AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

Sure, that makes sense. I'm in management in The Really Real World, so I deal with '...but we've always done it that way' daily, which is paraphrasing the recent comments, but accurate. My only real question was whether I would get more mileage from IKD and 1 extra AB, or Dev Crit. I asked because I've spent the last year playing on an action server that almost requires players to squeeze every build until it's painful, then apply a vise and squeeze a bit more. Building on any other server is quite a different experience. As far as the RP behind the classes I chose is concerned, I'm hoping to have a bio and background story posted this w/e: my work schedule hasn't allowed much time for it. I'll play him more (lvl 12 now), see which option I prefer, and go from there. Thanks again for the input...and flamage. Passion is a Good Thing.

If you already have high AB and want to rely on KD (Not hp/ac tanked) then IKD is basically +4ab (Disc here is mad easy to get though)

If your armor tanked and have HP then maybe AB would help

If you want to be able to kill people like a crazy mother.. dev crit (More STR you have better it is)

See? The fact that skill bonuses are readily available is valuable info. I should have thought that thru and realized that while taking the epic fighter levels for WS, or Pally for saves, or Ranger for free DW and feat would include a Discipline dump. Cheddar.

The server I came from is quite stingy with skill gear. I read in another post that getting individual saves to +20 on Amia is also not very difficult. Thank you for that piece of info; very helpful.

You only get a bonus to saves equal to your paladin level on Amia, so taking one level on a sorc like you posted earlier will benefit you almost nothing, unless you want to dump discipline or something. But you can do that with other classes that have less heavy roleplay limitations.

Don't forget the BG saves and Monk AC bonus are also limited to 1 per class level. So, don't expect huge boosts with only a level of any of those three classes, Vaul Tarrith.

Ahh...hadn't crossed my mind to play any of those classes so I didn't remember those changes (good changes, too). I was still being passive-aggressive about The Great Cheese Hypocrisy...

I'm done now...I think.

IKD means you can KD Giants etc. . .really useful if you have sneaks. . .which your build doesn't. Also the point Tormak was making is valid, you've chosen one of the cheesiest weapons, on a cheesy build, with zero dex and if that 12 dex is correct you've actually exploited and abused a subrace loophole which may mean the DM's will request you rebuild your character with your yearly free rebuild.

So...let me get this straight: by setting a stat high enough to get a particular feat(s) at character creation knowing that the stat will drop below minimum requirements is considered 'exploiting and abusing a subrace loophole'? It's entirely naive to think that min/maxing at every opportunity isn't happening on this server, including at character creation. My trouble is that I was honest about what I intended to do. FOR THE RECORD: the current character I'm playing has a DEX of 13, and the build I worked up calls for an epic-level feat to get his DEX to 14. Also, he uses a bastard sword currently, NOT a rapier. I posted the IDEA to get some feedback.

I damn sure got it...

I'd be curious to see what kind of reaction the Brd/PM/DwD I saw challenging people at random, claiming to be a 'bounty hunter' a few months back would get if he were honest about his build. I would venture to say there'd be a fair amount of people who have 'exploited and abused a subrace loophole' if anyone were able to investigate. I know that statement is just asking for everyone to post and say 'Oh, not ME', but so be it. I was honest about what I was considering. If someone would post a list of builds classified as 'acceptable cheesiness', that'd be helpful...

Better yet, I'll just build what I like and STFU. And again...thanks for the input, and have a G-R-E-A-T day! :twisted:

I... but you...

Yeah, stick to Action servers. I think it's your best bet, honestly...

I mean, really, just because you were honest about an exploit doesn't make it fine to use it. In fact, it could be construed as grounds for a ban, I'd think.
Yes, crap like that happens but it's almost impossible to police every new character.

It's common sense that if something is an exploit you shouldn't be using it. Gaming 101

As i just indicated, the build I'm actually playing started with a 14 Dex: after his racial adjustment, he has a 13, which is the minimum necessary for Dodge and Mobility, which means that I currently / always have had enough dex to qualify for SD. I can see where taking a 13 and letting it fall to 12 is pushing the boundaries...but it was just an idea, NOT reality. As far as taking bard levels with an 8 charisma, or not increasing my dex over the minimum, or taking bard for saves instead of rogue for sneaks...all of that is at LEAST as logical as a Cleric/Brd/AA, F/Brd/PM, Sor/Rng/Rog, etc, whatever, ad nauseum.

