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Hmmm so I need to level my main character, but I have run into an impasse
Does Weapon Finesse work in NWN for bastard swords?
Everything I read, and thinking logically, says it does not, but I want to be sure before I take it for no reason or dismiss it prematurely.

Thanks!

Hey there everyone. I am trying to figure out how to make a character that is essentially a tracker. I was thinking class wise in terms of primarily Ranger, with either rogue, Harper scout, and/or Arcane archer thrown in somewhere.

He is going to be someone who spends more time in the woods than in the cities, and someone who relies on bows, stealth, and understanding the woods to survive.

I've never played any of those classes so all this would be new to me.

Naivatkal wrote:

Hmmm so I need to level my main character, but I have run into an impasse
Does Weapon Finesse work in NWN for bastard swords?
Everything I read, and thinking logically, says it does not, but I want to be sure before I take it for no reason or dismiss it prematurely.

Thanks!

No

Hrothmus wrote:

Hey there everyone. I am trying to figure out how to make a character that is essentially a tracker. I was thinking class wise in terms of primarily Ranger, with either rogue, Harper scout, and/or Arcane archer thrown in somewhere.

He is going to be someone who spends more time in the woods than in the cities, and someone who relies on bows, stealth, and understanding the woods to survive.

I've never played any of those classes so all this would be new to me.

Ranger 23/Bard 2/ AA 5 Is pretty dandy.

Last edited by hendrack on Sat, Sep 18 2010, 23:14 PM, edited 2 times in total.

25 ranger and 3 AA. You dont get nottin from those 2 aa levels except prestige and +1. But 25 ranger gives you a better pet, and +1 to your stuff vs favoured enemies.

You can skip the AA part, make it 25 ranger 4 fighter 1 rogue and give it Zen archery + WIS base. You spot everything and hit everything on the server with throwing axes. Epic weapon spec saves the damage output.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

I need a list of all the spells/effects that decrease other's saves.

Prayer, Doom, Battletide, & Mindfog (will). There might be more.

Thanks for confirming that.

Hmmm looks like my str/dex switch build will require the use of a longsword or some such weapon.
I wonder if I should go crazy and get both two-weap fighting and ambi.

Essentially, I am aiming for a 14 fighter/10 rogue/6 SD (before you say cheese, it would have been 5 SD even if we got HiPS at level 1). I have two sets of gear that swaps a 26 STR for a 27 DEX, hence why I want Weapon Finesse. After this level I will have four more feats to get, so I'm thinking I can spare three for the about feats, then get Toughness and be fairly rounded out and satisfied. Dunno, though, as I would only dual wield in 'Dex mode', so I don't know if it would really be worth it (and I would likely do longsword/shortsword or something). He's already proficient and specialized with a bastard sword, so I'd lose +1 AB and +2 DMG, but that's not that bad, really.

So should I really worry about dual wielding, or just get something more useful?

If you're going dex, lose some fighter levels, take some more rogue, get epic dodge.

Forgot something: Weap Finesse will work if I use a longsword as DEX geared, so that's cool.

Also, to clarify:
I will actually use two sets of gear. My 'main' gear is STR based and will be used a lot. My stealthy gear is going to be DEX based, and used for... certain things. So I won't totally give up being STR based, I'm just crazy and switching between them for versatility. I won't have enough base DEX for epic dodge, you need at least 25 DEX. I only have 14 base DEX.

Why are you bothering with weapon finesse with only 14 base dex? Is this a caster or something. Dont bother with finesse if your str is higher then your dex.

Naivatkal wrote:

So should I really worry about dual wielding, or just get something more useful?

Weapon finesse might not even be necessary if your STR is higher than your DEX. What are you dual wielding? Some things to consider: there are items that gives you TWF & Ambidexterity... it would take up a couple of spots in your gear and you won't have Improved TWF. But if you're mainly carrying around a bastard sword and shield most of the time, you can probably make do without investing feats to dual wielding.

Also longsword doesn't work with weapon finesse. Dagger, handaxe, kama, kukri, light hammer, mace, rapier, shortsword, sickle, whip, and unarmed strike only.

