Hey guys! I'm here to tell you about Kelly and his merry followers!

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Characters:
Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues
Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia

Some factions (Red Wizards, cough cough) feel like they have to, at least initially, be done oocly.

Only newly created PCs can join, generally, as they have to be authentic Mulan from Thay. How many PCs can you search for ingame that 'happen' to be Mulan?

However, I never let them in the faction without at least interviewing the prospective member ICly. Thats where the IC recruitment comes in.

It's naive to think you can seperate IC and OOC and treat them as self-contained modes. They're in a relation to eachother, even by virtue of the name alone: they determine your relationship to the character, the storytelling device. Do you advance the story and game play in character, or out of character? It's not as simple as "IC = Part of Roleplay, OOC = Not Part of Roleplay." Both are RPG terms. If OOC wasn't supposed to exist, the term wouldn't exist. After all, you don't say you're OOC when you go to the store or cook dinner. You say you're OOC only when you play and there's a Character involved that you can be in or out of.

To make absolute distinctions is naive and positivistic. This has been realized in the whole of modern life. Even scientists agree that their work can never be purely objective and that to ensure the best possible results, they have to acknowledge and accept their subjectivity in order to evaluate its effect. I think it's high time for roleplayers to grow up and realize the same thing: you can preach absolute immersion and deny the role of OOC communication, but all that does is turn you blind to the undeniable OOC basis that everything you do has. You can only take a role because you're a real person. You can only play a game because you're a real person. If you actually were the character in game, you wouldn't be taking a role, and you wouldn't be playing a game. IC is impossible without OOC.

This has very little to do with the practical side of the topic. However, I hope it forever buries the "Roleplay should be 100%" fallacies, because a fallacy is all they are.

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Then I'm naive and a positivist.

The only OOC action I've ever felt the serious need to make concession for is setting up an IRL meeting time for events. since game time/RL time doesn't coincide well.


There's obviously some need for OOC, DC Requests/DM stuff etc.

But as far as in game activities/in character activities? I honestly would say no. The amount of 'OOC' required for it is small, if non-existent in most cases.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Theres a big difference, IMHO, between recruiting OOC and advertising OOC.

Recruitment is: Make a character for the Doomslayers and your in.
Advertisement is: Make a character and we'll see what happens.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Dwagin: then you're just deceiving yourself, really. You're like the scientist who insist that the information he creates is objective and universal. You can insist that everything you do is purely IC, but we know it's a lie. It's simply not possible. You're a player directing a character, you are not that character. There's a certain ideal balance to achieve, and whatever it is, it must contain both IC and OOC because they simply can't exist without one another. Probably that ideal contains very little OOC, but you can't make a dogmatic ruling. You have to examine every case individually. "100% IC" is not only factually incorrect, but it's also dangerous in that it makes you blind to the OOC factors that really affect the game, whether your acknowledge them or not.

Besides, this is not about whether it's "necessary" to recruit OOC. Few things are outright necessary, if you really want to work around it. This is about whether it's warranted, in what kind of situations, and how it compares to other alternatives.

Mosh, that may be true but it's somewhat irrelevant semantics. I'm sure nobody in this topic who's supporting the option of OOC recruiting has that kind of automatic induction in mind. Even that is warranted in some cases, of course: new factions with PCs who share a background, for example. But I think OOC recruitment here means "encouraging people OOC to join your group." It shouldn't be expected, and it might be cool if it wasn't the norm, but you should certainly go for it if you feel like it.

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People always say, "The point of a role-playing game is to role play", and I ALWAYS say, "wrong! The point of a role-playing game is the same as any other game - to have fun!"

Naturally, being a rping game, our main method of having fun is by rping. But it is just silly to think that the point of the game is to rp, and that it somehow takes priority over enjoyment. The two very often go together, rping and enjoyment, but not 'always', and in cases where they differ, ooc mechanics and enjoyment of the game should take priority, as they do in 'any' game.

If you play clue with your friends every Saturday night, and have figured out that by house ruling a certain mechanic of the game, you've increased the fun you're having, then you would continue to play with the house rule. You wouldn't feel compelled to play as its written to the detriment of your own enjoyment.

So it is with Amia and all rping servers. If at all a situation comes up where rping 'hardcore' or 'attempted 100%' actually leads to the detriment of enjoyment, ooc mechanics should kick in and take priority over the rp, so that everyone is having a good time.

