For those of us who's posts are getting overrun by all the people complaining about GS, Dev and Bigby, I felt it appropriate to set up a thread for the other changes that were made.

Personally, the only nerf I have issue with is the raise dead/resurrection timer applying to both scrolls and cleric castings. I more than understand the raise dead issue of people coming up, raising and running off, then the person healing themselves fully and starting to fight again. Though when its a epic cleric, coming up to a character, trying to cast resurrection and the spell fails (not from the person refusing rez) its just demeaning on the job of clerics, having to sit and twiddle our thumbs while the red glow wears off.

I would like to see either the timer apply only to the scrolls, or remove it from the resurrection spell only as resurrection scrolls can only be made by clerics who took the scribe scroll feat and there aren't many out there.

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Keelah Se'lai

Provided an answer for this.



Voila

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Retired

alright, though another problem is, we cant even OOCly move the bodies of people for 2-5 minutes, they just are forced to lay there...

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Keelah Se'lai

Eh. I'm sure there's stuff to do after a battle. Secure the area, remove weapons and armor, etc. 2-5 flies by in the game.

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Retired

The PvP tool still works outside of the time constraints from what our testing found last night.

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Tensers as it is now is basically not worth using, turns you into a fighter that can not use any potions or scrolls, and if you get hit with a mord you die, and since you are still a spell caster enemies tend to go after you more then the fighters. Something needs to be changed to still make it worth using, giving the Temp HP back is a good start.

((This is just me copying and pasting my other post with edits in Double Brackets))

The only thing I have a small problem with. Is the heal potions.
If the changes are going to be as they are, I would propose a significant decrease in the price. . The point of the potions was to be healed fully. . I mean, On a server where it is constantly on hardcore (Being able to be crit by monsters/Attack of oppurtunities with potion drinking, point blank shooting/Rolling for the amount of HP that potions heals).. Where your potions normally may heal... 15-25 hp... when being hit by serveral things, which get attacks of oppurtunities, which may or may not hit you, and make the whole process of drinking the potion infact entirely pointless aside from a few seconds more of life.

The true problem here is that Heal potions are used primarly in PVP which winds up with "Who ever has the most money wins."
Quite frequently PC's in PVE ~NEED~ the heal potions to be able to survive an ambush. . and quite frequently they need to drink more then one at a time to be able to get out of being boxed in. For those with low AC or HP.
So with that in mind, I have a suggestion. . that the timer be activated for the heal potions only when a Hostile PC is nearby. That or raise the price of the heal potions to say... 76k a stack.. Hell, maybe even 100k a stack... that way they really are expencive. .and are worth what they heal. . or worth more then what they heal even.

Death on Amia is nothing, I admit that... Comming from another server where the minimum xp loss you can get from a death is 5% total XP and the maximum loss is 9% total XP. The gold costs for the Average death was 6000gold. And that was if your body was around for it. If your body wasnt, you could have someone raise you at a temple, which would cost 45000gold. Those two Rezzes would result in an average 5% of your total XP being lost, and that wasnt using the Raise or Resserection spell.
The raise or resserection spells would be free, but would cost the most XP to have done, Raise would be 9% total XP loss, and Rez would be 7% total Xp loss... but this is irrelevant for the current argument, but it does show how lite death is on Amia.
But still, Death is Death, its plain annoying. No one Enjoys being killed out in the wilderness.
For those who can not buff themselves adequately it comes even easier in some area's.. and without the help of the Full Heal Potions they are likely to be screwed. Because other potions quite simply dont heal enough HP to be usefull at later levels, when things can hit you for 40 damage a swing, or crit often enough to make even drinking one small potion utterly pointless.
As I stated above, I believe that the main reason for the change is PVP. "He/She who has the most money wins, and can gloat about it". If it's possable, something to even out the PVP and PVE of it. Would be to enable the timer only when a hostile PC is nearby. . . OR, have the timer activate when the PVP tool is activated by a player, and for the player who activates it target.

