, same downside as above)
11 ftr / 17 BG / 2 rog (I don't think I'd lose anything I don't by cutting down to 18)

Ever thought about DEX based Blackguard/Rogue?
14Rogue/16BG. Epic Dodge? Your sneaks will be overkill.

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"if stats don't matter why not spend DC and be followed around by a flying ship"

oh trust me I would, but I do believe there are some rules about similarity between the actual summon and any requested change =) like I says I just want to know the options, not the stats, or even what exact creatures might appear. just like, the list of types.

ed: *testing if 10 fighter/20 blackguard can work. base +6 attack makes me think either or...*

ed2: fighter 7 minumum to get 5 hide (its a cross class skill) then I guess 10 BG, 3 more fighter, and the rest BG in epic.

What are you talking about?

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epic spells, summoning ones, and its changes, if they exist. if not then well, heck if I know where people are getting these things.

13Rogue/16BG/1Ranger. Free Epic Feat and Dual Wield. It's definetly the route I'd go for BG. But its a Finesse build, not right if you want a Bastard Sword.

Can STR monks have good AC?

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Free Epic feat from Ranger? That and Duel Weild the only reason for Ranger?

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Free epic feat, dual-wield, Trackless Step, and access to Discipline/Hide/MS/Spot on the same level. I wouldn't recommend a DEX-based BG, though. You need 13 STR to be able to access Blackguard in the first place, and you can't afford to waste those points when you already need DEX, WIS and CHA.

As for STR monks: if you make a build with base 10 WIS and DEX, with regular equipment, 20 Monk levels and Armor Skin, you'll end up with around 51 AC with your DEX/WIS stats capped at level 30. Not great for a monk, but still slightly better than the average WM build.

_________________

"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

I've been wanting to do a spellsword, for RP purposes, for a very long time. I love sorcerers, and I love rogues, but am also willing to go with fighter/sorc combo/. The rogue/sorc seems to be beckoning me. I'm not worried about being a damage cannon, but I'd like a character who can fend for him/herself, and he/she will most likely be in a party when they venture into danger.

Any siuggestions? Also, when I do get a suggestion I'd like to lay out a progression table; what feats to take when and what points to distribute when. Is there something out there that will do this for me, until I get used to doing it myself? I don't want to wait forever to implement my character idea, and if I have to depend on myself to figure out the progressions, it will be forever. Thanks!

_________________
I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

Sorc17/Cleric12/Rogue1 did very well in PvM. Don't know if its feasable after the divine favor and divine power changes.

21Wizard/7WM/2Rogue Could work
And doable, Due to all the extra Feats wizards get.

While you don't have awsome GS and stuff anymore, You do have Tensers(It's semigood) and if you focus in STR its ...Doable... Maybe.

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Might I suggest 25 Sorc/5 fighter. I did that with Nina and it's worked out pretty well. Allows a good deal of mobility too in being either ranged or melée support/ buff giver when working within a party dynamic. Only thing I may have changed is taking 1 level of either rogue or bard for tumble ranks instead of a straight up 5 fighter.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Ahoy, Janna.

I have a few suggestions for you. They are only sorcerer combinations, since I made them for myself to look at. Now you can too.

First up is the dual wielding sorcerer. Since a sorc doesn't get as many attacks as melee brutes, I have tried to make it worthwhile in combat, still having fine spells to play with.

21 Sorcerer/6 Fighter/2 Rogue
Race Used: Feytouched, since they get dex & cha bonus.

Human would be fine as well. If so, you are better off in some regards.. well, most.
You gain two extra feats, more skills, a character that doesn't look silly using medium weapons that doesn't scale with the wielders size and a whole more level, where you can add another rogue for the much needed uncanny dodge and +2d6 sneaks.

Using feytouched has its benefits as well of course.
In this build I suggest you use two small weapons, like shortsword, handaxe or even tiny weapons like dagger or kurkri. As long as they fit the weapon finesse weapons, you are good.

