AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

I bet he meant about the said 120 damage, it comes from the solid plusses from weapons and arcane archer enchant arrow, but most of it comes from crazy sneak attack which is sometihng like 6d6 or something like that. although I bet as he bragged with 120 damage, I believe he forgot to say "it was a crit".

Very_Svensk wrote:

Dead wrote:

how is the damage determined anyway?

Which damage?

ranged and melee.

TeroSNS wrote:

although I bet as he bragged with 120 damage, I believe he forgot to say "it was a crit".

the archer who put my wm to shame did about 220 dmg on crit.

220 Crit?

I'm gonna go and guess on a Cleric/AA

hm...zen, point blank, high sneaks, overwhelming crit...could make an archer do a fair peice on its own, before items, and AA bonuses.

120 on a crit isn't that high up there, you could probably scrape it with pure damage if you have enough everything to increase raw damage. the most i've seen on a crit is around 250+, add whirlwind and my god you are laughing.

damage is something like...[weapon 1d8 for ex.] + str/dex/wis mod + sneaks + feat bonuses (wep spec) + (on crit: add improved/overwhelming damage, add mass crits) + power attack/i.p.atk mode.

etc...one long ass formula.

ed: 250+ on a crit that didn't land dev due to saves. also one reason i avoid scythes >_> I perfer some kind of combat as opposed to demolishing things xD

MoshingChris wrote:

The top five AA builds I've played, played with or played against are:

28 Cleric 1 Bard 1 AA Zen Archering Caster Cleric.
21 Cleric 2 Bard 7 AA Dex/Cha Cleric (Ridiculous AC aswell as the mentioned damage and AB)
10(9)Monk 1(2)Wizard 19 AA
18 AA 10 Fighter 2 Bard
17 Rogue 2 Bard 11 AA

I don't rate the Bard/AA at all since running in and cursing and running back out to shoot is counter-intuitive, thus doesn't even rate an honorable mention in my book.

Here you go glyph.
But know that making a "Divine Archer" (Aka Cleric) is damn Feat starved.

Wait...an archer with whirlwind!...would it work and more importantly,would it be worth it? [on a straight ranger/rogue]

Nope.

Thanks for the heads up,wondered why I hadnt heard of it before!

Very_Svensk wrote:

Squishy.

Not really, low HP, yeah... but her AC was pretty good. I can't remember exactly what her AC was, but 51 sticks out in my mind.

TeroSNS wrote:

I bet he meant about the said 120 damage, it comes from the solid plusses from weapons and arcane archer enchant arrow, but most of it comes from crazy sneak attack which is sometihng like 6d6 or something like that. although I bet as he bragged with 120 damage, I believe he forgot to say "it was a crit".

Also not really. Most of the damage did come from sneaks, but that wasn't a crit hit, that was just a really solid regular hit. It took a series of damage rolls that were all really high, though. Like 5's or 6's on all the sneaks, 11 or 12 on the 1d12 bonus damage and so on and so on to get there.

Considering the crit range of a bow, it's kinda silly to talk about damage in terms of crits. Instead, it should be talked about downrange fire power. 5 or more attacks thrown downrange at ridiculous AB dealing between 60-something (on the lowest end, I think) and 120-something on the highest end, that's a pretty nasty cannon.

Glyph wrote:

hm...zen, point blank, high sneaks, overwhelming crit...could make an archer do a fair peice on its own, before items, and AA bonuses.

120 on a crit isn't that high up there, you could probably scrape it with pure damage if you have enough everything to increase raw damage. the most i've seen on a crit is around 250+, add whirlwind and my god you are laughing.

damage is something like...[weapon 1d8 for ex.] + str/dex/wis mod + sneaks + feat bonuses (wep spec) + (on crit: add improved/overwhelming damage, add mass crits) + power attack/i.p.atk mode.

etc...one long ass formula.

ed: 250+ on a crit that didn't land dev due to saves. also one reason i avoid scythes >_> I perfer some kind of combat as opposed to demolishing things xD

power attack doesn't work for ranged, methinks.

ainjyll wrote:

Considering the crit range of a bow, it's kinda silly to talk about damage in terms of crits. Instead, it should be talked about downrange fire power. 5 or more attacks thrown downrange at ridiculous AB dealing between 60-something (on the lowest end, I think) and 120-something on the highest end, that's a pretty nasty cannon.

that's why people should tell the damage range, not just maximum damage and/or crit damage, which gives a totally wrong picture of it.