*pretends nothing ever happened*

Hey, folks! I'm looking for a quiet, tame build that won't get me ridiculed...maybe something cookie-cutter and unoriginal, within the standardized parameters of 'acceptability'. Any ideas?

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

Better yet, I'll just build what I like and STFU.

Good policy. Play what you want and have fun. Don't listen to the RP police.

12 DEX dodge + mobility is hardly an exploit. Going Chultan would be the better route anyways.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

So...Dev Crit? OR IKD, higher base weapon damage, and +1AB and damage?

Dev Crit.

I think the biggest point in playing a cheesy build is the old spider-man adage.. With get power comes great responsibility.

My current PC (Though his class is purely RPed) is very cheesy. And hes in PVP constantly because of it. That said, I never initiate the PVP. And try not to be a wanker about it when I do win. If you have a powerful class and play it so people can have fun.. Then I say all the power to you

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

As i just indicated, the build I'm actually playing started with a 14 Dex

You actually never said that it pertained to the build you posted. If you ever mentioned that the build you posted was for the character you currently play (that had 14 DEX originally), then I missed that.

I may have missed it again when I just looked, even, but I didn't see it. If that's right, then kudos for trying to backpedal out of what you said.
If I missed it, then, forget what I said.

Quote:

Good policy. Play what you want and have fun. Don't listen to the RP police.

I can't say "ignore the DMs about roleplay" is solid advce on a roleplay server, just for future reference.

Maybe this should be the last iteration of this thread.

...before that occurs, and I do indeed feel regret for linking crit ranges to this thread after that >_>

can anyone suggest a build that does not entirely suck, that encorporates purple dragon knight? I have been trying various things but I am just lost. was thinking paladin, or maybe even a sorc, due to charisma being very important. I do not play bards. (that said I am a musician IRL and probably could but typing songs puts me off the whole idea.)

ed: paladin/cot/pdk comes to mind, but i'd have to try that one, I imagine its not as worthy a build as I imagine.

Builds generally aren't great because of PDK outside Heroic Shield, they're great because of the other 225-29 levels.

29 Wizard 1 PDK is the best Purple Dragon Knight I've played.

Theres just no great advantage beyond RP going more than 1 PDK.

TormakSaber wrote:

Maybe this should be the last iteration of this thread.

I would actually be in favor of this.

That said, on a wizard that is not going to be involving herself in PvP as much as possible, which is more valuable: Auto-Quicken or hoarding epic spells? I think I'm leaning towards the epic spells just to indicate that she will truly master her craft, unless Auto-Quicken is just that good to have.

I stopped caring about "cheesy" builds years ago.

While my main is usually a roleplay build to at least some degree (Shynt'iira isn't exactly a powerhouse), I perfectly understand people who get tired of having to deal with their gimped builds having to stands up to PvP-powerbuilds that push the boundaries of bad courtesy. In my experience with multiplayer server, any character that gets involved in any kind of serious RP is going to have to deal with all sorts of powergaming wankers who are just in the game to inflate their ego, and if a dose of cheese will help to get them out of my hair quicker than that is a sacrifice I am happy to make.

(That said, I am currently making a Barb/BG with no weapon focus at all. I do try to make wanker-proof builds without having to resort to cheese.)

Wizard/Sorc 30 is pretty anything-proof.

My last post...because this is a 'build' thread, and I've unintentionally turned it into something else entirely...

To assume I don't have a backstory that supports a build (like, say, a F/Brd/SD w/8 Cha who uses a rapier) is ridiculous. I'm not sure how my original post turned into the inability to RP, but it has. I apologize for anything I said that made someone else believe I couldn't justify / RP a build. I caught flak on another thread for an evil DwD (NON PM or DD, before anyone starts) who only had a 10 Con. Just because the 'lojik' isn't grasped immediately by someone else doesn't make it 'wrong', 'cheesy', or 'exploited'. It MAY, but it also may just make it *gasp* 'original'. Enjoy the thread; I'll be in-game.

auto quicken three PWNS, but so does mummy dust, GR, etc...its an either or though, can't have both (without 40 levels..)

also haste beats quickened for some reason in a few situations, I recommend finding the counterspell section of the nwn wiki, it explains it there in some detail, though vague.

no one said you can't rp, but i'd love to see how a bard with no song or spells works, oh yes *eyes everyone who has a 1 bard in their build for UMD/tumble -_-* just don't.

i'm starting to agree with uberuce...30 sorc, wear black...might try that one.

