There's no need for lore to explain, it because this is How It Is. There's no change, this is standard. One doesn't explain why a lightfoot halfling gets +2 dexterity, or why a Gold Dwarf gets -2 Dexterity instead of -2 charisma.
My reasoning for the question was if this was amia only or outside of amia. Okay that made no sense, if I would make a human from so and so and he saw a strongheart hafling should I assume he is in fact amia version not forgotten realms version? Because this large has brought up issues with me in the past rp, if a strong heart hafling from amia has effectively +4str than so and so place that is a huge diffrence in every day life and would largely effect how I would think of haflngs.
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this just goes into the haste debate again, [pike] monks, give the move increase to the dex stat. or like I said mod the epic rouge feat to do a similar thing.
failing this spam haste as much as possible, and don't forget halfers do have shorter legs even if they can run faster.
I really do hate the fact that -only- monks and more so pure monks, get the best only natural move increases. and spell resistance, and immunitys, and etc...I should unarchive tao and kick some ass =O
There's no need for lore to explain, it because this is How It Is. There's no change, this is standard. One doesn't explain why a lightfoot halfling gets +2 dexterity, or why a Gold Dwarf gets -2 Dexterity instead of -2 charisma.
My reasoning for the question was if this was amia only or outside of amia. Okay that made no sense, if I would make a human from so and so and he saw a strongheart hafling should I assume he is in fact amia version not forgotten realms version? Because this large has brought up issues with me in the past rp, if a strong heart hafling from amia has effectively +4str than so and so place that is a huge diffrence in every day life and would largely effect how I would think of haflngs.
This is how every Storngheart in Faerun on Amia is. That was plainly obvious. That is How They Are, Everywhere.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
When I have time, there's a bunch of issues from "The Big Book of Small Folk" that will be contradicted that I'd like to put to you, Tormak, as DM to decide on some lore for us, if that's possible.
Of course, only if you're willing.
"The Big Book of Small Folk" is basically a pooled lore wiki entry on the Amia Wiki gathered and compiled from lots of 3.0 FR sources.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
I think I can sum everything said in this thread into this one small post. Let's see:
Do Strong Heart Halflings get wonky bonuses that do not make any sense? -> Yep. Do the Dungeon Masters acknowledge this? -> Yep. Will it be changed? -> Noep. Should this topic be locked because it doesn't really serve a purpose anymore? -> Yep.
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
I think what Tormak is saying is that there's no need to explain in lore why things are different on Amia, because things aren't different on Amia in our campaign. This is the standard Strongheart halfling in this campaign, and it's the standard in our Faerun. One of those house rules that just are, because it's how Ao set it in the beginning. Nobody on Amia or anywhere in Faerun has ever heard of different stronghearts, in our campaign. There are no different stronghearts.
Just like in a by-the-book FR campaign, you don't explain why elves get that +2 DEX and orcs get -2 CHA. They just get it, and nobody ever heard of an orc or elf that was different.
And just like in a by-the-book FR campaign, stronghearts don't get those bonuses and there's no need to explain why they don't get them.
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From FR lore: Strongheart, Lightfoot and Ghostwise are all biologically the same/ There's absolutely no way that this can be true considering the physiological difference of a strongheart in the Amia setting unless there was a cultural reason behind it, which, if we're dsaying it's the same lore as FR, there isn't a cultural reason behind why they have +4 strength to other hin, and a grant of +2 AC!
And that's just for starters...
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
It is What it is. It is not the same as the book, but that is okay. Its okay to be different.
Its not scary!
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
maybe its a cultural thing, I spent like a day reading about ghostwise. stronghearts on amia are blatently geared toward melee builds, but IDK what you mean by wonky stats, +2 ecl makes up for the odd strength and bonuses. imho.
maybe its a cultural thing, I spent like a day reading about ghostwise. stronghearts on amia are blatently geared toward melee builds, but IDK what you mean by wonky stats, +2 ecl makes up for the odd strength and bonuses. imho.