In fact, such mechanics are 'already' in place on Amia, by the DMs themselves. If I wanted to be a hard core rper, I should be able to make a chaotice evil barbarian who ambushes travelers, regardless of their level, and just beat the snot out of them for kicks. He's chaotic evil. Its what he would do. In fact, he is an entirely valid character concept. Yet, if I really did this, I would be considered a -griefer-, and would be frowned upon. But the point is that my action isn't discouraged due to poor rp. Its discouraged because it spoils the fun for other players 'despite' its rp, by ruining their hunting trips and giving them major hassle. Here we see an OOC mechanic taking presidence over hardcore rp.


Another simple example, is pvp. Omg, pvp is LOADED with ooc mechanics taking priority over hardcore rp. The whole rule with having to allow the other party an IC reason for backing down? This is there purely for the players who DON'T like pvp, and generally want to avoid it. Maybe they're uncompetitive, or squemish, or have some other reason for simply NOT enjoying pvp. For some players, it is simply not their thing, and they generally have a poor time with the game whenever they're engaged in it. Instead of turning these players away entirely and saying "Sorry, this is a hardcore rping server, so you should expect pvp even if you don't like it," the staff throws in this ooc mechanic of giving the option of almost always being able to back down from pvp.

In fact, even the players are generally mature and nice enough to abide by this rule. More often than not, a player warns me oocly through a pm about pvp, often even asking my permission for it. I appreciate it greatly, and have gotten into the habit of doing the same thing for other players whenever I'm about to initiate pvp with them. I simply call it: Mature players on Amia who are concerned with -everyone- having a good time, and are therefore willing to put aside their hardcore rping somewhat, just to make sure that the other party is ok with pvp. While I'm at it; I just want to say great job to everyone on Amia - some of the most mature players I've seen on 'any' server have been on this one.

Going down the list, my personal favorite is the rule that says that a PC cannot be held against the PLAYER's will for a period of more than 24 hours. If the player so demands, IC arrangments must be MADE to accodomate that PC's release or escape from capture. There could be all kinds of hardcore rping reasons suggesting otherwise - suggesting that the PC in question should be locked up indefinitely. Yet, an OOC mechanic has been implemented to 'arrange' or 'shape' the rp so that the PC can be released. This is done simply so that the player can enjoy playing his character again. Because its just simply 'assanine' to keep a player from playing his or her PC. Again, this mechanic is in there to address the OOC concern that keeping a player from indefinitely playing their PC is likely to piss them off and make them not want to play on Amia anymore. This mechanic tries to incorporate IC elements, ie, by 'arranging' the rp to that it leads to escape or release; but its overall motive is satisfying an OOC concern.

I could go on, but the bottem line: Of course ooc is a major componant to enjoying Amia. And in fact, ooc mechanics 'are' implemented which trump hardcore rping, because it is simply recognized that hardcore rping 'can' lead to the detriment of enjoying the game. The purpose of a role playing game is NOT to role play. It is to have fun.

Just saying.. I think you took what Dwagz said and put the "100% IC" in the post. It wasn't there. Dwagz said that obviously some OOC is inevitable, but that avoiding it at all costs is what he/she likes to do. (Sorry that I don't remember your gender, Dwagz.) That doesn't make him/her an absolutist, just someone who strives to be as close to that as is manageable and possible. To WISH for absolutism to be possible is not actually BEING an absolutist. You say there's a certain "ideal balance" to achieve, but that doesn't mean the balance has to be 50% OOC and 50% IC. You said so yourself. It can be 2% OOC and 98% IC, if that works. Why take such a condescending attitude towards someone else who wasn't saying what you're even talking about?

And I don't think it's naive to wish for things that are impossible. If you only put yourself wishing for things that you "think are possible," that's just limiting yourself.

Have never recruited OOC, and will never recruit OOC. Only thing I have done OOC in recruitment is ask around about the players level of commitment to RP and factions. Mostly cause I'm sick to death of recruiting people who will piss off because I've gone inactive for a few weeks. I'd love to see some intiative.

The low numbers of the Order of the Flaming Blade is the consquence of my choice as a Faction Leader. Recruiting IC is hard, and requires constant effort, but personally I won't lower myself to the level that I resort to OOC BS to gain members.