Autoquick = pvp

Epic spells = PvM

Basically. Though both are useful both ways you could break it up that simply. EMD and hell ball and greater ruin are nifty PVP and PVM but... Nothing really beats auto quicken timestop/maximized igm spam/timestop loops for pvp.

Glyph wrote:

no one said you can't rp, but i'd love to see how a bard with no song or spells works, oh yes *eyes everyone who has a 1 bard in their build for UMD/tumble -_-* just don't.

I've been considering this myself after someone suggested it'd fit the character, though Dominik's slowly running out of levels for me to decide if I'm actually going to splash a little bard though. He wouldn't be the singing / performing type (to quote RP "He has a singing voice akin to a frogs") but more the storytelling type.

erroch wrote:

Glyph wrote:

no one said you can't rp, but i'd love to see how a bard with no song or spells works, oh yes *eyes everyone who has a 1 bard in their build for UMD/tumble -_-* just don't.

I've been considering this myself after someone suggested it'd fit the character, though Dominik's slowly running out of levels for me to decide if I'm actually going to splash a little bard though. He wouldn't be the singing / performing type (to quote RP "He has a singing voice akin to a frogs") but more the storytelling type.

Having bard levels doesn't mean your character has to sing or perform well. Not all bards are good at it, and not all bards do sing or perform. Some as you said... can do storytelling or even the attitude of a bard carrying over to your characters rp might be a viable excuse to have some bard. There is much more to a bard then just singing and performing... which a lot of people forget.

true that a bard it not nessicarrily a musican, at least not 100% of the time. but then why not take rouge/more sd, and tell storys? what am I saying, who killed the build thread?! >_<

also regarding the loop...

Quote:

# Hasted casters can counterspell any other caster if the above requirements are met.
# Casters utilizing automatic quicken spell cannot counter hasted casters.

*is hasted, counters with mords* :twisted:

ed: I am actually quite confused about counterspelling, especially this part.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

the Brd/PM/DwD I saw

Sorry, I hate to nitpick, but because this is the build thread, I feel I kinda have to. This isn't possible. Bard is anything non-lawful and DwD has to be lawful. So, this isn't a possible combination on Amia.

That being said...

Glyph wrote:

true that a bard it not nessicarrily a musican, at least not 100% of the time. but then why not take rouge/more sd, and tell storys?

RP is the only real reason I can think of. Bard is really only good as anything else then a tumbledump with more than a few levels behind it and if you're looking for a tumbledump, then why not go Rogue and pick up Evasion and a +1d6 sneak or Monk and possibly pick up a few extra AC? The only reason I can think is that Bard is more fitting to the character concept.

Spellcraft, UMD and Discipline Dumps. The SD levels already net it evasion and there are items that grant sneak bonii.

Spellcraft adds +1 save to spellsaves per 5 ranks. Thats ranks total. So if a character has 33 natural Spellcraft and an int modifier of +2 they get +7 to their spellsaves. Thats alot of gear setting you don't have to do.

Anyone have a solid BG/Fighter/R Epic Smiter build I could take a peek at? I am feeling rather lazy right now and don't really want to throw my own together without at least getting some ideas from other peoples builds.

Blackguard Epic Smiters just aren't that good because they don't get the all day AB bonii of the Paladins spellbook.

I know, but I am still curious what the best possible fit for one would be though.

26cha and 19 BG levels with rogue in epic for a maximised tumble dump and the epic fiend feat.

Your probably looking at 26cha 14wis 8con 10int 8dex 14 str or something ridiculous like that.

Level order would probably amount to

10 fighter 10 BG pre-epic
9 BG 1 Rogue epic.

Personally i wouldn't do it, because its just a little to gimped but you could get something workable out of it.

Haste is better than Autoquicken and you will have it in any situation you'd need it. Save yourself 4 feats.

MoshingChris wrote:

26cha and 19 BG levels with rogue in epic for a maximised tumble dump and the epic fiend feat.

Your probably looking at 26cha 14wis 8con 10int 8dex 14 str or something ridiculous like that.

Level order would probably amount to

10 fighter 10 BG pre-epic
9 BG 1 Rogue epic.

Personally i wouldn't do it, because its just a little to gimped but you could get something workable out of it.

Lets see if I can still do my math right. 25 + 5 + 8 + 3 = 41 ab in general and if I were to used aid and bless items I could bump that to 43 ab. That is pretty gimped no matter how you look at it. It could be worse though.