((Quick summarise on that sporadic part, Cheaper Heal pots, Or, simply making the timer based for PVP as thats what it seems to be based around mainly, I watched several people lastnight get blocked in, and trying to drink heal pots to stay alive, after the first potion they are screwed, so they waste potions basically. Hence the cheaper part, as they are damned expencive. Or also the part of having the timer for PVP. .that way it can keep everyone happy to an extent))


Wait, I lied.. Not the only thing I have a problem with.
Raise Dead & Ressurection.
I understand the cooldown for Raises and Rez's in PVP.. Because I imagine its plain annoying going into PVP and killing someone, or two people, then someone comes in from the side and rezzes them, then you have them attacking you yet again, and again, and again... I wouldn't know, I try to stay out of PVP personally.
But a 2minute cool down could be quite annoying in the PVE area... although admittedly, it can add for a little bit of RP during the time you need to wait for the timer to be ready to do the Rez, but it could also be quite annoying... Say, if you need to get out quickly.. or its a dangeriously unstable area that the person died in, so you want to rez them and get the hell out so you can drag away whatever is causing it to be dangerious, keeping you alive and the person you just raised.
Although the way around that of course would be running out of the area entirely, and waiting for the spawn to either despawn, or just regrouping then charging back in to rescue the fallen.
So I guess I managed to even out the bad with the Raise and Ressurection thing mid Rant.. So it can likely be ignored, but I'll leave it there anyway.

Infact, here's an idea with the Raise/Rez thing... Instead of Timers... Perhaps the Spells need Reagents to work.. Or the raised Target suffers a sort of ressurection sickness.. which could be a temporairy level/stat drain.
Which actually to me, makes sence.. because in PnP. .When you die, you lose the last 6hours of your memory.. or at least thats how it was allways played with me. So having that stat/level drain penalty after a raise/rez would be fitting.. the person who got raised can either wait for it to wear off, or can see a cleric or NPC priest to have it removed.
To go with the idea of reagents for Raise/Rez, perhaps the scrolls could be increased in price.. or, a second scroll added which comes with the reagent and offers a clean rez. ((The idea for this would be minus the waiting to be able to res/raise, possably combining my idea of casting the spell, then after half a minute or a minute, the person the spell was cast on is braught back))
Or hell, making it so that the effect from Raising/Rezzing is impossable to take effect while in combat.
Or even having the spell cast on the character, starts the timer for the rez... Say, someone see's a corpse, hits Raise or Rez on them.. then walks off... a Minute later said person is braught back to life.
I do like the cool down for the PVP part however. I think the only people who should be able to raise people constantly mid fight, should be possably Necromancers or Pale Masters, who animate the corpses of the fallen.. other then that, the 5 minute cool down on PVP raising is I believe a good idea, that way people cant win a battle through shear numbers, because someone raised someone else many times during the battle which lead to the side who got killed many times, winning.


Alright, Rant over. I hope some of these ideas are actually helpfull aswell =)

-Rayne

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You may clip our wings, but we will never forget what it was like to fly.

Keeping Tenser's as it was with the added items penalty would have been enough.

Turning it into a constant TrueStrike without adding to attacks per round and not being able to heal or use items has made both a novelty and a Waterloo for anyone that seeks to use it without being 110% specced for it. Which is telling enough that a spell is not worth slotting for general use.

It was nerfed because Divine Power was, pure and simple. If there were a glitch with it adding 2 attacks instead of 1, it could have easily been fixed without castrating it.

I have explained the Tensers change to both of you multiple times, I am uncertain why Terra made it so you couldn't use items whilst under its effects.

Tensers was never intended to do what it did.

You are only three AB short of what the spell originally did on a pure caster.

The extra attacks were removed because of how bonus attacks scale. It was deemed unbalanced that a strength based wizard with devcrit (extremely easy to build), could run with five attacks over 45 AB aswell as mestils, mass haste, full set of max buffs and 65+ AC.

You were getting two extra attacks as long as you were pure in pre-epic.