I realize that, but as I mentioned with DEX based gear on my DEX rockets up to 23, which is higher than my base STR of 17, which is what it would be after replacing certain gear with my second set.
I would be switching to take advantage of the fact that I have ranks in DEX skills and I would be switching to low check penalty armor to promote better Hide/MS checks, as well as allowing the use of Tumble properly.
So, yeah Weap Finesse would not be useful with a STR 26/Dex 14, but with STR 17/DEX 23+ it would certainly be.That would, of course, require me to get a spare sword that is compliant with Weap Finesse.

ticket wrote:

Weapon finesse might not even be necessary if your STR is higher than your DEX. What are you dual wielding? Some things to consider: there are items that gives you TWF & Ambidexterity... it would take up a couple of spots in your gear and you won't have Improved TWF. But if you're mainly carrying around a bastard sword and shield most of the time, you can probably make do without investing feats to dual wielding.

Also longsword doesn't work with weapon finesse. Dagger, handaxe, kama, kukri, light hammer, mace, rapier, shortsword, sickle, whip, and unarmed strike only.

Aye, that is correct. Well, then, I'd go shortsword or something on that list (plus dagger if dualed, though I'm doubting I will go for that now).
For the first bit of your post, I hope I explained it above ^.^

Sounds cool then. Just note, that if you do plan to invest on dual wielding feats, you'd need to raise your base DEX to 15.

Yearghalbargle, I forgot about that haha!

Yeah I'm gonna likely forget dualed as it will probably handicap things too much, what with the varied class styles and all. So I think Weap Finesse it is, then, for lvl 18 feat, and then Toughness and some other three haha.

Another question in regard to epic levels:
How does picking epic level feats work if you are not epic in that class? As in, the NWN wiki states that Rogues ar Epic Level get certain feats to pick from. I will get to pick from those when I level up beyond character level 20 as a Rogue, right? I'm assuming so

hendrack wrote:

25 ranger and 3 AA. You dont get nottin from those 2 aa levels except prestige and +1. But 25 ranger gives you a better pet, and +1 to your stuff vs favoured enemies.

You can skip the AA part, make it 25 ranger 4 fighter 1 rogue and give it Zen archery + WIS base. You spot everything and hit everything on the server with throwing axes. Epic weapon spec saves the damage output.

So what kind of timeline do I look at taking what classes? Also how does this kind of build look with starting stats?

12 STR
12 INT
18 WIS
else 10, unless you like min-maxing

or 14 STR 18 WIS else 10 if you don't want to bump more stuff with your rogue level, 10 INT is enough on a human to bump spot, tumble, UMD and discipline.

WF:ThrowingAxe
Zen Archery
PointBlankShot in the first 3 levels

then straight 20 ranger (or 19 ranger 1 fighter pre-epic)

blind fight, extend spell, imp. crit. throwing axe, called shot, skill focus spot

epic weapon focus, epic prowess, WS and epic weapon spec. with your epic fighter levels, greater wis I at 27 and bane of enemies

with 30 you take your rogue level and ESF:spot

You get +5 spot, dmg and AB vs favoured enemies +2d6 from BoE, which you get 6 of them. I recommend human, elves, outsiders, undead, giant and one for flavour.

Thats how I'd make it. The STR-dualhandaxe melee version has more dmg, but this isn't bad me thinks. Maximise your spot, your WIS and get the alertness ring, you see everything on the server.

So here's the question. Bard 6/RDD 14/BG 10 would have how much maximum ab and how much maximum AC? I'm losing myself cuz I'm not quite sure about Amian RDD/BG bonuses and penalties. I'd aim for 20 base CHA and divine shield.

And at what hend is saying.... If you want to drop wis and buff dex. You get the same ab, and way more ac. At cost of losing spot only.

Yarp, alas, that's the smart way. Pigeon is correct.

Dead: Roughly around 65 AC fully self-buffed and AB 50.

Bah, and losing all the uniqueness! Spot is sexy and with a shield, full armor and UMD there is enough AC!

Of course Im right. But how much spot would it get? 33+10(epic skill)+19+(Elf bonus 2)+(Spot bonus from ranger favored enemies = 6?).... 70 Base? 120 with gear... Is this accurate? Could maybe take blooded and skill focus: spot to stack it like a nutjob.

Human.

33
+10 ESF:Spot
+3 SF:SPot
+2 alertness ring
+14 WIS mod
+5 vs favored enemies

= 67 + 50 items = 117 +2 (elf)

You fail! Blooded for free on Tuigans...

Alas, still find it a waste because of the silly awesomeness of having super high dex and thus being able to dual wield and what not. Can still use throwing axes sometimes if you really wanted to.

But cant melee if going wisdom route.

He wanted a ranged char which is "essentially a tracker". Else I'd suggested my stock STR handaxe dual wielder. When I go ranged I always nab spot.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Yarp, alas, that's the smart way. Pigeon is correct.