Str: 10
Dex: 17-22
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 18-20

AB: 46 ~ 44 dual wield (46 with a trinket easily obtainable)
AC: 65 ~ 60 dual wield
HP: 185 unbuffed

Skills:
Heal 16 or whatever you like. Appraise is dandy.
Tumble 30
Spellcraft 30
Discipline 32
Concentration 32
Use Magic Device 19

Spells:
1: Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Grease, Endure Elements/Magic Missile
2: Bulls Strength, Cats Grace, Endurance, See Invisibility, Flame Weapon
3: Negative Energy Burst, Vampiric Touch, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste
4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility, Ice Storm, Fire Shield/Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm
5: Energy Buffer, Lesser Mind Blank, Mestil's Acid Sheath, Greater Shadow Conjuration/Bigby's Interposing Hand
6: Tenser's Transformation, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, Mass Haste
7: Power Word: Stun/Great Thunderclap (BoT it for 20d6 damage, no SR on that one, but eek.. ref save), Spell Mantle, Shadowshield
8: Greater Sanctuary, Premonition, Blackstaff
9: Timestop, Mordekainen's Disjunction, Summon Monster X
10: Epic Mage Armor

1 Rogue - Feat: Toughness, Sneak +1d6
2 Sorc
3 Sorc - Feat: Extend Spell
4 Sorc - Cha: 19
5 Sorc
6 Sorc - Feat: Empower Spell
7 Sorc
8 Sorc - Cha: 20
9 Sorc - Feat: Maximize Spell
10 Sorc
11 Sorc
12 Sorc - Feat: Weapon Finesse, Dex: 18
13 Sorc
14 Sorc
15 Sorc - Feat: Ambidexterity
16 Fighter - Feat: Two-weapon Fighting, Dex: 19
17 Fighter - Feat: Weapon Focus: X weapon
18 Fighter - Feat: Improved Critical: X weapon
19 Fighter - Feat: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
20 Fighter - Dex: 20
21 Sorc - Feat: Epic Weapon Focus: X weapon
22 Sorc
23 Sorc
24 Sorc - Feat: Armor Skin, Dex: 21
25 Sorc
26 Sorc
27 Sorc - Feat: Epic Mage Armor (30 Spellcraft)
28 Rogue - Evasion, skill dump, Dex: 22 (30 Tumble, 19 UMD)
29 Fighter - Feat: Epic Weapon Specialization: X weapon, (32 Concentration/Discipline etc.)


You mentioned rogue and sorcerer.

They offer more sneaks for you, but not that much. Enough to enhance the damage to your liking I hope. You can as well be using dual wield with the ranger level, if want five instead of four attack per round. This build uses the mummy dust summon to be your tank, so you might sneak behind opponents and get the desired sneak attacks. You gain more skills as well, which might be good, if you wish to use hide/ms.

Same stats, ac, a tad lower AB and one less attack per round, but still a overall fine build.

23 Sorcerer/5 Rogue/1 Ranger

1 Rogue - Feat: Toughness, Sneak +1d6
2 Sorc
3 Sorc - Feat: Extend Spell
4 Sorc - Cha: 19
5 Sorc
6 Sorc - Feat: Max Spell
7 Sorc
8 Sorc - Cha: 20
9 Sorc - Feat: Empower Spell
10 Sorc
11 Sorc
12 Sorc - Feat: Weapon Finesse, Dex: 18
13 Sorc
14 Sorc
15 Sorc - Feat: Weapon Focus: Shortsword/Handaxe/Dagger/whateva
16 Sorc - Dex: 19
17 Sorc
18 Rogue - Feat: Improved Critical: X, Evasion
19 Rogue - Sneak +2d6
20 Rogue - Dex: 20
21 Sorc - Feat: Epic Fortitude
22 Sorc
23 Sorc
24 Sorc - Feat: Armor Skin, Dex: 21
25 Sorc
26 Sorc
27 Sorc - Feats: Epic Mage Armor, Mummy Dust (30 Spellcraft)
28 Rogue - Sneak +3d6, Skill dump, Dex: 22 (30 Tumble, 19 UMD or Hide/MS whatever you like)
29 Ranger - Feat: Epic Weapon Focus: X, (32 Discipline, 32 Concentration etc.)