TormakSaber wrote:

Haste is better than Autoquicken and you will have it in any situation you'd need it. Save yourself 4 feats.

Says a lot about the haste spell lol

MoshingChris wrote:

Spellcraft, UMD and Discipline Dumps. The SD levels already net it evasion and there are items that grant sneak bonii.

Spellcraft adds +1 save to spellsaves per 5 ranks. Thats ranks total. So if a character has 33 natural Spellcraft and an int modifier of +2 they get +7 to their spellsaves. Thats alot of gear setting you don't have to do.

I forgot about Spellcraft. The build already has Fighter in it, so there's no need for Bard for Discipline and Rogue would give you UMD with a splash of sneak damage, too. I guess it comes down to whether you want that +1d6 damage coming out of HiPS or you want the +7 to spell saves all the time. *shrug* Offensive vs. Defensive.

Maverick00053 wrote:

erroch wrote:

Glyph wrote:

no one said you can't rp, but i'd love to see how a bard with no song or spells works, oh yes *eyes everyone who has a 1 bard in their build for UMD/tumble -_-* just don't.

I've been considering this myself after someone suggested it'd fit the character, though Dominik's slowly running out of levels for me to decide if I'm actually going to splash a little bard though. He wouldn't be the singing / performing type (to quote RP "He has a singing voice akin to a frogs") but more the storytelling type.

Having bard levels doesn't mean your character has to sing or perform well. Not all bards are good at it, and not all bards do sing or perform. Some as you said... can do storytelling or even the attitude of a bard carrying over to your characters rp might be a viable excuse to have some bard. There is much more to a bard then just singing and performing... which a lot of people forget.

True facts. I have a character who has a single bard level - not for tumble or perform (She's a 19 rogue), but for the perform. She's a dancer. Just a plain dancer, and she's good at it. She's also a bladedancer, meaning she incorporates her weapons into her dances as well as dancing into her combat style. The one bard does absolutely nothing for her except give her perform. So you can, in fact, make 1 bard level work, in my opinion. *cough* Sorry. Sidetracked.

Did have a question though: What's the best way to make Ranger/Bard/AA work? Level wise, I mean. I can figure it out from there.

Are you looking to get bane of enemies? Or are you wishing to go heavy AA with a high enchantment bonus to your arrows?

Ranger25/AA3/Bard2, Ranger23/AA5/Bard2, Ranger21/AA7/Bard2. I'd personally go with the first, but then again a regular Ranger25/Fighter4/Rogue1 would be almost the same.

So I have been considering making an AA. Dunno how the heck to build one, though.
My original idea was for an Elven Ranger, then decided AA might be a good idea as well.

What would be best to get the arcane portion of the AA? And what's a good idea for the spread that would maximize the AA abilities?
Also, would Ranger even be a good choice? I assume it routes well into AA, no?

*motions above posts on the topic of Ranger/AA*

Naivatkal wrote:

So I have been considering making an AA. Dunno how the heck to build one, though.
My original idea was for an Elven Ranger, then decided AA might be a good idea as well.

What would be best to get the arcane portion of the AA? And what's a good idea for the spread that would maximize the AA abilities?
Also, would Ranger even be a good choice? I assume it routes well into AA, no?

Rangers not that great a choice, you get similiar benefits to damage and far superior AB from the Fighter/Bard/AA.

You get better versatility from the Monk/AA/Wizard

Your a better support character from a Cleric/AA/Bard or Wizard/Rogue/AA or Wizard/Bard/AA

The only thing that saves the Ranger/AA is the pet, but in a party of 6 you have no pet and in PvP the pets dead in seconds.

THAT SAID.

If it fits your character concept you will still do retardedly good damage.

The ranger/AA was moreso out of curiosity than anything, seeing as I've been told that it's probably the most 'lore accurate.'

As for actual AA builds, yeah. I'd agree with Chris and go Wizard/AA/Rogue or fighter/bard/AA. They have the best damage. If you're curious, there's quite a few AA players out there. I have one, Koragi has one, Sakkran has one, Davis has one... just off the top of my head. I know there's more, I'm just drawing a blank. So, I think between all of us, if you -really- want to play an AA, someone can help you.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Haste is better than Autoquicken and you will have it in any situation you'd need it. Save yourself 4 feats.

Says a lot about the haste spell lol

Yes, it does. It says so much as to explain why it was nerfed in 3.5 very hard, to +1 AC, +1 reflex, +1 attack but only if you make a full attack.