TeroSNS wrote:

that's why people should tell the damage range, not just maximum damage and/or crit damage, which gives a totally wrong picture of it.

Agreed in most cases. Builds with huge crit ranges can be discussed in terms of crits because you'll be getting a lot of them. AA's, however, aren't one of those builds.

Ok,was trudelling about with my Dwarf Hamish last night and managed too actually get in some dwarf rp....now hammys only a std ftr/cot/rog build[excellant tho,thx too here]

And im thinking of making another ,a bit more intricate too play.

1: Cleric of Vergadin,symbol gold coin,domains:trade luck dwarf trickery.

So domains of trickery...and it says they travel more than most ,travel
warhammer and board,fullplate[maybe chain,dunno]

On page 2 here theres pigeons advice,but its not for a dwarf.so of the 2.
24 cleric/4 ftr/2 rogue
26 cleric/2 ftr/2 rogue which would suit best? and could cot be swapped for ftr? carrying on the cleric theme?

Or can someone point me at the builds for dwarfs,cos I spent hours clicking through last night.

He,d be a cunning yet hounerable foe,with a heart of gold towards his kin and others in trouble,but with a hard nose for buisness.

OR,Ive never played a barb before,is a Barb/cot mix playable and once again can some one help me out with a dwarf angled build please?

Any help appreciated

Very_Svensk wrote:

But know that making a "Divine Archer" (Aka Cleric) is damn Feat starved.

Quoted for truth.

Yeh. A heads-up before people make Divine archers.

You need about ~11 Feats Pre-Epic, Where elves/Half-Elves have 7 Feats to spare.
This means you may have to steal a few Epic Feats. =(((

aye I know I semi- have one -_- zen at least, more caster than archer though.

crit range is just kinda important if your looking for dev crits, better to use something that can hit than praying each time you go into combat. damage range, well like I said, its a long ass forumla, and damage ranges from zero (damage resistance etc) to your weapons maximum, far too many factors to take into account to say "this build will do X amoutn of damage, everytime, within this range, without fail" its not so simple.

Glyph wrote:

aye I know I semi- have one -_- zen at least, more caster than archer though.

crit range is just kinda important if your looking for dev crits, better to use something that can hit than praying each time you go into combat. damage range, well like I said, its a long ass forumla, and damage ranges from zero (damage resistance etc) to your weapons maximum, far too many factors to take into account to say "this build will do X amoutn of damage, everytime, within this range, without fail" its not so simple.

It's really not all that hard for melee weapons. For example, a longsword does 1d8 damage. Let's say the character has a STR of 18.

For mundane damage, you're looking at 1d8 + 4. Now, just take your lowest damage, 5, and your highest damage, 12. Add them together and you get 17. Divide by 2 and you've got 8.5. That's your average damage using no buffs and mundane gear. For a Longsword with +4 enhancement and 1d6 sonic you're looking at a formula more like 1d8 (sword) + 4 (STR modifier) + 4 (enchantment bonus) + 1d6 (sonic damage). This makes your average 16. You can work crits in, too. However, that makes the formula a bit more complicated and if you're counting on landing crits for your build to succeed, you should probably rethink your build.

I personally think that it's completely legit to say that a build will average X amount of damage per hit using easily available gear and against an enemy with no resistances/immunities.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Yeh. A heads-up before people make Divine archers.

You need about ~11 Feats Pre-Epic, Where elves/Half-Elves have 7 Feats to spare.
This means you may have to steal a few Epic Feats. =(((

Not true at all.

You only need

Point Blank, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Div Might, Div Shield, Extend Spell and Maximise for the Dex Based Div Archer

or

PBS, WF, Zen Archery, SF, GSF, Extend and Maxmimise for the Casty feller.

Imp Critical isn't that great since bows can't be keened.