Of course both of these builds are not overly strong spellwise, in terms of spell penetration, spell focus and such, hence the spells which does not use saves.. some of them at least.
You are also vulnerable to greater dispelling and such stripping bastards, but if you play your cards right, use spell mantle and the spells available to you, you can overcome anything. All about tactics and timing.

25 Sorcerer/4 Fighter/1 Rogue comes to mind as well (having no ecl +1). You can get four attacks per round with haste.

The reason behind the high dexterity, is so you survive basically, duh
You gain reflex, ac AND that much needed AB with weapon finesse to hit others in the face. Dual wielding is much more fun. With 60 ac, you should be able to hold your own for a while (PvE oriented). Damage is definetely on the low end. I didn't work out any strength builds, since it seemed to be lacking in so many other departments (Dev Crit are for melee brutes). PvP wise.. well, adapt and overcome. I PvP very rarely, but of course these builds are not impotent if you charge against other PCs.

Spellblades are the best, because you can combine melee and spells. Using your wits to overcome those nasty rats on the infested ship or whoever is in your way. Weaknesses.. yes, but also strengths. Utilizing them is the fun part. Adaptation is the keyword for a Spellblade

_________________

If you join a Spellblade guild, you will most likely get a ton of fun rp and information on how to be a "proper" Spellblade and use your abilities to that end. Unless of course you are evil..

_________________

Even then I can think of two spell blade societies that are open to all alignments.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Was thinking of plotting organizations.

I think the one Dark Immolation is in is fine with any alignment. The Mystic Blade might be as well, but perhaps not as appropriate for one of evil alignment. Ask Samantha Lockeheart, Janna.

_________________

My Spellblade build goes:

23 Wizard 5 WM 2 Rogue.

Means you can take epic mage armor and mummy dust.

It works on all races, you just want to make sure your Int is 20 and your Strength as high as possible.

From what i recall its AC was over 65 and it did punishing amounts of damage due to being a WM at a decent AB (somewhere around 50 with Tensers).

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I've been thinking of making a spellblade hobgoblin, I might try a 22/5/2. Im assuming you took all the WM levels pre-epic?

_________________
The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

Yup. The Serpent and the Mystic Blades were the two I was thinking of.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I know I don't post often, but anyways...
Here's what I did (or am planning, currently L24) for my 'spellblade' character Thilaxtyl (Who, I admittedly don't play very much). He's actually rather sub-optimal. Pal/Sorc is a good combo for a STR based one, but he's DEX based so he has neither divine might nor divine shield. I also didn't have enough feats for the two weapon fighting stuff... (which is a shame because his PnP build did). Build is really feat tight. He's also a kobold.
I personally wouldn't recommend this build just for powers sake. I wouldn't go paladin without some rather serious consideration.
Pre-epic: 3/3/14 Rogue/Pal/Sorc
30: 4/3/23 Rogue/Pal/Sorc
10(8)/18/12/14/8/14
1: Blind Fight
3: Finesse
+Cha
6: Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
+Cha
9: Extend Spell
12: Empower Spell, +Cha
15: Toughness
+Cha
18: IMPR Crit (Shortsword)
+Cha
21: Armor Skin
24: Epic Weapon Focus, +Dex
27: Epic Prowess
+Dex
30: G-Cha 1
30*: Epic Mummy Dust: (Outsider)
8/20/12/14/8/20

Those are the basics of it.