Dead: Roughly around 65 AC fully self-buffed and AB 50.

+10 on imp.expertise. bullseye! thanks. :mrgreen:

Yeah just to clarify a few details I've been mulling over... He's going to be a human, and I would prefer to use bows.. although not sure which type of bow is better... and being able to duel wield would be a nice addition. I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of spot if I can achieve those things.

And so If I wanted to go the dex route, would my stats look like this perhaps?

+12Str
+18Dex
+10Con
+12Wis
+12Int
+8Cha

?

WIS 14 if you want all those sexy spells.

A bard dex-build for the fey subrace. If I'm not mistaken, I'm looking at an effective 73 ac with a +5 bard song. What are the main disadvantages to dex-based bards - and will my damage be so piddly it won't be viable? I'm thinking of using a handaxe or a kukri to help with damage.

General advice appreciated.

*stares at you*

Swallow the Stars wrote:

A bard dex-build for the fey subrace. If I'm not mistaken, I'm looking at an effective 73 ac with a +5 bard song. What are the main disadvantages to dex-based bards - and will my damage be so piddly it won't be viable? I'm thinking of using a handaxe or a kukri to help with damage.

General advice appreciated.

Go look at the older threads. Someone posted a version of this - the AC is ridikkulus, but IIRC like you fear, the damage isn't worth it.

I'd do Bard20/Shadowdancer10 with Lasting Inspiration and Epic Dodge. Yeah, piddly damage, but pretty damn near indestructable in melee.

Hi!
This was an idea I have had for quite some time now. A Orog Barbarian/BG using a great sword.

Plan was 18Barb/10BG whit 16 cha and divine might/shild...

Any ideas or tips on this???

Make it 16 babarian/2 rogue/10 BG.
This way you get UMD and tumble dump, dont loose skill points for the cross class hide and get 1d6 more sneak damage.
Make shure to pick one Babarian level at lvl 27 for intimidate dump and picking terryfying rage.
Aside of that you cannot do much wrong with the build. You got awesome Saving throws, okay AC for a two hander and nice damage output.

Barb17 voids the -2AC from Rage, and with the nice fat saves you'll want to keep Rogue2 for Evasion, so the only fat to be trimmed is Blackguard; Barb17/BG9/Rogue2. If you've got 16CHA then you'll max out at a +9 modifier anyway. You lose 1d6 Sneak from BG10, alas.

Unless some love for twohander weapons is implemented*, I simply wouldn't go greatsword, but I assume that you don't mind that and want you fella to look awesomesauce, which he will. He will be viable even in mediocre parties, though.

*There's a thread( from earlier in the month I think) where this was discussed.

I love seeing people suggest Rogue for not reason other than as a skill dump.
At least have some RP reasoning for classes, sheesh.

Like I have a Fighter/Rogue/SD. RP-wise he broke from fighter to rogue because he wanted to focus on moving stealthily and striking from the shadows. I wanted him to go SD, but I couldn't figure out how to make it IC work without seeming cheesy. But, then, I luckily stumbled on a portal to Shadowscape City and found the SD academy there.

Some people could say I took Rogue and SD to be cheesy, but there is a reason and method to my character.

Naivatkal wrote:

At least have some RP reasoning for classes, sheesh.

Get out of this thread, you filthy RPer.

No, you! >8U

There are different kinds of cheese. Rogue cheese has nice flavour and can be served with cookies and wine. Monk/druid cheese gives off a stronger odour and need to be treated with thought before served. RDD and Sorc/Pally cheese smells like rotten eggs and need to be squashed and sent to deep and dark places where it canot escape.

Rogue cheese is no different to any other cheese save the fact that its become "socially accepted". The problem is skill dumping of course but that isnt going anywhere so hey ho.

Naivatkal wrote:

I love seeing people suggest Rogue for not reason other than as a skill dump.
At least have some RP reasoning for classes, sheesh.

When a Rogue uses Evasion to dodge all the damage of a trap or spell, and doubles/triples/quadruples his or her DPS because of Sneak Attack, are those IC events?

If you agree it is, then a character without them has to be suicidally stupid not to want them. Well, mages won't care about the DPS, but everyone loves taking zero damage. There's your RP reason right there.

If you argue that it's not then I'm impressed by your cognitive dissonance.