You can aquire rapid shot on a cloak and add +3 Fort +1 Cha since you do not require deflection AC.

The reason Divine Archers don't work generally is because folks always grab at Zen Archery which is entirely bothersome to use and the 24 Cleric 4 fighter 2 rogue dex based chap while hitting at 3 AB less, strikes with 3 damage more. Effectively leaving only your arrow damage to differentiate (however it is a major difference).

Also earlier mention of 220 crits on an AA.

My Monk AA and Ragis Fighter AA both hit crits in that realm quite alot. Hell even Ragi's AA/RDD hits that type of damage regularly.

OK, I'm currently levelling a shadowdancing warrior. Pre-epic, he'll be 12 F / 4 Brd / 4 SD. Overall, he'll be 18 F / 7 SD / 5 Brd, with Dev Crit. As a strength build, my Dex won't get over 12 base (starts at 13 for Dodge and Mobility, then loses 1 Dex due to race). Assuming +6 to Dex from items, and wearing Scale to maximize the dex bonus while minimizing the armor check penalty, his base Hide score will be 50 (33 base +4 Dex - 2 armor +15 from feats)...so probably around 65-70 with items. Is this a high enough score to reasonably expect to catch some critters / players flat-footed for ease of striking? He's a rapier user, so if I hit I crit...or close enough that I'm happy with it.

The epic area critters will spot you. As far as PC's go, well... they will or they won't. Most of Amian PC's either have zero spot or a ton of spot because there's not much use in half-assing that stat.

Also, it shouldn't be that hard to get to your +50 from items. There's plenty of stuff out there for SD's that'll give you really decent if not outrageous bonuses to Hide and MS. So, you should be able to hit 100 with only a little bit of work.

Greetings and salutations!

I'm looking to make a "Fire Genasi", And seek some help in creating him.
I've skimmed through a few pages and it seems you need a concept and a first draft to get help, The you ...er... "Build Monkeys?" fix the details.

The Concept is this

Fire Genasi
Some kind of Cleric (As it's ma favorite class)
Chaotic Neutral / True Neutral (As it seems to fit the Race)
Deity will either be Tempus / Gond / Shaundakul / Gargos / Red Knight.

I want it to be a Caster Cleric, And i want to use one of amias 'Short Spears', And i want him to be able to use a crossbow.

Fire Genasi
STR 14
DEX 8
CON 10
WIS 18
INT 14(16) = 6 Skills i can max
CHA 8(6)

I want Concentration - Tumble - Spellcraft - Dicipline - Umd and Spot/or Listen

Feats i 'think' will be good are

1 - Zen archery
2 - Rapid reload
3 - Spell focus (evocation)
4 - Greater spell focus (evocation)
5 - Extend spell
6 - Maximize Spell
7 - Blind Fight?
8 - Dunno... May be going Halfling for the fun of it, Unsure yet so let us keep this feat option open.

I dont want any weapon focuses because i want to be versatile, just like a chaotic fire genasi. They pick a weapon up then loose patience in it...

feycourtier wrote:

Laalaalaa.

For the Cleric: Cleric25/Fighter4/Rogue1, Cleric23/Fighter6/Rogue1 or Cleric26/Fighter2/Rogue2. CL 25 makes you immune to dispel, and round rounds are juicy for clerics when you get used to them.

For Barb/CoT? Barb17/CoT10/Rogue3 is your pal here. Barb24/CoT4/Rogue2 works also, but I'd rather have Fighter with that.

Excellant thanks!

MoshingChris wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Yeh. A heads-up before people make Divine archers.

You need about ~11 Feats Pre-Epic, Where elves/Half-Elves have 7 Feats to spare.
This means you may have to steal a few Epic Feats. =(((

Not true at all.

You only need

Point Blank, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Div Might, Div Shield, Extend Spell and Maximise for the Dex Based Div Archer

or

PBS, WF, Zen Archery, SF, GSF, Extend and Maxmimise for the Casty feller.

Imp Critical isn't that great since bows can't be keened.

You can aquire rapid shot on a cloak and add +3 Fort +1 Cha since you do not require deflection AC.