By wonky stats I obviously meant them being as strong as an average half-orc, and stronger than an average human. Say what you will, but it just doesn't make sense, at least not in my opinion.
Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
Nekhy wrote:
Well, a wolf, a Danish hound and a Chihuahua are all biologically the same Canis lupus, but you couldn't tell that just by looking at them...
The child of a ghostwise and a strongheart halfling will be a halfling as the others in a biological sense. What would make their subrace one or the other is by how they're brought up.
The dog analogy falls apart there. Though if that's what you're deciding on as lore, I'd accept that, but please answer me this: What's a crossbreed of a lightfoot and a strongheart on Amia?
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
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AlphaWaves wrote:
Nekhy wrote:
Well, a wolf, a Danish hound and a Chihuahua are all biologically the same Canis lupus, but you couldn't tell that just by looking at them...
The child of a ghostwise and a strongheart halfling will be a halfling as the others in a biological sense. What would make their subrace one or the other is by how they're brought up.
The dog analogy falls apart there. Though if that's what you're deciding on as lore, I'd accept that, but please answer me this: What's a crossbreed of a lightfoot and a strongheart on Amia?
Obviously, if we want to go the biology way, the crossbreed is a crossbreed and not either/or. Just like a mutt puppy isn't either/or.
Anyway, the doggy point was to demonstrate that within the biologically same species (or race, if you prefer for FR) there can be variation, while you seemed to be of the opinion that such doesn't fly. This could be because of separation, for example lightfoots come from a family/village that intermarried for generations and stronghearts come from a family/village that intermarried for generations. Rinse and repeat and you'll eventually have two differing halfling populations. Both halfling, with slightly differing traits. Just because Amia is relatively modern that anything that moves interbreeds with anything else that moves, doesn't mean that things have always been like that. I guess it's a safe bet to say there's been some cultural evolution in FR, and previously people have been sticking to their own village instead of going out and breeding with devils.
That's, of course, if we want to apply real-world biology to halflings. I'm just picking up where you left the argument with an "it's not possible" and proving it is indeed possible.
On Amia, the crossbreed is either/or, for mechanical reasons if nothing else.
_________________ Current plots: DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
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Nekhy wrote:
I'm just picking up where you left the argument with an "it's not possible" and proving it is indeed possible.
I wasn't saying that it's not possible. I was trying to get people to think about reasons how it can work which is precisely what you're doing. And I'm happy you are. See previous posts where I'm encouraging DMs to make stuff up if necessary. I was never saying that it's impossible!
My asking questions id also necessary so that things become clearer and to pick out holes. Consider it constructive criticism? I think the way I'm being read is not how I'm trying to come across, but of course, my writing isn't exactly brilliant, I know.
The matter of it being a mongrel will ultimately lead to confusion fro me. It's neither strongheart or lightfoot in the given example. Like a Labrador mixed with a German Shepherd it isn't just one or the other in looks or behaviour.
In other words, would a child of the pair get +2 AC? What caused this +2 AC. Is it really biological like you're suggesting? Or is it from somewhere else? Divine? Culture? What is it representing?
Remember I'm not being rhetorical to poke fun of it or use it as a reason to scrap the subrace. We've already established that change is never going to happen. But the questions should be asked. It's all part of world building. Like magic. It can be 'explained' when someone has a question. Even though that explanation is made up by all those involved in the world building. Greenwood et.al.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
Treat stronghearts like you'd treat an albino. They're genetic freaks who drew the short straw and because of it have massive hormonal imbalances fueling their mutant muscle mass. They're two-tusked narwhals, double-headed snakes, six-fingered princes, and Siamese children. Do the right thing.
I'm just picking up where you left the argument with an "it's not possible" and proving it is indeed possible.
I wasn't saying that it's not possible. I was trying to get people to think about reasons how it can work which is precisely what you're doing. And I'm happy you are. See previous posts where I'm encouraging DMs to make stuff up if necessary. I was never saying that it's impossible!
My asking questions id also necessary so that things become clearer and to pick out holes. Consider it constructive criticism? I think the way I'm being read is not how I'm trying to come across, but of course, my writing isn't exactly brilliant, I know.