As for how I view other factions that do it. I think it's crap, but not much I can do about it. So whatever.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I've said it, Yurell said it and now Selvec supports it. If you don't know what its like to be in the Aussie timezone, you can't comment or understand how difficult it is to ICly be recruited or recruit others.

Yanks and Euros have it easy for everything.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

I have lots of Aussie friends?

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Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio

I was specifically talking about how it's invalid to dismiss OOC because it's OOC. You always have to offer concrete arguments of the case in question, and that was my entire point. Nobody who's been against this "OOC recruitment/advertisement" has offered any thoughtful analysis of the actual consequences of the two options. Well, other than that you won't be taken seriously.

What Dwagin said is quite clear, assuming she read my post, regardless of what she added later on:




It doesn't get much clearer than this, to be honest.

Also, what Snape said. Exactly spot on.

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Snape has a fundamental flaw, however, in that we are not all here to have fun. I am not here to have fun, although I understand that many are, and I am perfectly capable of viewing it from that vantage point, however, I have a different personal perspective. That is why I hold to my opinions while simultaneously acknowledging, in a very unpositivist and non-naive manner, that an OOC scaffolding exists, just like a writer must acknowledge that an entire narrative is not confined to the head of a ball-point pen, and an entire story is more than a nerve-directed stroke of keys on a keyboard.

Fair enough. However, whatever your reasons, they need to be explicated and the consequences evaluated if you intend to build a valid argument on them. (I know you, personally, don't intend to impose your standard and motivation on everyone else, so whether you choose to get into that debate is up to you.)

The fact stands, "IC=Good" or "RP=100% IC" is not a trivial truth but a positive statement you have to justify and defend. It's not enough to call other approaches retarded, to say they're unnecessary or that they don't serve the ultimate goal of the game, whatever that may be. If that's all you can say on the matter, you don't make a very convincing case. Especially if you're not just justifying your own behavior but applying your standards to everyone else, too. Like many of the judgemental posts in the topic do. I'm not satisfied with them.

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The day I'm forced to defend the fact that roleplaying is good on a roleplaying server is the day I leave because this place will cease to be what I so desperately hope it can live up to its potential to be.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I applaud your eloquence. That wasn't my point, though, so let's take a less controversial example: if you say "OOC=Bad" unconditionally and to everyone, you need to justify it somehow. How can anyone evaluate your opinion, other than say they agree or disagree, if you don't provide the arguments that led you to your conclusion? Clearly, there are many good reasons for acknowledging and incorporating OOC elements in your RP. Or so it seems judging by the posts in the topic; maybe we're wrong, but that has to be shown by studying actual consequences, not abstract doctrines.

What are the actual reasons for trying to keep all OOC out of the game, impossible as it may be? Enough with the rhetorics and principles, IMO, and more substance. How does OOC advertisement/recruiting (synonyms for the purposes of this topic) actually ruin the game?

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QFE.

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Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio

I'd just like to add that 'fun' is a concept relative to the individual and cannot be used as an argument in this case.

I'm in Australia and the timezones are a pain in the backside; I'm just lucky that my work allows for a flexibile schedule. So, OOC co-ordination for meetings makes sense.

Just to reiterate: Proliferation of knowledge across IC/OOC lines seems to me to be the issue here. I disagree with the assertion that IC and OOC cannot be seperated. It's just a matter of sitting back and thinking through what you're about to do or say.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

How is this relevant to what is being discussed here?

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

But this is a game. I thought most games do have the purpose of having a good time? Ie fun? What else would you play a game for, if 'not' to have fun? We may differ in the method of achieving said fun, for as billy pointed it out, it means something different to each of us. But the objective still remains the same. At least, as I see it. What other purpose do you have for playing the game? I'm just curious.

Also, although fun is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, it can of course be used in an argument, due to its sheer relevence at the topic being discussed at hand. The point (again, correct me if I'm wrong, as Yoss has said in his post) of every game 'is' to have fun, a good time, to enjoy it. So, naturally, how one has fun 'should' be discussed and argued. In fact, I say it should be the ultimate center of the discussion.

How one acheives fun playing this game 'does' differ by the player, to some extent. That is why its 'improtant' to try and somehow have room for a vareity of players. If you want to put a standard on it, consider trying to appeal to the most player's sense of fun as possible.

Again, go back to the clue example. If said house rule caused four out of five players to have a tremendous time, and caused one player to have a slightly less fun time....the group should still roll with it.

