What do you think in regards to using Mind Fog with the charming spell barrage? rather then cloud kill?

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"Imagination is more important then Knowledge." - Albert Einstein

Mind fog is a fun spell.

It takes a will save to get Reduced will save.
Basically.
Will Save Vs Reduced Will save. It's kinda redundant.

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Also - A 29 Sorcerer does NOT need any spell penetration feats.

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Mmm.. sorcerers are tricky, since you have to be very careful when picking spells. A sorcerer level at 29 (ecl30) is recommended, since you can delevel and repick spells easily.

I would suggest 26 sorcerer, 2 rogue, 1 ranger personally.

You get two epic sorcerer feats, evasion (which is handy against all reflex based spells) and a ranger bonus feat for epic spell focus, not to mention tumble, disc, etc.
Taking 1 level of barbarian also has its merrits. Taunt should be fun to play with, since you have a high charisma score. Loweing the AC of opponents will be appreciated by your teammates, as well as the 30% spell failure against casters.. not to forget the 10% movement speed increase.

I would suggest these spells if you like conjuration, enchantment & evocation.

Spells:
1 : Grease, Ironguts, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Color Spray
2 : Bull's Strength, Endurance, Cloud of B., See Invisibility, B. Iron Horn
3 : Negative Energy Burst (or Invisibility Sphere/Mestil's Acid Breath, if you dislike grey necromancy), Hold Person, Haste, Flame Arrow
4 : Confusion, Improved Invisibility, Ice Storm, Evard's Black Kittens of Doom
5 : Cone of Cold, Lesser Mind Blank, Energy Buffer, Mestil's Acid Sheath
6 : Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, Mass Haste, Bigby's Forceful Hand
7 : Spell Mantle, Shadow Shield, Great Thunderclap
8 : Sunburst, Premonition, Greater Sanctuary
9 : Time Stop, Dominate Monster, Mordenkainen's Disjunction
10 : Epic Mage Armor, Mummy Dust: ?, Greater Ruin/Hellball

Feats 8 pre-epic:
Extend Spell or Silent Spell (Silent spell is not really needed with that many offensive spells)
Empower Spell
Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment

Feats 6 epic (21, 24, 27 - Sorcerer 2 - Ranger 1):
Greater Ruin
Epic Mage Armor
Mummy Dust
Epic Fortitude
Epic Spell Focus: Evocation
Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment

Its slightly difficult to select features without knowing much about your intended build, but I hope it helps a tad.

Long live sorcerers!

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Thank you very much, this has helped many of my questions, I'm going to adjust only slightly some of those spells but I wanted to ask you in the Epic spell focuses. If I'm going to be using Mummy dust, why wouldn't I want to pick one of those as Epic spell focuses as conjuration because rather then 1 turn / CL it increases to 1 hour / CL? ( According to the summons section in the Amia sidebar) Would that be because that I need higher DC on the others for them to beat saves?

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"Imagination is more important then Knowledge." - Albert Einstein

*salutes* =P

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"Imagination is more important then Knowledge." - Albert Einstein

Spell Focus Enchantment: The spells it boosts are useful in low-level PvM; lvl 25+ mobs have some crazy saves. They will be useful in PvP if you catch somene without mindblank or spend half a round mording.

Spell Focus Conjuration: Benefitted spells are all 4th level or lower, meaning a low save to begin with. Those spells' saves are not even against the effects that make them useful. Basically, a focus in this school is mainly for an extended mummy.

Spell Focus Evocation: Can disable and damage all the way to lvl 9. And maybe something to do with extending one of the mummy summons or EDK, not sure.

In my opinion: save the feats that would go to a third or even second focus and use it for greater spell penetration; then the 3 monk levels don't hinder you as much for spellcasting and grant you some nice stuff, if you haven't barred out that class combo.

I really like this sorceror build too, however the mummy dust summon is actually prolonged by epic focus in necromancy, not conjuration. Just take Epic Dragon Knight instead of Mummy Dust and Epic Focus Conjuration instead of Epic Fortitude and you'll get that extended epic companion you always wanted. Just try to keep him out of forests and narrow hallways.

Sorry Jaex. Read up on the update.