Again and the current iteration of tensers and its apparent failure is an issue with your gear setting, and your builds, not with the spell itself. The extra attacks will not be returning. 1 +1BAB class in pre-epic will net you a third attack.

It was not nerfed because divine power was, divine power was nerfed because it was. Do stop making assumptions when you have no idea of the discussion that went into the balance fix.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

If a spell requires you to build around it, it makes that spell much less useful. Tensers now requires you to make a build specifically only for Tensers. if you use it on anything else other then a build specifically designed for it, it is a death trap.

Before it was useful on non-str builds, now if you are not a STR build dont bother using it.

But was there absolutely no way to cap the extra attack at 1? I think understand your reasoning for most of it, but I find the reactions inordinate.

The fact that not even a 3rd of mages were running around in it, slicing up things should have been evident that it wasn't too horrible as it was. That there must be some secondary, practicality limitations on the spell already(lack of melee feats by most mages).

I can understand that at a certain point devs must account for "what if someone builds specifically for this X". But the current point is where it only remains appealing for those who do specifically build for it.

I basically crippled all item-spells when you're under spell-failure. Tenses just followed along which I felt appropriate because if a 'zard can't use his spells with this spell on a non 'zard shouldn't be able to either.

Its under discussion again though and might change again soon.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

Wasn't having a go, i'm sure you had a perfectly logical reason for it.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I know. But it still called for an explanation to feed the potentially curious person wondering!

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

My curiousness is sated! Amia had its very own spell plague!

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

You have /no/ idea how many times I was tempted to post that!

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Retired

I was having so much fun not just sitting there letting my sheath and pets do all the work. Looking forward to seeing what you guys decide.

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~Science Transcript~
Bruce Kesselson: [Talk] Channeling a different color.. Vyashir!
Vyashir lndrire: [Talk] Purple?
Bruce Kesselson: [Talk] Prepare for purple!
Vyashir lndrire: [Talk] yes!

I'm liking the idea of a cool down period for resurection scrolls or clerics. I liken it to res shock, your toon was dead and poof back!, but still weak or if full Ressurection and heal was used your toon is -still- going to be in shock or disoriented, this 2-5 minutes gives plenty of time to rp Resurection shock or sickness before you can actually start moving around. Woot nice one!

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

Allright... I am a bit confused.. I now find that when I go to Quietly hide into a shadow, my character throws off a big strobe effect and indication sound warning everyone in the area that I am now hidden?

I am not being unreasonable when I ask that I be allowed to hide in a more discreet fashion am I?

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Characters:

Fel'Brin - I am one with the shadows

I second this, the whole sound and effect thing is uncool
Stealth is supposed to be subtle.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

Sounds like an unintentional testing addition from the hide hook Terra put in.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Yep, its mostly for testing because I happen to like VFXes more then:



Sides' the shadowy vfx seemed to fit the concept.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

I assume it's going to be a temporary thing while you're working on hide-related stuff? As neat as it looks, I'd still rather not announce my PC's stealthy arrival/departure with sound!

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

No don't plan on keeping it. Its just a line of code there to announce that the hook is working. Sorry if it upset anyone and I'll swap it for a message tomorrow.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

*Goes and buys a bunch of resurrection scrolls and pretends the awesome once your dead in pvp your dead never happened.*

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The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

Why do we need 2 topics?

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

because this one isnt spammed with complaints about Dev/GS/Bigby so people can actually keep up with the discussion, instead of going to sleep and waking up to 4+ new pages of chatter

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Keelah Se'lai

So there's 2 topics full of meaningless chatter?

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

wasnt meaningless until this post...



as this player didnt read my post on the other thread about making Resurrection being unable to scribe so only clerics can raise someone without the 5 min wait (assuming they have resurrection slotted)

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Keelah Se'lai

In short, Tormak - yes.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

please make it so we can use items under tenser's terra, or we can't use a lesser restoration, restoration,antidotes, bubbly, that is really what's making it tough to use, since heal potions are nerfed, it's not that big a deal if someone needs a antidote, yuanti poison, or spider poison, that throws you back on your ab, and you can't do much about it, except run away.Especially now, that dying means you have to "think about what you've done" for 2 min before being raised.
widgets are also usefull, some of us have lesser restoration crafted into our gear, and we can't use that under battle, for example when we got hit by curse or interposing hands, clarity, etc..