Luckily in the case of these ooc mechanics, there is DEFINITELY room for each individual player and their needs, ie, their individual sense of fun. For the hardcore players who really want to take it 100% IC (somehow...) and recruit ICly purely, how does another player looking for potential faction members oocly ruin their enjoyment of the game?

You can't just dismiss 'having fun', simply due to how it differs by person. Making the game most enjoyable for as many players possible should, as with any game, be the prime objective.

Just want to also add that I of course think rping is good for the game. It IS a rping server. naturally, most players come here looking for rp. Of course its good for the game. Its great for it.


But to get caught up in some sort of dogma, that is, the dogma that rping is the 'only' thing that exists about the game that is fun and attractive, is just not good.

Heck, sometimes sitting back and hunting with friends, and holding conversations in party chat oocly, is what I prefer to do, simplybecause its laid back and enjoyable. Grinding, treasure hunting, talking about builds....they 'all' are parts of the game that are appealing, even if they are not all 100 % IC elements. And thats ok. Most good games 'do' have more than one treat to offer.

I believe I read somewhere in the forums that Amia was stated to 'appeal to as many gaming senses as possible', or something similar. It is a strength of a good game, not a weakness, so long as those senses do not contradict each other.

Whether we call it "fun", "satisfaction" or "fulfilling your ultimate goal", it is undeniable that behind all behaviour and beliefs, there's some deeper belief and motivation. Nobody role-plays for role-play's sake. And that's all I said. You don't actually say anything if you just automatically assume sticking IC is the only way and RP is defined by ignoring OOC. You state a belief whose rational basis you refuse to explicate and whose practical consequences you do not analyse. It's not enough. It's not an argument in any sense of the word.

Billytheid: you just said you can seperate IC and OOC by sitting back and thinking about it. How is that not mixing IC and OOC? You, a person out of character, consider what your character does. The fact that the two interact means that they're not self-sufficent. To seperate the two would mean you have to erase yourself from existence. I do not mean that RP needs OOC communication to work. I mean that in everything IC, there is some OOC aspect.

If we want to prove this on a semantic level: there is an inside only insofar as there is an outside. Whenever you say "inside", you only mean something in relation to the assumed "outside." It's this contrary nature that defines IC and OOC. One simply can't exist seperate from the other. It's not a matter of play style or taste, it's a logical inevitability. Of course, we can draw a variety of conclusions from this. Mine is that we should consider the effect each aspect has on the whole and decide the best course of action with a level head, rather than fanatically stick to a one side doctrine.


Fun is relative, but if it's the motivation for you playing the game, of course it should be used as an argument. It should be used as The Argument. Everything you use in your argument should have one aim: to determine the best possible course to your ultimate goal, whether it's fun or misery.

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My faction has recruited strictly IC, and quite successfully. I do break the 4th wall occasionally, to facilitate hunting when I am not in the mood for RP, but I don't like to.

This is my hobby, not a job, and, therefore, I prefer to do everything I can do IC, IC. I like to keep OOC to a minimum, and when I have to go OOC, I remember that not everyone appreciates it, and I keep it down low, out of respect.

I think that keeping it IC gives me the rp opportunity to catch infiltrators, and to be surprised.

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I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

Yeah. It doesn't. And my argument still stands under it, to be honest. You clearly wrote "to think you can" and I am arguing that point. Not the latter. It is not naive or positivistic to think you can do anything that logically seems impossible. I have to offer an argument for you about how it's possible? No, I don't. I don't want to argue that point, because I don't care about it. I haven't commented in this thread about my opinion on the matter, and my opinion is not Dwagin's. I think Dwagin simply said that one comment you quoted because she was making a dramatic point, attempting to show disagreement without getting into an argument about it. So I think you missed the point that she isn't actually naive or positivistic-- yet. That doesn't change that your comment back was condescending and limiting. Sure. Tell someone they are naive for actually treating it that way, but Dwagin specifically said after within the same post that she doesn't treat them as completely separate modes-- yet-- she just wants to be able to.

[/quote]

Don't tell anyone they are naive for thinking that they can be able to do something, if others could maintain a similar mindset.