Mummy Dust [Duration: 1 Turn / Caster Level]
Upon taking the feat Epic Mummy Dust the player has the option of changing the type of summon that is called. This may be done once per character unless a request is made to the DM team through the correct channel. It is advisable for the purposes of reskinning to choose the summon that best fits the type of creature you wish to reskin to.
• Outsider [Alignment Based] - Extended by Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration
• Magical Beast - Extended by Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration
• Elemental - Extended by Epic Spell Focus: Evocation
• Construct - Extended by Epic Spell Focus: Transmutation
• Undead [Default] - Extended by Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy

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....^^ That's the build my sorcerer has, works a treat. Except I'm a dirty necromancer/enchanter.

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I use the 1 turn/level variant of summoning, since it lasts long enough. Once your turn/level buffs fade, you want to rest anyways since they include shadow shield, lesser mind blank etc. 26 turns is quite a long time.

The suggestion of greater spell focus: conjuration was to increase the DC of some of the spells. Grease works great for a level 1 spell (especially if you spam it), so does Flame Arrow (empowered especially - 36d6 fire damage with DC of 31 ref. save with 14 cha mod.). +4 DC would be worth it I think, but only if you want a wide variety of spells from different schools.

Normally focusing on one or two schools are better, since you get a few extra feats to boost your character. Sadly the only school to benefit from sweet spells up through most of the spell tiers is necromancy. (except at level 5). Since necromancy doesn't work for your character, you could go for evocation and.. *ponders* illusion or something like that. Illusion with its lovely Mass Blindness/Deafness at level 8 and Weird at level 9 (its great fun with the BOT page. 20d8 negative damage, fort negates, and will save vs. fear), plus your Color Spray works better (and Phantasmal Killer if you like that flying ghost). *drools*
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Illusion

Then there is enchantment, which alone for the Dominate Monster at level 9 is worth it. Surely there are other fun spells as well. See below.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Enchantment

Epic spell focus: conjuration is only really worth it if you want to summon a dragon which doesn't just land, leaving a turd on your shoes and vanishing after a few seconds. Like a few others said. Conjuration is really more a druid thing.

If I didn't answer your question one way or the other, then I am truly a douche

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Is it possible to make a Green Dragon Disciple (Ranger/Bard/RDD) that is not cheesy and does not fail in everything? Such as taking more than 10 RDD levels?

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

Taking over 10 RDD levels is pure fail, alas. The sensible build is Ranger23/RDD5/Bard2 or Ranger25/RDD4/Bard1.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Piss off, Opustus!

Anyone who takes more than 4 RDD levels and acrually RPs them is automatically the best kind of RDD because you've proven that you're not doing it to be a topheavy class abusing twuntball.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

My new favorite word.

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Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

They're both wrong. Taking over 0 levels makes you an arsebucket.

But word abusing reminds me so lively of my childhood. The bastards above are right, of course. Just trying to get you the ultimate pleasure playing a Ranger brings!

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

what do you mean combust doesn't stack? it sets them on fire until they roll a reflex save, whats to stack?? you mean cast multiple times?

no comment on the bard/rdd combo...just no...

I say delayed fireball because it is one of those under estimated ones that can utterly dispose of people, also I keep forgetting your going sorcorer -_- I am a wizard guy myself I prefer the variation. so you gotta be picky with spells...

Great thunderclap can be a disabler AND damage source. Good to have those bot pages. Delayed Blast Fireball is pretty neat, I have to give you that.


Regarding the RDD thing. I eat a lot of cheese, perhaps thats why I made a silver dragon desciple back in the day (obviously not -that- long ago).
18 RDD/2 Bard/10 Fighter. It works quite well. A beefy bubba with ok AB. I made it mainly because of the silver dragon aspect. That he has 18d10 cold breath is just a funny addition.

I say go for it. Melted cheese, mmmm..

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7 feats. Shifter

1 Alertness
#2 Extend
#3 Empower
#4 spell Focus evocation
#5 greater spell focus evocation
#6 Spell penetration
#7 greater spell penetration


Would this sorry shifter be able to actually, "Actually" Do some damage with his spells on higher levels?

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Well you'll be going 13 druid/17 shifter and netting outsider shape I presume? Well, you'll be able to empower flame strike and ice storm, but empowering firestorm, which is your best bet for decent damage is an impossibility, given you'd need level 9 spell slots and 17 levels of shifter.