The matter of it being a mongrel will ultimately lead to confusion fro me. It's neither strongheart or lightfoot in the given example. Like a Labrador mixed with a German Shepherd it isn't just one or the other in looks or behaviour.
In other words, would a child of the pair get +2 AC? What caused this +2 AC. Is it really biological like you're suggesting? Or is it from somewhere else? Divine? Culture? What is it representing?
Remember I'm not being rhetorical to poke fun of it or use it as a reason to scrap the subrace. We've already established that change is never going to happen. But the questions should be asked. It's all part of world building. Like magic. It can be 'explained' when someone has a question. Even though that explanation is made up by all those involved in the world building. Greenwood et.al.
The entire post is pointless. I've already pointed out that they mix like selves, as in, not at all.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
Quote:
The entire post is pointless. I've already pointed out that they mix like selves, as in, not at all.
You didn't say that specifically. Though looking back it looks like that's what you were getting at. At the time however... It looked like you were saying something quite different.
But saying my entire post is pointless? Perhaps you can actually read it and see the point. It's not one simple question. Though it is repeating myself. And it was a defence against Nekhy's jab.
So yea. You can be like that... But boy does it make me seethe.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
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AlphaWaves wrote:
From FR lore: Strongheart, Lightfoot and Ghostwise are all biologically the same/ There's absolutely no way that this can be true considering the physiological difference of a strongheart in the Amia setting unless there was a cultural reason behind it [...]
This is what I was referring to with the "it's impossible" argument. It surely reads to me that you're saying it's not possible to have three physically different variants of halflings that are biologically the same race/species. It's simply a flawed argument, because it's untrue. It's also not a jab, just pointing out that your physiology argument was flawed, and why it was flawed.
Not that it's awfully productive to base any FR arguments on real-world science, anyway, since FR laws of nature (not to mention NWN's mechanical restrictions) tend to overrule real world rules. But if we wanna discuss FR on biology terms, I don't mind, personally. It's a fun way to waste time and it's safe to assume those rules apply to a certain degree.
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I think Andy is asking good questions, personally.
How are Stronghearts different in looks, if at all, from other Halflings? If Stronghearts mate with one of the other two subraces, is it like Elves, where one subrace totally overtakes the other and they're either or, or do they become some sort of hybrid Halfling? If they become a hybrid Halfling, why would they not get strength bonuses too? Sure, it probably wouldn't be +4 like Stronghearts, but perhaps a +1 or +2 or +3?
These types of questions are important when you play a half Lightfoot, half Strongheart like I do or to those who might play half Ghostwise, half Strongheart. Hell, even those who might play a PC who has ancestry in all three subraces.
This is why my explanation is the best. If it's purely genetic--a random, freakish hormonal surge triggered by puberty or something--then it can be hereditary. It can be dominant or recessive, it can skip generations. It is down to Mendel, to which ~magic~ or ~divine intervention~ can also be applied.
It also removes the need to classify "crossbreeds" as a hybrid because they are not hybrids--they're just mutations. Stronghearts and ghostwise are just genetic weirdos. Lightfoot halflings are the base. Two ghostwise, or two strongheart halflings are more likely to pass the ghostwise/strongheart mutations to their offspring than a "crossbreed" would be, but being a so-called crossbreed with a dominant MUSCLEFUCK allele would not make you some freaky +3 relative strength "hybrid." You'd just be strongheart.
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
There's really nothing freaky about Ghostwise stats though. They have +2 to Dex because of their way of life. It's nothing major really. Stronghearts are the only Halfling freaks, and only on Amia with their +4 Str, making them stronger than Humans by default.
Topics are locked because they're break the forum rules, and even then it's better to ban/remove individual posters/posts. They might also be locked if they're dealt with or disruptive to practice, especially in the Improving forum. Anything else is abuse of the lock, so let's not call for that.