_________________
I play:

Wow. Spellswords coming out of the woodwork lately. >_> I hope this means new cannon fodder- I mean recruits for the Honorable Serpent/Mystic Blade.

Edit: Gah, sorry, misinterpreted post.

I never got around to playing him, but from a build optimisation standpoint 5 WM is better than 7 due to epic spells.

And yeah 5 WM in pre-epic to get your BAB and AB up as fast as possible

12 BAB pre-epic
5 BAB epic
5 Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, Weapon Master 5
5 GMW
11 Strength Modifier
10 Tensers
2 Bless/Aid
=
50

Add a Bard and Cleric to your party to cap your AB to 53. (song/prayer)

It will do a shit ton of damage but only have 3 attacks (four hasted) which is fine since you are an epic caster still and can still use saveless spells (IGMS etc).

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

This is interesting. Can I get a level break down? Start stats?

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

A sorcerer 23/CoT 5/Rogue 2 would be very good as well.

_________________

Well, I would start by making a level 8 Rogue.
Starting stats something like this. Tweaked a little depending on race. This is for a human, it would be a little easier with an elf or something else that gets +Dex.
14STR
16DEX (+7+2or3 Great Dexes) (Buff to 38)
8CON
10INT
14WIS
14CHA (Buff to 26)

Power Attack and Cleave early on to qualify for BG. Divine Might and SHield a little later when the BG levels are being taken. Weapon Finesse, Focus, Improved Critical inbetween...one more preepic feat, probably Blind Fight but maybe Extra Turning. No KD to put the sneaks to work but there is always Ring of the Ram.

In Epic 3xGreat Dex needed for 26 DEX, might settle for one less if you want another feat. Might seem a little gimped but with your Epic BG bonus feats and Ranger feat you can take Epic Focus and Armour Skin, and Epic Fiendish Servant - although tbh I don't know if that does anything if you get the book of vile darkness? You could take Prowess there instead maybe. Rogue bonus feats obviously Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll. Doesn't really matter how you get to 29, as long as youre 13/16 by then. 30th level is the 1 Ranger, thats when you get Epic Dodge.

It's missing Epic Fortitude and Epic Skill foci.... but the AC should be pretty rediculous, with 38DEX, Divine Shield and the option of using a tower shield...60s,70 at a stretch? AB not bad either, high 40s, low 50s? Can't be arsed working it out. Damage great, Sneak +12d6(?) to go with Divine Might and all the other standard BG stuff. Lots of skills too, only 10 INT but all those 8 skill points from the Rogue levels give a human the chance to max 6 skills - Tumble, UMD, Discipline, perhaps Hide/MS, Spot...although I'd be tempted by Taunt. And by ending as Ranger you get to put 33 points in a lot of those. And of course with Dark Blessing the saves are going to be great. Pretty awesome! Divine Might/Shield a little underpowered compared to some but thems the breaks if you want Epic Dodge. I played the Paladin equivalent but its the same deal more or less. Tempted to try it myself but I don't have a concept to tie the build to. One day, though. Muaha.

More ac. Think of Epic dodge. It removes the first attack. The second is 5AB less.

65-75AC; If we really think of it.

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Very cool! My friend and I are making a pair of Evils. They may both be BG.. Or not. What would be a build that would accompany that BG well? Maybe something Bard?

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Bard 20/Palemaster 10? (nerfed)
Bard 20/Cleric 10? (nerfed)
Bard20/Rogue 10?
Bard 30 (Win!)
Bard 20/Fighter 5/WM 5 (devcrit)
Bard20/SD 10 (epic dodge)

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Bard accompanies everything well. Bard20/BG10? Lasting Inspiration and +10 Divine Might/Shield/Dark Blessing? Not bad. Might not even need Divine Shield with Bard's Dodge AC.

Hrm.. What about non-bards?

I'm always timid about playing bards because I like to play my characters realistically and that means I should probably be talented with throwing lyrics together on the spot. Which I'm not, really.. RPing with me would be like "Sing a song" and then I'd have like five minute pauses every few lines.