I dont know about the rest of you, but I play NWN as though it were an actual (albiet digital and simplified) DnD table. I want to talk to the players and comment on things as we roleplay. I don't see an issue if folks look oocly for interest/members as long as things come together logically on the IC end of things.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I too, tend to see it as a 'digital DnD' table. Ooc comments, to some extent, abound with my rp, but I never feel that it detracts from the fun or the experience of the game.

Sometimes its even necessary, ie, if someone uses a word I don't understand as a player, I send them a tell asking them to explain so that I have a better picture.

Sometimes a player will even be ignorant of some lore-related topic for Forgotten Realms, myself included, in which case a brief ooc explanation is appropriate.

At the same time, I do understand the 'drive' people have to attempt to make IC immersion as total and 100% as possible. We use Amia, to an extent, as an escape from the real world. The less occ banter, the more immersed we feel, so we naturally try to optimize for as much IC as we can.

But even still, ooc, as is with any game, is a major unavoidable componant, imho.

But yes, I feel like I'm playing table top dnd 'online' very much when playing on Amia. I would also point out that the degree of rp, and the extent of immersion, is actually considerably greater on Amia than it is in my pnp games. But I think that is natural.

I mean, we -do- need to be careful enough not to go all out oocly, and let it totally drive our rp.

I think its just a balance one needs to find to be comfterable with, and either extreme is bad.

I RP for the sake that I enjoy RPing.

I log into Amia to RP, not chat, I have MSN for that.

If invited to a group while RPing, the first thing I do is put party chat in the combat log, and it gets minimized. In high scroll areas/big parties it is distracting, and I feel it detracts from my immersion. (I read fast enough to read everything.)

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

I too, love being able to switch the party chat over to the combat log. Brilliant.

I do not seek complete immersion in my character when I log on. I seek to co-perate with my fellow players to create an interesting story, which does imply getting to know my fellow storytellers.

The comparison to tabletop DnD was good.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

I like that, and agree.

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I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

We're just here for fun, if it helps the fun its good to go. Its not like this is art.

Send anyone claiming that their RPG activity is an art form my way, and I'll gladly stick a pin in their head and deflate it just to have the satisfaction of the popping sound that makes….One might play a game artfully, but that makes neither the game nor its play art.

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The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

We, as our actual selves, persist in our world 100% of the time. Outside the constraints of sleep and law, we have an almost unlimited ability to pursue whatever we desire.

Assuming that one did nothing put play Amia from the time they woke up to the time they went to sleep and slept 6 hours a day, their characters would spend 75% of their time on Amia. Considering most of us have other things to do with our time, I'd guess that the average playtime is probably between 4 and 6 hours a day. Meaning that our character is truly only existing between 17% and 25% of their day doing something that we can control on a second to second basis.

Yes, we can write stories and post them on the forums or just create them off the top of our head when asked what our character was doing while we weren't logged onto Amia, but the truth of the matter is that that particular character goes into a stasis chamber until we log back in with them or decide to partake in some forum RP about what they're doing.

What this means to me is that our time on Amia, and by transference, our character's lives, are limited. Thus, we, as players, do what we can to ensure that our time on Amia isn't spent wandering from area to area hoping in vein to run across that one PC we're looking for in the plethora of areas that they could possibly be in.

This is where the OOC comes in. Full-on recruitment on a completely OOC level is bad. Setting up a time and a place for PC's to meet (be it through PM's, MSN, tells, whatever) and engage in RP that may or may not lead to recruitment into whatever faction is in question, is good.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Although it's true that your character will only be in the game for a fraction of the average day, that is where factions really need to put the effort into recruiting characters. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should be jumping in every five minutes to tell people how great your faction is. That would be annoying. But neither should you be sitting back passively waiting for volunteers.

Advertising on the forums does have its plus points, but it's the people that are active and in the game that you want to look at, not all of them are going to be on the forums every day. Your recruitment has to be on the basis of how active and interested players are in game. You don't want to fill up your faction with people who will probably only log on with their faction character once a month. I don't know how active your faction members are, but in my opinion logging in once a week for at least a few hours should be the minimum. Real Life takes precedence, of course.

As for those secretive factions who would rather not tell just any character about what they really do, can you not (do you not already) have a front for the real organisation, so that you have time to tell which characters can be entrusted with the secret?

Doing most of the recruitment in-game may take longer, but there's always tomorrow. The more time you spend on the forums answering questions and arranging things, the more the time you actually have to spend in the game dwindles.