AlphaWaves's questions are relevant and anything but pointless. The best way to go about it would be to develop your own explanation and offer it to the DMs for approval, though. That way you can be sure the outcome is as good as possible, and someone who cares about the relevance of the issue is the one to look into it; individual DMs aren't and can't be interested in every aspect and detail of the world.
My contribution is this: you shouldn't make too much of +4 Strength, because Amia's level range and magic level make stats unbelievable and disproportionate in any case. You can chalk some of it up to supernatural effect, but I suppose you could also interpret it so that Stronghearts are better trained in combat with heavy arms and thus swing a sword harder. Moreover, their organized lifestyle may have made them more resilient workers. I'd read it simply as "They're often stockier and stronger both due to genetics and lifestyle" and not make too much of whether it's +1 Str or +4 Str. The difference between the two is just one Nasher's Ring away on Amia, anyway.
Re:Crossbreeding. It's not the intention of the information we're given on elven or other demihuman crossbreeding to suggest that one subrace completely takes over the other. Both NPC examples in literature and common sense says that the child will carry traits of both parents. It is first and foremost a game-mechanical solution to force the player pick one subrace or the other so as not to stack both of their stats. Sure, it may also apply IC so that one subrace is clearly dominant, but it's exaggeration to suppose the result is "pure".
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Use the typical Roleplayer response to these questions.
Player: Why is the halfling able to lift my half-orc over his head? DM: Its magic. Player: Explain? DM: I did, it's magic, and most aspects of magic aren't possible to explain.
_________________ I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
so this comes under the 'a wizard did it' category xD
but srsly I guess yea it has been answered, but the why and the lore is confusing people, its only fair we give a straight answer, imho. as far as the why, that one part of lotr...where they are like "4 sparta!" pretty much says it all, hin are tough as heck if they want to be, and stronghearts are the amia equivilent of that.
I didn't want to referance lotr's but it says it all. as for why can they lift orcs, can they? Ogrillion and Orog's both get +2 strength aswell, and they also have level adjustments, but without giving build advice for the sake of subraces, one of those could in theory out strength any strongheart (before item buffs) with epic strengths. thus the orc is stronger. as are dwarves who take a melee route, don't forget some pnp style rolls are (should) against AC not a counter str roll.
and the how, I guess the same as anything else, if I hin lifts rocks for a living they are just as strong as a human that lifts rocks for a living, compared to a spellcaster or stealth type build. I don't want to have to trawl the net for that kid who lifted a truck to save his dad IRL with his bare hands but big things come in small packages is my honest answer to these questions.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
It's Penalty's vs Positives I believe, thats how most of the racial stats go when deciding level adjustments. That and popularity.
For example, Duergar gets more benefits then Dwarf (barely), but because of the restrictions and strict culture requirements of playing them, they aren't to popular. That and the idea that they are just grey underdark dwarfs (so not true). This makes them very unpopular as a race, and a year ago it was decided to remove the level adjustment in an attempt to make them more popular.
But in most cases you get fair and balanced adjustments. Ogrillions get some awesome bonuses, with little penalities, thus a +1 Adjustment. Drow gets some pretty high bonuses to, on top of normal racial bonuses, thus +2 adjustments.
_________________ I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
A Lightfoot who invests in balanced melee abilities might start with 14 Strength. This is not particularly freakish among the adventuring population. And then, a Strongheart who doesn't invest in Strength at all will have 10. This is slightly above-average for a Lightfoot, and it doesn't make you a ball of muscle.
By level twelve, which is not unusual in Amia's scale of power (even among NPCs), the aforementioned Lightfoot will have 17 Strength. Now, this is almost as strong as a human can ever get naturally, without adventure. So it's pretty freakish already. But meanwhile the average civilian Strongheart will have 10-14 Strength. So considering a high-level Lightfoot who has invested in Strength isn't considered a freakish ball of muscle, I don't see why the average Strongheart must be, either.
Within Amia's scale of power and the wide spectrum of ability distribution you see, it's not necessary to see Stronghearts as unnaturally burly powerhouses. This is only if you read abilities loosely and account a part of them to specialization of skills and supernatural effect, which is the only way I find it sensible to interpret them.
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