I kind of want to make a heavy-hitting Devy Criter to revolve around the new system. Honestly, I think the new Devy Crit is pretty awesome in the right hands.

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

What do you mean? You asked for Bard builds, You got bard builds?

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Yes. I understand the confusion. She is totally okay with playing bards... I'm not. It depends on who's being the sneaky BG. I did say maybe something bard.

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

It helps if you post more of the concept

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Wait, when? The point of the build isn't Dev.

And I'll just trust in Cloak that he got it right.

Yurell: Go with either 11/18/1 or 12/16/2, otherwise the BG levels are a tad pointless. Of course for kewlpantz 10/20 or 8/20/2 doesn't hurt and works all right. Sod DEX, it can be 8, just get a ring with Cat's and use Abyssal might. Personally I'd go with a carefree:

STR 16
DEX 8
CON 10
WIS 14
INT 14
CHA 14

P.S. Svensk, I lied.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

.. Edited away and taken to Pm's! Much easier for me!

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QUESTION

I am currently ftr 4/SD 10/Rg 9. I plan to finish out the build with rogue levels. The way I count it, I have five feats remaining: two from normal character progression at 24 and 28, and three from rogue bonus feats at 24, 27 and 30 (which correspond to rg 10, 13 and 16). My DEX is currently 22.

My question is, can I use the rogue bonus feat at 24 to get Great Dex? That would enable me to pump the DEX up to 25 at level 25 and get Epic Dodge at 27. If I can't, I have to wait until level 30.

Also, I have one epic feat unaccounted for. I will have Epic Dodge, ESF MS and Hide, and Great DEX x2. I'm a dual wielder with a 42 AC. What should the final epic feat be?

Thanks for the input!

-VK

I take it you don't need Greater Weapon Focus & Specialization to get the Epic versions?

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Yes, you can get epic DEX as rogue feats.
When did you take last fighter lvl, at lvl 20 for fourth attack 23 in Discipline hopefully?
As a dexter one of your worst fears are getting KD'ed, specially when you cant max discipline, so when you got a spare feat maybe use it on ESF Disc.

EDIT: Crap, I just tested it and no epic DEX on extra rogue feats, sorry..

Greater weapon focus?

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I think you're going to have to wait. Great Dexterity is only an epic bonus feat for Arcane Archer, Assassin, Bard and Harper. Take Crippling Strike instead, thats the best Rogue Bonus feat for melee Rogue IMO.

With your leftover feat I would take Epic Weapon Focus.

I have a mechanics question...maybe I just don't understand it fully, but doesn't the circle kick feat give an EXTRA attack to an adjacent target? I know it's glitched and makes you SWITCH targets after, and I know if the attempt is made at a target 'out of reach' it flat-foots you (which I've had happen w/o circle kick anyway)...but isn't an extra attack worth a mouse-click to re-focus? Is there something with this feat I'm missing? I've seen quite a few posts that suggest staying away from it altogether, and I just don't see how an 'extra attack' is a bad thing.

That's 3.5, not 3.0. NWN1 doesn'thave greaters, only normal -> epic.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Juse no. It totally isn't worth it. You have to constantly reclick to focus on your main target. In PvP, for example..You don't want to attack the wraith most the time. And as you say it can flat-foot you. It's a total pain in the arse and when I played a monk and got it and pretty much ruined him for me.

If you really think you can 'deal with it', then go ahead and cry. I mean, try.

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Circle kick was implemented REALLY badly. IT's SUPPOSED to function likee Cleave, just a free strike. What it ends up doing is ripping your focus to a new target so you've got 6 Badly Wounded istead of three Dead.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I'd rather learn from other people's 'mistakes', 'adventures', and/or 'overall pain level', thank you very much.

*scratches 'Circle Kick' off the feat list*