So, your best option might be to actually take spell focus conjuration instead of evo, because your rak will be most viable and spam higher DC SoV followed with icestorms, which don't have a saving throw.

Still your damage output from spells is never going to be that great since there's no way to haste yourself for long. The good shifter aoe abilities are those that disable spawns, but you'd be relying on your party to actually do the damage. Actually, there's no shifter at all that can really be said to do good damage, dragonshape being the possible exception, but you don't even need shifter levels for that.

I dont really understand that part.
And isn't 11Druid/19Shifter better, to get the most improved feats and an extra Epic feat?

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If you can still hit with expertice on, the extra AC is nice.
What build is this btw?
I was thinking of rejoining Amia after a 2-3 years break, but I dont know anything about what new feats/spells/items the world got since I last played here, so I am thinking of playing a full BAB'ed saving through focused fighter/CoT/tumbler. Can anyone maybe show me one, primarry for PvM, I dont care much about PvP..

I am going for Druid8/Shifter10/Bard2 into Druid8/Bard3/Shifter19 because I'm not too fussed about the 5th and 6th level Druid spells but really don't want to go without UMD and Tumble. The need* to have 11CHA is a good thing overall; it's a zillion times easier to RP the 10+ CHA crowd and you have a lot of wiggle room on stats with Shifters anyway.


*not mechanical, I know, but: ewwwwww.
If you don't care about the PvP side, I'd not bother going for a savestank. You can outright immunise yourself to just about everything the module will throw at you if you have enough time to drink/cast/equip the right stuff.

For what it's worth, mine is a human(Tuigan) Ftr18/CoT10/Rogue2 dualwielding Devcritter, which pretty much writes itself. At the minute (level 10)he's a vicious wee lad since he's got twice the number of attacks most folk do. If I wanted a more PvM focus, I'd be hard pressed to argue with Ftr22/WM7/Rogue1 dualwielder, but if you really want to stick with Ftr/CoT then I'd trade out Ftr for Rogue. Ftr14/CoT10/Rogue6 loses you Epic [saves] and Epic Prowess but bags you 2d6 more Sneak.

This makes me wonder now:

- What spells does rakshasa come with?
- What feats does it come with?
- Do Shifter levels and Druid levels both add up for Caster level on the spells when shifted?
- Do Shifter levels and Druid levels both add up for Spell Penetration level on the spells when shifted?

There was a spreadsheet posted in the Shifter topic that answers all the questions.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Thx Ruce.
I actually think I once had a fig/wm/Rog devcritter here on Amia, I wonder if theres still some woman in the starting zone I can ask to dig up old characters?

btw: Why not going 14cot/14Fighter/2rg instead? I'm somewhat rusty at builds but dont the +4 savings (or is it only +2) make up for the loss of 1 feat?
I do remember that CoT for some very ood reason also can take epic weap.spec, a feat not even the wm got...

Sorry if I'm just stupid and missed it (I'm pretty drained right now and waiting to have a chance to go eat) but I see nothing on that in the sidebar. The wiki lists the spells, which is great - but it's less than exhaustive. I found the "Shifter is Nevr Late" thread which answered the spell selection, but I'm still wondering:

- "Spell Foci" in what schools?
- Does Druid and Shifter stack for either Caster Level and/or Spell Penetration?

What got me wondering about the spell selection was:



I suppose that's just a typo? I was all excited thinking rakshasas could cast it.

Raksha's cant cast that, but ... Epic Lizard can!

Question remains, Is Firestorm a level 7 Spell or a level 8 spell, as shifters use it..

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Whatever it is for a Druid. This should be obvious.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Could depend. Nothing is obvious.


clerics have it at level7, druids 8.
But shifters sort of have it as an Innate ability.
Hell, Since they have it as an 'innate' ability, It could be level 1?

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Oh, it's much fancier now. Type "/s f_file show archive" anywhere in-game and you'll get an explanation of the new way Disco/Terra made for doing it, as well as the contenrs of your archive.

It'd be +2 saves, but the kicker is that the CoT bonus counts towards the +20 saves cap, so it's better to have the epic feat.

No, Svensk. No.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

you mean, is it...wow ok no I don't get it...