Thanks for the replies.

Yeah, the AA build would be a back-burner sort of thing. I have a lvl 20 right now that I'm getting a tad bored with (trying to RP with him a ton more than before) and I have a 8 Cleric, 8 Monk, and 5 Wizard I need to log in with more haha

So yeah, just trying to get a feel for it

VinceKlortho wrote:

I'm about to level to 20. Thus far I am a 6 rogue/10 SD/3 fighter dual wielder. I've never had a character with epic feats before. How should the rest of the build go? My original plan has been to take one more fighter level and the remaining levels in rogue, which would leave me at 4 fighter/10 SD/16 Rogue.

Advice?

Not nice for a request for halp be skipped over just cause someones build is "the cheese".

weapon specialization on the fighter level, get epic dodge if your dex is high enough, if it is not get great dexterity, though this is something I tend to plan for so would need to know what feats and stats you have already. the 10 SD would grab you improved evasion for free, leaving room for cripling strike, or maybe the mastery one (where you can take 20 on disarming traps, chests, doors, etc in combat) or even epic skill focus hide/MS to improve the sd skills.

improved two weapon fighting if you don't already have it would help for dual wield, and also after the fighter level, you could grab epic weapon spec. / focus which would improve damage and AB a couple of points.

25 dex and 30 tumble for epic dodge, the rest of the pre-requisites come natrually from SD.

also

Quote:

On achieving 10th level and every three levels thereafter, the rogue can choose one of these feats. This is replaced by epic bonus feat progression once the character becomes epic rogue.

* crippling strike
* defensive roll
* improved evasion
* opportunist
* skill mastery
* slippery mind

the crossed out ones come naturally from SD, that leaves, with 16 rouge levels, two of these and epic dodge.

hopefully, I haven't made any mistakes there, would be easier to see the full build.

ed: was going to say extra sneak damage but I forget how to get that feat. - you would need to take that one at level 30, because you only hit the pre-requsite at rouge 15 (8d6 sneaks) which would round it up to pretty much 60 damage at least bonus.

Wolfking6116 wrote:

VinceKlortho wrote:

I'm about to level to 20. Thus far I am a 6 rogue/10 SD/3 fighter dual wielder. I've never had a character with epic feats before. How should the rest of the build go? My original plan has been to take one more fighter level and the remaining levels in rogue, which would leave me at 4 fighter/10 SD/16 Rogue.

Advice?

Not nice for a request for halp be skipped over just cause someones build is "the cheese".

Didn't skip over it, didn't see it. If you take a good look at this thread and its creation you will see its one of the most active on Amia and the most active in General Discussion. Requests get missed. Cast aspersions elsewhere. And when people spam the living hell out of it for two pages, they get missed more often.

Epic Feats for the Shadow Dancer are obviously: Epic Dodge, Epic Hide, Epic Spot, Epic Fort, Epic Weapon Focus.

You wont get epic weapon specialisation because the best SD's have a full round of 4 attacks. That means you want 8 Rogue 8 SD 4 Fighter in pre-epic.

The reason being is you want to change up your flurries hasted coming out of HiPS to 3 2 2 dual wielding. What this means is that if you spammify HiPS something that i do not condone, you will always throw down three attacks.

Naivatkal wrote:

So I have been considering making an AA. Dunno how the heck to build one, though.
My original idea was for an Elven Ranger, then decided AA might be a good idea as well.

What would be best to get the arcane portion of the AA? And what's a good idea for the spread that would maximize the AA abilities?
Also, would Ranger even be a good choice? I assume it routes well into AA, no?

I do love the 18 AA/8 fighter/4 bard. Of course you need to get the perform up to utilize the bard song and even have room to extend the bard song or get three extra ones via feat.

Naivatkal wrote:

So I have been considering making an AA. Dunno how the heck to build one, though.
My original idea was for an Elven Ranger, then decided AA might be a good idea as well.

What would be best to get the arcane portion of the AA? And what's a good idea for the spread that would maximize the AA abilities?
Also, would Ranger even be a good choice? I assume it routes well into AA, no?

Ranger/Bard/AA works perfectly fine, You get a few less feats and 6 less dmg than with fighter, but it's still very good, and fun to play. It is also easier to get good longbows and light armour because of certain Ranger shops. And the 2 extar skill points per level + trackless step is very nice too, as are spot bonus from fav enemies.

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