Balckdragon: If I understand it right, skill dumping is a dubious one because in PnP, once you take a class, all its skills stay as class skills regardless of what level you're currently taking. That means if you're a purist you can take a level of class A early on and happily bank points for that skill until NWN lets you dump them at 30. I am muck, so I just bank and dump anyway, safe in the knowledge that I'm far too egotistical to find my RP anything other than hilarious.

Quote:

Balckdragon: If I understand it right, skill dumping is a dubious one because in PnP, once you take a class, all its skills stay as class skills regardless of what level you're currently taking.

Yup. This rule effectively destroys the need for skill dumps ever so.

Uberuce wrote:

*There's a thread( from earlier in the month I think) where this was discussed.

Were can I find this thread??? I have bin looking but can't find it

Uberuce wrote:

Barb17 voids the -2AC from Rage, and with the nice fat saves you'll want to keep Rogue2 for Evasion, so the only fat to be trimmed is Blackguard; Barb17/BG9/Rogue2. If you've got 16CHA then you'll max out at a +9 modifier anyway. You lose 1d6 Sneak from BG10, alas.

Unless some love for twohander weapons is implemented*, I simply wouldn't go greatsword, but I assume that you don't mind that and want you fella to look awesomesauce, which he will. He will be viable even in mediocre parties, though.

Whats wrong whit Great sword? From what I have read Orogs favor Greate swords...

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Balckdragon: If I understand it right, skill dumping is a dubious one because in PnP, once you take a class, all its skills stay as class skills regardless of what level you're currently taking.

Yup. This rule effectively destroys the need for skill dumps ever so.

So no one should ever feel guilty for being a dirty rotten powerbuilding skill-dumper? >.>

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=50104

That's the thread discussing twohandering.

Was curious about the pros and cons of a 20 bard/10 monk on amia. Anyone willing to aid in making a list?

Uberuce wrote:

When a Rogue uses Evasion to dodge all the damage of a trap or spell, and doubles/triples/quadruples his or her DPS because of Sneak Attack, are those IC events?

If you agree it is, then a character without them has to be suicidally stupid not to want them. Well, mages won't care about the DPS, but everyone loves taking zero damage. There's your RP reason right there.

If you argue that it's not then I'm impressed by your cognitive dissonance.

Sure, one can argue that all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's taking advantage of game mechanics. If you say 'Oh, it's just learning a new skill/feat/etc' then there may as well not be any classes, right? And, pray tell, how is someone stupid for not learning a trait which their class type (for lack of a better way to put it) doesn't normally learn? It's called lack of a frame of reference, that is all.

Uberuce wrote:

Balckdragon: If I understand it right, skill dumping is a dubious one because in PnP, once you take a class, all its skills stay as class skills regardless of what level you're currently taking. That means if you're a purist you can take a level of class A early on and happily bank points for that skill until NWN lets you dump them at 30. I am muck, so I just bank and dump anyway, safe in the knowledge that I'm far too egotistical to find my RP anything other than hilarious.

Wait, are you saying that's how it works in PnP? Forgive the confusion, I've just never heard of that lol

Naivatkal wrote:

Sure, one can argue that all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's taking advantage of game mechanics. If you say 'Oh, it's just learning a new skill/feat/etc' then there may as well not be any classes, right? And, pray tell, how is someone stupid for not learning a trait which their class type (for lack of a better way to put it) doesn't normally learn? It's called lack of a frame of reference, that is all.

In PnP you are unlimited in the number of classes you can take. You are also allowed to continue to take ranks in skills from previous classes, even when your alignment or actions no longer permit you to use their abilities. Thus, in PnP a Bard/Paladin could theoretically exist. In Amia (thank god) they cannot. Dungeons and Dragons - and, in a similar extent, Amia - promotes characters to roleplay. Learning from a different discipline than your main (See: Modern liberal arts universities - they make you do it) allow you to broaden your perspectives and understanding of the world around you as well as develop skills that benefit you. Some of these are required because, without them, you are much less effective as an educated member of society (In America, it's typically English Language, Computer Technology, a foreign language, History, and Economics). I see it as no different in America when a character learns disciplines from a separate walk of life to strengthen their own effectiveness in their world. It is not only realistic, but has clear parallels in real life.

Oh, no, I get that about the diversity. I like that myself. The issue I was pointing to was not taking classes for diversity, it was taking classes to just 'fluff' your character.

Also, WTH WotC. WTH.
I'm glad I've always played PnP where class skills stay with that class ><

DustSpray101 wrote:

Was curious about the pros and cons of a 20 bard/10 monk on amia. Anyone willing to aid in making a list?

Con: You'd need an alignment change.

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