I have to assume its a level 7 spell, and that the innate level defines that for a shifter, or perhaps the druid 7 does >_> i'd prefer not to boggle my mind with that one, i'm going to assume i'm correct either way. seven.

that is one reason I would go pure druid rather than shifter, can't for the life of me build well enough to get construct shape.

This helps.

For Fire Storm: It doesn't matter what level Shifters would get it, if they did. You have to memorize it as empowered before you shift to use it as metamagic - which druids can do, but not clerics.

Nwn 2 vault? ...Err. How is that helpful? It's an entirely different game, And you can't build a Nwn character in nwn2...

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NwVault handles both games and that's just an Excel spreadsheet he linked.

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The origin of storms.

I really don't get along with mircosoft apps else I would use it >_> don't have excel either.

you seriously don't know what the vault is svensk? click that link and look for 'pretty good character creator' =D thats what I use to test, though I do need -a- calculator that I can use if I try that idea (construct shape shifter)

out of interest what is the benefit of taking alot of shifter levels, rather than going pure druid say? I'm pretty sure shapechange and epic spells even the ground a bit compared to, use every feat for max of two epic shapes....(is how many I could get in testing, no dragon.)

To Glyph...
Epic forms, epic bonus feats, awesome-factor.

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Player of:
Leon R. Aritek ~ Warpriest of Helm
Bokart Gorstag ~ The friendly barbarian who's not so great at common.
Stass'et Trem'nys

30 levels of any class is substantially better than any shifter, the only reason to take the class is for the flavor, and being able to turn into a bunch of cool things is pretty nice flavor, thus why I've played them on every server I've played.

Yes. Let us all be Dev.Clerics and Paladin Sorcerers... Oh Joy, And behold the universality and difference this server would behold.

C'mon Xanrick . . if me and Glyph want some advise on shifters, We don't really want to get the advise to 'not' play a shifter.

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Tried it, it surely do bring up a list of old characters, but thats kinda it, no explanation on how to get those chars., no biggie I wont be playing them anyway.
And btw: why not go 11fig/9CoT preepic, that would postpone a feat to epic, dunno if it mess too much with the savings though.
btw2: cant find my old level-up mod, anyone got a nice one? (I use to like the one where you talk to a dragon to get free level)

Not really, he said you can't powerbuild a shifter and he's correct.

19 Shifter 10 Druid 1 Tumble

10 Shifter 14 DwD 6 Druid (Epic Damage Reduction, Risen Lord Shape, Exotic Focus, Scythe Proficiencies)

17 Shifter 12 Druid 1 Tumble

To name a few

Theres heaps of possibilities with the shifter class, but even with the shifter changes your character will be subpar in specialisation compared to any other class, because its specialisation is supposed to be its ability to be a stop gap or fill a role in any party.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I guess I wasn't being clear, I wasn't trying to discourage anyone from playing a shifter, but rather, simply pointing out the limitations of providing useful build advice for them. Truth be told there isn't much building to do, all the shapes are pre-configured to play a specific role, just pick the ones you want, get the necessary wisdom and shifter levels and then the rest is just fluff I'd say.

But despite this, I'll contribute some advice, all the same.

Splashing a third class is just a matter of taste, bard is a good candidate if you are forgoing melee capability with it's skill dumps, rogue is viable as well, though it loses discipline.

Things to keep in mind with spell casting shifters:

- You'll most likely want to take 11 to 13 druid levels to get some magic-related feats and to pick up the necessary metamagic level slots to augment your low damage output. Doing this will also boost your animal companion up a bit, which should help with leveling in pre-epics.

- Taking spell focuses isn't very efficient, you have to spend 2 feats to get a mere +2 DC bonus, seeing as all the relevant spell casters shapes come with the basic spell focus feats for their spells. Taking an epic spell focus is impossible without sinking 17 levels into druid, at which point you've locked yourself out of a lot of potential epic shapes.

- Taking spell penetration isn't a bad choice. Your options on lowering a target's SR are quite limited, plus you can actually take the epic version without the ability to cast level 9 spells.

- Your biggest shortfall acting as a caster is your inability to kill your targets and the lack of supporting summons. You can still grab animal empathy to help slightly there, but being unable to decently buff your animal hurts that option. You will not be able to solo effectively, but you'll serve the role of disabler almost as well as a true caster.