I do disagree with the nerf to Tensers. I do so because of this reason.

The spell now requires a wizard to build a cheese in order to use it usefully - if you're stuck in a situation where you need to fight as a wizard, and you have the tensers spell in your memory-pool - you're screwed because it simply will not give you an upper hand against the environment. You /will/ be buttfucked, for a lack of a better word.

The tensers spell was designed to give the wizard the ability to wield a weapon and kick some ass. Yes, there are cheese builds that take advantage of this. Just like there a cheese builds that the DM team cannot put a lid on because the playerbase are allowed to play what they want to play (class-wise and within reason).

Furthermore - it's /another/ seemingly unnecessary nerf upon the wizards that, in my honest opinion, do not need anymore nerfs. With Devcrit gone, the STR wizard with tensers won't be very effective anyway, even less so now.

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'Ze Cock! Ze Cock ist shtill aut der!! Kapitulation feiern - NEIN DANKE!'

"oh no, my wizard can't beat a fighter in melee and weild cosmiclly powerful magic simultaneously. "

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Assuming some amount of acceptable gear and forethought, Tenser's is still more than capable of dealing with lesser threats comfortably. However, if you're hoping for a spell to give a mage build the ability to stand up to a warrior build in combat, well, you've gotten far too comfortable in your throne of power amidst the rest of the playerbase.

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Mostly Retired

I suppose what I am curious about is how useful we can make it -without- coming near making warrior builds obsolute. Or even equal to mage builds in melee.

Currently, I think Peacock is right in the sense that it is a spell only useful for a cheese build. I certainly don't think it's worth its normal slot or any metamagic slot because not being able to use items seems deathly to me. That and the HP pump isn't there.

But if adding those things makes them 'equal' to warrior builds, then I guess don't. But don't expect much of the playerbase to ever use the spell again... Unless they're trying for some silly reason to base a STR wizard around it in its current state.

Edit: I suppose one use for it is if you want to, as Brain seems to suggest, fight low level mobs in a different, quicker way. So if you're just, for some reason, grinding low level mobs.. Sure I'd slot it. But definitely no other time.

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

Ultimately it comes down to the Shifter Argument.

Spellcasters should be best at Spellcasting
Fighters should be best at Fighting
Sneaks should be best at Sneaking

The concept of a Non-Fighter (Note, I'm not saying the Fighter class here, so much as Fighter as a 'Mundane Combat Oriented Character') being on-par with a Fighter is quite innane, and unless a Fighter in return can be on par with a Non Fighter in the same regards, well... If that was the case, each would be identical, as each would be as good at eachother at the same things.

This is why a Shifter, for example, can be a compotent Spellcaster, Fighter, or Sneak yet cannot match any dedicated Spellcaster, Fighter, or Sneak. The same is (progressively) being applied to Spellcasters, I believe, where a Spellcaster no longer doubles as a Fighter that is on par with an actual Fighter.

This is why Tenser's Transformation is reduced to a point wherein it is viable for lesser threats, yet against an actual fighter, your 'fighter spell' will prove extremely insufficient. This is because you are a Spellcaster, not a Fighter.

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Mostly Retired

If that is what the goal is.. Clerics are still better fighters than fighter-builds. (using fighter in the same denotation you are, not the class). Rangers are great fighters and great sneaks..

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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr

It'll never be perfect, but cleaning up the outliers is always a step in the designated direction.

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Mostly Retired

Put an unbuffed melee cleric against an unbuffed mundane fighter, and it'll be a short fight. That's balance.
Put a buffed melee cleric against a similarly buffed mundane fighter, and it's still a short fight.
Put a buffed melee cleric agaisnt an unbuffed mundane fighter, and the mundane fighter gets nominated for a Darwin Award.