I realise that getting timezones to line up, getting players informed about the lore, and all that is problematic. But at least some of those problems have IC solutions which are preferable, for the same reason it is often said 'Why could you not have said that IC?'

Tormak is merely reminding you that half the fun is doing things IC, even if it does take more time.

How many times can you say that you have overrun the time you thought you were going to spend in-game? Because you were having so much fun you lost all track of time? Well then.

If one was to recruit strictly IC, that's all one would ever do. You'd log in, perhaps even catch a glimpse of some character you've been talking to on the player list. Off to the races we go as we try to hunt through every area on the entire server for this one character... or we take the lost child approach and stay in one spot, hoping against hope that the one PC we're hoping to find happens to wander by. Hours can go by on a completely fruitless endeavor and this could go on for days or weeks. I can't speak for anyone else, but to me, that's not fun at all, it's frustrating, and I'm here to have fun.

This is not to say that everything should be worked out OOC, either. There exists a fine balance between the OOC and the IC. Settling exact times is a lot easier to do OOC, for example, since IC'ly speaking our characters don't have different timezones. Even if both players are American there can be up to a 3 hour difference in times.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Not at all.

You meet someone, explains things for them. Tell them to get in contact with you at a later date if they wish to join.
They PM you, IC. You organise a time to meet, IC, and you meet. Then you recruit.

IC does not mean in game. It means In Character. Which includes stories, notices and in character PM's. You don't have to be on NWN to be IC. Your still IC if your posting a notice in "Pc Notices". A narrated story or diary entry in "PC Stories and Descriptions". A PM which acts as a message via Speedies, IC, or an entry in the faction forums. Again, IC.

Gods if I had to do everything in game I'd never get anything done...

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

That ^

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Sending a Tell and arranging to meet up with a character does have the advantage of speeding things up, and it does save you wasting your time if they're busy doing something else, but at the same time you lose something in the process.

It's up to you as players to decide how easy or hard it should be to get hold of someone. It's a big island - it shouldn't be too easy, but it shouldn't be too hard either.

If it's really important that your character talks to someone, then they should be able to do it without getting too much help by OOC means. There are ways to communicate with other PCs without being OOC. There are ways of finding out where characters are without being OOC. You just have to try them.

That all said, you don't have to intentionally make things harder than they have to be. If you have met a given character in the same place the last four times and this time because your memory is flaky you cannot remember where that is, it's not going to destroy roleplaying forever if you ask the other player where the usual meeting place is. Similarly, it's not going to destroy roleplaying to remind someone about the name of a character's spouse. You are going to forget these things now and then, better to admit that and get on with the roleplaying than pound your head against a desk for five minutes.

So, I take it that all the nay-sayers to my post have NEVER used OOC ever except to discuss random things that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anything dealing with Amia. To quote a famous dead poet, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much".





How exactly do you propose communicating your timezone IC'ly? You can say, "We'll meet at [insert place here] on the eleventh hour after sunrise" and everything will be hunky-dory IC. OOC, though... what time is "the eleventh hour after sunrise"? For me, that's about 6pm give or take. So, I log on at 6pm... oh, but the person I was supposed to meet isn't on EST... so, I ask again. How exactly do you propose communication timezones IC'ly?

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

OOC to gain players interest or recruitment in a faction doesn't bother me.


What really irks me is the couple standing next to each other quietly and not even whispering, but definitely sending each other tells of things that should be stated openly in game.

Tells about attacking others, which I've gotten from other players and I know other players get in turn...I tend to go out of myway to try not to respond.

Also...I hate just aout any OOC during deep moments of IC RP. Deep moments meaning really great RP that is very immerseful.....only to be ruined by the occassional //Lol...my doggy pee'd on me.

In party chat=ok
//Lol....my doggy pee'd on me, during a deep conversation=you just killed it


OOC tells to talk about meeting times or other important faction stuff= neccessity

OOC to organise meeting online isn't recruiting OOC. It's simply organizing a time to be online. Necessity of playing a video game. If you can't work out what timezone your in, then your playing the wrong game. And quite frankly, if you don't know your own timezone, I don't want you in my faction. Call it elitist or whatever. But it would cause massive issues down the track when organising events and meets, and I haven't got the time for someone who isn't willing to put in a little effort to figure out a good time to meet. IC wise, if the character isn't being responsible and willing to turn up for things the faction does, my character isn't going to want them in the group.