If you want to have a melee presence, take 8 to 10 fighter levels (7 pre epic in either case), focus on the weapon types of the shapes you want to use. Alternatively if you want to use unarmed shapes, monk is still a viable cross-class if you can make the rp work. The reason I separate melee and caster shifters is simple, it's not really possible to be very good at both.

In the melee role your constant problem is inadequate ab, even in a fully-melee focused shifter build you will have about the ab of a rogue, minus the sneak attack damage, minus the crippling strike, minus the dual-wield, minus the survivability, minus the ability to use scrolls, minus hide in plain sight in most situations.

Thus you most do everything you can to preserve your base ab, this is difficult since you're stuck taking two 3/4 base attack bonus classes, and worst, you are stuck losing 2 points right off the bat with 5 druid. And if you want to access the epic forms, you're stuck losing another 1 to 3 base ab. If you plan on mixing a third 3/4 base ab class, you'll really hose your ab up, thus I would avoid that unless you're foregoing melee ability altogether. Monk is the only possible exception, given the extra unarmed attacks, though your base ab will be pretty wimpy and remember weapon focus unarmed does does nothing for unarmed shapes.

At the end of the day, even a fully melee optimized shifter won't be able to dish out much hurt, and your ac is low by the time you reach epics, so soloing is painful, but hey risen lord tanks like a beast and you can be an asset for your group as long as you mind the spells that one-shot undead and your friends are willing to rez you periodically.

For melee shifters Undead shape is essential, you'll use risen lord 90% of the time once you get it, Outsider shape is best for casters and Construct isn't worth the big wisdom investment, although technically it does offer the best melee attacking shape in the form of iron golem, but the ab isn't *that* much higher and the lack of survivability limits its use in and out of parties. Oh and epic kobold is pretty nice, just make sure you avoid things that force you to make fortitude saves, you'll die real quick.

So that's my take on shifters, I'll try to be helpful if you have anymore questions, I don't want to come off as a downer, but I just don't want anyone to invest a lot of time into a character and end up disappointed. I still love the class myself, and like most the Amia changes, so I'm happy to support those who want to learn more about it.

That's what I'm doing. You lose 1 Fort and 1 Reflex, but bag an epic feat. Good trade.

its kool i'd rather not go through epic levels getting wis buffs for construct shape, I like my 30 druid build.

one thing I will say though, dev isn't a be all and end all, I seen someone doing 200+ damage without dev critting.

Standard x3 Weapon Masters (x4) will generally hit 200 damage regularly in the Abyss. My Dwarven Barb one hander can crit to 200 running IPA. I'm a sucker for the big numbers, so when I build a meleer I'm not satisfied unless his minimum crit damage by epic is 150+.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

It's slightly off topic but I just had to point out that shifters aren't even the really that great at being a jack-of-all trades, a decently build sorc with fighter levels can cast timestop, deal epic spell damage, disable spawns, fully buff a party and then cast tenser's transformation, put on full plate and have great ac, good ab and kill stuff with dev crit in melee.

Clerics can pull off similar tricks, and to a lesser extent so too can bards and druids.

The one unique thing that shifters can do is that risen lord can tank some epic areas that toss around tons of damage as well as death and necromancy effects. Oh and the rak can do a couple of neat tricks, and might be the only way to beat a shadow-dancing caster, but I have yet to test that.

Sorry for the derail, so to get us back on track, a couple of questions:

What can I expect to find for good darts and throwing axes, are there any? I've been thinking about trying a build that uses them. Are they valid targets for GMW?

There are some funky darts, but never seen a throwing axe that couldn't be crafted with the basic mythals. If you have the strength for it, the axes are better because they look gorgeous and deal a bit more damage.

And yush, GMW works on throwing weapons. You need to get the GMW page for your BoT as normal.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

from personal experience, yes, they do beat SD's at casting, even have more fricking hide skill -_-

um, to a lesser extent druids? I can't wait til I can show you how wrong that is.

as for throwing weapons, the monastary, and axes weight far too much to use sensibly use "darts" *cough throwing knives cough* or shiruken/ninja style discy things...

ed: a shadow dancing caster??? are you nuts? they have "spells" already, and are made for running around like a crazed person stabbing large things.