The reason Divine Archers don't work generally is because folks always grab at Zen Archery which is entirely bothersome to use and the 24 Cleric 4 fighter 2 rogue dex based chap while hitting at 3 AB less, strikes with 3 damage more. Effectively leaving only your arrow damage to differentiate (however it is a major difference).

Also earlier mention of 220 crits on an AA.

My Monk AA and Ragis Fighter AA both hit crits in that realm quite alot. Hell even Ragi's AA/RDD hits that type of damage regularly.

How can you argue that crits aren't important; if you claim that crits come in the range of 220?
Hell, 5% Chance of critting 220 turns to 10% with Imp.Critical.
I'd say that's worth taking an epic feat for.

And Yes, It's feat starved. Especially the 28 Version.
Blind fight?
Spell Focus?
Greater Spell Focus?
Imp.Critical...
Silent spell?

cake, I recommend a sling over a crossbow if you go the Halfling route. With a sling you will get a +1 AB from being a Halfling and it will also afford you the use of a shield.

Last edited by hendrack on Mon, Oct 18 2010, 16:17 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Svensk, you get enough feats for the stuff you want to do as ranged cleric. Remember the discussion we had when you wanted to cram every feat possible in NWN into your cleric, on the first pages of Mk. IV? By definition every cleric is feat starved, its part of being it. Thus a cleric build is highly specialized for a certain range of task you want to do.

Quote:

PBS, WF, Zen Archery, SF, GSF, Extend and Maxmimise for the Casty feller.

In epic you need epic spell focus, an epic spell and an epic skill focus dump. I think I had all those with my zen cleric/AA. As a DEXer you wont need spell focus, since your DC will suck without much WIS.

Read Mosh's post again, carefully.

But we've agreed that blind fight is like, The best feat to get. Isn't it then logical to burn an Epic Feat to get blind fight?

On a ranged character? No.

Por Que?

Last edited by Glyph on Mon, Oct 18 2010, 16:37 PM, edited 1 time in total.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Blind_fight

other than 'melee shouldn't be reaching you anyway' I can't figure out the answer either...negating invisible peoples bonuses is great since half the server run about in GS/improved invis a quater of the time. (or hips, or with a blue/purple glow, or...(etc...))

ed:

Quote:

This feat affects both normal and touch attacks

The character gets to re-roll its miss chance percentile one time to see if it actually hits.

i think the problem would be this. still, i'd grab it.

AA:s need to be useful in melee as well.

Last edited by hendrack on Mon, Oct 18 2010, 16:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

No? Also, its a high level cleric, useful by default in melee. You need to be useful to not die when the occasional monster gets through, but you don't need blind fight for that. I also spot a fail on play style then. With cleric, if you want to go melee, go melee. If you want to go ranged, go ranged. Stick with it. Jack of All Trades fail with cleric.

So, To elaborate - You, Hendrack, mean that since the Shooter isn't going to engage in melee the feat is useless?

Then obviously, You need to pick up Called Shot, For that One time in ten where a mob/Player goes after you.
Or you have to runrunrunrun

hendrack wrote:

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

OK, I'm currently levelling a shadowdancing warrior. Pre-epic, he'll be 12 F / 4 Brd / 4 SD. Overall, he'll be 18 F / 7 SD / 5 Brd, with Dev Crit. As a strength build, my Dex won't get over 12 base (starts at 13 for Dodge and Mobility, then loses 1 Dex due to race). Assuming +6 to Dex from items, and wearing Scale to maximize the dex bonus while minimizing the armor check penalty, his base Hide score will be 50 (33 base +4 Dex - 2 armor +15 from feats)...so probably around 65-70 with items. Is this a high enough score to reasonably expect to catch some critters / players flat-footed for ease of striking? He's a rapier user, so if I hit I crit...or close enough that I'm happy with it.

There are a couple of problems with your final build. By ending at 7 SD, you're not going to get the best SD gear from the store in the Academy. You're also ending the build on a bad multiple in terms of BAB, since rogue-types follow the 3/4 progression. Ditto on ending at 5 Bard. You'd be much better off going 4 Bard/8SD, as it would mean an extra point on BAB.