I fail to see the problem, this seems like the way things should be to me. All things being equal, the fighter will beat the cleric. The key is that the cleric sacrifices direct melee ability for the spells to make sure that things are not equal. If a fighter wants to beat a melee cleric, the key is surprise or preparation. KD before they can buff, hit them with a mords scrolls, get friends, whatever.

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Shynt'iira, Ilharess d'lil Qu'ellar My'ana

Mundane fighters with War/Strength Domain bonuses plus Divine Shield, Might and Favour running?

Thankyou, Ruce, for saying all I wanted to but in significantly less words. Though you did forget +5 Armor without wasting 3 Mythal Slots, +5 deflection without wasting 3 mythal slots, +5 Enhancement without wasting 3 mythal slots, and +5 Shield without wasting three mythal slots.

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Mostly Retired

Would the PVP Widget still not OOC Raise people, so for example if i was performing a kidnapping, i killed/knocked someone out, and wanted to drag their body away, could i still do that?

Hidden Text Below! Highlight to see :>

If this has Already been answered then you have noticed that i am lazy and cannot be bothered to read through it all.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Why did you have to go fudge up the Divine Favour and Divine Power? WHY?!

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Characters:
Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues
Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia

To make us Caster Clerics more awesome ;D

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Pffft!You should be spanked. Well, maybe it's time for my free rebuild soon...

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Characters:
Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues
Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia

No one's disagreeing with the reasoning is the thing; just a lot think it goes too far in nerfing the spell, not mages as a whole.

Anything you can clear in melee with 2 attacks per round, low to mid 20's damage, and around mid 30 AB, you could have killed with a few fireballs as a lv 30 mage. It becomes redundant, and again, something just to dick around with.

Also, if I understand Terra reasoning:



The no-items was mainly intended to for the UMDers that would use it from a scroll. The unfortunate thing is that that backfires more on those who cast it more than anything else. The UMDer just shrugs and goes "Hey, I don't need +5 ab that bad where I can't use any items for 11 rounds". Or even worse "Heh, I'm already stacked, I'll just shoot it like a TS potion halfway through the fight, after I've healed if I need to. Even then, 11 rounds isn't too long".

The mage on the other hand does not have this luxury. +20 rounds without any spells is risky enough, without items, it's just unwise. "Here, let me give up spells, healing, fleeing, hiding, and any form of augmenting my state for 30 rounds and go stand in melee with the same health and the close-range capability of a warrior half my level."

It's past incarnation, with the extra attacks capped at 1, with the AB cap at 10, and the no-items clause would be more than appropriate, IMO, given Mord scrolls.

The current incarnation, Temp HP back, and items back would be just as appropriate as well.

When did I miss this big Str-Wizard uprising? Never made an appearance in the first thread talking about Tenser's when it was first made into something useful.

I lol'd, tormaks got the right idea.

regarding rez, I was trying to bring it up in the other thread but idk maybe everyone was too pissed off yesterday to read it.

indeed with the changes you can no longer ooc raise anyone, and as per the rules you MUST provide an ooc raise if you kill someone, so you now HAVE TO wait around for five minutes, regardless of, if your still being attacked, if your 'not there' because you escaped and then returned to raise, and all situations inbetween

I have also seen messages from DM's at points stating 'DO NOT REMAIN DEAD ON A FULL SERVER, LOG OFF AND ENJOY LIFE' or something to that effect, so, well I just don't understand the reasoning behind the change. that it takes time to cast is all well and good but then there is ooc raising, and 'ooc' moving the body...

make of it what you will but I can't see it in a good way. the other changes I do but that was the other thread.

ed: being 'thrown from a cliff' is no longer enactable for 5 mins for example, obviously there are counter arguments but ooc moving the body I can deffinatly see as a pain in the lower reigons of the human body.

Why is there two threads? I -DONT- Understand.

*Throws arms up, Exasperated!*

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

there are actually three but to answer your question, I have no idea.