That's a statement that goes for everything I do on Amia. Recruitment, Factions or whatever, if your not willing to put in some effort back, I'm not going to put any effort into you.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Not if it's arranging a time to meet with a possible new recruit, it's not. Then it's using OOC means to recruit. Let's not pretty it up, it is what it is.



I don't know where that rant was going because I was talking about figuring out timezones from an IC standpoint which has nothing to do with whether or not the player behind the character knows their timezone... but you're missing my whole point, Selvac. Yet, you prove my case all the same. OOC is a necessity. It should be used to a minimum, yes. However, should someone feel bad for using it? No.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

For the record, I use RL times and dates when it matters to do so with the expectation that people will mentally and imaginatively translate on their own into something purely IC. There is a dating system in Forgotten Realms, but people don't know it, and it is dangerous to rely upon because time moves at the speed of plot and the rest of the time moves at the speed of RL time, thus, it can "shift and change" at a moment's notice.

In the same way that we use English to communicate in the imagined world when they don't actually speak English - it is merely the medium through which we, both artists and observers, influence and interpret. Or use idiomatic speech, or think in modern terms never ANACHRONISTICALLY (shame on you people who say it is anachronistic to do anything in FR when FR is not a perfect RL analog, and we have technology more advanced than our own existing alongside outmoded concepts long since vanished from our world all at the same time) but rather, instead, implausibly.

It is why I say the IC/OOC battle is a battle I choose not to fight, or rather, to fight in my own way, in a way that is logical and sensible without murdering my immersion or inviting shenanigans.

If a were to say to me, "Meet me at the docks tomorrow night, October 20th, at roughly 9pm EST," I would take the bolded part, immediately and instantly translate it into a setting-appropriate terminology in my own brain (after sundown tomorrow, around nine bells, and just assume the EST is a silent context that goes without saying like the formal "la" or "le"), and my immersion would never be threatened. Of course, no PC has ever said this to me, nor will they, probably. The player will probably irritate me, instead, by sending me a tell, which is player-communicating-to-player communication, rather than just put it in the character's mouth and expect me to mentally translate it into an acceptable construct of language, which I am more than capable of doing.

Before you respond, note that I am absolutely 100% aware that what I just said is completely absurd to your thinking, and it is why I am not casting it as an expectation I have of you or anyone else. So you don't really need to treat that as though I am pitching it as the ideal. I am just explaining what works for me and doesn't bother me, even some of you would never stand for a character literally speaking a modern date to you.

Which reminds me of something I've wanted to do for a while now...

I never said someone should feel bad using OOC methods. In fact, I said I don't care what people do otherwise. I did however say I personally think it's shit if people do recruit OOC, and it's my choice to recruit IC, and thus I accept the consequences of doing so. Which does mean reduced numbers in comparison to some other groups that have populated fast. Check the first post I made in this thread.

Definition of recruiting OOC: Calling in a mate, or another player, enticing or asking them to join a group all in OOC. Such as John, leader of the War Knights, asking his mate Bruce, to join his faction. Bruce then grabs his epic, goes in game, and becomes a War Knight, despite having no real reason IC to join, or even be accepted into the group.

That is OOC recruiting. That is what I hate. That is what I think is crap, and that is what I was talking about. Maybe that will clear things up and get you off my case finally. Since I'm getting a little fed up with having this back and forth in every blasted thread.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Uh... If you don't play a game for fun... Why do you bother playing at all? Is the real world really that hard?

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

If that is directed towards me, you have clearly forgotten that I do not play. I DM. Therefore, it is very incorrect for me to say that I play this game for the enjoyment, because I am not a player and haven't been once since it was pointed out to me that it is wrong for DMs to also be players...and, in my heart (or my head), I agreed.

I have my reasons for why I do what I do and some people (like Wolfking) have figured it out and some of them know because they need to know and the rest are in neither camp and are just making assumptions. I do not typically answer people directly, especially when they frame the question with your accusatory point.

And my reasons have nothing to do with how hard or easy the real world is - they really have nothing to do with it at all - and I resent the implication.

more a general sentiment I have seen from a few of the replies in the thread. Thank you though for the honest reply. Also, no implication was meant it was more of a joke than an accusation, in which case, my apologies if it did not come across as such.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Forgive me my brutal posturing, then. These peacock feathers have a mind of their own.

Wear loose fitting clothing

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."