My hide/MS scores are currently around 70 with gear, and I can sneak around most things, however odd things will still spot me - hellhounds, orcish archers, and cleric spot builds that I have noticed.

I'm about to level to 20. Thus far I am a 6 rogue/10 SD/3 fighter dual wielder. I've never had a character with epic feats before. How should the rest of the build go? My original plan has been to take one more fighter level and the remaining levels in rogue, which would leave me at 4 fighter/10 SD/16 Rogue.

Advice?

I understand the whole 'its a cleric too' thing but why does it have to be adequate at melee aswell? its already feat starved as has been said, you'd need to waste more to improve what in other cases would be called a gimmick, ie. non monks using fists

take prowess, be semi good at everything =)

ed: regarding the fighter/rouge/sd build, you could grab 13 sd for the epic shadow summon feat, you could go the better route with rouge and grab epic dodge amongst other things, and unless you missed weapon specialization at fighter level 4 the only real bonus there is hp...ah, waking up slow...yea grab one more fighter level and weapon spec in your chosen weapon for bonuses.

ed2: what you said sounds good. if you want to play with it, press esc on amia, save character to HD, and open up a character creator mod, that way it saves the pain of not meeting pre-requisites for stuff your after.

gah totally not with it just yet....regarding the other build mentioned, 10 SD nabs you improved evasion for free, as well as interesting RP oppourtunitys, and bonus gear.

VinceKlortho wrote:

By ending at 7 SD, you're not going to get the best SD gear from the store in the Academy.

Not true. You won't get to talk to the merchant, but you can use the gear they sell. You just have to get a buddy with 10 levels of SD to get you the gear.

In actuality, the build I have in mind is 'optimal' at F10 / 6SD / 4Brd pre-epic, giving a base AB of 17. I take Epic Prowess, EWF, EWS, and Armor Skin on Fighter levels in epic, Great Strength I, ESF - Hide, Overwhelming Crit, and Dev Crit on regular feats and voila! BAB of 40 before enchantment / attack bonus. May not be Superstar Great, but I think it'll work...also maximize the saves that way (F17 R18 W18 w/o gear). He's a Warrior that can HiPS; not a Shadowdancer who can swing a sword. I didn't clarify very well earlier.

That being said, I wasn't aware that there was a shop at the Academy run by a snob...so it may take some work / extra cash to get The Cool Gear, but I can stand it. The biggest issue was the ending Hide score and whether or not it would be as useful as I'd hoped, and it sounds like it will.

Very_Svensk wrote:

So, To elaborate - You, Hendrack, mean that since the Shooter isn't going to engage in melee the feat is useless?

Then obviously, You need to pick up Called Shot, For that One time in ten where a mob/Player goes after you.
Or you have to runrunrunrun

THis is the reason that way back when i told you the cleric/aa just isn't that good, and you swore til you were blue that it was. On the flipside those builds that i mentioned all work extremely well in the AA's main function and that is as a support character. +5 AC for all, some spells, loads of healing, GS and a massive amount of damage downrange at 55AB.

Divine Archers as soloers are gimmicks and exploiters, if you want one you are better of requesting arrows and working with a more feat savvy build.

I'll also point out that hendrack has had the heaviest hitting ranged character without sneaks that i've seen on this server. And it wasn't an AA so i'd listen to him if i were you.

OK, tired of talking around this build, so here it is:

Mulan

S 18 (26 STR at 28th lvl; all bonuses to STR)
D 13 (12 after sub applied)
C 10
W 9 (10 after sub applied)
I 14
Ch 8

1: Fighter1 - LoH, Dodge, Mobility
2: Brd1
3: Fighter2 - WF - Rapier, Stealthy
4: Fighter3
5: Fighter4 - WS - Rapier
6: Fighter5 - Blindfight
7: Brd2
8: Shd1
9: Shd2 - SF - Hide
10: Shd3
11: Shd4
12: Shd5 - Iron Will
13: Shd6
14: Fighter6 - PA
15: Fighter7 - Toughness
16: Fighter8 - Cleave
17: Brd3
18: Fighter9 - Imp Crit - Rapier
19: Fighter10 - Great Cleave
20: Brd4
21: Fighter11 - Great Str I
22: Shd7
23: Fighter12 - EWF - Rapier
24: Fighter13 - ESF - Hide
25: Fighter14 - EWS - Rapier
26: Fighter15
27: Fighter16 - EWP, Over Crit - Rapier
28: Fighter17
29: Fighter18 - Dev Crit
30: Brd5 - Armor Skin

Before we get to it, I took the classes this way knowing I lose 1AB vs 12/4/4. I make up for it with better saves, and Epic Prowess in Epic levels.

Here's my dilemna: do I get more consistent damage / playability by dropping PA, Cleave, and Great Cleave pre-epic in favor of Exotic (for bastard sword) and IKD? That would also result in swapping OC / DC for 2 more Strength, also earning me +1AB overall (40 vs 41 with plain steel)

So...Dev Crit? OR IKD, higher base weapon damage, and +1AB and damage?

Do you do over 100 damage on a critical hit consistently, you toothpick crit range abusing rapier whore? Over 80, even? 75? A shadowdancer with 13 dex? A bard with 8 cha and no perform? I wash my hands of you and your build!

12 DEX actually, Tormie.

Yeah, that build reeks of strong cheese. I'd at least switch bard for rogue. You'll get all the tumble and Hide/MS you need and you'll get some sneaks for the change. It's not like taking bard will get you any spells or even a remotely worthy bard song.

.... Wait... don't you need 13 DEX for Dodge? After your subrace gets applied you only have 12 DEX, which means your build really does reek of abuse. I'm going with Tormak!

Wow...sorry. I'll go build a 25 Cleric / 1 Brd / 4 DD...perhaps a 28 Sor / 1 Pal / 1 Rog... :roll:

I didn't take Rogue because Bard has better saves pre-epic. It's still a 'tumble dump' class: I'm just using the saves, as well. It also allows me to qualify for SD, which fits the caracter concept and style of combat I wanted to use. You can't tell me that the builds listed all over this thread don't look to accomplish everything possible with the class combos used. This one is no different. But hey, thanks for the input: some people like mozzarella, some dig provolone...but the whole thread is about The Cheese.

No, it is not, but thank you for misconstruing the real purpose of the thread.

Mmmmmm...Cheese...

And here I thought 'the real purpose of the thread' was to post builds for advice...what, pray, is it's purpose? I guarantee I can justify, with background story, the classes chosen for this build. In fact, it doesn't require 'draconic blood', 'mysterious training', or 'The Hand of The Gods'. This is what it boils down to: there are 'acceptable' cheese builds, and 'unacceptable' cheese builds.

...but it's all cheese. Goat, Head, or Dairy: still cheese.

As I said, thanks for the 'advice'. I now return the thread to it's acceptable corner-sneakink AA, melee-cleric w/tumble-dump, 'I-devoted-my-life-to-Helm-for-1-level-to-get-the-save-bonus-while-learning-acrobatics' sorceror builds. Have a GREAT day!

OP Does have a point. :!:

Don't cry, it's only making things worse.

I'm a Big Boy: I don't cry. Just stating a fact. A game, ANY game, isn't enough to get my blood pressure up. I think it's funny. Funny like a clown, funny 'Ha-Ha'...or maybe just 'funny'.

Good, gooooood

Just checkin.
Also, I think the point is that the thread is for non-cheesy help with builds. There unacceptable cheese and bearable cheese, but definitely not acceptable cheese. Bearable cheese the the sort that goes on for one reason or another and you can't really stop it. But, then, there's the bearable cheese that is supported by RP and IC experiences, which rocks hard =D

But as for the build, if you are going for it then I say Rogue over Bard. it makes more IG sense, as you won't be performing or anything, and Rogue is a tad better and all that jazz for what you want.

Also, I have a STR based Fighter/Rogue/SD with a 14 DEX. But I have gear that jumps that to 24ish when I put it on (or I just rock 28 STR). So a low base DEX SD is more or less fine, really. It's just not optimized, that's all

The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

Who is online